Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #679 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 679 Friday, 26 May 2000 Today's Topics: CDs of the KC Euro tour? Lordy, Lordy! ET ArKchives Work Hopefully you've put them in their place yet another...REVIEW OF TCOL Re: Krap Press Reviews Fripp's guitar & effects my first post The music on 'Hazel' tCOL - Oh no not again VDrums - the truth! (Re: is a rational discussion of V-Drums possible?) Boy, was I wrong ..... re:Apologies for Krap. Gordon / TCOL / Expectations / ET Vdrums advantages. Mister Mastelloto, TCOL This Year's model of King Crimson Fripp Unplugged Recording quality (was re: Giles) Fracture vs. FraKctured/no 'LarKcs'? Compact Disc vs. Real Audio Re: Michael Giles Humour in FraKctured? V-drum question Rationalizing V Drums creepy. Re: is a rational discussion of V-Drums possible? GIG REVIEW: May 20, 21 Nashville ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:27:17 GMT From: "Alex De Large" Subject: CDs of the KC Euro tour? I remember Fripp saying that ALL of the shows from the King Crimson European tour would be available on CD, but I haven't seen any details. I guess BootlegTV is supposed to handle that, but I haven't seen anything from them either. Having watched the new KC material take shape through the various ProjeKcts, I'm keen to hear how the new stuff mutates over the course of the entire tour. The P2 concert CD was much more exciting to me than the initial recordings, but I wish there'd been more shows available, in the vein of "official bootlegs" with simple packaging, cheaper price, to let those of us that are rabid for all things Crim get our fill. Something like $20 for an entire show seems reasonable, particularly compared to normal bootleg prices. Maybe we could start a petition and send it to BootlegTV to inspire them to get things in gear? I'd be willing to collate the names of those interested and then forward it, or maybe we could just write to BootlegTV directly? They've got a couple addresses on their website (info at bootlegtv dot com). If we make our voice heard, maybe they'll respond. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:33:21 -0400 From: "Steve Watkins" Subject: Lordy, Lordy! God, ya'll take this music so seriously! I just picked up the new one, TCOL, and find it to be great fun, thoroughly enjoyable, and exciting. I it really gives a taste of what the KC is like live. The band's joy of what they are doing shines through. I really don't get all the banter about this album and how "good" or "bad" you folks think it is. You should post more interesting material like the last Nashville review. I could care less about your opinions. (Wasn't that snippy; I should fit right in!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:45:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Stok Subject: ET ArKchives Work This weekend the machine which runs the ET archives will be down for some serious maintenance (the maintenance isn't really needed, but when a machine's been running for a year quite happily then the urge to tinker becomes almost irresistible :-) If all goes to plan and there aren't scorpions or snakes nesting in the machine then the work should be completed by Saturday. After that the archives will be completely reworked, which means that for a while there might just be all of the digests up as text. If anyone cares about the design of the archives then they are free to suggest things before I start rebuilding the interface & features. I don't know how long it'll take to build the new archive, if you send me email I can focus on particular things. Mike -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | GPG PGP Key 1024D/059913DA | Fingerprint 0570 71CD 6790 7C28 3D60 stok at colltech dot com (CT - work) | 75D2 9EC4 C1C0 0599 13DA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:57:58 -0500 From: "Jeff King" Subject: Hopefully you've put them in their place I'm so glad there were two posts in newsletter #667 by Art Cohen & Grant Colburn that really hit the nails in the heads of these idiots who are making illiterate critiques on TCOL. With all the remarks made about Pat's drumming these persons have apparently never listened closely to Thrak or possibly witnessed any concerts or live videos of the Thrak lineup. The method he plays on TCOL is the same as on Thrak & is unique. And as far as the opinions on the bass & drums, if you have a fairly decent stereo there no problem with the sound. I was really impressed with the incredible amount of low-end captured on these recordings ( your doing a wonderful job Trey! ). Also, these folks are obviously not giving the music their undivided attention when they put the CD in. In the mix Ade & Bob's guitars are split right & left in the mix & everyone involved is contributing. The bottom line is that King Crimson is a group that stays true to their own convictions & writes & records music that remains on the cutting edge. Can you think of any other group that sounds like them? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:16:40 PDT From: "Bill Colrus" Subject: yet another...REVIEW OF TCOL Hello All... I thought I'd throw my two cents in (three cents in Canada) concerning the newest album in my collection....THE CONSTRUCTION OF LIGHT... This album is odd, to say the least, but good, to say the least... I'm addicted to the vocal portion of the title track... It's almost as good as the drumming....yes, the DRUMMING.... I'm a drummer, and this recording (in my opinion), and Pat's playing on it, is a logical progession for the band...Wasn't is supposed to be an electronic band? Don't you nay-sayers read? He can very certainly handle the odd meters, and I really don't think acoustic drums would've been good on this album...Everything ELSE, including Ade's vocals, are so processed, that toned-down drums would've sounded out of place... I now officially like the V-DRUMS... I played them at a local store the other day, and they are very VERY fun to play...And Why can't drummers have gadgets like guitarists and keyboardists?...Let's face facts, KC, acoustic drums or not, are not going to sell millions of records...They're too smart for that...The musicians in the band play what they want and what they feel HOW they feel and with WHAT (equipment) they feel...Let's just stand back and let them "make trouble"...It's not like they're using a drum machine...endless, mindless beats...The V-DRUMS are more like a DRUM MACHINE!!!!! I know I'll take flack (sp?) for this, but who cares?!!!? I bought the record, I like the record, and I think Pat did a fantastic job... For all of you less-than-thrilled-with-the-album fans out there, see this band live...The material is good and makes sense...especially live.. Besides, what are the OTHER fifty year-olds that YOU know doing??? Yours Indisciplinary, -Bill Colrus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 00:17:56 EDT From: ToYCo at aol dot com Subject: Re: Krap Regarding Grant Colburn's red hot rant (and the one that prompted it), light up, both of you...considerably. Lotsa music takes time, and ultimately it'll be time well spent if one is interested in that. If not, then TCoL will end up in the used CD bin and some lucky stiff will pick it up for $3 and by really, happy. That very thing happened to a friend of mine with a Fripp/Sylvian disk. He hated it (even for $3) and gave it to me. That, as they say, "has made all the difference." Cheerfully yours, Tom Sullivan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:39:14 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: Press Reviews Following up on the earlier thread of press reviews of KC... I mentioned that the Sunday Times had previously reviewed Thrak. Well, last Sunday (21 May) they reviewed tCoL. Sorry for the delay, but here's the review in full. The thing is, havign read it a few times, I still don't know whether the reviewer (Stewart Lee) likes the album or not :-) Just because King Crimson emerged from the dreaded "progressive era", don't confuse this vital British group with anything involving Rick Wakeman. Their 12th studio album finds Robert Fripp showing you can be an almost offensively complex guitar hero without standing with your legs akimbo, while the band grind various contemporary influences into the Crimson mulch. The startingly ugly opener ProzaKc Blues crosses Tom Waits with American hardcore band Tool; Heaven and Earth's man-machine clatter approximates the rushes and comedowns of prime drum'n'bass, while Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part IV rearms the proto-Radiohead riffing of their inspirational 1970s sets with speed-metal drums and dentist-drill guitars. Fripp is a happily married man with a pet rabbit and a nice house in Dorset. How does he still contrive to sound this angry? Anyway, I like the album. Andreas Dr Andreas Schoter, Intertrader Ltd http://www.intertrader.com Tel: +44(0)131 553 0380, Fax: +44(0)131 553 0381 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:36:25 +1000 From: "Tony Greig" Subject: Fripp's guitar & effects Hello again, Reading the past month or so of ET regarding Fripp's guitar and sustain etc, I distinctly remember a Guitar Player Magazine featuring Fripp (80's, Post TOAPP I think). He was talking about Tokai guitars (the Japanese company that made excellent copies), and how he had one which was modified etc, to take on the road so he could leave his trusted Gibson Les Paul in safe keeping. Can anyone shed a little light on this fading memory as I have not read the article for a long time! Also thought I would throw that in, as I have not seen anyone mention this company and their guitars in the Fripp sustain rave! He might use Fernandes now and the Gibson Les Paul early in his career, but was it a Tokai in the late 70's & during the 80's? Joe Walsh used one too I think. Now have TCOL and listening, and it is taking some time to sink in etc! Cheers, Tony Greig. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:08:07 -0300 From: luprates Subject: my first post Well,finally i've decided to post something here after two years observating brilliant displays of intelligence,sheer stupidity and arrogance towards my favorite band. Given the fact that this is something that has always been,and seemingly always will be around the KC universe,I can only hope that the first i've mentioned are displayed more. So,i've bought the new album,already having in mind that I should forget about anything i've read about it,pro and con. And I was rewarded with a perfect,I mean PERFECT album from KC,one more time again. I knew they wouldn't let me down and come up with new,different and instigating music. I realize that I really can't understand what's wrong with it,now,and I wish I was lucky enough to witness their concert,where people keep ranting about them. Unfortunately,I live in Brazil,but this time I won't miss them if they go to Argentina;you don't give KC it's due worth,yet you still have them playing near your homes. Of course I understand that,since the people in my country don't appreciate MUSIC,it impossible for a band such as KC to play here. (excuse my oxymoron: there is no things as a band such as KC but KC) Of course KC has its flaws,as they are human and nobody's perfect,so I wonder what everybody really expect from them. The music from the gods? Sorry folks, but that one you get to hear only on the other side. I say that KC is perfect in its imperfection,and thank god for that. One last observation: although I listen to few tunes from what's called progressive rock,I never found KC to be any close to that. So,why KC is dubbed as such? Because of the Mellotron,or Sinfield's lyrics?(which are not bad as some people say; they fit very well in their purposes,although I prefer Ade's lyrics,and Palmer-James's too.) Let me state , in a display of healthy arrogance, as a fan I think the best way to denominate KC's music is as MUSIC , and if you're going to label, then I would call it King Crimson. No way. I don't even like progressive rock,to start with. Don't underrate KC,don't grotesquely offend them with such a denomination, I ask all of you,please. Thank you and best wishes, Lu Prates. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:55:50 +0000 From: chris dot smith at glass dot co dot uk Subject: The music on 'Hazel' .. was, if I remember rightly (chance would be a fine thing) co-ordinated and produced by Andy Mackay of Roxy Music. Given his tastes in music generally, King Crimson seems quite a cautious choice. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 05:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Miklos Subject: tCOL - Oh no not again My email has been flooded almost everyday with a new ET newsletter release. Almost 90% of it refers to tCOL. Good reviews, bad reviews, complaints, talk, too much talk, elephant talk. Elephant talk song goes from A until E. ET newsletter reached R from REPETITION. It is becoming more personal than technical. Enough of it. Ronald Vogel (Brazil) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:36:08 +0100 From: Matthew Nolan Subject: VDrums - the truth! (Re: is a rational discussion of V-Drums possible?) OK chaps and chap-ettes, here's the lowdown. I am a drummer. I own a Roland VDrums kit. I record with it and I gig with it. It has good points and bad points. For me, the good outweighs the bad by some considerable margin, but I'll try and present this information in a balanced manner. On the plus side: They are at the cutting edge of electronic drum technology. The responsiveness far exceeds anything else out there bar an actual acoustic kit. Most of the sounds in there are "physically modelled" as opposed to plain samples so it can create the changes in timbre that occur with different volumes and position on the head (how hard and where exactly you strike the skin of the drum). VDrums can sound very much like an acoustic kit, or a set of orchestral percussion, or congas, bongos or tablas. However, Messrs Belew and Mastellotto have mostly chosen the more synthetic sounds on offer and, with TCoL, a lot of processing has gone on too, to make them sound even more "electronic". Check out mp3 clips #3, #4, #5, #7, #8, #9 or #12 from my band's website ( http://www.rbtb.freeserve.co.uk/downloads.htm ) for some raw "VDrums as acoustic kit" examples. The drum pads feel and respond under the stick like a real acoustic drum - this is vital for your sticking technique and the safety of your wrists. The old Simmons stuff was like hitting a plank of wood with a thin sheet of rubber over the top. The head (or skin) is made of a woven fabric mesh though, instead of a solid plastic (or animal hide) sheet and so is much, much quieter acoustically. This is great for on stage where you can then have everyone's monitoring levels more comfortable. I believe Mr Fripp is particularly fond of this aspect. My neighbours rather like it too as I can bash away at all hours with my headphones on. They're also lightweight and compact! VDrums also have the advantage that you just plug them straight into the mixing desk, with either a stereo feed or, for more flexibility, an 8-way loom. And they sound the same each time. Compare this with setting up 8-10 microphones in a different hall each time and getting the sound the same quickly. On the minus side: They are not quite as responsive as a real acoustic kit. They don't have the dynamic range. They are pretty good though and, when you consider that for a live gig - or even more so for a recording - the drums will get compressed to hell by the sound engineer anyway, it doesn't matter that much. Playing jazz would be a possible exception, hence, I think, Mr Bruford's stance on the issue. Also, the physical modelling isn't quite perfect. It doesn't take into account repeated hits too well - especially on toms and crash cymbals (it is pretty neat on ride cymbal and snare though - a case of rationing the technology to the vital parts to keep the costs down I suspect). You see, once a real drum or cymbal is struck, if it is still resonating when you strike it a second time, the sound is not the same as a hit at that velocity in isolation. The sensors can be a bit finicky. Sometimes, a hard hit on one pad can also trigger a quiet sound on another. Or, on stage, a very loud sound from someone else can trigger a tom or cymbal. I've only witnessed this with highly impulsive noises though - like an accidental unplugging of a guitar jack with the amp cranked. Perversely, there is a mechanism built in to the VDrums "brain" to reduce the likelihood of this crosstalk and sometimes this means that if there's a very loud sound and you hit a drum, it ignores you hitting the drum. I have not come across this, but I think Pat has mentioned it with P3 or P4. There are edit pages where you can fine tune all these crosstalk and sensitivity parameters to suit your playing and environment. I have had little if any grief with this after finding the right settings. Pat is also having trouble with his digital mixer - this is separate to his VDrum kit. He is also triggering other non-VDrum sound modules, samplers and so on via MIDI. I don't know what his set up is, but he may be triggering the VDrum sound module via a MIDI loop too, rather than directly, staying inside the VDrum "brain". This will present a latency which may cause problems at high tempos. It's the same with MIDI guitars, I think Adrian has talked about this before - having to play slightly ahead of the beat all the time. Well, that about covers it, except to say that Roland have just brought out the long promised TDW-1 "expansion card" for the VDrums brain. Apparently, this goes a long way to improving the toms and cymbals, and various triggering and crosstalk issues. For an insight into how this is being received, you could check out the discussion forums on the (unofficial) www.vdrums.com site. I'll be buying mine in a month or two when they're available at sensible cost! I hope that helps, and I haven't battered you all with technical jargon too much. Regards, Matt Nolan. =================================================== The bizarre but boogieable Rob Beadle Triangle Band http://www.rbtb.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:43:59 -0400 From: Dan Wasser Subject: Boy, was I wrong ..... I wanted to get my BRIEF comments in before the subject becomes off-limits: First impression of TCOL (as I had posted in ET): boring, disappointing (Either I wasn't in the mood or listening through speakers on my computer, from the Web Ring, just doesn't cut it.) Second (and beyond) impression of TCOL: Heavy duty ..... heavy duty rock 'n' roll. Very intense. I love it. (Adrian blows me away.) Can't wait to see 'em perform in the D.C. area ......... Dan P.S. Congratulations to ET for being mentioned in a Crim song. P.S.S. Check-out XTC's Wasp Star. Classic XTC. I'd like to see a Belew/Partridge collaboration one day. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:30:44 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re:Apologies for Krap. >Gee, a thousand apologies, for I have just learned that it is not >acceptable to dislike any of Mr. Fripps recorded output. I wish I knew this >before. So I am sorry. I guess I take back everything I said. Of course its acceptable to dislike Fripp's recorded output.:-) Its just not acceptable to be viscious and mean while you do it. Your comment that the new album should have never even been released though, compares to a parent telling I child they wish they'd never been born. ConstruKctive criticism is always good. DistruKctive criticism does no one any good. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:34:00 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: Gordon / TCOL / Expectations / ET A wonderful day in a one-way world. I) Thank you to all the many ETers who answered my Gordon Haskell question, including John Baltimore, "Izyrp", Mickael Vedrine, Andrew Baxley, Lake Hearne, Pete, Rafael, Mark Fortman, and, of coursr MX (beat the batteries!!!). II) Concering TCOL. This remarkable record still remains unique. After 500 times listening. Yet I do not accept the phrase "If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it, you don't have to come to the concerts etc" as given by many ETers (and Fripp, too). If one does not enjoy the album, then he doesn't. At least one is in touch with music. There is simply no comment on that case. One likes it, or not. But stay non-emotional. On both sides. III) The expectation thing: This is an evil thing we all can't get rid of. One always expects something. And even if you don't expect, you expect the unexpected. The only way out is what the guy in one of the last ETs said: "I am a collector, so everything is welcome" (forgot his name and the exact words, forgive me). Add to this the like-it-or-not-thing. IV) If I had to make a few suggestions... 1) Cut the timeline. It's not very useful. 2) Instead: Create a family tree with links. 3) I put it once before but it got lost in the mass of information: Updates on the release pages can't be traced. Would be great if updates were placed besides the records that have been updated. 4) In one of the last issues someone wrote about creating a FAQ. Well, you (read: WE) have one. What we don't have, is an Introductory Page for the Unitiated. Simply: Basic facts for those who do not know. (For me, it took about half a year until I realized what it is all about.) So, that's enough. Markus Alexander Gnad PS. For I am from Austria - what does IMHO mean? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:08:18 -0400 From: John Ott Subject: Vdrums advantages. Mister Mastelloto, TCOL > The other "advantage" would be in the electronics where there has simply > been a whole world of advancements in the unit's digital capabilities. The > V-Drum is miles ahead of the old Simmons SDX that Bruford still uses. But, > and this is a big but, the V-Drum is made by Roland Corp. Their drum sounds > have always been notoriously on the "thin" side. As good as the samples > are, they always seem to lack next to other company's (Alesis, Korg, > D-Drum,) samples. The big thing is whether you like Roland's sounds or not > (a very subjective thing...). > > So, that's the short version....BTW, I am a drummer. > A very good description. The other advantage is the setup time for microphones and balancing the sound for an acoustic drum kit is a time consuming process. As one who has sat through this process during change overs in small clubs, This can be annoying for both the audient and performer. Fripp has mentioned in his diary the amount of resources acoustic drums take and hence Crimson now uses v-drums. Robert has written how both Fripp and Belew have been simplifying their own rigs to make travel/touring less expensive and complicated. But the PM diary speaks of Pat's problems with his new kit, and Robert's rig took a dump in Nashville. Best laid plans etc.. > In conclusion. I wish everyone would get off of Mr. Mastelloto's back! Is > he Bill Bruford? No. But he is a brilliant drummer in his own right and he > can probably out drum any drummer on this list. For those of you who keep > dissing his old band, Mister Mister, even if you don't like the music, > check out his very solid and inventive drumming. So stop this trash talking > unless you can take his place in Crimso. And then apologize to Mr. > > Mastelloto for being so whiny about him > I will second this motion. Pat's playing with Mr. Mister, on Damage and various Projects have convinced me of his quality. If you dig Bruford (I do) that is no reason to slam Pat. Both are quality players , each with their own style. You may dig one style better, But that does not make the other Krap. I like TCOL, not my favorite Crimso, but worth buying and listening. later John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:08:35 -0400 From: Don Cooper Subject: This Year's model of King Crimson TCoL? Sure I love it! It's new, after all. I loved the 1994-1996 version of KC. I've been regularly listening to recordings from that era since then, along with the ProjeKCts. But it's nice to have something new. I think of it like this: Throughout the '70's, people kept wondering if the Beatles would get back together. In the film "Imagine", there is a part where John is walking around in New York. Someone walks up to him and asks why he doesn't get back with the Beatles. He says, "Why don't you go back to high school?" I guess it's not 1994 any more. Don http://www.cooperaudio.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:15:14 -0400 From: Bob Pascarella Subject: Fripp Unplugged Hey Frippers. Has anyone heard the recorded interview series with RF called Fripp Unplugged? I saw this on Patricia Fripps web site and found it quite interesting. Has anyone ever attended a keynote speech by Robert or Patricia? Any feed back would be appreciated. Bob P. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:36:29 -0400 From: Mark Rehder Subject: Recording quality (was re: Giles) Jeremy Robinson wrote: (much deserved tribute to Michael Giles snipped) <... In fact, Subject: Fracture vs. FraKctured/no 'LarKcs'? After listening to TCOL for a couple of weeks now, I am really beginning to appreciate 'FraKctured' more and more. I still feel the original is superior but the new version has it's moments too. Is it just me or is there really a backwards guitar part in one of the softer sections(reminiscent of 'Prince Rupert Awakes' or 'Book Of Saturday')? The best part of the song has to be the middle section where you can hear Trey's bass in the right channel. Mindblowing! Like the original, I didn't like the ending; it just seems in both cases that the song's reach a climax then end off rather abruptly. You need to hear TCOL with headphones, it really brings out all the sounds...including the drums. Does anybody know why it wasn't called 'LarKc's Tongues In Aspic IV'? I mean, why not, after your ProzaKc, ProjeKcs and FraKctured? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:47:32 -0700 From: William Heinrichs Subject: Compact Disc vs. Real Audio Hello, I have read a number of posts where people will withhold comments on TCoL until after listening to it on CD, as opposed to the Real Audio release. A consistently written reasoning is that the compact disc is somehow better than Real Audio. Can someone clarify this? I was under the assumption that both mediums are digital. Is some form of digital encoding better than others? ...or is it that a computer's audio reproduction is less than optimal? Would a Real Audio data transfer to compact disc played on a "traditional stereo" sound the same as the commercially available compact disc? I do not have the equipment to test this myself, but would be interested in hearing opinions. I am considering whether to purchase a CD burner. Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:58:38 +0200 From: "A. Tramer" Subject: Re: Michael Giles Hi there again (and again and again...)! (no-it's not from Markus......sorry just a joke, don't take it seriously ;-) In ET 677 "Dan Ceo" asked for views about Michael Giles, drummer of the first incarnation of the Crimson King. So here am I, (speaking with Adrian Belew's tongue). I'm in his camp, rating Michael Giles a superb and underrated drummer. He is not as powerful and obvious present as Bruford, but his playing , especially the "fills", are wonderful, straight to the point (I'm not a muso, so it's hard for me to find technical terms for what I mean). On the first two K.C. records he was the right drummer at the right place. When I read Dan's letter, I had just finished to listen to the wonderful "Mc Donald and Giles" - LP from 1970, which I fixed on CD-R yesterday. It's not as heavy on the mellotron as "In the Court...", but in a very similar style and the interaction between the Giles-brothers and Mc Donald is just phantastic. For me it's a brother of the first two Crimson-records, just a little bit smaller! Speaking of drummers.... As a big Zappa-fan, I always found that Bill Bruford was "The best drummer Zappa didn't have in his life". But in a similar banging-style he had Terry Bozzio (UK... Wetton...). Check out "Polytown" by Bozzio/Torn/Karn, CMP-'94, or his work with "The Lonely Bears". Free-form music, wich comes more from Jazz than Rock. Personal note: This is my first appearance in ET, which I discovered just one month ago. I'm 41, from Germany, and had been "crimsonized" when I was 15 ("Lark's Tongues.." as the first impression was a hard job!). All over the years I didn't get in touch with anyone, who really is into Crimson, so it is wonderful to have you all! Andreas 9 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:17:04 -0400 From: Mark Rehder Subject: Humour in FraKctured? I may be mistaken, but, at the end of that amazing, shredding section during FraKctured, does it not seem (after Trey and Pat hold that last note) that Robert's slow phrase sounds vaguely like the schoolyard taunt "nyaah, nyaah, nyaah nyaah nyaah"? Could it be a challenge to others, as in "I got through it, now you try it? Inquiring drummers want to know... (Then again, maybe I'm spending way too much time listening to this music, and am starting to hear things!) Mark -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:52:51 -0500 From: Don Hosek Subject: V-drum question >But, >and this is a big but, the V-Drum is made by Roland Corp. Their drum sounds >have always been notoriously on the "thin" side. As good as the samples >are, they always seem to lack next to other company's (Alesis, Korg, >D-Drum,) samples. The big thing is whether you like Roland's sounds or not >(a very subjective thing...). I might be mistaken on this, but it seems to me that one could buy just the V-Drum triggers and plug them into another drum module and thus get that other module's sounds. But remember that with all things artistic, personal preferences and prejudices play a big role. On bass, I'm really rather indifferent to the instrument, and can sound just as good on one bass as another. But I've seen many an experienced bassist struggle trying to control the sound on my Gibson EB3 which sounds great in my hands. From watching and listening, it seems the biggest problem for them is the added sustain the Gibson gives with its set neck which they don't have with their bolt-on necks (Fender or otherwise). -dh --- Don Hosek dhosek at quixote dot com Quixote Digital Typography 312-953-3679 fax: 312-803-0698 orders: 877-634-1811 For information about SERIF: THE MAGAZINE OF TYPE & TYPOGRAPHY, http://www.quixote.com/serif/ or mail serif-info at quixote dot com Have you seen Sans Serif? http://www.quixote.com/serif/sans/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:59:09 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Rationalizing V Drums In ET #678, Grant Colburn wrote: "Beyond the possibilities of infinite sounds at one's disposal, my guess for the biggest reasons for their use over acoustic drums is Fripp's intense dislike for the volume of acoustic drums. When acoustic drums are on stage everything else must be turned up louder to match the volume of the drums making it harder to hear what everyone else is playing." I think that's nonsense. Anyone who has heard unamplified jazz played in a small club knows that unamplified acoustic drums are far from overpowering. But the simple fact is that in a rock context, *all* acoustic drumsets are multiply miked and significantly amplified, giving the bass drum an opportunity to make your lungs rattle. So onstage, drums overpower the other instruments only when the hand at the soundboard is uncertain. But in the *recording studio* things are different. Here the drummer is usually isolated by acoustic baffling or placed in his own booth, making eye contact and visual interaction with the other musicians more difficult. A V-drummer doesn't need that acoustic isolation: he can be heard only on earphones or a studio monitor. He becomes another member of the group playing *wholly* amplified instruments. I suspect *that* was what was wanted. TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:01:20 -0500 From: paul olson Subject: creepy. Creepy. Honestly, what did obsessive fanboys (emphasis on "boys" as there are no female posters) do before they could post their exalted, self-referential opinions online? Have model airplane sales declined since the dawn of the internet? It's great to be a King Crimson fan, but why do all online fan sites reature such an invariable tone of disappointed grief? Does anyone really feel the band is out to betray them? There are lots of other albums to buy, after all, if one feels so hurt. And other concerts to attend, as well. Who cares about v-drums? The new Crimson album is a heavy rock album and seems pretty good to me. What does it have to do with saxophone players or drummers who haven't been in the band for many years? Hoping this keeps you all busy for a while. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:30:10 -0500 From: "Buzz Fenner" Subject: Re: is a rational discussion of V-Drums possible? In Digest 677, Chad Ossman wrote: "Can someone (preferably a percussionist) please help illuminate in layman terms what makes V-Drums a great advance over, say, the kind of electronic kit Bill Bruford used in the 80s & 90s KC?" When electronic drums first made their appearance, the playing pads were made of strong mylar plastic. A very responsive surface, stick-bounce wise, but the problem I had was that it was too good. My hands and wrists (especially) took a lot of shocks and left them in pain. Then came drum triggers which are electronic sensing devices placed on acoustic drums. The drummer had the feel of his acoustic set and the added benefit of electronic samples, tweaks, etc. But, they were not extremely reliable. Enter the V-drum, a product trying the give you the best of both worlds. Looks as if most of the R & D went into the pad design. Not exactly pretty to look at but seems to be the best alternative for the drummer who wants the acoustic feel and playing essentially an electronic. I personally have not played any yet, but plan to check them out at some point. Buzz Fenner bfenner at bscn dot com home bfenner at jonesborocwl dot org work ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:33:33 +0400 From: Erik DePoy Subject: GIG REVIEW: May 20, 21 Nashville Here's a review of the Saturday and Sunday (May 20 and 21) shows in Nashville, written by a friend of mine who is also an anonymous former member of this list. ------ I won't tell you about my weekend because I wouldn't want to seem like I am gloating.... Well, if you insist! I happened to find myself in Nashville on Saturday night and Sunday afternoon. As a matter of fact, I was standing in a very small club on the corner of 12th & Porter, and you will never guess who was there...ok, you know who was there. I ran down to Nashville (damn, that's a long drive) and caught 2 of the King Crimson shows. They were really phenomenal. I had a ton of fun. I guess you can read the setlists on ET, but some of the highlights for me: -Adrian slamming ET in Prozac Blues (I went to ET this morning to read some reviews of the shows - I saw some review of TCOL and realized why I stopped reading ET). -Oyster Soup: had a SICK jam in the middle -Cage: I loved the "lounge act" sound they gave it -Frying Pan: could be the B side to a hit single -Heroes: Yup, Bowie's Heroes as an encore (that would be the A side to the single). -ToaPP: Adrian accoustic encore - really excellent. Just Adrian and his guitar. When he got to the Fripp solo, he made a couple of goofy "whooo - oooo" noises - it was hilarious! The club was tiny. I would be surprised if there were 500 people there (I know there were less). The sound was loud and clear. On Saturday, I was in the back of the room, so I didn't see much (but heard everything LOUDLY). I only had tickets for the one show, but then they added a Sunday matinee. I was right up front for that show. I split my time between watching Fripps fingers and Adrians (I actually felt guilty for ignoring Trey and Pat). Right up front the view was incredible, but the sound was actually not so good. Because Pat is using the V-drums you don't hear the real drum sound, and the PA was projecting to the rear of the room (but it was so small, I could hear them...just not like the other night). Vocals weren't as clear on Sunday because of the same PA situation. Gee, I guess if my biggest problem was that I was so close to the players that I didn't get optimal PA sound - then I am doing pretty good! I have yet to hear the TCOL cd - it is released in the States today...I will go pick it up today. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #679 ********************************