Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #684 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 684 Thursday, 1 June 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Posting etiquette Elephant SMOKE? Some Sort Of Observation A different perspective on nolstalgia A Fripp/Anderson blurb in Record Collector magazine Zappa Oh no, another person's impression of TCoL Andy's Snare Attack A few random thoughts Writing credits Bootlegs Again? TCOL vs. ProjeKct X Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment The Ying/Yang of taping Bootlegging Part 2 THE TENTH PLANET thoughts on the new stuff Well, since you asked..... Pat "The Beast" & Bill Bruford,Both AMAZING. Live performances ruined by audient activities... Arnie the Righteous Unapropiate behaviour King Crimson fan & ETer... TCoL: What I Believe TCoL: Track by Track TCOL if created by other artists? Frying Pan's origin and "changing sound perspective" Elephant Talk-The Band ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:07:59 +0100 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: Posting etiquette Hi folks At this time of frenetic ET activity, I'd like to take a moment to mention "posting etiquette". For the benefit of all, we have a few guidelines about the formats of posts to ET. And, sad to say, if a post doesn't conform to these guidelines, it won't appear. Sorry, but that's the deal. Here are the guidelines: 1. Your post must be addressed to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com. Posts to other addresses won't get through to ET. 2. Your post must, as a courtesy to ET readers, have a valid subject line -- not "RE: Elephant Talk #680" for example. 3. If you quote a previous ET post, it must be: > quoted like this. You don't have to use the ">" > character -- you could use ">>" or "*", maybe, > but ">" is preferred. This would be a big help to everyone. Why? Simply because free-form quoting, << like this, for example >> !*!*!*!*!* "or this" !*!*!*!*!* ................. or this ................ = or = this is (a) often ambiguous and (b) sometimes screws up our processing -- big time. 4. No flaming or unpleasantness or trading of insults. Life's too short. Take it to private email, please. You're welcome to swear, though. 5. Please format your post into bite-sized paragraphs, separated by blank lines. That makes your post much easier for eager ETers to read. And me. And don't forget -- I read everything. 6. Please use the Subject tags "NEWS: ", "GIG BIZ: " or "GIG REVIEW: ", as appropriate. 7. If you have a question about Crimson/Fripp lore, please check the FAQ at www.elephant-talk.com first. 8. Think about whether your post is most appropriate for ET, or the DGM Guestbook. So, just a few guidelines to help with smooth running and a happy life. If this appals you and you want an unmoderated, unedited, guidelines-free forum, then check out USENET News! :-) Best wishes to all... ...from your overworked, underpaid and yet strangely exhilarated Moderator, Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:28:57 -0500 (CDT) From: TheMincer at webtv dot net (Ric Wilson) Subject: Elephant SMOKE? Hello, and Fair thee well to all Crimsonites. WHY, Again, Why do people ask "Why is there NO SMOKING at King Crimson Gigs? Who enjoys having cigarette smoke in their eyes, nostrils,lungs, on their clothes? Approx. 80-90% of public events & buildings are SMOKE FREE now, thank God! The occasional Marijuana smoker still surfaces at most concerts I've recently attended, but at least the smoke serves a purpose(I know,controversy is knocking!) Oh I'll pay for that one...Better contact the Robinson Brothers, from the Black Crowes! Help Guys! Anyway,Adrian did work with Frank Zappa while Frank was weaning himself from cigarettes, and where you find Musicians, humans, etc.. you'll find someone who smokes, after all "nicotine is more addictive than Heroin", or at least I've read, and don't deny. But if I'm a Musician, singing in front center stage (or anywhere), and I have a say, that say is NO SMOKING. On another note, "ProzaKc Blues", and the topic of Adrian mentioning "ET" in the song, I'm sure Toby,and all the hard workers that contribute to publishing this, are VERY pleased...I know I would be! TCOL is a MASTERPIECE. Thanks for publishing "E.T." guys, the last few have been very,very, good.CONVERSATION,CRITICISM,CONTROVERSY,CHIT CHAT CHIT CHAT,It's only TALK. Peace, Love to ALL of You, Dead Hippie, Ric. http://community.webtv.net/TheMincer/TheStarlessAndBibleBlackPage/RicWilson. ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 00 22:50:10 EDT From: Chad Compolattaro Subject: Some Sort Of Observation I am a long time Crimson Fan A friend dragged me to a show in Feb "82 Never seen anything quite like it I have followed AB since his Sheik Yerbouti days Few can measure up to his feel for music and his insight into "Everyday Man". I feel like Ab is the "Legend Next Door" RF is incomparable I haven't loved it all, but I certainly have appreciated it There are moments on "The Great Deciever" that defy nature Pat Mastelotto and Trey Gunn The new guys Tough shoes to fill Sunday All Over The World I haven't heard TCOL yet I will It may, or may not, matter what I think I will remain a King Crimson fan Bruford Levin Upper Extremities! Cheers! CHad ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 00:31:37 -0400 From: "Timothy W Cox" Subject: A different perspective on nolstalgia Flaherty Michael wrote "2. Nothing will make a person old as fast as nostalgia will. What is past is past. Some of you, who I suspect are at least ten years younger than me, are sounding very old." If these individuals are indeed as young as you accuse them of, isn't it strange that they would prefer music which was so "old" in contrast to music of their own generation? It would seem that this attests to the quality of the music of that past period in comparison to music that is currently being produced. This surely is a compliment to the past formations of Crimson. And why would these premature ageing adolescents prefer the old material to TCOL? I suspect that there is a certain quality of sound missing from the present music that previously existed. Perhaps this is due to modern recording procedures or the physical studio structure which musicians choose to use currently. I don't imagine it has anything to do with a particular musicians talent, but perhaps their choice of tools to produce the sounds in a digital age. It would seem unfair to criticize an individual existing in the 1980's for listening to compositions of Fernando Sor in contrast to WHAM or RUN DMC because Sor was superior in his musical craft. Music has no age, only aural quality. Individuals understand the music that personally speaks to them because it possesses some physical presence that forces an emotional convulsion within. Does TCOL do this for you? I hope you write about it in a nostalgic manner in the future. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I merely felt this response held the merit for discussion within ET. TCOL is a good album, but it does not speak to me and others have had similar experiences. Yet like others I expect the live experience will allow us all to see things in a different light whether positive or negative. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:26:12 EDT From: PKANE69 at aol dot com Subject: A Fripp/Anderson blurb in Record Collector magazine The latest issue of Record Collector, May 2000, no. 249 Has a YES tours article & a separate Jon Anderson, Steve Howe interview. A brief transcript from Jon Anderson: Record Collector:... After the first 2 albums it was rumoured that Robert Fripp would join Yes. Was anyone else considered? Jon Anderson:....No, no, no, We wanted Steve Howe. Maybe Chris phoned Bob Fripp, but the only thing Bob ever said to me was, "If you're going to play the tambourine, Jon, can you play in time?" I've met Bob often & he always says, "When are you going to become a musician?" Record Collector:.... Your reply? Jon Anderson:...You're an old fart. On the good, bad, ugly debate pertaining the new Crimson CD.......It's great & yo Adrian if you happen to read this, love your "dig" on Elephant Talk in ProzaKc Blues ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:37:50 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Zappa I know you'd be surprised.... Confronted with all the recent Zappa-related topics in Elephant Talk I found myself grabbing Sheik Yerbouti this morning for driving to work. And yes, Adrian Belew is INDEED the greatest man in the King Crimson universe. Just to mention that. And yes, I take to Winston cigarettes. Markus Alexander Gnad a-rennennen-arennennen-arennennen-arennda a-rennennen-arennennen-arennda-rennda-raaah PS I found the word Crimspeak in the Great Deceiver scrapbook. Are there some examples of this language available? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:48:31 +0100 From: aal at aws dot co dot uk Subject: Oh no, another person's impression of TCoL Hello I finally took the time to wander out and buy TCoL and also treated myself to the gatefold edition of ITCOTKC (which is still available from MVC on London Bridge). I have listened to it twice, the first time from the luxury of the bathtub and according to accepted lore it will be an awful album, because my initial impressions were very favourable! I have listened to "The Roar of P4" several times without finding anything other than noise and the amount of comment on the V-drums left me rather dreading the prospect of TCoL. From the very first seconds of ProzaKc blues my fears were assuaged. I do feel it is slightly egotistic for posters to the newsletter to claim a namecheck in the song bearing in mind that Adrian Belew originally coined the name anyway but... To me this is a Heavy Metal KC album. It has been commented that there is no ballad on the album but there are parts of the title track which are fairly mellow (and other places) and it's not the first time there has been no true ballad on a KC album. Remember Red? Although Starless is probably the most beautiful piece of music Crimso have ever recorded, some of the instrumental sections (especially the climax) are incredibly heavy. I sometimes feel that I am the only subscriber in the history of et who is not a musician. Carelessly, I kept forgetting to hate the V-drums. I think that possibly too many people have been listening too much to musicians and too much to musical instruments and too little to the actual music. I would have listed BB as the best drummer I have ever heard/seen. I would not have listed PM as a great drummer because I have never heard HIM! My only experience of PM has been through Crimso and, as an audient, I have only heard the combination of PM/BB. I remember seeing KC at Shepherds Bush Empire with the double trio and at one point Adrian, Pat and Bill moved front of stage and performed a piece entirely on drums which was very enjoyable and IMHO it was one of many highlights of the night. Because it was a piece of music crafted by three musicians. Perhaps it is a shame that this will not happen this year at the Empire. Perhaps not. I have always liked the Scorpions (a German HM band). I would not say that their bass player, Francis Bucholz, was the greatest bass player in the world and indeed he seemed technically limited. But he played the right notes when they were appropriate and the right spaces when THEY were appropriate. I have seen other musicians disappearing up their own backsides to show how technically gifted they are. And producing nothing other than meaningless rambling, usually just to show how fast they are (if you can ramble fast, that may not make sense). Nowadays lots of people can play faster than Jimi Hendrix. But can they play slower than Billy Gibbons (ZZ Top)? If great musicians are playing bad music it's no better than bad musicians playing bad music. I just feel that you should listen more to the music created than the people/objects creating. Perhaps I can only do that because I can not create the music myself. I would prefer to see less personal abuse in et. Someone doesn't like something so presents their opinion as though it were gospel. By return others post flames which pour scorn on the first opinion in a like manner. Could we have just some restraint from the posters? One of the most perceptive posters I have seen in recent ets has been the person who reflected on the amount of people who thought that it was okay to post an initial impression if it was favourable, but too quick to post judgement if the initial impression was unfavourable (not a direct quote, forgive me). Something I have omitted from previous posts is a big THANK YOU to Toby and the team for the newsletter over the past couple of years while I have been subscribing. Cheers Andrew Lehva LONDON PS: There has been a new acronym creeping into et, this being "LOL". I've worked out IMO, IMHO and all the others but this one has me stumped. Could someone enlighten me? [ LOL means Laughing Out Loud -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 05:54:06 -0700 From: Lewis Southers Subject: Andy's Snare Attack This is what izyrp at odn dot de said >How about mentioning the great "Lizard" drummer Andy McCulloch here? OK, I have a question about the fine drummer, Andy McCulloch. Did he lose all of his drum set except for the snare drum on the way to the Lizard sessions or what? I don't mean this as a criticism, I just find it very odd that almost the entire album is played (quite deftly) on the snare drum. Is there a story behind this or was this just what he wanted to play? >Professor Nutbutter Don't fear tha worm!!! -Lewis Silence is the field of creative musical intelligence which dwells in the space between the notes, and holds them in place. -Robert Fripp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:56:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Cohen Subject: A few random thoughts * "Frakctured" is starting to grow on me a little, but it still seems a little bit like too much noodling for too little payoff. Time will tell. I can't wait to see it live, though! * I find it very funny that Fripp & co. wrote and recorded this song under the name "Larks' V" when the stylistic similarities to "Fractured" are (with hindsight anyway) quite marked. * Similarly, "Larks' IV" reminds me a lot more of "Red" or "Vrooom" (Red II)? than any of the previous "Larks". Listening to "TCOL" today, I started with "Frakctured" instead of "Prozakc" and found that I enjoyed "Frakctured" and "Larks' IV" a lot more than I did when I played the album start-to-finish. Odd that. Maybe it has something to do with ear fatigue, and the relative lack of dynamics from song to song. * I got "Heaven & Earth" yesterday in the mail. Now, *this* is a CD that really grabbed me from the very first track, and, now that I hear it, I'm a little surprised (and a touch disappointed) that Fripp & co. didn't try to incorporate more of the "techno" influences (last heard in P3 and P4) into the "real" Crimson album. After hearing the Projekcts, I was really expecting more "beats" like these on "TCOL". * Finally, the current bootlegging brouhaha in RF's diary sent me back to this paragraph, which I managed to miss the first time around: 23.36 The first show was violated somehow: I was making mistakes that I didn't need to make. The heart of the performance was dying. Then I knew: we were being bootlegged. Maybe it's just me, but *I* find this rather humorous, given that the bootlegger claimed to be posting sound samples from the *second* Sunday show. Is it too much for Fripp to just admit that he had a naff performance? I'd guess it's a pretty safe bet that all *four* performances were bootlegged, but this was the only one found to suffer in that regard... I don't want to downplay the seriousness of the bootlegging issue -- obviously it's one of the more important questions facing the ardent King Crimson fan -- but to simply state that a bad show was due to the presence of a person with a tape recorder seems a little simplistic to me. --Art ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:48:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Darryl Subject: Writing credits Hello ETer's, I have a question regarding the writing credits on RED. On my CD copy it says that "One More Red Nightmare" was written by 'Fripp,Wetton', but no Palmer-James. Is it just my copy?; it has the Virgin logo but is missing 'DEFINITIVE EDITION Remastered by Robert Fripp and Tony Arnold 1989'. It has 'EGCD 15' on it, and was printed in Holland. I know that Fripp wrote some of the lyrics to "The Great Deceiver" and that Wetton changed the lyrics to "Easy Money" at diffrent concerts, but who wrote the lyrics to "One More Red Nightmare"? Fripp and/or Wetton, or just Palmer-James uncredited? Just wondering, Darryl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:48:31 -0400 From: "Daniel J. Goodwin" Subject: Bootlegs Again? All I can think about is the fact that all of these PRO-BOOTLEGGERS seem like utterly senseless non-musicians. Perhaps it is an objective of the human ego, but I strongly agree with Mr. Colburn about the fact that when writing a piece of music, it is yours, without question. I speak from the viewpoint of a professional session musician who is hired to play guitar on major records. I am also in a band that is signed to a label. Your work is your work! Plain and simple. As others have said here as well, it is illegal to bootleg. The band has the artistic license with its own material to do as it wishes. It is really quite simple. Sort of like trying to use the formula for TIDE laundry detergent to get a patent on a new product. You cannot do that. Why? Because somebody else owns the rights to that work. By purchasing a record and seeing a performance, the artist is basically licensing the music to you momentarily, without any further right of passage. The law is simple, easy, and blatantly clear. By arguing that bootlegging is acceptable, you are not only proving that you are an idiot, but you are also saying that musicians do not have a right to decide the jurisdiction of the work that they have devoted their lives to. As musicians, we spend our lives breathing and sleeping music. We spend every waking moment trying to make a living from this. When criminals like bootleggers run rampant, our pocketbooks are flushed, but yours remain stable. How does this make any sense? It doesn't. God forbid if his holiness Robert Fripp (yuck yuck) says another derogatory thing about bootlegging. It would be a crime! What would you all do? If anyone would like to refute my comments, please keep them to yourself or email me. Don't clog this newsletter up with these senseless, childish rantings. It's like trying to legitimize incest or rape. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:26:58 -0500 From: Tim Read Subject: TCOL vs. ProjeKct X >From: Clive Backham >Subject: an ironiKc album >The thing that surprises me most about this album is that I was expecting >the ProjectX track to be my least favourite (because in general I prefer >composed to improvised Crimson). And yet, here is the only number that >*does* have some semblence of a lightness of touch. If they can produce >this when improvising, I can only conclude that the band made a conscious >decision to eliminate air & space in their compositions. What is the >purpose of that? Are they making some kind of statement? And if so, can >anyone enlighten me as to what this statement is? Well, I'm not sure, but here's my take. Official Crimson studio albums have generally been pretty lifeless -- the notable exception being VROOOM, but that seems to be TCOL's ProjeKct X disc. Thrak had a very compressed, dry sound. I remember being a bit disappointed that the big angry monster on VROOOM was gone. However, the live stuff ended up being quite good. On Broadway and the Mexico City concert still blow me away. So going back, I can listen to Thrak with new ears and it's not bad. (And again, it's not limited to this era. 30APP and Discipline were pretty dead, Beat is just about my favorite album period, so I can't hear anything but good stuff on it). I don't think this is any one person's fault -- probably more of just a way of recording/producing/whatever that makes it happen. Or, maybe we just don't want to like the new stuff. *grin* Not many bands can consistently top their previous efforts. ProjeKct X, being the collector's disc, probably had a lot less label expectation. Could KC put out PX as a KC album? Probably. Would it sell? Not sure. I think that this one has the sense of adventure that everyone likes. But, I think that the live albums will show that KC2K is pretty damn good live. That's always been the true test of KC, and I think the Club releases of 1972's material ended up giving the Islands band a better reputation. Hopefully forthcoming live discs will have the quality of On Broadway and not B'Boom. :) Anyway, too much from me. Crimly Yours, -Tim Read c716233 at showme dot missouri dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:36:14 EDT From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment Bob Pascarella wrote: >> Well..Arnie. I would think that the attendees of KC shows would (not must) at least be of pure intentions. It is not a secret that KC members do not appreciate bootlegging by the audience. You can rationalize your activities any way you like to make yourself feel better. But in the end..you have gone against the wishes of the band. And please don't compare your theft to the artists also recording the show. They OWN this music! All you purchased with your money was the privilege to witness the show ON THAT EVENING only. You didn't create any music..nor did you earn the right to preserve the music of that evening on tape. Your poor memory is your own problem and not a justification to ignore what has been asked of you prior to attending the show. >> If your a thief..then call yourself one. If you don't care how Mr. Fripp feels, then admit to this also. Just don't make embarrassing excuses for yourself. Glad to see my last post got so many impassioned responses. Rather than reply to them all individually, let me just say that I understand the concept of copyright and the idea that bootlegging is illegal. If that were the sum of Mr. Fripp's complaint I would let it lie. However, I object to gussying this basic premise up in philosophical guise and much claptrap about the musician/audient relationship, etc., etc. I myself have never "sullied" my concert experiences with recording a bootleg. Nonetheless, bootlegs exist and from time to time I become aware of them and when I deem it of sufficient interest have been known to trade for them. As for the concert experience, whatever's going through my mind is not the same as in anyone else's mind and it is ridiculous to attempt to prescribe some zone that we should all be in while attending a concert. It's not my intention to start a long dialogue, diatribe or duel. Thanks for everyone's interest in the topic. Arnie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:33:57 -0400 From: "Andrew Fignar Jr." Subject: The Ying/Yang of taping I know this subject is not the best. I feel I need to at least attempt to post something on the matter since I was partially responsible for Fripp's recent diary entry. The CGT reference was brought to attention by me. First taping and booting are 2 different beasts, and all, and once again I say ALL criticism has not seen this distinction. Many tapers, probably most do not want to boot KC shows. They want to tape them not for profit. Bootlegging and buying boots are not the purpose of 99.9% of tapers. In the last issue of ET, I reject all the criticism as all of it failed to see any difference. So as far as I'm concerned you don't know what your talking about. Someone mentioned the odd group like the Dead allowing taping, well this shows me that this critic has no idea of the hundreds of bands that allow taping, such an uniformed statement is to be taken as such. What the tapers want is Fripp to allow recording, not allow bootlegging, bootleggers are scum sucking only care about themselves people, who tapers hate as they give them a bad name. the tapers have to take all the crap from these few individuals who dirty our water. I used to be a taper, I retired as I can't afford the equipment anymore, but feel since I taped for so long I can speak for tapers. As far as stealing, I agree it is, I for one quit, as I don't want to steal anything. it was more than a financial decision, I do not want to sneak around anymore. I don't want to steal anymore. I don't even cheat on my taxes, not one penny. When taping one does sacrifice the experience, so my plea is to allow taping. I feel it will stop bootleggers. Plus if allowed the tapers too, can relax and enjoy the show. No matter what I say, or anybody says all shows will be taped. I don't think one could stop it. I heard something about Fripp giving out recordings of this tour at the shows. He seems to want to accommodate all, I like this idea, and he can profit from it. I respect Robert's view, he has tried to please all with the club releases and such. They are great, by far my favorite are the club releases. But none of this will stop the taping, no matter how much you yell at them. So I say allow taping and let's end this issue! Collectors will still want the club releases, it will not hurt business, it will if anything expand it. The Dead are all millionaires, marketing made that so, and taping was a marketing tool that made them what they are today. the Dead Heads are all still there buying their asses off. I would like to thank Robert for listening to me, it is clear he read my posts since he quoted from them! We can agree to disagree, no problem. I want to do all I can to please the band, I just wish they felt that way about me. I'm sorry but I don't see how the band would lose anything, only gain in my opinion by allowing taping. Instead of tapers interfering with the show, make them part of it. To me this is the next logical step, if you can't beat them (and you can't!) join them. All the Nashville shows are on disc already, I have seen offers( for trade, not for sale). Stop beating your head against the wall! I and other tapers will make it out mission to stop all bootlegging as I define the term, well I already do this. If I see unauthorized recordings for sale, I will inform your organization of who. I do this for Zappa recordings already. I kill auctions on E-bay of this bull, it is the least I can do! I think the track record of the Dead, and SCI, and others who allow taping clearly show that it has made them money by attracting more fans, and getting the music out to people. The radio stations don't do this anymore. All financial arguments against taping IMHO have no basis in fact, the fact is it makes money for the band. You can't see the forest for the trees brother. I want to spend my time and money on KC, but I would rather support bands that allow taping. Buying the catalog is a prerequisite to owning any tapes, this is a given. We have our own etiquette, and I'm tired of seeing it trashed by lies about what tapers are about. Your best fans are tapers, or should I say they are the best fans to have. The bands that allow taping I'm sure would tell you the same thing. Why don't you ask? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:39:19 -0400 From: "Hammill, Randall -ND" Subject: Bootlegging Part 2 It is nice to see that there are others out there that have a similar point of view. Several of the posts mirrored my thoughts. However, I must clarify something - I said that I felt that it would probably be OK to burn a CD of the Mexico City show, or for that matter any of the forthcoming BootlegTV shows for a friend who does not have a CD-R. First of all, if the show is only obtainable via pay-per-view (as BootlegTV will probably be), then I think that each person who wants a copy should purchase the event. The basic concept is this: 1. The artist is able to make a profit from any sale of their work. 2. Somebody unauthorized (like a bootlegger/pirate) does not profit from the sale of their work. Store owners are authorized to sell, but not manufacture CDs. If you have a CD that you wish to sell, then you can sell it for a profit. What you cannot do is make a copy and sell the copy for a profit. I have seen bootlegs that claim to have set aside earnings for the artists. This still does not matter because they are not authorized to manufacture the CD. Perhaps Robert or somebody at DGM will comment on this. The reason I bring this up is because I have had several requests to make copies of the Mexico City show for them since my last post. As I stated before - I do not have a problem making copies for a friend. However, I don't know these people. A friendship is something that develops over time. Although I am happy to be friendly, and hope that someday I may become true friends to the people that I meet (and fellow fans), I do not feel comfortable making copies for people I don't know. Not for trade, not for money. So, no offense intended, but please don't ask. For those who downloaded the show and want to know how to put it on CD, Toby already has links to learn how to do that. [ No, I don't. -- Toby ] I used a program called Total Recorder (It's $12.95 www.totalrecorder.com ) that not only let me convert the file but also lets you split the recording into individual tracks. 1 line review on TCoL - Love it! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Basile Subject: THE TENTH PLANET Hi, The CD, TENTH PLANET by C.Jowett and TENTH PLANET,makes me want for the days of free form radio. How many other awesome recordings and groups are out there? So we hear bye, bye ,bye on the radio hourly. Why? TENTH PLANET CD is exceptional!Very creative and a distinctive sound! It upsets me that bands like this and TEN SECONDS,get very little air. In Pittsburgh we have a great blues guitarist Glen Pavone(& the Cyclones). He is amazing.I guess sometimes GOD does hide. I heard of both THE TENTH PLANET and TEN SECONDS on ET, so keep on ETing. And in Pittsburgh be sure you go Pavoning! Warmly, Basile By The Three Rivers were Crimson is more than welcomed! http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:00:01 -0400 From: "Stack, Mike" Subject: thoughts on the new stuff Hey folks, long time no talk. I've watched this list change over the years, and I have to say, I've never seen it as agressive as it has been in recent days. Still, maybe I'm just mellowing out in my old age, but I thought I'd share my thoughts on many things recently Crimson. When I joined ET, _THRAK_ had been out for only a few months, and my perspectives then were well known. I experienced Crimson live (something I found extraordinarily memorable) four times, and heard "21st Century Schizoid Man" performed twice. Something occured to me, listening to the Mexico City show-- it's nice that Fripp has made it so easy for many of us to get ahold of various shows, with _B'boom_, _Live_on_Broadway_, and now the Mexico CIty live stuff, we get a good snapshot of the double trio evolving. I saw Crimson a few days before the Broadway show and when they came through with HORDE festival in '96, so I saw a good deal of this evolution as well. And I have some thoughts on the band, and the new material. It seems to me that the last incarnation of Crimson, as the double trio, seems to have exhausted the past in some ways. They were the first unit to play material from all the eras of Crimson, and they did a stellar job with it, IMHO. So Fripp takes the band that did it all and splinters with them, and what we got were four smaller groups, the ProjeKcts. I never really shared my opinion on them much, but I was really pleased with the way the ProjeKcts performed. I mean, it is truly a wonderful way to reach for new material by just improvising in front of an audience. But in a sense, this distanced Crimso from the past quite a bit-- the previous material was rarely debuted in front of a crowd-- only the '69 and '73 bands did this a lot. At least I think so, I may be wrong here. Nonetheless, neither improvised for the entire night of performance, and the ProjeKcts didn't either, but they came really close to that. I think what we had was a new way of looking at Crimson music. Bruford and Levin leaving only strenghtened that-- no criticism to either, I think they're both wonderful musicians, but both were ties to the past. So the new band emerges. I found ProjeKct X to be similar to P2 and P3 (no surprise, as it IS P2 and P3) in vein. But TCoL-- ahh, this was a work of pure Crimso magic to my ears. This is it-- experimentation, innovation, this is the bread and butter of Crimson. Sure, it's really different from the previous work, but what Crimson album wasn't? And certainly, the most successful albums they did (IMHO ItCotCK, LTiA, _Discipline_, and _THRAK_) were very much different from previous work. I don't see TCoL as much different. Personally, I lvoed it. But then again, that's just me. mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:15:29 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Well, since you asked..... (Daniel Pepper wrote) "I have one question for u...if i told u that Oyster Soup, Aspic 4, and Frakctured were by an unsigned band called hgdsfltuihejkfa, what would u say about the songs?" I have one answer for you.... YES I would like them. For a start, when regarding FraKCtured and Lark's 4, Which other band BESIDES Crimson do they have any hope of sounding like? If they were an unsigned band called "hgdsfltuihejkfa" I would think, "My God, that's the most amazing imitation of King Crimson I've EVER heard!" "The World's My..is simply an idiotic song. Belew's random word association game was cool with "neurotica" and "Sex sleep eat drink dream", but its getting old..i don't want to offend anyone, but King Crimson is a band that is supposed to produce new sounds, melodies and rhythms and this album doesn't do that at all." Boy, for not wanting to offend anyone, you sure are being pretty offensive calling it an "idiotic" song and all! (How can the song be idiotic without one inferring that the writers/players of the song are idiots?) For one thing, Neurotica really doesn't use word association (other than maybe "hammer head hand in hand with a mandril") Its supposed to be more along the lines of beat poetry and tells a story. Also, if there's nothing on this album that appears to you to be "new sounds, melodies and rhythms" I would suggest you're not listening attentively enough. "I believe that FraKctured is one of the WORST KC songs ever!..allow me to explain my opinion: the song sounds like a metallic version (not metallicA!) TCoL..i've listened to it several times and have come to the conclusion that it is a waste of nine minutes." I'm still waiting for you to "explain your opinion." :-) We're supposed to think that because to you it sounds like a "metallic version," that it is "one of the WORST KC songs ever," and "a waste of nine minutes?" Where's the explanation? Its the lack of logical intelligent explanations of your opinions that make your opinions offensive. "I love KC, but it is my sincere opinion that this song and Oyster Soup are poor tunes." You're always entitled to your opinion, even if you can't explain it decently:-) "Aspic sounds like heavy metal." And uh, Lark's 2 sounds like "N Synch?" "To all those who like the songs i just complained about..I have one question for u...if i told u that Oyster Soup, Aspic 4, and Frakctured were by an unsigned band called hgdsfltuihejkfa, what would u say about the songs? would u give them the thumbs up or thumbs down?" THUMBS UP! "Think about it..do not convince yourself that u love a song just because it has KC's name on it!" Do NOT convince yourself that if someone doesn't agree with your opinions that the rest of us are stupid enough to merely like it due to the name on the cover! "thak u and feel free to agree or disagree=)" THAK U 2! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:55:00 -0500 (CDT) From: TheMincer at webtv dot net (Ric Wilson) Subject: Pat "The Beast" & Bill Bruford,Both AMAZING. Hello, and fond greetings... Most of us realize this (TCOL) is the first Crimson works that Bill Bruford has NOT been associated with since he joined King Crimson in 1972. But, As incredible as he is,(My favorite Drummer,Percussionist,Batterie Specialist,etc...) it was his decision to work with HIS Band. I respect that. I also respect Pat Mastellotto, for his ability, and Professionalism in a GIANT task. No, I'm not as familiar with his past work, but his work with Crimson and The ProjeKcts is amazing! Show him some respect, He is a Drummer in a Band with an INCREDIBLE HISTORY! If for no other reason, I'm wishing him well. There are "good " drummers, and "Incredible" drummers, King Crimson utilizes only the latter...Always have. Same for all their lineup. In the meantime, Bill's still out there, with "The same White dinner Jacket that brought you Lark's Tongues in Aspic"...Bruford LIVES! Peace & Stuff Dead Hippie, Ric. http://community.webtv.net/TheMincer/TheStarlessAndBibleBlackPage/RicWilson. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:18:07 -0500 From: Todd Madson Subject: Live performances ruined by audient activities... I can use a very specific example of how an audience member can ruin a concert, and how surreptitious recording can actually damage those the recorder had hoped to "help." My own band was playing a gig at a local venue that, frankly, was a dive. Some of the material we were playing was rather demanding, but for the most part we were in mid-set when an unusual patron arrived with an unusual prop. Before that, it felt like a good show to us...we had a nearly full house (250+) and the mood felt light. In walked Hell boy, whoever he might be. The prop was a two foot long, plastic horn that he'd brought with him from a local football game. He was stinking drunk, as well. The individual in question decided to use the opportunity to bleat, hoot, screech and otherwise badly impersonate a jazz trumpet player. At times he spoke loudly into the horn as we were playing. Sometimes yelling. The mood plummeted like a fallen sparrow. As this went on, we, on stage were in disbelief. Where was the bouncer? We never found out. Why was this permitted to go on? Indeed, why we didn't stop our set and demand surrender of this thing I'll never know. I believe the individual was physically too large to stop, although we should have before the damage was done. We got more nervous, stiff as boards actually and our playing gradually sped up to the point of stupidity. We had no idea how to handle this dolt and he was playing us like a violin. What does this have to do with bootlegging and the harm it can inflict? What made it worse is that this show was being recorded unbeknownst to us and I actually have in my possession a copy of the recording I obtained later. It was horrible for the paying audience (of which some complained to us about this person making the disruption). It also was horrible for us, realizing that not only was our gig shat upon, but it was documented for posterity. And what made it worse, is that this individual contributed directly to the dissolution of a band that had been working for close to seven years by his actions. Both the horn tooter and the recorder. So, while it may seem that recording a show is a harmless activity that won't hurt anyone, there are actual people behind those shiny instruments and in the case of Crimson, I feel sorry for them since they have much more public exposure (and probably more experience with this kind of intrusive idiocy). And since the latest bootlegs seem to make it to E-bay, I can just see the horn tooting evidence showing up as "band humiliation 101" in the humor category. I hope this never happens to any of you musicians out there. We now return your digression to King Crimson content. Tcol is excellent! -Todd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:31:06 EDT From: Ctao at aol dot com Subject: Arnie the Righteous Still, the ignorance continues regarding KC's anti-bootlegging stance. This from Arnie Schulberg: "First of all, not every concert is going to be available and maybe, just maybe, you want an aural souvenir that commemorates an event you attended. " Aural souvenir? Try your memory - it worked for milennia (even better when excercised!). "Must all who attend a concert be of pure mind and spirit, participatory audients? We all have our own reasons for attending and enjoying the show. Some may want to have more than their memory to rely on for re-experiencing it." To the first question, no-siree! I don't think Fripp and co. are that allergic to income! What they do ask - demand, actually- is that those with tickets follow the rules, as clearly printed on your ticket stub as well as prominently displayed at the venue. Regarding "re-experiencing" a show, does a bootleg enable such a thing? Could it actually do violence to the memory of the real experience? "By the way, how does Fripp draw the distinction that it's okay for the band to tape the show but not the audience members? Isn't that as disruptive of the experience of the moment? ". If RF decides to pee in his own punchbowl, does that give you the right? Is it conceivable that the band has a better shot at reconstructing the show, with multitracks, good mics, gates, compressors, etc.? Is it conceivable that they would prefer to control this representation? Regarding the "disruptiveness" of the band's own recording efforts, is that for you to decide? It seems to me that your feelings on the issue are moot, and that your ability to make such distinctions is highly questionable given the rest of your "points". (BTW, RF has quite recently provided an example of his ESP-like sensitivity to bootleggers, if you check out his diary). Disrespecting one of the two caveats required of you as KC audient is one thing, but having the brass to post so piously about your "rights" is really beyond the pale. Even for a knucklehead. CD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:41:13 EDT From: "Peter Conrad" Subject: Unapropiate behaviour King Crimson fan & ETer... >Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:06:53 CEST >From: "Macahan The Unifaun" >Subject: Pieces of my puzzle... (aka ridicously long) >When looking behind me to see the crowd of listeners/audients, I could >tell that they were rocked by KC. It wasnt a bunch of 30-45 year old cold, >intellectual overclass men with glasses, rulers, and a Hawkings book under >the arm, standing still and counting the beats and analysing the chord >structures that I saw. ((I hope that in the future you express yourself better about your elders.)) >. During ProzaKc Blues I simply couldnt resist plugging this lovely, >stormy and always interesting forum by shouting "ELEPHANT TALK" just when >Belew was pausing a second after "youve been reading to much". Man, I am >looking forward to hear the bootlegtv.com recording and see if its heard >properly. Belew heard it, it seamed, and if he did, he took it with the >irony I thought he would. ((So, ruining their performance of Prozakc Blues is your idea of fun...)) >Anyway, after the show, they interviewed me and my brother outside the >venue. It was great fun, and I cant help laughing out loud, when I >think of my brothers remark that "after Beat, I lost Thrak of them". I found >it utterly funny, but the twist seamed to pass the bootlegtv crew by. ((I hope they post the concert so we can see how cool you look!!)) >He (Fripp) was quite concentrated on playing and communicating with the >other band members during the show, but after it he looked out over the >crowd to see what kinds of people we were, I guess. In a desperate attempt >to catch his attention I then instinctively jumped and waved a bit. I got >the feeling he saw it in the corner of an eye, and avoided me, thinking it >was inappropriate behaviour. Well, what had >I expected ;) ((Thank God you realized yourself that is no way to behave at a KC Concert)) >Ah,Im a naive fan I guess ((I will not mention what kind of fan you are, only that no band in the world needs fans like that. )) ((By the way shorter postings are appreciated)) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:59:14 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: TCoL: What I Believe Well, I've finally been through TCoL a couple of times, and I have to say, I simply cannot abide the thing! I mean, there isn't a flute or mellatron in sight. And for me, it just aint Crimson without Greg Lake... A famous and prolific author (I wish I could remember who) was once asked how he felt about what Hollywood had done to his books. "Why, they've done nothing at all to my books, " he answered, making a sweeping gesture toward his bookcase. "They're right over there." By my count, I have 14 full cd's of King Crimson (excluding ProjeKCts) featuring Tony Levin and Bill Bruford, with more on the way via the Collector's Club. Last time I checked, these discs were still (I am now gesturing toward the cd storage unit) "right over there." Get my drift? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:05:44 -0700 From: "Larry Terrano" Subject: TCoL: Track by Track Hello all, Having been in and out of the Crimso family since purchasing "In the Court..." in '69 I would like to offer my initial impressions of "tCoL": ProsaKac Blues Messrs. Fripp, Belew, Gunn and Mastelotto beating the hell out of altered (verily) blues changes. The rhythm section is stomping over everything it can see. Love the vocal enhancement. The ConstruKction of Light Unbelievably complicated time changes yet rolls along like a river. Beautiful. Adrian's "word association" part is really nice. Discipline era guitaring. Into the Frying Pan Sizzles, cooks, hot. FracKtured Discipline era guitars to begin the piece. Orchestral in its scope. When the distortion effects kick in and Robert, Ade and Trey start picking out notes faster than I can listen, I am just amazed at the execution of it all. Oyster Soup Crawling, snakelike groove throughout. Lark's - Part IV "Get out of my way or I'll run right over you in this steamroller!" Dissonant harmonies. This is, indeed, Part IV. Transforms into... Coda: I Have A Dream Descends note by note into the chaos of existence. "Social commentary" remarked a friend. The Grand Finale indeed. Well, there it is. I consider this effort an improvement over Thrak. But, Thrak was an improvement over just about anything else released that year by anybody. I did see Crimso at the Greek Theatre in Los Angeles during the Thrak tour and the live performance of it and some older material was, of course, incredible. Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:09:23 -0500 From: Todd Madson Subject: TCOL if created by other artists? Daniel Pepper asked if I had heard tracks such as FracKtured and Larks IV, but released under another name would I like them as much? My answer: YES. In an era where namby pamby whitewashed sugar pop and urban vanilla are the flavors of the day, it's immensely refreshing to hear a roaring wave of controlled power that is immediately recognizable as rock music. When was the last time you heard a rock album that goes for the jugular like this one? For me it would be Happy Family's "Toscco" a few years back. And before that? I can't recall. Actual incident: I'm at a stop light in my town. I've got Lark's IV turned up with the window rolled down. Another car pulls up with a guy at the wheel and and girl at the passenger window, they can't help but hear it.... Girl: what's that music? Me: King Crimson! Girl: that stuff rocks! -t ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:06:03 +0200 From: maxophone at tiscalinet dot it Subject: Frying Pan's origin and "changing sound perspective" oh wow, after repeated listenings TCOL is burning high flames. Does anyone know why Tony Levin isn't credited among the authors of "Into the frying pan" ? I wonder so 'cause its instrumental main theme is a clear derivation from "ProjeKction" in the ProjeKct Four album West Coast Live (that was written by Fripp-Gunn-Levin-Mastellotto). One suggestion to catch in a clearer way all the devilish percussion effects sometime buried in the mix : try to listen TCOL on a CDRom player on computer, through a sound module like Creative Blaster with 3D Stereo Enhancement switched on connected to high pooooower speakers (or headphones). It will separate more one instrument from the others, giving deeper presence to treble and background sounds ; it helps a lot to discover new details in the busy polyrhytms of "Oyster", "ProzaKc" "FraKctured" and "Larks" Bye MAX from Italy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:25:33 -0600 From: Matt McCaffree Subject: Elephant Talk-The Band Let's say there was a band. And in this band was Trey Gunn, Pat Mastelotto, Adrian Belew and Robert Fripp. And this band wasn't called King Crimson. Instead, it's name was. . . oh, I don't know. . . how about "Elephant Talk." And let's say this band released "The ConstruKction of Light." Would those of you that hate it still hate it? ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #684 ********************************