Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #678 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 678 Friday, 26 May 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: the tedious TCOL discussion Setlists Re: Trey's bass Another ConstruKction Of Light Review Viscount Simonds Setlist Dead Thread? Wait a minute (TCoL and ProjeKcts) re: Is a rational discussion of V-Drums possible? Apologies for Krap. ProjeKct X Re: Is Pat's drumming really music? Re: The Konstruction of Krap Michael Giles Early punk rock Kconstrcutive Kcriticism and Kclarification Reading too much Elephant Talk TCOL and dead threads Kconspiracy Theory :-) Angel Gets Caught In The Buffy Trap Angel Gets Caught In The Buffy Trap - Part Two The deception of V-Drums The Setlist? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:56:53 BST From: "Toby Howard" Subject: NEWS: the tedious TCOL discussion Hi everyone. Just to let you know that the discussions about TCOL ("I hate it", "I like it", "You're wrong to hate it", "No, *you're* wrong to hate it", "I like hamburgers", "No, they're horrible, I like plums") will continue in ET for a while yet. I'm not making that a dead thread for a while. I know this won't suit everyone, but of the private emails I've had from you about this, the overall feeling is that such discussion is inevitable and we should bite the bullet, for a time. But, what I will draw the line at is people sniping at each other's musical tastes. Take that onto private mail or your favourite duelling pitch. Or, maybe better, chill and -- hey! -- enjoy the wonderful diversity of human nature. Have fun. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:56:53 EDT From: "Donnon Murray" Subject: Setlists Hello all. Does anyone from the Nashville shows have a setlist? Unlike a past poster I DO expect and hope they will "Whip out" material as old as ToaPP and older. I'd be very happy with a healthy chunk of Discipline, but that's just me. [ There was a Nashville setlist in ET #676 -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:01:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Cohen Subject: Re: Trey's bass David, injecting some constructive criticism into the discussion, said: >The other problem is Trey Gunn's bass sound, it is so subterranean and >muddy that it is difficult to hear exactly what he is doing. This means >that the whole rhythm section is just a mushwith no real attack. I have to disagree with this assessment. I didn't listen closely to Trey's bass on this whole album, but I was listening to it in my car yesterday, and the bass playing on the song "TCoL" *jumped* out at me. And my car stereo is generally wretched at reproducing bass. I thought that both the playing and the production of the bass -- at least for part of one song -- were quite excellent. I agree with the criticism that the album is somewhat monochromatic in approach. My first reaction after listening on the webring -- and after my first listening on CD -- was "That's it?" King Crimson albums in the past have always included at least one "quiet" song (e.g. "Talk to the Wind", "Book of Saturdays", "Matte Kudasai", "One Time", etc) and I think this album suffers somewhat from a lack of dynamics. --Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:05:01 -0400 From: Daniel Pepper Subject: Another ConstruKction Of Light Review alright..i didn't buy the album yet because i'm a 17 year old kid and i'm saving up my $...but i heard the entire album on real audio..granted that ra is not a great medium of listening to music, especially King Crimson, a band which deserves and needs only the best sound quality..BUT the album is great..as for it being backwards, well, BEAT was a bit backwards too..and so was Wake Of Poseidon..in fact, i think this album is moving in a foward direction..ProzaKc Blues has KC' first attempt at blues music, TCOL is a very beautiful song, FraKctured is only un-original in its name--the music is great, and every other song on the album is up to the Crimson standard...The World Is My..is the worst song on the album and it is still very listenable..AND PEOPLE ARE RIGHT, THIS IS BECOMING A DEAD THREAD..lets end this thing okay? LONG LIVE CRIMSON..bye=) [ Easy on the CAPS, Daniel. It's getting noisy around here. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:57:46 +0200 From: Denis Hamel Subject: Viscount Simonds In the liner notes of "Let The Power Fall", Robert Fripp quotes an expression of Viscount Simonds : "the decencies of controversy", which Mr Fripp describes as "a modern alternative to blasphemy and heresy". Who was (is) Viscount Simonds ? And what actually are these "decencies of controversy" ? Any informations are welcome. [Please excuse me if the question has already been asked.] Denis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:57:19 +0604 From: Alain Proulx Subject: Setlist Hi folks! All of you who take time to review a concert for us, you're blessed for your kindness. I like to read your subjective appreciation but I would really enjoy some more objective facts as a simple setlist. It's nice tu read you loved KC concert, but what was this show and what was it made of? Knowing KC, it's clear that the setlist will change with time, but it's always interesting to be able to follow this evolution in the making of that beast we call a tour. So, in time we'll do the same for you..... Bye ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:49:32 PDT From: "Nomad Stem" Subject: Dead Thread? In ET # 677 Miguel Farah F. asks: >Say, Toby, how much more until TCOL becomes a dead thread? :-> To which Toby responds: >[ I hear you. Watch this space - Toby ] I certainly hope that TCOL doesn't become a dead thread. After all this is the newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts, and the point of the newsletter is to discuss the music by Fripp and Co. TCOL is the first studio release from King Crimson, outside the ProjeKcts, in 5 years. Also keep in mind that although our chums in the UK have had 2 weeks to listen to the CD, us Yanks are only just getting our hands on it. I'd hope we give discussion on this release the time it deserves before getting back to the "What does Thela Hun Ginjeet mean" postings. So what if it is all that is talked about for a while. Is that the whole point of this forum? Now my question: did anyone else notice a TCOL cover graphic displayed at the HMV site during the Webring that had a larger blueish ripple effect on it? My copy of TCOL doesn't have that image anywhere on it. Can anyone identify where that came from - i.e. did other versions of the cover or CD booklet come out in other parts of the world? Nomad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:10:38 PDT From: "Dan Ceo" Subject: Wait a minute (TCoL and ProjeKcts) I just got my copies of The ConstruKction of Light and the ProjeKcts Box (took a while for any stores around here to stock it on the shelves). I must say, as always, I'm completely blown away by all these news sounds bombarding my mind through the interesting medium of stereo surround-sound speakers. I hear a lot of things influenced from all sorts of incarnations. I also hear some modern techno influences, as well. Now, what really intrigues me is that all of these people in here who are being overtly critical seem to forget this question that has always pervaded my mind, ever since I first heard ITCoTCK: isn't/hasn't King Crimson always been about experimenting with different sounds? What's more, haven't they always been about expanding and blowing just about every form of music from any possible context? For example, Kceep in mind that Belew hasn't been the only singer to mess around with processed vocals. You want some proof? Listen to "21st Century Schizoid Man," "Cat Food," or anything off of Lizard. And I wouldn't doubt that even Messr. Bruford uses some V-drums. Anyways, that's all I have to say about that. I'm enjoying ConstruKction, immensely, and I can't wait to hear what Crimson did on the ProjeKcts. Dan D. Lion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:26:28 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: re: Is a rational discussion of V-Drums possible? (Chad Ossman wrote:) >Taking into account PM's own frustrations in addition to many fans' >dislike of the instrument (V drums), it becomes increasingly >difficult for me to see >why Fripp, Belew & Gunn found them so inspirational in forming Projeckt Two, >and then to carry them through into KC proper. Beyond the possibilities of infinite sounds at one's disposal, my guess for the biggest reasons for their use over acoustic drums is Fripp's intense dislike for the volume of acoustic drums. When acoustic drums are on stage everything else must be turned up louder to match the volume of the drums making it harder to hear what everyone else is playing. Plus I think rightly or wrongly that Fripp felt that the V drums push the sound of Crimson to the cutting edge of modern rock (though that sound would seem to be more techno than the hard rock which the music seems to be). That said, though I like the V drum's potential variety, I mainly hear them lacking for giving a crisp cracking snare sound. I realize though that there probably are samples in it that could imitate acoustic drums better than what Mastelotto used on the recording. The whole point of their use I would guess was not to imitate acoustic drums but to come up with something different. Although their use doesn't make me dislike the new Crimson, I don't think they have quite the cutting edge sound Fripp and Co. were hoping for. For the most part the newer heavy bands like Tool, Korn, Limp Biscuit, Rage Against the Machine, etc. use acoustic drums almost exclusively, so whether its really cutting edge or not, the modern hard rock sound DOES use acoustic drums. I do always feel a bit torn about Fripp's complaints of volume. After all, as the sage's say, "If its too loud, you're too OLD!" If Crimson wants to compare favorably with heavy newer bands it SHOULD be loud and in your face. My own preference would probably be for Pat to use acoustic bass and snare with a few cymbals, along with V drums up the wazoo for the fills and patterns he adds to the music. >Can someone (preferably a percussionist) please help illuminate in layman >terms what makes V-Drums a great advance over, say, the kind of electronic >kit Bill Bruford used in the 80s & 90s KC? As far as I know not being a drummer, the biggest difference is that V drums have actual heads on them like an acoustic drum giving them a more natural response. The drums that bruford used in the 80's had heads that were like playing on a piece of plywood. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:27:32 -0400 From: Thomas Kozal Subject: Apologies for Krap. Gee, a thousand apologies, for I have just learned that it is not acceptable to dislike any of Mr. Fripps recorded output. I wish I knew this before. So I am sorry. I guess I take back everything I said. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:51:37 +0100 From: "roger whittaker" Subject: ProjeKct X Hi, Sorry but this ProjeKct X release has totally passed me by. Suddenly everybody started talking about this new album and I don't really know exactly what it is! Is it Belew/Fripp/Gunn/Mastelotto improvising or something? Has it been released in England? Is it any good? What's going on?!? Also: On the subject of KC tracks being used in unlikely TV programmes - I'd forgotten all about this until the posts started - a good few months ago my Dad excitedly (well, mildly so) rushed upstairs to tell me that 'Moonchild' had been used as incidental music in an episode of 'Heartbeat'! Just the opening unfortunately, not the 9 minutes of studio experimentation. Interesting also that the programme happens to be the name of a KC track from 'Beat'. Hmmm. Makes you think huh? Also (II): It's been on my mind a lot recently - what would have happened if Fripp had joined Yes?!? Just an interesting hypothetical question regarding his invitation in 1970/1 (?). Nick Whittaker. P.S. After several months on ET I have finally worked out what 'IMHO' means! It was really getting on my nerves. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:56:26 -0700 From: "Jerry Cohen" Subject: Re: Is Pat's drumming really music? To Vab: Sure, many rock drummers of today simply keep the time, but many go far beyond that. And yes, you can make complete music out of drums (rhythm and pitch). Check out the percussion group Pete Lockett's Network of Sparks (featuring Bill Bruford) or Max Roach's pioneering group M'Boom. Of course, if you soloed Pat's TCoL tracks they wouldn't make much sense without the rest of the band, but neither would any of the other tracks...it works as a whole. The drummer is responsible for the feel, drive, and dynamics of the band. Btw, my only criticism of his playing on TCoL is that his sounds are a bit homogenous, whereas on any of the ProjeKct tracks (including Heaven and Earth) he opens up with some very interesting stuff. Small matter though. Jordan Cohen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:05:23 -0400 From: "DR" Subject: Re: Re: The Konstruction of Krap > >The first being the recording of > >fingering and picking exercizes that would be better left to the > >practice room. Grant Colbert answered: > Where have you been? Have you not heard ANY of the 80's Crimson recordings? > Or the R. Fripp String Quintet? Or the League of Crafty Guitarists? Complex > polyphonic picking "excercises" have been a part of the Fripp sound for > almost 20 years. Indeed ! I once had a philosophy teacher (back in '79) who argued that all Crimson's production after Lark's... was just guitar exercices. I met another who thought everything that followed Islands was crap. Yet another claimed Red was God's Final Message to His Creation. > >The second is: and where's Belew during these? He might lend a > >touch of humanity, or just plain MUSICALITY to these proceedings. > Except for some parts of FraKctured I think He's playing during ALL of > them. MUSICALITY is a matter of opinion of course. The performance of a 3 > minute Webern 12 tone composition obviously has musicality even though the > ''touch of humanity" may be minimal (along with most listeners actually > enjoying the music itself!) Right on again ! I particularly enjoy Webern's Symphony (Op.21) in that respect. > >And where is Belew you might ask? Well, when he is around he is > >strangled by production, his voice altered in most circumstances. > > You say this like somehow these things were done to Belew's voice against > his will. Do you really think he was forced and didn't have a say in it? LOL ! Now, that does not mean we should go into Hero-Worship-Mode. IMHO, TCoL is a very good rock album even if a bit redundant; sort of KC-meets-NIN. Yes, the same old 70's and 80's riffs are there so it's not really 'new', is it... but hey, what else is new ? NIN? Ever heard Varese? Grunge? Ever heard The Stooges? Of course I could go on and on... DR Quebec City, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:11:32 +0000 From: "J. Robinson" Subject: Michael Giles From Jeremy Robinson: Totally agree with Dan Ceo on Mike Giles in ET no. 677: > I hear a lot of people talking about Bill Bruford (don't get me wrong, > he's great!) and a lot of people chastising Pat Mastelotto (he's pretty > good, got a long way to go, though). But I haven't heard anyone talk about > Michael Giles. Listen to those drum breaks on 'In the Court of the Crimson King' (title track) - stunning (especially the thudding flurry around the kit which introduces the barrage of the chorus (best after the middle eight). I also recall that Carl Palmer found it v. difficult to learn the drum part to '21st Century Schizoid Man', during the early ELP days, and remember, Palmer was often number one in the polls in the music weeklies. In fact, if you listen to other early prog rock albums - by Genesis, Yes, ELP, etc - the drums were often recorded pretty crappily (listen to 'Brain Salad Surgery' - terrible production - or 'Foxtrot' - they sound cardboard boxes), while Giles' percussion on 'Epitaph and 'In the Court' sound magnificent. Jeremy Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:16:21 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Early punk rock Art Cohen responds in ET #677: "Joseph wondered: ">5. Bought EXPOSURE on CD this weekend. Is DISINGAGED ">the first GRUNDGE song ever?! "I would guess that the first "grunge" song (or first "punk rock" song) would be from the Velvet Underground, the Stooges, or someone even earlier than them, depending on your definition." The first group I ever heard *called* "punk rock" was the Flaming Groovies, in the late sixties, more or less contemporaneous to the Velvets and the Stooges, but significantly more retro in sound and approach. The term seemed to lie quiescent until the Sex Pistols et al revived it in the mid-seventies. --TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:27:53 -0400 From: Mark Rehder Subject: Kconstrcutive Kcriticism and Kclarification Hello all, Much going on here that I'd like to respond to, so long post coming up. Chad Ossman wrote: >Well, my subject line pretty much sums it up. Instead of just spewing hatred >all the V-Drums, can we try to find out exactly what makes KC consider them >a valuable asset? > (snip) > >Can someone (preferably a percussionist) please help illuminate in layman >terms what makes V-Drums a great advance over, say, the kind of electronic >kit Bill Bruford used in the 80s & 90s KC? I've been playing drums professionally for 23 years (and following KC and B. Bruford - one of my fave drummers - during that time). It seems that Robert prefers the V-Drums so that the onstage volume can be controlled. If you watch the Live in Japan video, those plexiglass screens between himself and the drummers are not just to reflect the lights in a pretty way... I think he likes the drums, but at a distance! (I feel the same way about bagpipes and opera singers...) One of the reasons that the V-drums are so touted, is that one can program different sounds. They allow you to specify what parameters are being mimicked. So, one can choose what type of shell (maple, birch, etc.), shell thickness, type of heads, tuning - you get the idea. The problem with these beasts is that they don't capture (as mics do) the air around the kit - the fact that when one drum is hit, the others all quietly vibrate in sympatico. John Bonham's legendary drum sound was mainly from room mics picking up all the sound, that has had some time to develop and blend together. The V-drums are light-years ahead of what Bill used in the 80s. Those old electronics had a very hard playing surface (not a big deal for Bill, as he's a fairly light player), and the sounds were quite limited. What they did have at the time was novelty value. The sounds they DID make had not been available to drummers before. As a drummer who also reads, writes, and arranges music, I've always been interested in getting different tonal sounds out of my kit. I used a Simmons kit back in the mid-80's, and it was nice to have the tonal variety, but the sounds were limited. The V-drums are very good, but in my opinion (and perhaps Pat's) they aren't quite there yet - and they may never be. There aren't very many drummers in the trade magazines waxing poetic about them. Most are using triggers off their acoustic set, and some use the Ddrum system, which is touted to be the best. The V-drums are great for a home studio, and some use them for playing shows like musicals etc., for the tonal variety. But, most drummers, who like the usual cacophony of the real thing, with everything ringing at once, find that nothing will ever compare to that. Regarding TCoL: Yes, the V-drums (and Trey's bass) are a bit muddy sounding in places. The wprst offence is when Pat plays a fast, single stroke roll - it sounds very nachine-like, but that's fine if that's what Pat WANTS it to sound like! Please remember folks - it's THEIR music - they can write and play whatever the hell they want! We can comment on it, but, if you think you can do better, then cough up the $20,000 or more, and let's hear your stuff!! All that being said, here are my only nays about TCoL: - As mentioned, the bottom end mix is sometimes rather murky. To my ears, the V-drums lack some definition, and that is odd, as one would think that electronics would cut through better than miked acoustic drums... - Wishfully thinking, it would have been nice to have one "Adrian ballad", as he writes some beauties. (One Time, Walking on Air, Matte Kudasai - all very nice tunes that give KC a chance to show some colour and shading.) But, the material that is on the CD is most likely the the music they felt worked best. I know from my own experience - picking tunes for recording can be a hair-pulling! -Right now, Lark's doesn't yet do it for me - but then again, it took quite a few listens for all of Discipline to sink in... Yays about TCol: - A new King Crimson recording! That in itself is a very good thing. As one who works in the business, dealing with the commercial pressures of trying to reach an audience, I'm just very, very happy that KC even exists! With all these tough guy, jock-rock poseurs like Metallica, Korn, Limp Bizkit - they couldn't be as heavy AND inventive as this group if they tried!! KC is writing exactly what they feel like - and getting away with it. As many have said - if you don't like it, find something else that turns your crank, and leave the band alone. They aren't going to change anythingbecause you demanded it or were disappointed somehow. - It's so nice to actually hear what Trey is doing in a KC setting. (grin) "Understated" would be the word for both Thrak or the Live video... - ProzaKc Blues is a hoot! I've played a lot of the Blues in my life, and would love to cover this at the next jam, heh heh. A friend of mine is a rather hardcore blues player, and when I mentioned that KC had written a blues tune - he looked at me and said "oh yeah, sure - probably one in 11/8"... -Pat plays very well on this CD. His rock roots show through, but so what - so would mine! (I wish...) He is rightfully part of the KC drummers tradition, playing great drums over some challenging music. For those of you joking that he has to count out loud for the odd-meter sections, just watch Bill during B'Boom on the video. He is staring straight ahead, his mouth is open a bit, and believe me - he's concentrating, hard! (Any drummer would - it takes many years of playing polyrhythms to feel comfortable. Some drummers never get it, or don't bother...) I do have to pick up Blue Nights though, just to get my Bruford fix... - FraKctured is my current fave. The delicate parts are reminiscent of early Genesis, but that middle section is just stunning!! When I was 10 years old, my older brother was listening to ITCOTKC, and I just couldn't get time figured out during that fast break in Schizoid Man. It wasn't until MUCH later that I finally got it. Now, here I am again with KC, trying to figure things out - and it doesn't matter that the band has already said it's in 15/8 time! Try and play along with it - yikes! I have GOT to see them play this stuff live!! (Do I sound excited?) All just my opinions, of course. Cheers, Mark -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before. -- Steven Wright --------------------------------------------------------- Come and visit my Webpages at: http://home.istar.ca/~marker/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 12:57:51 -0600 From: "Guido Vacano" Subject: Reading too much Elephant Talk I think, like Adrian Belew, I've been reading too much Elephant Talk. Once again, the release of new material from our favorite band has triggered a vast gush of "bicker bicker bicker, brouhaha, balderdash, bally-hoo" etc. "Criticism?" Yeah, I've seen that too, but too often, it's obscured by "Construcktion of Shite" and "Konstruktion of Krap" posts from disgruntled fanboys. How anyone manages to conclude that they're justified in publicly pissing on an album they don't like (or don't understand) is beyond me. If one cannot produce a more intelligent and articulate assessment of a King Crimson album, then maybe one is better suited to be an audient of Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boyz, or the Melvins. Criticism is fine. Stir up a lively debate over the benefits and disadvantages of V-drums, discuss picking exercises versus rhythm guitar, even cry about how you miss Tony Levin or Bill Bruford (heck, I miss John Wetton). But these "TCoL sucks" posts are pointless and obnoxious. As for The Construkction of Light, I love it. Far from being a retread of 70's KC, it beautifully incorporates the 70's approach with the 80's approach with modern elements resulting in a fresh but familiar sound. The only criticisms I would level at it are I don't care for "Coda"; it doesn't seem to "function" in the context of "Larks' Tongues IV", and the use of "kc" in lieu of "c" in a number of words. It's cute at first, but then . . . It's clear that the members of King Crimson read Elephant Talk. So to them, I want to say, "Thank you for caring about our thoughts and opinions (I mean, you must care to wade through all this kcrap), and thank you for another excellent album." Guido Guido N. Vacano, Ph.D. Research Associate Eleanor Roosevelt Institute http://eri.uchsc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:12:46 -0400 From: Andy Acunzo Subject: TCOL and dead threads "Miguel Farah F." wrote: >Say, Toby, how much more until TCOL becomes a dead thread? :-> > >[ I hear you. Watch this space - Toby ] Maybe I'm missing something, but why would discussion of TCOL be declared a dead thread? The first King Crimson album in five years was just released two days ago (in the U.S. anyway), and this is off-limits on a digest supposedly dedicated to discussion of King Crimson? Color me puzzled. Fave moment of TCOL so far: when Adrian clears his throat at the beginning of Oyster Soup. I love that! Play it for me spider fingers. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:17:05 -0500 From: nic dot roozeboom at philips dot com Subject: Kconspiracy Theory :-) While observing the track list for Project X' Heaven and Earth, the following powerful "realization" struck me: 1. "The Construkction of Light" is King Crimson giving us what we thought we wanted. (And judging from predominant commentary, we appear to be appalled by how closely the outcome has approximated our conservative, nostalgic or retrospective wishes.) 2. "Heaven and Earth" - the album, that is - allegedly by Project X, is in fact a manifestation of the true musical direction of King Crimson. Crazy? You betcha! (insert emoticon for playful paranoia) Nic PS I have yet to hear either - can't wait to be in a position for better-informed contradiction, after a few listens.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:38:07 +0100 From: Tim Bowness Subject: Angel Gets Caught In The Buffy Trap Expectation is everything, there's no doubt. Personally, I went into my TCOL listening experience with the weight of several friend's negative prejudices, the chorus of disapproval at ET and my own feeling that 'Thrak' was a brilliant, but charmless and overproduced homage to the mighty KC legacy as opposed to a great leap forward. As a result, I was genuinely shocked at how powerful, cohesive and occasionally beautiful a statement TCOL is. Overall, there seems to be a greater sense of communicative band interaction and a more effective and interesting use of texture than I'd heard with the double trio and the production, though dense and ever so V-drumtastic, gives the album a genuinely distinctive flavour which separates it from any previous KC release (Into The Frying Pan could be from no previous KC album despite the Discipline references). The band's legacy is being plundered, but in an enthusiastic way that is sonically very different from the source inspiration. More importantly, I also feel that for the first time since the reincarnation of the band there's a choked emotional engagement with the material and a genuine intensity in the performances. It feels like listening to King Crimson as opposed to listening to a band playing at being King Crimson (as Thrak sounded to me). Whereas Thrak seemed a little misguided in its attempts to please both the Crimso hardcore, the radio jocks (People) and the post-grunge explorers, TCOL just seems happy in its own interesting little world. To me, the guitars seem sharper and wilder and the harmonic language more interesting than on Thrak. TCOL, not the best KC album, but in my opinion a good and honest start to the new century. Sonic Youth's 'NYC Ghosts& Flowers' also comes recommended. -- tim dot bowness at virgin dot net http://www.collective.co.uk/noman http://www.collective.co.uk/darkroom http://www.collective.co.uk/samuelsmiles http://come.to/no-man ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:38:07 +0100 From: Tim Bowness Subject: Angel Gets Caught In The Buffy Trap - Part Two Just a brief thankyou to those ETer's who responded positively to my last posting (both publicly and privately) and a shameless bit of self-promotion: In addition to the latest update of No-Man News which you'll find below, you may be interested to know that I've worked on a track with David Torn that is probably going to be on his forthcoming album or single (or possibly both) and that I'm currently working on a bizarre album project with drummer Fudge Smith and soundtrack composer Stephen Bennett. No-Man have completed their new, as yet untitled, album. Itis probably the most unforced work the band have done. Far more intimate than previous releases, it contains some of the the most complex and some of the most basic music the band have ever produced. Due to Steve Jansen drumming on two thirds of the material and Porcupine Tree member Colin Edwin's bass presence on four tracks, the album probably has more of a band feel than any other No-Man release. The album will be released on Third Stone in August or September of 2000, closely followed by a mini-album of outtakes from the project. Third Stone have re-released No-Man's acclaimed 1993 album, 'Flowermouth'. Featuring performances from Robert Fripp, Mel Collins, Steve Jansen and jazz legend, Ian Carr, the album's unique combination of textural ambition, contemporary dance music and jazz-inflected solos, has made it the band's most popular release to date. Further information can be found at http://www.collective.co.uk/noman. Tim Bowness/Samuel Smiles are releasing a live album on Hidden Art. Called 'The Way We Used To Live', it's fairly evenly split between new and old songs/album and non-album material. Simultaneously there should be the release of a Hidden Art sampler featuring unreleased tracks from No-Man, TB/Samuel Smiles and Ex Wise Heads, a new band featuring PTree's Colin Edwin and ex-Henry Cow man Geoff Leigh. The Ex Wise Heads album is also going to be released on Hidden Art at around the same time (July/August 2000?). Tim Bowness/Samuel Smiles 'World Of Bright Futures' CD (featuring cover versions of King Crimson's 'Two Hands' and Peter Hammill's 'Ophelia') is still available through Voiceprint. TB/SS are also in the process of completing their 'Hanging On A Star - A Nick Drake Tribute' album. -- tim dot bowness at virgin dot net http://www.collective.co.uk/noman http://www.collective.co.uk/darkroom http://www.collective.co.uk/samuelsmiles http://come.to/no-man ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:19:15 EDT From: DrumSci at aol dot com Subject: The deception of V-Drums Chad Ossman writes: > Can someone (preferably a percussionist) please help illuminate in layman > terms what makes V-Drums a great advance over, say, the kind of electronic > kit Bill Bruford used in the 80s & 90s KC? OK, there are 2 big differences between V-Drums and Bruford's Simmons kits. 1st, The Simmons pad (and most other electronic drum pads) is basically rubber over a piece of wood that has a small pickup attached to it. The problem here is mainly a very hard, undrum like feel that has little sensitivity. The V-drum uses an actual small drum with a head. The head is a specially constructed one made of a woven (kevlar I believe) cloth instead of a plastic film like an acoustic drum. The advantage here is the ability to tension the head to get a "real" drum feel. The mesh head itself makes no sound. There is a small floating pickup mounted in a frame under the head. The sensitivity and triggering is much better than a standard pad. So, as sensitive as the V-Drums might be, there is still the problem of triggering and MIDI delay which Pat has mentioned in various places. What that means is no matter how good a drum picks up your signal of striking it, there is often still an annoying delay time between hitting the drum and the electronic sound being triggered and sent out through a loudspeaker. The other "advantage" would be in the electronics where there has simply been a whole world of advancements in the unit's digital capabilities. The V-Drum is miles ahead of the old Simmons SDX that Bruford still uses. But, and this is a big but, the V-Drum is made by Roland Corp. Their drum sounds have always been notoriously on the "thin" side. As good as the samples are, they always seem to lack next to other company's (Alesis, Korg, D-Drum,) samples. The big thing is whether you like Roland's sounds or not (a very subjective thing...). So, that's the short version....BTW, I am a drummer. In conclusion. I wish everyone would get off of Mr. Mastelloto's back! Is he Bill Bruford? No. But he is a brilliant drummer in his own right and he can probably out drum any drummer on this list. For those of you who keep dissing his old band, Mister Mister, even if you don't like the music, check out his very solid and inventive drumming. So stop this trash talking unless you can take his place in Crimso. And then apologize to Mr. Mastelloto for being so whiny about him. Ciao, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:33:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Bello Subject: The Setlist? I did not attend any of the Nashville concerts, but believe it or not, I have already heard a bootleg of concert no. 3, and the playlist was: Larks IV, The ConstruKction of Light, ProzaKc Blues, FraKctured, Dinosaur, One Time, Cage, The World's My Oyster, Into the Frying Pan, The Deception Of The Thrush, Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream, VROOOM, Three of a Perfect Pair and Heroes. Analysis? Well, let's remember these concerts were announced as rehearsals for the World Tour, and that is what exactly what they sounded like, rehearsals. As of today, thursday 25th of May, I have not yet received from DGM The ConstruKction of Light, and even though I have the whole album in mp3 format, I have not yet memorized it as I have all their other albums, so the only comment that comes into my mind regarding the live versions of the songs from TCOL is that they are slower than on the album, as if they are rehearsing them and getting in sync in order to play them live. I am sure that they will be faster as the tour unfolds and the songs are practiced. As far as the well known oldies is concerned, particularly the ones from Thrak, the absence of Bruford and Levin is well felt, as it is now 4 guys playing what 6 played before. Therefore, there are great holes in the Thrak material and Cage was given a semi-acoustic, fun-like treatment, while Adrian played a well executed completely acoustic version of Three of a Perfect Pair where he asked the audience to sing the chorus (Complicated, Aggravated, Oh, What a Perfect Mess). He there announced that they will tour the US in late October and November. Deception of the Thrush is well, the same noise creation Projekcts sort of thing we have all come to know. On VROOM, Robert played well, but either he or his guitar engineer made big mistakes regarding which sound setting to change when. David Bowie's Heroes, while being a fine song, sounded absolutely tired, lifeless and horrible. While comparisons between Pat and Bill are simply out of the question, maybe Pat would sound a little better playing, real drums, although this comment may be out of place here, since the quality of the bootleg does not fully allow me to determine if he is playing V-Drums or real ones, although I feel the cymbals sound really terrible. Trevor is doing what he gets paid to do and again comparisons are out of the question here also. So then, the groups rhythmic backbone really needs to improve. In short, I don't think I missed anything by not being at the Nashville rehearsals. I am however that by the time they get here to the US later this year, they will be very much better. Who knows, maybe Sometimes God Smiles and Bill and Tony will be back on board by then. Improbable but not impossible! Cheers! ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #678 ********************************