Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #680 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 680 Sunday, 28 May 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Civilizations by Radius featuring David Cross Smoking At Crimson Shows TCOL cutting edge retro TCOL of course Into Your Frying Pan... Cheapest CDs on the Net?? Maybe you missed this gem first time around... Re: Fracture vs. FraKctured/no 'LarKcs'? + IMHO + Copenhagen Duet+Dual=Duplex Bootleg KC-CC next generation: dvd Re: Compact Disc vs. Real Audio Re: Sound formats Re:Acoustic drums another review of TCoL Plunder the Substantial Booty *ISLANDS* TCOL- bring it on, ad nauseum Upon further review... Mike Giles The Nice & King Crimson Re: Rationalizing V-Drums Derogatory Elephant Talk Reference ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:57:50 EDT From: Noisynoisy at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: Civilizations by Radius featuring David Cross Hello everyone! The new RADIUS album CIVILIZATIONS is now available from the Noisy Records website (www.noisy.co.uk) Essentially a collaboration between Producer/Experimentalist Geoff Serle and myself this CD also features Sheila Maloney (keyboards), Carlo Lucius Asciutti (voice) and Maxine Braham (voice). The site will link you to a free CD quality download (mp3.com/radiusdownload) of the opening track 'Floating' (8:53). You can buy on-line by credit card or by telephone or fax on (44) 20 8922 7254. I am also offering 3 David Cross CDs including Exiles (featuring Robert Fripp, John Wetton and Peter Hammill ) and 4 King Crimson albums. All are available autographed by yours truly. Please take the time to check out this new album. Very best wishes to you all, David Cross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:30:08 -0400 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Smoking At Crimson Shows Concerning smoking at Crimson shows; >Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:15:15 -0400 >From: Block Dog >Subject: Why is there "no smoking" at KC concerts >>> Why is there "no smoking" at KC concerts >>>- any one has astma? (very curios) >Adrian is alergic, simple as that. > Block Well I am astmatic and was glad that there was a "NO SMOKING" policy. Besides it is really gross coming home from a bar and having your clothes and hair smelling like you are still there. Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:10:59 -0400 From: Tommy Kochel Subject: TCOL cutting edge retro I must echo Peter Grenader's May 26th entry to the DGM Guestbook: the ConstruKction of light is a wonderful musical gift. It's full of juicy quotes and ideas from absolutely every KC studio recording since 1972. A great retrospective as a 30th anniversary "gift" to those diehard enthusiasts like myself who have the entire catalog running through their heads ready to be "downloaded" and accessed at a moment's notice. I find myself preparing Jamaican "Rice and Peas" with smiles bursting onto my face as I hear phrases of "Red", "LTIA", "Neurotica", "Fracture", "Frame By Frame", and "VROOOM VROOOM" turned in an utterly new and forward-thinking way by the very essence of the King who brought them to us in the first place. Why, of all people, aren't THEY allowed? And for those for whom TCOL is not enough of the new, there's the ProjeKct X release. What more could we ask for, guys? Tommy Kochel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:05:44 -0400 From: Andrew Acunzo Subject: TCOL of course Art Cohen wrote: >I agree with the criticism that the album is somewhat monochromatic in >approach. My first reaction after listening on the webring -- and after >my first listening on CD -- was "That's it?" King Crimson albums in the >past have always included at least one "quiet" song (e.g. "Talk to the >Wind", "Book of Saturdays", "Matte Kudasai", "One Time", etc) and I >think this album suffers somewhat from a lack of dynamics. I agree with this agreement. (?) From the very beginning KC set wide parameters for themsleves by going from Schizoid Man to I Talk to the Wind. Ever since then their albums have always had an eclectic mix of music that knocks you down and scares the hell out of you and music that picks you back up, dusts you off, and says 'everything's going to be OK.' TCOL doesn't seem to have this. I think their plan to include the acoustic version of I Have a Dream to provide contrast would have been helpful in this regard. Even if they don't like the lyrics (I don't really either), an instrumental version would have worked. Actually I think the lyrics do work much better in the cacophony of the Coda which is very emotional and intense. Quite a way to end the album, I just wish it the CD had some more contrast on it. The light moments serve to amplify the heavy and vice versa. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:42:00 -0400 From: "Michael E. Bowers" Subject: Into Your Frying Pan... Hey Crimheads! I cant find a soul around who wants to talk about Crimso (anybody else, after 30 years, finally sick of hearing Whats that crap you re listening to?), so after skimming these posts for three-plus years in silence Im compelled by my enthusiasm for TCOL to expel all my repressed crimotions. Boy, weve been through the rounds, havent we, Crims? The King has more flavors than a Baskin-Robbins. And I have to admit that my first listen to the new album left me wanting. But, as is so often the case with Crimson recordings, Im beginning to fall in love with this one more and more with every listen. My exposure to KC came at the tender age of 14 in 1973 with Larks Tongues. While all the other kids my age were into Zep and Sab and Kiss and Alice, I was taking a lot of crap for playing Yes (and Yes, Tales From Topographic Oceans was a great album, one of their highest marks! Those wholl tell you otherwise are the same that gave everything Crimso did after Court the boot), ELP, and anyone else with an imagination (so tough to find in the rock world). That album took 3 years to become my favorite of all time (still standing!). It was Starless that really grabbed me, and I ended up buying the rest of the albums up to that point (1974) one-a-week on slim paper-route earnings (explaining why I didnt have a car until age 18!). Lizard and Islands took the most time to get into, but after wearing out multiple copies of each they too became favorites. Running out of Crimson I found myself yearning for more, so I bought everything I could find with RF s name on it. The solo on Enos Babys On Fire is my favorite Fripp solo to this day. And if it werent for Robert I would probably never have discovered such other great acts as Van Der Graaf Generator (Peter Hammill), and other obscure oddities like Henry Cow. So when Discipline was promised I was so full of anticipation I could hardly contain myself. Ill never forget how bewildered and disappointed I felt when I finally listened to it for the first time. Yes was dead, Phil Collins and Genesis had sold out, Peter Gabriel and Peter Hammill couldnt captivate me like they used to, and now this crap from my favorite band of all time. Well, that was it. I was going to listen to this until I liked it. And, ok, I finally did. But neither Discipline nor Beat could inspire me the way the old stuff did. It still doesnt. TOAPP, however, came close. The title track especially, though much the same formula as the other two 80s projects, became a favorite. Seeing the guys on stage that summer of 84 finally sold me to 80s Crimson. Then they quit. I quickly forgot King Crimson. So when Thrak came out I didnt rush right out and buy it. My disinterest was so bad (no thanks to all the old-farts reunions happening at the time) that the marquee above the Michigan Theatre, right around the corner from my residence in Ann Arbor, which for about a month had been announcing the coming of King Crimson to its stage, went totally ignored. Let the dead bury the dead swam around in my mind each time I saw that sign. About three days before the event a co-worker brought in a copy of the album. I was instantly transported to places I hadnt been in 20 years! I went right out and bought the album and tickets to the show. King Crimson was back! And Thrak now stands as one of my favorites of all time. For me it was the grand culmination of all that Crimso ever was, is, and could be. TcoL, for me, now makes the could be part of Thrak evident. ProzaKc and Oyster are pretty much a joke, but quite definitely a King Crimson joke. The title track, as well as Frying Pan and the Coda are real favorites. In between I guess Im a little bored with FraKctured and LTIA IV, which seem to be flogging the dead horse. No, I dont like the V-drums and miss the dynamics of acoustic drumming, but maintain that Pat is as capable a drummer as any (Bills just gifted, ok?). Im also not thrilled with the production, either, which is indeed muddy on the bottom and sometimes rather brittle on the high end (especially on Coda). But as with every Crimso album of the past, its those moments of innovation, those brief sparks of something new and different in the music itself, and the inventiveness of the musicians giving it to us that make TCOL another fine piece of work by our favorite band. Yes, I am beginning to really love this album now. Sufficiently bored? Well, Ive said my piece, now Ill shut up for another three yearsperhapsand keep on reading too much Elephant Talk. Thanks gang, look forward to seeing some of you at the next crim-gig in S.E.L. Michigan. Enjoy the album! crimso at provide dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:22:48 +0100 From: umrk at home dot com Subject: Cheapest CDs on the Net?? I was just checking to see if the local store had TCOL in yet on their website. It was then I realized that the prices are VERY low. For you folks in Europe, the shipping and handling would still make it a super deal to buy a few CDs from here. (Here on the West Coast of Canada we pay half of what you do for a CD). I mean TCOL is $11.18 US. Discipline is only $7.79!!! WE are talking cheap. It is all there at www.absound.ca. Probably worth a visit. Where are the setlists from Nashville? JZ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 05:26:42 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Maybe you missed this gem first time around... Luprates wrote, in his first post to ET (#679): "I say that KC is perfect in its imperfection, and thank god for that." For a guy for whom English was not his first language, he sure managed to nail it, didn't he? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:27:55 CEST From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Re: Fracture vs. FraKctured/no 'LarKcs'? + IMHO + Copenhagen Hello all! Just a quick post to say: >You need to hear TCOL with headphones, it really brings out all the >sounds...including the drums. Does anybody know why it wasn't called >'LarKc's Tongues In Aspic IV'? I mean, why not, after your ProzaKc, >ProjeKcs and FraKctured? 1) Probably because "LarKc's Tongues In Aspic IV" wouldn't be a sequel to "Lark's Tongues in Aspic I, II or III". 2) IMHO means In My Humble Opinion, LOL... ;) 3) I'm off to Copenhagen in an hour... Whoa... 4) It's raining. /Macahan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 06:12:12 PDT From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: Duet+Dual=Duplex Bootleg Greetings I was reading the Robert Fripp Discog and noticed a 4 disc bootleg set entitled "Duet+Dual=Duplex" a 1997 Bootleg recorded live at Shepherd's Bush Empire,London 30 June/1 July 1996. If anybody out there has this and would want to make me a copy email me personally. Adodson19 at hotmail dot com thanks, AKD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:50:02 +0200 From: "Christian Skina" Subject: KC-CC next generation: dvd I say it again and again: get your hands on that Sylvian-Fripp in Japan video! Not only the music is great but the video is big time too. (with interviews for those interested in talk). I have purchased a video projector and the experience is now wall-size... If any of you (or DGM herself) can put that concert on a dvd, please do so. Every time I play the tape I do it with great care: tapes get easier Damaged [sic!]. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:15:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Hartley Subject: Re: Compact Disc vs. Real Audio William Heinrichs wrote: > I have read a number of posts where people will withhold comments on TCoL > until after listening to it on CD, as opposed to the Real Audio release. A > consistently written reasoning is that the compact disc is somehow better > than Real Audio. > > Can someone clarify this? > > I was under the assumption that both mediums are digital. Is some form of > digital encoding better than others? ...or is it that a computer's audio > reproduction is less than optimal? Would a Real Audio data transfer to > compact disc played on a "traditional stereo" sound the same as the > commercially available compact disc? It's a matter of sacrificing quality for compactness. Music on a CD is sampled 44,100 per second on each channel (for stereo). Each sample is taken using 16 data bits, giving a range of 65536 possibilities for each sample. This means each second of music on a CD takes up 1,411,200 bits, or close to the capacity of a standard 3.5" floppy disk. You'd need a T-1 that wasn't doing anything else to be able to stream that kind of data to a computer in realtime. In order to bring the music to people using modems to connect to the Internet, you have to make some sacrifices. First, the Real Audio feed for tCoL was in mono. All of the subtleties in mixing for stereo were tossed out. Next, the sample rate has to be cut back. The lower the sample rate, the more you lose in the high frequencies, including the harmonics. Finally, there's some compression involved. While RealAudio's method is a trade secret, it's almost certainly a "lossy" compression scheme, like for MP3s. The more you compress it (that is, the smaller you want the final file to be), the more data you lose. So what we got with the RealAudio feed was a pretty darn good sounding mono mix, but not nearly as clean and crisp as the final CD. I had captured the RealAudio feed of tCoL and burned a CD with it. It sounded good until I got the real CD! Comparing the two shows what a difference there is. Using MP3 encoding, it would have been possible to get a better sounding feed, but it's harder to capture and save a RealAudio feed than an MP3 - and that's by design to help protect the copyright of the artist. I'm also pretty sure that there wasn't a higher quality feed offered for people with faster connections for the same reason; if a full-quality version of the album was available as a free download, how many people would forego buying the album and settle for a burned copy from the Internet? A lot, according to the recording industry - that's why there's so much fuss over Napster, which allows trading very high quality MP3s. So the short answer is that the RealAudio feed was of much less quality than the CD on purpose. It is possible to get CD-quality audio from the Internet if you have a fast enough connection, but there was a decision not to do so in this case - and rightly so, I think. I hope this wasn't too technical! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:23:32 -0400 From: John Ott Subject: Re: Sound formats > >Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:47:32 -0700 >From: William Heinrichs >Subject: Compact Disc vs. Real Audio > >I was under the assumption that both mediums are digital. Is some form of >digital encoding better than others? ...or is it that a computer's audio >reproduction is less than optimal? Would a Real Audio data transfer to >compact disc played on a "traditional stereo" sound the same as the >commercially available compact disc? No it would not because of the Real Audio compression algorithm is lossy. Sure both CD and RA are digital. And both are approximations of the real sound. CDs are 16bits at 44Khz. Real Audio MP3, Liquid Audio, Widnows Media and other download formats take the CD quality sound and encode that. The encoding agorithms compress the sound into fewer bits of information and lower sample rates. All of the algorithms are lossy. That is bits are thrown away that are deemed unecessary or unlikely to be missed based on various communication theories. But the result is less dynamic range and deader sound. There was an article in Electronic Musician recently that compared the various Internet sound formats. The conclusion was the Real Audio was the best sounding format for streaming audio, MP3 was better sounding but too much information for streaming over modems but pretty good for downloading. But all were much less satisfactory than CD. Maybe in the future when High bandwidth internet access is more widespread there will be better formats for music over the internet. But I don't think it is there yet. At least not to my satisfaction. later John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:48:36 -0400 From: John Ott Subject: Re:Acoustic drums > >Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:09 -0400 >From: Ted White >Subject: Rationalizing V Drums > >In ET #678, Grant Colburn wrote: > >"Beyond the possibilities of infinite sounds at one's disposal, my guess >for the biggest reasons for their use over acoustic drums is Fripp's >intense dislike for the volume of acoustic drums. When acoustic drums are >on stage everything else must be turned up louder to match the volume of >the drums making it harder to hear what everyone else is playing." > >I think that's nonsense. Anyone who has heard unamplified jazz played in a >small club knows that unamplified acoustic drums are far from overpowering. >But the simple fact is that in a rock context, *all* acoustic drumsets are >multiply miked and significantly amplified, giving the bass drum an >opportunity to make your lungs rattle. > >So onstage, drums overpower the other instruments only when the hand at the >soundboard is uncertain. But in the *recording studio* things are >different. Here the drummer is usually isolated by acoustic baffling or >placed in his own booth, making eye contact and visual interaction with the >other musicians more difficult. A V-drummer doesn't need that acoustic >isolation: he can be heard only on earphones or a studio monitor. He >becomes another member of the group playing *wholly* amplified instruments. >I suspect *that* was what was wanted. > >TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 I have disagree with my friend Ted on one point. If it is the hand on the monitor mixer that is uncertain, why are more and more bands placing their drummers in mylar cages on stage? The Isolation cages are to stop the unamplified direct sound from the reaching the other players. No soundman is involved in that. The soundman only determines how much drums get in the monitor. And Fripp has written he needs very little drums in his monitor. Unamplified jazz players may not be overpowering, but I think that is their technique and light touch, rather than the nature of acoustic drums. And the nature of drumming in a other genres calls for louder and harder playing. later John dc-et ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:22:10 +0604 From: Alain Proulx Subject: another review of TCoL Very good opus, very sensitive approach. KC always had to deal with the critical choice between composition and improvisation. I think Thrak had a better balance between these extremes. TCoL is definitely more improvised, according to the Projekct heritage. It still a great album, but not rich as was Thrak. And yes there is a problem with drums and bass. I would say that sound in general has something wrong. Mastelotto is a good musician, but he has to live beside Bruford's memory which is not fair for anyone. And there's also the V-drums that don't have enough presence. The same problem exist with Gunn's bass. A great performer we really discovered, very skillful, impressive. But the bass on TCoL sounds so light..... I'm sure, we will really discover this great material live. Despite of the above, I really appreciate this album. I'm sure it's gonna be much more ompressive on a fute live album. Al ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:15:36 EDT From: Ctao at aol dot com Subject: Plunder the Substantial Booty Tim Bowness made the following comments in 678: >The band's legacy is being plundered, but in an enthusiastic way that is >sonically very different from the source inspiration. More importantly, I >also feel that for the first time since the reincarnation of the band >there's a choked emotional engagement with the material and a genuine >intensity in the performances. It feels like listening to King Crimson as >opposed to listening to a band playing at being King Crimson (as Thrak >sounded to me). Whereas Thrak seemed a little misguided in its attempts to >please both the Crimso hardcore, the radio jocks (People) and the >post-grunge explorers, TCOL just seems happy in its own interesting little >world. To me, the guitars seem sharper and wilder and the harmonic language >more interesting than on Thrak. Here, here! Couldn't of said it better meself. I might add that, to my ears, this is the first post 70's KC material that seems to reach back to the early catalog for inspiration (in addition to the obvious 80's/90's stylistic stuff). Seems to me that Adrian has really managed to connect with the overarching historical trajectory of KC. This is a self-aware KC (as opposed to self-conscious). And the playing? Mon Dieux! Like it or hate it, this is ensemble work on the edge of playability - the right side of the edge. Trey has monster chops, while maintaining the necessary degree of 'ass' in the bottom end. Pat? Groovus Maximus. These guy's are a true rhythm section - they have a common language here. And Fripp and Belew are "on point", as well. Belew's solos, in particular, have a fire that I associate with the Discipline era live shows. May he always rock this hard. After hearing the webring stuff, and now the real deal, I can't help thinking the RA format was a poor call. It just sounded horrible! I can't fathom the muddiness complaints about the final mix. The clarity is fine, on the systems I've checked - good tones abound. Conor www.mp3.com/GeographicalTongue P.S.- I have no issue with folks who dislike the disk. My issue is with those who try to extrapolate some form of aesthetic "logic" or moralistic high ground from these subjective impressions. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:56:09 -0400 From: Daniel Pepper Subject: *ISLANDS* hello everyone=)...i would like to give my opinion on the KC album ISLANDS..i'm not sure if i'm just an impatient fan, but there are some KC songs/albums that take a lot of patience and attention to listen to- Moonchild, the entire ProjeKcts box set, Providence..ISLANDS strikes me as being very rich with beautiful classical music and jazz, BUT is also a great way for me to fall asleep.. i don't know if other KC fans have this problem, but Islands is almost impossible for me to sit through..so in a way, i love and hate Islands at the same time..i'm curious to know if other KC fans have problems listening to certain KC albums or songs, and if i'm the only one who has views that contradict each other about the album..thanks=) bye ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:03:06 -0400 From: mike coffey Subject: TCOL- bring it on, ad nauseum KC'ers: It has been my experience when listening to a new work by anyone, that if I immediately love it, it will be played for about 3 weeks tops, then filed under futile. The music I find most gratifying is the music that challenges me, makes me listen, then over time learn to love it. That's why I love KC et al. I can put on TCOL and hear something different every time, depending on my mood and listening abilities. Good, bad, it doesn't matter to this listener. Challenging, different, those are the important attributes, and this record has them. I've said my piece, so Peace! IMHO- In my Humble Opinion (for the person asking about the anagrams)! Mike Coffey Oakville, Ontario, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:10:13 -0400 From: "Steve Watkins" Subject: Upon further review... TCoL is the most ungodly, awesome recording KC has ever produced. (Take it from someone who merged with white light in the top of one's head and almost left one's body during a performance of "The Sheltering Sky" in Atlanta, GA.) I wasn't even going to buy the new KC until I started reading ET and saw how "controversial" it is. But, as fate would have it, I was going to Apalachicola the next day so picked up a copy for the trip. I left early the next morning having listened to TCoL once through. [See "Lordy, lordy" post from earlier ET.] As I cruise thru the national forest not listening to but literally experiencing KC at its finest, I found myself feeling pure joy. The music played me like the band played music, and it was so fun. Tears were streaming down my face during the solo in Lark's Tongue and I couldn't wait to hear the album through again. Now, I cherish the day I can go see a performance of KC again. I salute these guys for making music such a joy and an experience. I truly wish and hope others get as much out of TCoL as I am. Believe in Love, Naganath ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:26:31 +0000 From: "J. Robinson" Subject: Mike Giles Re. Mark Rehder's reply to my posting about Michael Giles: his drumming gives 'In the Court' such a boost, such power. True, the drums are recorded a little drily, but that also helps them to be punchier. Rightly, Bill Bruford gets most of the adulation as the King Crimson par excellence (although KC had some other great drummers & percussionists). But I think Giles' contribution was huge to the early Crimso sound, just as important, in its way, as Crimso's deity-in-waiting, Fripp. As to the muddy, messy sound of early prog rock albums, I don't know. I don't think it was money (for ex, ELP must have a few bob to record 'Brand Salad Surgery', but who knows why the drums are so lacklustre - they're fine on 'Trilogy', for instance). ON RESTORING REPUTATIONS Talking about giving Mike Giles' the proper credit for the power of early King Crimson, one should also mention Ian McDonald. Reading ET over the past few weeks has sent me back to certain moments in the KC canon, and inspired me to revaluate the contribution of various members, which I have applied to my writing-in-progress on supergroups: One should give much of the credit of In the Court of the Crimson King to Ian McDonald. Fripp is usually seen as the guiding force and dominating personality in every incarnation of King Crimson. This is true, but he had some strong musical personalities in the band at various times. Indeed, one could argue that Fripp's best work comes out of sparring with and sparking off strong musicians (Red, In the Court of the Crimson King, Discipline, Starless and Bible Black), but doesn't do so well when he's left to his own devices in King Crimson: viz., the relatively lacklustre Lizard, where Fripp, according to the writing credits, wrote all of the music (and Sinfield the lyrics). Going back to In the Court of the Crimson King, Ian McDonald's contribution was very substantial. He has the sole musical credits for 'In the Court of the Crimson King' and 'I Talk to the Wind' (with Sinfield as lyricist), with the whole band credited with writing the other three tracks ('Moonchild', 'Epitaph' and '21st Century Schizoid Man'). Instrumentally, McDonald is credited with playing reed and woodwind instruments, vibes, various keyboards, and the all-important mellotron. He also sang vocals; Fripp's credit is simply 'guitar' on In the Court of the Crimson King. The significance of McDonald can be revealed by his absence from the far less successful Lizard. Of course, it's very difficult to ascertain who exactly did what, who wrote what, and so on. Review ing McDonald's contribution, one only has to listen to many passages of In the Court of the Crimson King, where the clarinet, or oboe, or flute predominates (such as the flute on 'I Talk to the Wind', or the reed instruments breaks in the title track). '21st Century Schizoid Man' is clearly a guitarist's track, with Fripps bravura, aggressive riffing leading the band, but 'Epitaph', 'I Talk to the Wind' and 'In the Court of the King Crimson' are not guitar-led. Indeed, Fripps contribution on these tracks is surprisingly minimal, consisting mainly of plucked acoustic guitar, or stabs of the Gibson. -- Jeremy Robinson P.O. Box 393, Maidstone, Kent, ME14 5XU, U.K. tel: 01622-729593 (UK) 01144-1622-729593 (US) 0044-1622-729593 (Europe) E-MAIL AND INTERNET E-mail: E-mail: Website: ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:26:25 +0000 From: "J. Robinson" Subject: The Nice & King Crimson Just listening to The Nice's 'Diamond Hard Blue Apples of the Moon' and 'Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack', two of my favourite Nice tracks. Beautiful, uplifting late Sixties sound. Wonder if The Nice ever considered a reunion tour? I'd pay very good money to see them perform some of their classics (especially if P.P. Arnold appeared; though I guess they wouldn't be burning the American flag this time). It was great to hear that Emerson was performing & chatting at the Smithsonian in recent ELP digests. The Nice were an underrated band, and it's true that they don't get played nearly as much as ELP, which's a shame. King Crimson: Talking about the returns of fabled, legendary bands - it's unreal, in a way, to be going to see King Crimson in July in London; it's unreal, because it seems like such another era - the 'classic' prog era of late 60s/ early 70s. But it's also great, amazing, stunning, that Crimso are still touring - and not as a reunion outfit or as their own tribute band, but with new, original material. King Crimson are I guess one of the very few bands of that era who can still produce new and important music (I'm not so sure about Yes, the Floyd or Genesis). Compared to those bands, Crimso still seem to have some of the old fire left in 'em. Jeremy Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:13:14 -0700 From: "Jerry Cohen" Subject: Re: Rationalizing V-Drums Ted wrote: "I think that's nonsense. Anyone who has heard unamplified jazz played in a small club knows that unamplified acoustic drums are far from overpowering. But the simple fact is that in a rock context, *all* acoustic drumsets are multiply miked and significantly amplified, giving the bass drum an opportunity to make your lungs rattle." Really? I've spent plenty of time listening to acoustic jazz (on both sides of the drum kit) and I'm still impressed at the sheer volume an acoustic kit is capable of (you have to be sensitive and tone it down most of the time of course). I remember reading an Elvin Jones quote where he compared the ride cymbal to a weapon that can drown out the whole band if you're so inclined, and he's right. I saw Kenny Garrett a few months ago...everyone was mic'ed except the drummer, a really young guy who just hooked up with him. He was awesome, but LOUD...in the really fast tunes, you seriously couldn't hear Kenny or anybody else over his cymbal wash. Anyway, of course you're right that in a rock context the drums are much louder, along with everything else. I'm just saying that in an acoustic context, the drums are by far the most (potentially) overpowering instrument. Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:38:51 EDT From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: Derogatory Elephant Talk Reference In a message dated 05/27/2000 4:24:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: > P.S. Congratulations to ET for being mentioned in a Crim song. So, how do we all feel about Adrian's derogatory reference to Elephant Talk in ProzaKc Blues? Seems that some of the previous duologues and diatribes affected him deeply enough to foster lyrical inspiration. Anybody bothered by the mention? Arnie Schulberg ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #680 ********************************