Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #683 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 683 Wednesday, 31 May 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Tony Levin Radio Interview questions, questions, questions CAT'S FOOT IRON CLAW and TRACK EIGHT Questions OPPOSITION DE PHASE playlists of May 2000 What the hell, an ironiKc album The New Album Bootlegging Boots, Smoking, Discipline re:Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment RE:Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment KC stage setup Bits and Bobs Re: Mastellato/Bruford Re: Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment Re: Controversy..Criticism..It's only Music... live vocals Andy McCulloch fripp and monty python bootleg your self? Pat and Trey Dreambumps i bought it~* All About Gregg Bendian ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:49:46 -0400 From: Jeff Towne Subject: NEWS: Tony Levin Radio Interview more info at http://www.echoes.org Friday June 2, Sunday June 4, Sunday June 11 TONY LEVIN: BOTTOMS UP Tony Levin is a bass player's bassist. His list of credits stretches for pages and includes Joan Armatrading and Peter Gabriel in addition to being a member of King Crimson. Tony recently put out a solo album called WATERS OF EDEN (Narada) that posits the idea of bass as a lead instrument. We talk with Tony and members of his band, including Larry "Synergy" Fast. Jeff Towne Co-Producer, Echoes jefft at echoes dot org http://www.echoes.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:00:27 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: questions, questions, questions Rave up! 1) Don Cooper wrote: I love that KC sense of humor! It's a funny as Robert's quote on the front page of http://www.elephant-talk.com Well, there we have it => Question: Where does this Robert's line come from? 2) And yet another ET idea: Anniversary chatroom for ETers (every 25th issue or so)!!!!!!! 3) Anybody got the lyrics for the Bears track on Coming Attractions? Thanks I know I'm asking too many questions (and I know people who ask too much aren't welcome anywhere in the world but maybe, ET is some exception) [ No, I don't think ET is any kind of exception in any regard. Cheers -- Toby ] Markus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:46:25 +0200 From: Stephane Berland Subject: CAT'S FOOT IRON CLAW and TRACK EIGHT Hi there, in these times of reviewing TCoL and Projeckt X (sorry, I just received them yesterday and couldn't listen to them), I've got a somewhat special request about Bill Bruford's 'If Summer Had Its Ghosts'... I love this record BUT, one of the numerous cats I live with decided to play with my CD and disabled TRACK 8 with his Foot and Iron Claws. It's become completely unlistenable with any CD player I could try it on. The point is : could somebody send me a .mp3 file of this single track so that I can listen to the entire record again ? My bank account is definitely not healthy enough for me to buy the whole CD a second time. Thanks for your help and all apologies for my english. By the way, I still love the cat. He's alive and well. I just put my CDs in closed cupboards these days. Except for TCoL right now : I'm going to sit down and listen to it. Call me lucky. Cheers, -- Stephane Limours, France sberland at infoflash dot fr ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:48:13 +0400 From: "/IAAEIEO eAIOIEAEEE" Subject: Questions Dear ETers! I live in Russia so I am not absolutely proficient in English. For my book "The Russificated King Crimson" and for my Russian language Internet page "Indoorgames" ("Links Page 1" of "ET" or http://www.indoorgames.hotmail.ru) I need the following information: 1. What is the meaning of the words "Groon" and "ProzaKc"? 2. Where to find or how to receive the lyrics of "The ConstruKction of Light"? [ Replies by private email only, please. -- Toby ] Very truly yours Vladimir Kalnitsky vlad_kalnitsky at mail dot ru ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:25:13 +0200 From: "Sebastien PETIT" Subject: OPPOSITION DE PHASE playlists of May 2000 Hello ! Here are the last playlists of ODP ! If artists are unknown for you...ask me ! Sebastien Petit (petit dot sebastien at online dot fr) OPPOSITION DE PHASE, An avant-prog and creative new musics radio show. Europe: http://petit.sebastien.free.fr/menu.html World: http://www.multimania.com/sleeprev/menu.html Professional mails at: RCV/ OPPOSITION DE PHASE 41 bvd Vauban 59046 LILLE cedex **************************************************** En prevision: - News from Cuneiform: Doctor Nerve, Forever Einstein, 5UUs, Volapuk (waiting for promo) - News from 7th records: Korusz (waiting for promo) - Ozric Tentacles (waiting for promo) - News from Potlatch: Krystoff K Roll/ Xavier Charles - Gulab Jamun - Spec. Austro-hongroise Encore...Krakatoa, Hellebore, Projekct X... 26/5/00: Nuno Rebelo: ? (Sabado 2/Minimal Show, Rer, ?) Magma: Wurdah Itah -extract- (Wurdah Itah, 7th records, 1974) Triple Zero: Part III Pour produire un sentiment de chaleur sou sla tete du defunt (Crypto Snesus, Gazul/Musea, 2000) Projekct X: Hat in the middle (Heaven and Earth, DGM, 2000) Charles Hayward: Accidents + emergencies (Near+Far -Live in Japan vol III, Locus Solus Recommended,1999) Charles Hayward: ? (Survive the gesture, Ink records, ?) Thinking Plague: Run Amok (In this life, Rer, 1989) Suzanne Lewis: Five shades of white (Suzanne Lewis, Sedimental, 1999) 18/5/00: "This is Charles Hayward" This Heat: 24 track loop (This Heat, ?, 78) Charles Hayward: Eye was ear (Near+Far - Live in Japan vol3, Locus Solus Recommended, 1999) Quiet Sun: Trumpets with motherhood (Mainstream, Expression, 1999) Heiner Goebbels: ? (Shadow, Landscape with argonauts, ECM, 1993) Percy Howard: Trastevere (Incidental seductions, Materiali Sonori, 2000) Charles Hayward: Crisis on earth 3 -extract- (Double Agent(s) - Live in Japan vol2, Locus Solus Recommended, 1999) This Heat: The fall of Saigon (This Heat, ?, 78) 11/5/00: King Crimson: the world's my oyster soup kitchen wax museum (The construkction of light, DGM/ Virgin, 2000) Quiet Sun: Bargain classics (Mainstream, Expression, 75/1999) Hellebore: Warme wasser mit grass (Il y a des jours, Gazul, 85/2000) Shub Niggurath: Cabine 67 (Les morts vont vite, Gazul, 86/97) Triple Zero: Irruption (Crypto Sensus, Gazul, 2000) Eric Cordier / JL Guionnet: Spire (Tore, Shamabala, 2000) Triple Zero: La balncement cathartique (Crypto Sensus, Gazul, 2000) 4/5/00: "Frith last crimes" Fred Frith/ Massacre: I'm still here and i know what time it is (Speechless, RecRec, 81) Fred Frith / Ensemble Modern: Traffic III/ Traffic I (Traffic continues, Winter & WInter, 2000) Chris Cutler & Fred Frith: Act 2 Scenes I-II-III (2 Gentlemen in Verona, Rer, 2000) Death Ambient: Bone Collector (Synaethesia, Tzadik, 1999) Fred Frith/ Ensemble Modern: A good top tongue...Adag D (Traffic continues, Winter & Winter, 2000) Fred Frith: Jahresringe/ Firewood -Esslingen (Graphic Scores, I Dsichi Di Angelica, 1999) Science Group: ENgineering (A mere coincidence, rer, 1999) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 06:13:06 -0700 (PDT) From: alex mccune Subject: What the hell, Hello, This being my first tentative posting to ET makes me feel as though I should keep my mouth shut for fear of saying the wrong thing, but what the hell. Firstly, its been good to hear the positive reviews of the shows in Copenhagen, it is safe to say that crimson could never be a let down as far as their live performances are concerned. I am looking forward to attending another Crimson show. I was also looking forward to the new album but to date It has not touched me, this may take time but I just don't think the material is as strong as previous recordings,and I will not mention the drum sounds!! Oyster soup is an absolute gem and frying pan hurts real good but the rest of the album seems dry and lacking in dynamics. Perhaps I have come to this conclusion because of the anticipation generated by the projekcts which was quite honestly mind blowing in places. This will not be of detriment to the live performances as the thing that Crimson do best is performing live and pushing the material to other limits, see you at Shepherds Bush. cheers. Alex ps, Has anyone heard the recent Arto Lindsay album "Prize" (as they say in Belfast "it's a cracker") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:28:37 +0100 From: Clive Backham Subject: an ironiKc album Fripp has stated that, in producing TCoL, he "allowed himself" to use influences from all previous incarnations of Crimson. This is apparently in marked contrast to previous albums, where he consciously forbade himself to quote from some earlier stylistic themes. Given this, I find it hugely ironic that TCoL seems to be less stylistically varied than any previous Crimson album. There may well be some themes that bear a striking resemblence to past works, but they are all wrapped up in relentless, in-your-face packaging. Where is the air, the lightness of touch, for which Crimson is famous? Where is the space within which the music may breathe? The thing that surprises me most about this album is that I was expecting the ProjectX track to be my least favourite (because in general I prefer composed to improvised Crimson). And yet, here is the only number that *does* have some semblence of a lightness of touch. If they can produce this when improvising, I can only conclude that the band made a conscious decision to eliminate air & space in their compositions. What is the purpose of that? Are they making some kind of statement? And if so, can anyone enlighten me as to what this statement is? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:43:36 -0700 From: proclaimation at juno dot com Subject: The New Album I, too, have listened to the new album. When I first listened to it, it was great (I even have the Crimson postcard on my computer that plays 43 secs of "Frying Pan" and gives tour dates) but, after several listening, this album has faded rapidly. All their other albums made me play them again and again but this one makes me turn it off. I do like certain tunes like "Frying Pan" but this album lacks something. I don't know why everybody liked "THRAK"- except for "Dinosaur", the album was RED meets THE BEATLES. The Crimson of the 90's is typical of this era - Nostalgic. Sadly, Crimson was never meant to be this and Fripp should be reminded of this. Also- Pat's drums sound great to me. He's not BB but Fripp said it best: You don't find someone better, only someone different. Hope their live shows is better than the album. I WOULD like to note: LIVE IN MEXICO CITY is EXCELLENT! Should have released it as THRAK! [ Folks, you might be surprised to see posts about bootlegging appearing again, since we've done it to death in ET over the years. I don't want a massive bootlegging thread to start again, but I think it's relevant right now in the light of RF's current Diary postings. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:47:37 -0400 From: "Hammill, Randall -ND" Subject: Bootlegging There has been - and I am sure there will be - plenty of opinions on the matter of bootlegging. I have my own (mixed) feelings about bootlegging, but quite frankly I feel that they are irrelevant for the following reasons: Music and its performance are copyrightable (at least in the US) and therefore are owned entirely by those owning the copyright. Any reproduction and recording is therefore illegal without the consent of the copyright owner(s). Whether this is right or not does not make any difference. Whether you get caught or not does not make any difference. People frequently reference bands like Phish, the Grateful Dead and other tape-friendly bands when justifying their bootlegging. This too is irrelevant because these bands have explicitly given their consent (and in most cases indicated their right to revoke it). However, the reason I choose not to bootleg, or purchase King Crimson/Robert Fripp and related bootlegs is simple; Robert has specifically requested that we do not bootleg or support the bootleg industry. I do not know Robert Fripp personally. I have never met him. I hope to one day meet him, and I hope to be able to attend a Guitar Craft course in the future. I believe in treating others like a friend. If a friend asks me not to do something then I will most likely respect their wishes. In this case I have no legitimate objection, so I will respect his wishes. I also believe that Robert has made every effort to meet our demands. Remember that any request that we make is just a request, and the person receiving that request will respond based on their own beliefs. Even if these beliefs are incorrect they have that right. Robert has released numerous CDs of archive material, and has essentially said that he will release in some form or another every King Crimson performance. In addition to the BootlegTV releases he has also stated that CD's will be available. He has even stated (in fact, encouraged) that you may make a copy on CD for yourself of any of the BootlegTV recordings. I did this for the Mexico City concert so I can listen to it on a regular CD player. I also feel that this would extend to burning a copy for your friend who does not have a CD-R, as long as you are not profiting. I am sure that there will be plenty of opinions to refute my position. However, the two points that I wish to make are facts: 1. Bootlegging is illegal - therefore if you feel that this position is wrong then take it up with your friendly politicians and change the laws. 2. Robert (and for that matter Trey and Adrian) has asked us not to tape shows (or take pictures). I may not agree with that position, but I respect it and will accept their wishes. You are welcome to argue with them all that you wish. But until they acknowledge your position as correct, you still have no right to tape. I think we all know how likely it is that Robert will change his position... There may be a legitimate debate as to whether a person can own the rights to a performance or piece of music. But the fact is that right now they do, and therefore they have the right to decide if their performance can be taped. I think it is important to note that I have purchased bootlegs, including King Crimson ones in the past. However, after learning of Robert's position (several years ago) I have not purchased King Crimson bootlegs. More than have of the bootlegs that I had have already been released by Robert in an official release. I am grateful that there was some bootlegging in the past from the position that many of these recordings would otherwise have never been available. That does not make it right. However, as far as I know every Crimson show is recorded by the band and therefore will potentially be released, so this is no longer necessary anyway. Feel free to contact me directly or in ET. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:38:27 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Boots, Smoking, Discipline In response to my bootlegging tirade Arnie Schulberg wrote: > how does Fripp draw the distinction that it's okay for the band to tape the > show but not the audience members? Isn't that as disruptive of the > experience of the moment? If the answer is that the audience isn't aware of > it, then wouldn't it be okay if the taping were done without the band being > aware of it? The distinction would be in who owns the performance. It is ok for the band to record THEIR performance for whatever purpose they want. The audience has been sold a ticket to experience the live event and specifically (in the case of King Crimson) been told not to record or photograph the performance. This condition of admission is clearly stated and whether or not it has any logical purpose is irrelevent. It is a condition of attendance whether one agrees with it or not. If you do not beleive in the concept of the band owning their performance then there is no common ground to discuss this issue and you may feel free to Napsterize your recording the following day. >Second of all, if you're at the concert and experiencing it in your own >way, maybe that way includes an analysis of who's playing what, where they >are in the mix, how it sounds compared to the record or how you thought it >would sound, etc.< I have always been fascinated by seeing who does what at Crimso gigs. My point in mentioning that I had enjoyed a double trio gig less than I could have by focusing too much on the highly camouflaged Trey Gunn was simply that I personnally had not enjoyed the concert as much as I could have because I focused so intently on something so insignificant that I was not "in the moment". No, this would have no mystical effect that would "kill the heart of the music" for the rest of the audience or the band. I just was comparing this minor distraction to the major one of trying to set levels, place mikes, and tell everyone in my vicinity to shut up without being observed. I don't understand how taping could affect Mr. Fripp's performance as directly as he claims, but the fact that he beleives it makes it at least something to consider. In conclusion, it is obvious that no amount of discussion will bring us together on this issue and I don't care to preach at you. I disagree with what you want to do but it is not my place to lecture you on how to enjoy the performance. Please read this latest tirade in Fripp's diary including his point by point rebuttal of a poster with similar views to your own and consider the teensiest possibility that you may be rationalizing. I guess I did preach at you. Somebody stop me. Arnie, you can slap me back in the next issue and then let's drop this before we bore our fellow turds too much. Let's get back to carping about the new album. On another thread: smoking in public places. I used to smoke 3 packs a day and when I did I had no clue. Now that I don't smoke, I know. It stinks! When you're in the cloud you can't tell. Try this one around the house, "If you kids don't knock it off, I'm going to put on the new King Crimson." Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:31:18 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re:Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment (Arnie Schulberg wrote) "First of all, not every concert is going to be available and maybe, just maybe, you want an aural souvenir that commemorates an event you attended." You maybe would like a souvenir from your visit to Graceland too, but that doesn't give you the right to take one of Elvis's socks..... "By the way, how does Fripp draw the distinction that it's okay for the band to tape the show but not the audience members?" Because the BAND owns the rights to the music played, not the audience. After the recording is made the band or artist has the right to decide if the performance was worthy of being released or not. "Isn't that as disruptive of the experience of the moment? If the answer is that the audience isn't aware of it, then wouldn't it be okay if the taping were done without the band being aware of it?" No, because the band has made a conscious decision to record it. Obviously recording the music for a studio album doesn't disrupt the music played either. Its not a matter of the band or the audience being "aware" of it. You are taking something from the band which they believe they are entitled to own. The only way that your comparision with the audience's awareness has anything to do with the issue is if the band released a recording of the audience itself, not the music the band played. "Second of all, if you're at the concert and experiencing it in your own way, maybe that way includes an analysis of who's playing what, where they are in the mix, how it sounds compared to the record or how you thought it would sound, etc. Or, in the alternative, maybe you've decided to not immerse yourself in the experience but just make the bootleg (for whatever reason). That's your choice too." No, its NOT your choice. If you bought your ticket to make a bootleg, then you are at the wrong show. It is only your choice if you choose to go against the wishes of the band you are seeing. As has been said many times before, buying your ticket gives you the right to hear the concert and THAT'S IT! " Must all who attend a concert be of pure mind and spirit, participatory audients?" It would certainly be NICE! "We all have our own reasons for attending and enjoying the show. Some may want to have more than their memory to rely on for re-experiencing it." Too bad, really. You don't have the band's consent, you don't have the legal right to do it. You have no case other than just wanting it for your own selfish needs. If you want to reexperience it, then buy the live concert LEGALLY from the band or DGM. These recordings will be available and probably sound better than any bootleg you could make. I know I keep railing on people who post these kinds of posts, but really, who is going to be left to write, record and perform quality music pretty soon? Do you realize that 100 years ago if you wanted to hear music you actually had to HIRE a musician? Do you not realize how many musicians can't make an honest living merely due to the existence of recording technology alone? If you like music then why are so many people trying to make it even HARDER to exist as a musician? Even cover playing bar bands can't ask to be paid what their performance is actually worth. Why? Because the bar owner can just as easily turn on a jukebox. Musicians and writers of music have few enough laws protecting them as it is, if you like music, why are you so against the people who play and write it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:26:20 -0400 From: Bob Pascarella Subject: RE:Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment * "Must all who attend a concert be of pure mind and spirit, * participatory audients? We all have our own reasons for attending and * enjoying the show. Some may want to have more than their memory to rely on * for re-experiencing it." Arnie Schulberg Well..Arnie. I would think that the attendees of KC shows would (not must) at least be of pure intentions. It is not a secret that KC members do not appreciate bootlegging by the audience. You can rationalize your activities any way you like to make yourself feel better. But in the end..you have gone against the wishes of the band. And please don't compare your theft to the artists also recording the show. They OWN this music! All you purchased with your money was the privilege to witness the show ON THAT EVENING only. You didn't create any music..nor did you earn the right to preserve the music of that evening on tape. Your poor memory is your own problem and not a justification to ignore what has been asked of you prior to attending the show. If your a thief..then call yourself one. If you don't care how Mr. Fripp feels, then admit to this also. Just don't make embarrassing excuses for yourself. Robert P. Artist/Musician "If you can't respect my wishes..then you have no respect for me or my music". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:46:05 -0700 From: "tom" Subject: KC stage setup Hi As a soundman, I'm just curious: has KC completely done away w/ amplifiers/speakers and are they using in-ear monitors? Now that Pat is not using an acoustic kit (no mics) and the rest are using effects heavy rigs which have in the past been sent directly to the board (no mics again), I'm wondering if they have gone the extra step and initiated the use of in-ear monitors. This seems to be the direction they've been going in since the Sylvian/Fripp tour where I noticed no amps on stage and the drum mics were heavily gated though they did use stage wedges for monitoring. If they were to forego wedges and use in-ears as well as forego mics for direct boxes (a transducerless stage) it would truly be a revolutionary show in more than one respect: a FOH mixer would finally be able to tweak and let the PA do its thing w/o phase and lo-end bleed from the stage and vice versa. If any readers notice the set-up at the Euro shows, pls let me know. Just curious. Tom from Oakland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:09:59 +0100 From: "mark" Subject: Bits and Bobs hey, > Some of the best "Pop" drum tracks EVER laid down, were by Pat on XTC's > "Oranges & Lemons".... this I didn't realise but I agree with your assesment. what other unlikeley places has he played ?.....Check out Pats band Mastica as well - you can get mp3 samples from their web site. > So, Adrian Belew is alergic. Hm. How could he then stand working > with main > promoters for Winston & L&M cigarettes, Frank Zappa and David Bowie? Hmm - alergy to smoke is a medical condition - choosing to accept money is a moral one..... >Maybe we could start a petition and send it to BootlegTV to inspire them to >get things in gear? Bigtime - I can't wait to get my hands on more live Crimson - especially this version........ August is too far away. I guess the band have got to approve mixes and do selections though. Bugger! Mind you David Singleton isn't on tour with them is he? Keep those gig reviews coming even if they do make me jealous and check out adrians guitar solo in ProzaKc.... and lastly not at all seriously : >In a recent Elephant talk Roger Whittaker asked "what would have happened >if Fripp had joined Yes?!? ". what would have happened if Rogger Whittaker had joined King Crimson :- "Puff the magic dragon" in 13/8 time :-) (couldn't resist that I'm afraid) cheers mark junklight - dark experimental electronics http://www.junklight.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:09:22 EDT From: KRosser414 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Mastellato/Bruford In a message dated 5/30/00 9:18:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: >> In conclusion. I wish everyone would get off of Mr. Mastelloto's back! Is >> he Bill Bruford? No. But he is a brilliant drummer in his own right and he >> can probably out drum any drummer on this list. For those of you who keep >> dissing his old band, Mister Mister, even if you don't like the music, >> check out his very solid and inventive drumming. So stop this trash talking >> unless you can take his place in Crimso. And then apologize to Mr. >> >> Mastelloto for being so whiny about him > >> I've been a Crimson fan for almost 30 years myself, I remember buying Starless & Bible Black when it was a new release...I have to admit I was a little dubious about buying a new Crimson record with no Bruford, but I think Mastellato really rose to the challenge and has nothing to be ashamed of. I do miss Bruford, though, for one reason that has nothing to do with drumming per se: Bruford is a master of the unpredictable, much moreso than the four current members. IMHO that's what's most missing and my deepest criticism of the new CD - once things get started they pretty much went exactly where my ears were expecting them to go. Not that any of it's bad, I think a lot of it is quite cool, but it didn't me that 'sitting on the edge of my seat' feeling that a new Crim release usually does. Ken R ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:37:03 -0500 From: William Jenks Subject: Re: Bootlegging and Concert Enjoyment Arnie Schulberg writes, in reply to Brad Wilmot: >> Why screw up your enjoyment of the moment to >> surreptiously steal a recording that is going to be available to you anyway? >>.... > >First of all, not every concert is going to be available and maybe, just >maybe, you want an aural souvenir that commemorates an event you attended. >[snip] >Or, in the alternative, maybe you've decided to not immerse yourself in the >experience but just make the bootleg (for whatever reason). Just remember, that if you choose to do this, you are breaking the agreement you have made with the venue and the performer NOT to make a recording (...with the odd exception of a band like the Dead who explicitly allow it...). In Fripp's diary, he recently noted that he thought a performance was being ruined by the act of someone booting it. I'm not sure I understand this myself, but if the performer is disturbed by it, clearly you're affecting the performance...presumably adversely. >Some may want to have more than their memory to rely on >for re-experiencing it. I don't intend this as a flame or anything, but the problem is that you have NO RIGHT to boots (or photos if forbidden, for that matter). Your desire in this regard is not relevant! By making the boot, you are at minimum breaking your agreement with Fripp et al (who have granted you license to attend, not record). At worst, you're making the concert less enjoyable for the rest of us. Need anyone on this list be reminded of the times Fripp et al left the stage (or otherwise pouted) because of a flash photo? William Jenks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:49:41 -0700 From: Jason Thornton Subject: Re: Controversy..Criticism..It's only Music... >Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:26:27 -0500 >From: "Joe Funk" >Subject: Controversy..Criticism..It's only Talk.. > >This being my first post , I feel I must comment on all the >"Self-Proclaimed Crimson Experts" and their bitter criticism of TCOL. I >hope Y'all aren't this critical with family & friends when they don't live >up to your "lofty expectations"!.. Scary Thought....... Gads! Enough already. Criticism is valid. Everybody "judges" music by their own criteria. King Crimson should not be somehow "above" our "lofty expectations" just because some readers here are weak-hearted fanboys. Most of our family and friends are not producing musical art - and if they are, I certainly hope the rest of y'all *ARE* judging their output with a critical eye equal to what has been shown here. A scarier thought, to me, is the blind devotion some people have to bands and artists and the inability of hero-worshippers to recognize the validity of opposing opinions. There has been much intelligent discussion here in the newsletter about what people do and do not like about TCoL - and that's exactly the sort of thing I read Elephant Talk for. However, the characterization of negative opinions as "bitter" is simply inane. Am I bitter if I don't like the Backstreet Boys? Am I bitter if I don't appreciate Yes? No. Don't blame others for not sharing the blind enthusiasm you promote. >Anyway, I've been a KC fan for almost 30 years, and I am just glad that RF >& co. continue to produce intelligent and thought provoking >music...whatever the format/whoever the lineup.. Being a fan for 30 years doesn't mean one should suspend one's judgement or not approach a new King Crimson release with an open mind. People have every right to be disappointed by what they feel is a mediocre release, either in comparison to the King Crimson back catalog, or in comparison to the other current musical releases on the market. That said, in my opinion, this new album is far superior to the somewhat cluttered "Thrak" material, and is a return to the glory of the 1980's Crim. The altered vocals on the first track still bug me, though. But, I actually like Trey and Pat's playing. And I think the electronic drums sound coooool. That's my review in a nutshell. Cuddles, --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:46:03 -0400 From: Andy Acunzo Subject: live vocals dag dot swano at swipnet dot se wrote: >The first track: "Prozakblues" was a strong opener and sounded a lot >better with "real vocal" Does this mean Belew doesn't sing it with the pitch-shifter effect live; it's in his regular vocal range? I was wondering about that. What abuot the other songs? Is his voice distorted on Coda? Is Trey singing harmony on TCOL, Frying Pan, etc.? I've been wondering how they're doing with the vocals live. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:08:52 -0700 From: "Sandersen" Subject: Andy McCulloch As we all know Andy played on 'Lizard', maybe one of my favourite KC records ever. He did however play in 'The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown' chopping sticks with Carl Palmer. Arthur's maybe one of the finest voices ever to come out of 'Swinging London'. Check out his homepage!! Later, he was a full fledged member of 'Greenslade' making 4 excellent albums 'Greenslade', 'Bedside Manners Are Extra', 'Spyglass Guest' & 'Time And Tide' released on WB. The band consisted of Dave Greenslade; Keys (ex & still Colosseum) Dave Lawson; Keys & Voice (ex Stackridge) Tony Reeves; Bass (also Colosseum) and our man Andy McCulloch. If you like his drummin' approach on 'Circus' and 'Happy Family' you will love Greenslade. Thanks, KT Sandersen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:28:00 +0100 From: "David Hudson" Subject: fripp and monty python > > Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:32:29 -0400 > From: "Eric / Susan Young" > Subject: silly trivia > > Hi ETers! > Q: In what way are Robert Fripp and Monty Python > associated? > On Haaden Two the following Python snippet is recorded backwards "One thing is for sure, the sheep is not a creature of the air" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:58:11 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: bootleg your self? > enjoying the show. Some may want to have more than their memory to rely on > for re-experiencing it. > > Arnie Schulberg You may have a CD/tape afterward, but how can you re-experience something you never truly experienced in the first place? Re-experience is to experience what reaction is to action - no presence of self required. david snyde ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:09:32 -0400 From: Edward Banatt Subject: Pat and Trey >Some of the best "Pop" drum tracks EVER laid down, were by Pat on XTC's >"Oranges & Lemons".... Yes, his sound on TCOL is sparser... Perhaps this >was intentional. I don't know, but maybe we should stop trying to get into >the minds of the artists and just enjoy what is laid out for us. On the Sugarcubes "Stick Around for Joy" there is a liner-notes thank you to "Pat Mastillato" (sic) for "Shaking". Is this the same Pat M. in the current KC lineup? If anyone knows, please email me privately, as I haven't had time to sort through the list lately. BTW, Trey Gunn's "Joy of Molybdenum" is slammin. Still digesting Construction of Light. "world's my chicken soup to nuts to you" word play is getting tired already. My wife wanted to know what Ade was thinking when he wrote "speck of lint of the penis of an alien" I tried to explain that aliens don't have penises. They are bisexual, reproducing at will. Nice guitar work, though!! Eddie Please forgive me if I've said anything outside the realm of allowed discussion. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:48:40 -0400 From: "T.J. Mathews" Subject: Dreambumps >From: GenoTT at aol dot com >Subject: I Have a Dream >I'll agree with a few other comments I've read: "I Have a Dream" is the >only part of TCoL that gets on my nerves. My own nerves reacted differently than yours. About half way through the lyrics I got chills (goosebumps) from the tip of my scalp right down my spine into my legs landing at my toes where lucky for me my cat, Rothko, was there to ground me. Then tears blurred my vision. I willingly admit to being a listener. It's one of the few things I do well. Ok ok I do a mean shovel. I love TCoL. In some ways it frightens me. Not as much as the third track of the new Pita cd (anyone else?) but fairly close. I got my dsl last week so bring on btv! If not maybe it's Tokyo in October. tj dc-et2 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:55:05 -0400 From: Daniel Pepper Subject: i bought it~* hello everyone..i just wanted to say that i finally bought TCoL and just got done listening to it..The World's My..is simply an idiotic song..Belew's random word association game was cool with "neurotica" and "Sex sleep eat drink dream", but its getting old..i don't want to offend anyone, but King Crimson is a band that is supposed to produce new sounds, melodies and rhythms and this album doesn't do that at all..i believe that FraKctured is one of the WORST KC songs ever!..allow me to explain my opinion: the song sounds like a metallic version (not metallicA!) TCoL..i've listened to it several times and have come to the conclusion that it is a waste of nine minutes..i love KC, but it is my sincere opinion that this song and Oyster Soup are poor tunes..Aspic sounds like heavy metal..to all those who like the songs i just complained about..I have one question for u...if i told u that Oyster Soup, Aspic 4, and Frakctured were by an unsigned band called hgdsfltuihejkfa, what would u say about the songs? would u give them the thumbs up or thumbs down? think about it..do not convince yourself that u love a song just because it has KC's name on it!..thak u and feel free to agree or disagree=) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:55:38 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: All About Gregg Bendian > From: Moses > Subject: Gregg Bendian > > To Mr. Gokieli, who was wondering who Gregg Bendian is, he's a > percussionist who would be mainly put in the 'modern jazz' category. He > put out a fascinating free jazz album with Pat Metheny, Derek Bailey, and > Paul Wertico called "The Sign of Four." It makes the ProjeKcts and > Thrakkattack sound tame by comparison. Moses, Marcin, and all assembled: Sorry to take so long to rejoin this thread... although actually the ETs have been pouring in so frequently that this actually arrived last Thursday and it only seems like it was a long time ago... Anyway, Moses is quite correct in mentioning Gregg's pivotal role in the monster noisefest that is 'The Sign of Four.,' a set I admit to not liking very much despite having been present for most of its making (as a rabid Derek Bailey completist and a former Knitting Factory slaveboy). Gregg first came to my attention as the drummer on Cecil Taylor's 'In Florescence.' Since then he's played with numerous free jazz luminaries, notably Peter Brotzmann and William Parker. But the work which folks on this particular list might find most appealing is his two albums released under the band name Interzone. The first one is on the Eremite label and is titled 'Interzone,' while the second is on Atavistic and is called 'Myriad.' Gregg considers this his "prog-rock" band and has claimed it's an homage to Gentle Giant... frankly I don't hear it that way: sure, it's complex, but it's also gritty and muscular rather than fey and baroque. The guitarist on both albums is the heroic Nels Cline, the drummer his twin brother Alex Cline (of Cline/Gauthier/Stinson). Mark Dresser plays acoustic bass on the first album, Stomu Takeishi plays fretless electric bass on the second. With Cline holding down rhythm chores, Bendian joins the front line on vibraphone and glockenspiel. Both are recommended to those with an avant-jazz bent. Nels and Gregg also have a rather jaw-dropping recent release titled 'Interstellar Space Revisited,' a start-to-finish "cover version" of the late period John Coltrane/Rashied Ali classic, also on Atavistic. Wanted to share this much with everyone so when Gregg comes to your town you'll be suitably prepared, but from here on perhaps it would be better for inquiries to be sent to me privately. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - Wayne Horvitz, "Tired," 'American Bandstand' (Songlines) ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #683 ********************************