Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #676 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 676 Tuesday, 23 May 2000 Today's Topics: McCartney? "listening" but not hearing Re: Elephant Talk #674 Let's learn a lesson from 'Lizard' . . . KC perceptions Project X & TCoL Re: next batch of re-masters Oh no!, not another CoL review... Silly crimson tribute. Shirt Pocket Notes/First Grundge Songs? The Konstruction of Krap KC music on Hazell There's still hope in PROJEKCT X !! KING CRIMSON is not where you thought it TCOL and listener baggage TCOL I Have a Dream Greg Bendian and the opening band More TCOL Subject: 3 answers and more Bruford missed TCoL criticism Respect for the respectable? stupid reviews about TCOL Jobson Master musician Is Pat drumming really music? GIG REVIEW: Nashville review GIG REVIEW: 12th and Porter, Saturday, May 20, 2000...and other stuff... ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:20:53 -0500 From: "David F. Snyder" Subject: McCartney? >lyrics? If I hear him doing another McCartney-go-Crimson thing I'm >probably going to get sick. That's funny, I hear Lennon. I luv Adrian's sense of humor in his lyrics and the little tilt of his cap to the dazzling duo. I buy his albums too, they please me. David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 01:07:23 -0400 (EDT) From: HarlequinSound at webtv dot net (Jason Peterson) Subject: "listening" but not hearing It's been a long while since I've posted here but felt I must after reading the most recent digest. I have not yet heard the new release. I went to the the last Fripp soundscapes show at Bottom Line In NYC. My girlfriend and I were surrounded by Fripp/King Crimson "fans" who "knew their shit". They knew their shit so well they talked and talked and talked and laughed and talked and banged on the tables and talked. They talked about Jamie Muir. They talked about Bill Bruford. They talked about Adrian Belew. They talked about Fripp himself. They talked about Steve Hackett. They talked about Anthony Phillips. They talked about Gentle Giant, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, Focus, ELP, Yes, Pink Floyd, and talked and talked and talked. After the show was over I came away from the show feeling that I had learned a few kernels of prog info I hadn't known before (and didn't really care) but was rather sad that all the talk prevented me from hearing the show. I also learned about all the shows that everyone around us had gone to since 1970 and how amazing they all were or how some of them "sucked" It was also interesting that we heard these same blabbermouths outside of Bottom Line after the show talking about how disappointed they were in the music Fripp had just performed....it wasn't like this, or it wasn't like that, or why didn't he have more musicians on stage and "I remember when Fripp was 'great'". AND THESE PEOPLE CLAIMED TO BE FANS OF THIS MUSIC and these musicians - I'll bet my next paycheck that no matter what show they had been to they had talked/yelled their "fanboy" garbage through those as well. What complete and total and utter BULLSHIT coming from fans! My point is, that in order to enjoy music - any music - you need to drop you expectations/demands, shut your mouth and open your ears. It is even recommended that you shut your eyes as well. ANY other sensory distraction (including judgement/criticism) distorts and subtracts from the actual music. Your judgment or critique of it should be done later after digesting it (if at all). This is true of new releases and live shows. Jason Peterson Harlequin Sound & Design ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:32:59 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #674 Let's learn a lesson from 'Lizard' . . . I beg to differ............... >I was just reading ANOTHER batch of negative posts about 'TCoL' and I >thought about the first couple of times I listened to 'Lizard'. By the time >I bought 'Lizard' I had all the other 70s studio albums and thought they >were all wonderful (I still don't have 'Beat', 'ToaPP' or 'Thrak' yet, but >hey, I'm a student!) but I remeber listening to 'Lizard' for the first time >and being bitterly, bitterly disappointed with it. I didn't just think it >was a bad album by KC's standards I actually thought it was just a generally >bad album - simultaneously flowery and muddy, not to mention directionless. How utterly opposite was my reaction! It floored me instantly. It is a close tie, for me, w/ Larks` Tongues as their greatest work!!! (In my top 25 EVER!) LIZARD is a masterpiece, & I have *always* regarded it as such.... I often pine for more of same........... >But over the last couple of weeks it has hardly been out of my player - I >now regard it as a truly superlative album. It used to be my least >favourite KC LP without question but now it is extremely difficult, nay >impossible probably, to actually pick one out as being weaker - as difficult >as it is to pick one out as being stronger - than the rest. Have still yet to hear TCoL (except for on my puter, which doesn`t count), so I`ll reserve opinion, but my initial reaction has not been good. I love ProjeKCts One & Three, though. If I were to pick a weakest, (aside from Earthbound`s many drawbacks), I`d say it is BEAT, (& even that has some fantastic stuff on it). KC is just a superlative band. Even their least appealing material is light years beyond the average "coprolite" being flung at us constantly by the media. I just hope they make it to Dallas after the European tour. I need to see them no matter what.........(last time was in 1973!!!!!) Though I *did* catch P-3 recently. > KC have been near perfect thus far and we must remember that Yes >made 'Tales From Topographic Oceans' Screw the critics! YES`s TfTO is a monster, too. (.....Even if BB was never happy with the material, & therefore left). Alan White is no BB, but he does a fine job on this, & it`s a wonderful Yes album. No RELAYER, or Close to the Edge, but a superb release, nonetheless! (Go back to it & check out "The Ancient" again. Fecking incredible!!!) >and ELP made 'Benny The Bouncer' Well, that`s just a joke,(one of many), of course. (Not fair to mention this in the same breath as TfTO). ~Craig S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:52:53 +1000 From: "Tony Greig" Subject: KC perceptions Hello Crimophiles, I am still waiting for my cd of TCoL to arrive in the mail, so I am trying hard not be drawn into any preconceived ideas on the new recording, especially from sound bytes via the net (although these were much appreciated). I learnt many a year ago that the only thing that matters in music is if it moves you or not! Either you like it or you do not, it is as simple as that, and I have been known to be very judgemental on many a new release from my favourite artists over the years. Debates, arguments and all the comments regarding what we liked or didn't like were always in the air, and I am still critical of production, sound, technique, melody and feel, etc! Today I do not give a toss as to what anyone else thinks, as long as I am enjoying the music for what it is! Every artist that I enjoy has released the odd disappointing album/song over the years, but we still seem to be searching for that 'something' when we purchase new or previously unreleased music. When we seem to reach a conclusion that it is not the way we think it should be, we are disappointed (again), and can become critical, judgemental, analytical, ignorant etc! The musicians playing in any version of King Crimson, are human beings simply doing something that they enjoy doing at that given moment in time. They too may not like certain things about their recordings, sounds, melodies, performances etc, but that is for their own judgement and they can be as critical as they like with themselves if they feel that way inclined. Give the cd away if you do not like it (someone else may like it!), play it to death if you do like it, or if you are unsure, put it away for a rainy day and you may be surprised. I have had albums/songs hit me years later and I think, why didn't this happen back then? Was I not ready for it back then, or was I being too judgemental, critical etc, and therefore, not potentially allowing it to do it's thing? Looking forward to owning and hearing TCoL, and dare I say it, keeping my construKctive criticism etc, to myself or at the very minimum, maybe a complaint or three to a few friends. Long live the King, the King is not dead! etc, etc ,etc. Cheers ,Tony Greig. P.S. Still hoping for a concert or three in Australia later this year, but we must not expect anything, only hope! This garden universe, vibrates complete Some we get a sound so sweet Vibrations reach on up to become light And then through gamma, out of sight Between the eyes and ears there lie The sounds of colour, and the light of a sigh And to hear the sun, what a thing to believe But it's all around if we could but perceive To know ultraviolet, infra-red and x-rays Beauty to find in so many ways Two notes of the chord that's our full-scope But to reach the chord is our life's hope And to name the chord is important to some So they give it a word, and the word is................. The Moody Blues, In Search of the Lost Chord 1968 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:42:04 +0000 From: maurizio comandini Subject: Project X & TCoL Hi, I'm interested in trading a mint copy of Project X "Heaven and Earth" CD for a mint copy of "The ConstruKction of Light" CD. Magus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:16:56 +0200 (MEST) From: Marcus Sigismund Subject: Re: next batch of re-masters Hello out there! I have read in an Rolling Stone-interview that Robert has only done the four already known re-masters, yet. He mentioned that it is a matter of time that the next will follow. Perhaps we have to wait until their recent tour has ended. Greetingd form Germany, Marcus =8-) -- Marcus Sigismund Liebfrauenstr. 38 47053 Duisburg Tel.: 0203/6694767 E-Mail: M dot Sigismund at gmx dot de ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:47:26 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Oh no!, not another CoL review... My copy was a bit delayed as I ordered it with Heaven and Earth, which of course only hit the mail at th eend of last week... Impressions over a weekend are: Not my "desert island" Crim disc, but well worth the price of admission. A couple of weak spots, but most albums by anyone, Crim included, have these. Oyster Soup I found doesn't live up to its wonderful title, and Larks IV is at present in "score draw, needs more listening to decide", but everything else has been on repeat play while I've had the chance. Good stuff! So, what about the Very Dopey Accoustic Drums Debate? Depends what you want out of the electronic drums: if you want something that sounds just like an accoustic set, you will be disappointed, but if, like me, you want something to provide a rhythmic base for the music, they do just fine. There are times when I'd prefer the tone of accoustics, but there again the same can be said of the guitars, Fripp's midi-piano, etc., and if the logistics and strategy make V-drums the way to go for now they're certainly good enough to keep things moving along. And of course there are times, as with Bill's use of electronics in the 80s lineup, where electronic works better, and Pat's working them in ways that suit them well for the most part. As for the "I miss Bill" posts, well, I do as well, but if Bill was there and not Pat, I'd miss Pat. But either is more than capable of holding down the drum stool on their own, so unless you've decided in advance you'll hate the drumming, there's plenty of superb work in there. What about pX? It's a bloody awful noise for a lot of the running time. A very sublime bloody awful noise, and like the P-Box I like it a great deal. Thoroughly recommended to anyone who liked the previous ProjeKct work. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:24:59 +0100 From: James Beard Subject: Silly crimson tribute. Hey there. I thought there may be some Elephant Talkers who would be interested in a little tune I and a friend recorded about 3 years ago. It is kind of a silly tribute to King Crimson - we were amused by the word 'Thrak', so we thought we'd use it as a song lyric. Anyway, you can download it as an MP3 so long as you don't mind waiting a little while. I wanted to preserve the quality, so it's 2.2Mb. You can find a link to it at the bottom of the following page on my website: http://www.geocities.com/hal.geo/may21_00.htm Hardcore fans - please don't take this too seriously! James. -- James Beard Production Runner - Qtwo http://www.unique.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 05:54:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Basile Subject: Shirt Pocket Notes/First Grundge Songs? Shirt Pocket Notes; 1.Still haven't listened to a note of TCOL. The antisipation is now part of the fun! 2.Most of the post on ET concerning TCOL seem positive to me?! So why are Eters so upset about a minority of opinions, that many will change later? 3.How many Crimson Songs have taken you years to fall in love with?! (Me LTIA1, took over 10 years for me to get it!)Aquired taste wind up being your favorites! 4. How many Crimson songs do you have to see LIVE to get,and to love. (Me?,SHELTERING SKY, RED,more) 5. Bought EXPOSURE on CD this weekend. Is DISINGAGED the first GRUNDGE song ever?! Maybe ELEPHANT TALK &Thela HUN GIN GEE second?! Breathless,HERE COMES THE FLOOD & CHICAGO is KING CRIMSON! 6. Excuse my spelling, as always..... Warmly, Basile By The Three Rivers Hope to See Crimson there! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:32:32 -0400 From: Thomas Kozal Subject: The Konstruction of Krap Found the new KC at normanssounds in the Village, a $4.99 promo copy. And before you complain, Mr. Fripp, take it up with Virgin or whatever big money label you got to finance your recording of picking exercizes. They are the ones who let this out. I will be doing a lengthy review and posting it on places like Amazon, but my inital thoughts are it seems that there are two overriding themes in this release: The first being the recording of fingering and picking exercizes that would be better left to the practice room. The second is: and where's Belew during these? He might lend a touch of humanity, or just plain MUSICALITY to these proceedings. And where is Belew you might ask? Well, when he is around he is strangled by production, his voice altered in most circumstances. Prozack Blues' voice treatment gets old fast, and actually adds little to the tune. Besides guys, do you know what Prozac actually does? If you think you do, it does for you the OPPOSITE of what it does for the rest of the public. The best word I can think of for Belew's performance is "strangled". Strangled by the production and the ego of Fripp. Now I know why Levin and Bruford are gone. They needed to breathe again. The only real surprise is that Trey Gunn managed to do a good imitation of a bass player using his Warr guitar. Much better than his playing on the Sylvian-Fripp stuff. Coming after buying the gatefold reissues of the first 4, this release was better left in the can, or as a club release. It is not major distribution level quality. A BIG dissapointment. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:56:57 +0100 From: Clive Backham Subject: KC music on Hazell In ET #675, Stewart Stirling" wrote about the use of _Fracture_ as incidental music during an episode of the UK TV show "Hazell". As I read his post I was thinking: "No, you've got it wrong, they used the finale from _Starless_ (the manic bit with the horn section)". However, the scene he described isn't the one I remember, which had Hazell smashing up a car in a frenzy (Triumph Stag, IIRC). So, someone on the show was clearly a Crimson fan. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:44:38 +0200 From: "Sebastien PETIT" Subject: There's still hope in PROJEKCT X !! KING CRIMSON is not where you thought it is... Hi ! That's the first time i contribute...Trying to be short...and i think it could be IMPORTANT ! Yes i was actually disappointed by what-you-know, especially by the SOUND recording... I also looked for Projekcts R&D ideas and found nothing.... ...until DGM sent me for radio airplay PROJEKCT X !!!!!! This one is great, completely different: some of you have listenned to last tracks of TCOL and just can't understand this is absolutely the same band ! Finally they could be creative, awesome, innovative, with fantastic and surrealistic alien sounds (Mastellotto is one of the producer now...) ! Be careful: this one is only sent via mail order ! But this is 70+ minutes of pure best of Projekcts !!! More than the half of the music sounds improvised, but still far more structured than Trakattak and even Projekts 3 & 4, yet in the same vein. I know we don't love KC for the same reasons: if, like me, you can't stand "The Frying Pan" because it seems that it could have been played by Blur or Smashing pumpkins for a MTV clip, then give KC a second chance buying PROJEKCT X ! I suppose people would now be afraid to be as disapointed as for TCOL so i thought it was my job to tell how i would prefer pay for Projekct X than pay for TCOL ! :-) Best regards, Sebastien Petit (petit dot sebastien at online dot fr) OPPOSITION DE PHASE, An avant-prog and creative new musics radio show. Europe: http://petit.sebastien.free.fr/menu.html World: http://www.multimania.com/sleeprev/menu.html Professional mails at: RCV/ OPPOSITION DE PHASE 41 bvd Vauban 59046 LILLE cedex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:01:21 -0400 From: David Carswell Subject: TCOL and listener baggage In ET 674 Conor D. posted some very interesting opinions concerning the reactions to TCOL and, I feel, hit the nail on the head. KC fans have endured some 32 years of personnel and stylistic changes and have still remained enthralled (I defy you to name any other band that has gone through this many changes and still survived....). Through the 70s each Crimson release seemed to signal a new direction, if not a complete about-face - but it was still Crimso (young listeners still have difficulty believing that ITCOTCK, Earthbound and Red came from the same band....well they didn't, but they did....confused yet?) - The 80s saw some cohesion with the Trilogy and the 90s saw a fresh approach to the experimentation of the earlier works. TCOL is just the latest in a long line of "visions" for the King. I have read so many posts claiming "it doesn't sound like KC" - well duh! Tell me - what does KC sound like? Are you people trying to tell me that every KC album over the last 32 years has had a cohesive sound? Listen again! This is what makes KC the band they are - innovation, unpredictability and abrupt changes in direction. Some posts have complained that TCOL "rips off" older approaches - well KC have always paid homage to their own past with fresh and inventive arrangements - much of THRAK! harkened back to the ITCOTCK and WOP albums, but with a new, up-dated vision. You should all know by now, if you have been fans of this group for any length of time, that ALL baggage must be checked at the door, the moment a new KC release hits your ears. You should also know that nothing coming from the KC camp should ever be judged on one listening - I pity those of you who will write off a KC release because it doesn't fit the mold you have made for it - you run the risk of missing out on some of the best that KC has to offer. KC cannot be pigeon-holed into any predictable style or line-up and the moment you find yourself able to do so, expect the next release to through that out the window - because if you have noticed it, guaranteed Fripp & Co. have noticed it too - That doesn't mean every KC fan is going to be thrilled with every release, but it does mean that that which has made KC so fresh and innovative will continue. Stop trying to over-analyze or predict directions for KC - just enjoy..... David Carswell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:20:53 GMT From: "Formentera Man" Subject: TCOL I just can't believe all of the crap that people send in here. What makes you all think that anyone is interested in your negative, hyberbolic rantings about the new album? If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't go to the concerts and for god's sake, don't come back to ET, so there will be more space for true fans. Nobody cares about how hurt you are or how much you miss Bill or how bad Pat sucks. GET A LIFE!!!!!! PS Love ya Pat and Trey!!! wouldn't trade ya!! (Not like they will ever see this, I wouldn't come here if I were them...no offense I hope, Toby...you do a wonderful job!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:44:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Cohen Subject: I Have a Dream Can someone explain to a chronically out-of-it audient what the deal is with "I Have a Dream"? A few weeks ago, I was reading the drama of how this song had been eliminated from the album "TCoL" because (apparently) Fripp and the guy from Virgin didn't like it. Now, I see it's listed on the tracklist of "TCoL" on the DGM website, and someone is posting guitar tabulature for it. So is it on the album now? When was it restored? It's not going to be on all copies except the USA version or something horrible like that, is it? Please forgive me if these questions have been answered already... TIA, --Art ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:12:38 +0200 From: "Marcin Gokieli" Subject: Greg Bendian and the opening band Steve Smith wrote (hi Steve!) > Hearing this excellent group live at the Knitting Factory a little while > back is the closest I expect to come in this lifetime to hearing the > Larks' version of Crimson blowing live (right down to the > guitar/violin/bass/drums lineup). And right now Bendian is performing > with guitarist Richard Leo Johnson (who shares management with Trey Gunn > and the California Guitar Trio), opening for... you got it, King > Crimson. So maybe Cline/Gauthier/Stinson will be the preferred > listening yet another Crimson band bus... One question: who is gregg Bendian? I know this name quite well, but can't remember where do I know it from... I suppose he's on one of the cd i do have, but can't think of looking for him (and I do believe Steve knows quite well which cds i use to have...) BTW: does the band open for Crim also in Europe? And talking about the TCOL, i'm just in the worst position around here... My copy was STOLEN together with a portable CD player... and i just started to like ..;-((( But in my opinion the rhythm section was the strongest point of the recording- a really new element. They played very wild, quick stuuff. Trey and Pat do some excellent work - and they are not afraid of the previous legendary BB/TL lineup... Marcin Gokieli marcing at mospan dot pl >Thanks to this excellent device >man shall reenter paradise. Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:23:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Cohen Subject: More TCOL Andrew wrote: >I haven't heard any of the new album and I'm a little disturbed at the >amount of comment there has been in et. I'm not disturbed. I'm amused. The amount of pompous, self-righteous abuse hurled at this album has made me anticipate it almost as much as "VROOOM" (probably my most-anticipated CD of the 90s). I'd be willing to bet that any album that pisses off this many obnoxious, pretentious twits is probably going to be pretty damn good. --Art ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 00 14:17:42 MDT From: claus dot poulsen at usa dot net Subject: Subject: 3 answers and more Hello, Crimsonauts In the last digest, Pierre (DCHARBONNIER at wanadoo dot fr) asked: "I'd like to know ( rather : to be sure) about the solos in the new release of KC. Who plays what ?" Well, all solos are Belew, except the guitar-as-piano solo at the end of Oyster Soup (which is Fripp). Mastelotto wrote about this in his diary/notebook during the recording. AND obviously the solo in Heaven and Earth D a v i d B e a r d s l e y (xouoxno at virtulink dot com) asks: "As for Fripp, I think he owns a Fernandez" He must be one of the first users of the Fernandez sustainer pick-up system. I think he started using it on "The sailor's tale" on "Islands". At least I'm sure he got one by the end of 1972, because you can hear his sustaining note FADING IN on LIVE recordings (the bruford/cross/wetton/fripp incarnation). That would be impossible without a magnetic feedback of some kind. ..and then Gnad Markus (MGnad at rundschau dot co dot at) asks if Gordon Haskell ever sang with The League Of Gentlemen What does that mean???? Did he join them onstage? Well, in the old days before Giles Giles & Fripp, Fripp and Haskell had a band called The League Of Gentlemen (and it must have been very different from the 80's-band of the same name). Check it out on the family tree in the Frame by Frame box. Well, I have an idea (I had a dream): how about collecting all these facts that we discuss - maybe a new database, or a very large FAQ of some kind. I know it would take a lot of time and effort, but we - in this forum - are the experts on this, and we could collect quite a bit of knowledge........ just an idea.... Just consider how much gets lost - what did they discuss in this digest 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 years ago, and what did they find out? Does anyone have an overview of this large amound of knowledge??? [ Claus, we already have a FAQ at www.elephant-talk.com. Check it out. -- Toby ] Has anyone ever heard the (ridiculous) roumor that crimson once started recording a 11-record set, but had to quit it because a lot of fires happened? Is Tony Levin jewish? Why is there "no smoking" at KC concerts - any one has astma? (very curios) Anyone of you going to the Copenhagen concerts - can I help you out on anything? Thank you, Claus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:13:59 +0000 From: "Ignacio Cuevas Garza" Subject: Bruford missed Definetly Mastelotto is a good drummer, otherwise Fripp would have never recruited him. But definitely Bruford has a lot more expression on his instrument. Something is missing on TCOL, it is not just about his V drums, but his very soul. I hope Bill comes back someday. In another thing, just a tip for guitarrists: Steve Howe interactive CD is incredible: it contains detailed lessons of his best bits. Excellent lessons and a very entretaining challenge for Howe's admirers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:30:37 +0200 From: Piotr Zlotkowski Subject: TCoL criticism To some very critical critics of criticism: Let us dislike TCoL - we let you like it. This is only our subjective and personal opinion, because there are no objective and impersonal opinions. Don't force us to like it, do not convince us that we are not listening correctly, for it's offensive and just ridiculous. Don't you understand that we are neither small minded nor biassed, we just don't like it! We do not have to, we are free people. But it actually seems that you are small minded and intolerant. Peter -- PRZEWODNIK PO ZAPOMNIANYCH GRUPACH ROCKOWYCH: http://www.amwaw.edu.pl/~pzlotko ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:58:44 EDT From: Ctao at aol dot com Subject: Respect for the respectable? Following are responses prompted by the recent flurry of activity surrounding the release of TCoL . My points have been carefully considered, as I hope to avoid some of the personal "noise" that one encounters in the general din that is ET. >>It seems Robert and Adrian sat down and tried hard to be as big dickheads as they could.>> Why Macahan equates polymetric music with phalluses and craniums is anybody's guess, but at least he was thoughtful enough to use "seems". Remind me not to play with the cat, though! BruceR offers these feelings: >> Simply put I miss Bill's drumming. The arrangements are quite solid, but I feel they miss Bruford's technical expertise. The punctuation on riffs is MISSING. >> BB's drumming is wonderful, so I can relate to the emotional component of the first statement, but then the logic loses me. The arrangements, it would seem to me, are incapable of missing BB's technical expertise. Not so for certain listeners, apparently. Anyone with a decent working knowledge of the instrument and its players would not feel compelled to relegate PM to secondary technical status, IMO. BB and PM are both highly accomplished musicians. Different styles and approaches? Certainly! I cannot fathom why the PM/BB non-issue causes so many bug-outs in ET-land. Regarding "punctuation" of riffs, what has this observation to do with PM's "expertise"? Is it conceivable that that Pat's approach was intentional? That he might even find such rhythmic unisons a wee bit tired? I suppose e. e. cummings' work is also plagued by such technical difficulties, and that Rothko painted the way he did because he had no alternative. (BTW, much of Bruford's KC work has little to do with typical rock "punctuation", serving instead to provide polyrhythmic counterpoint to the prevalent time signature or accent structure). This not-so-subtle dig at PM seems to me to be an attempt at rationalizing a primarily emotional response after the fact. I suspect that a lot of this goes on in ET, from what I've read. Andrew Jones posts: >>The new Crimson CD is a patchy beast for me- its beginning to open up after a few listens though.>> This is really encouraging - a mind that remains open, ears that can bear sustained attention. It's not the perceived that has changed, after all, but the perceiver. >>1 Ade's voice is processed on all the songs all the time- robbing the frequently bizarre lyrics of emotional or intellectual impact;>> This is where Andrew loses me. I don't see how the use of effects, even when extreme, can do this. I can see how heavy processing can lead to a lack of perceived "intimacy", but I've never found KC to be about that sort of intimacy, per se (of course, this is one listener's opinion). Any vocal that does not travel straight from singer's mouth to listener's ear has been processed (that is to say, any recorded vocal - be it stored on CD, LP, 8 Trak, or wax cylinder). Mics, compressors, etc. all color the source, to one degree or another. Why not just state that you don't care for the sounds being used? That would reveal the subjective nature of the observation quite plainly. >>2. The drum sound- Pat's a great drummer but the electronic drum kit doesn't get that across;>> This seems to reflect a bias against electronic drum kits (the use of which our cherished BB pioneered so artfully in the "Discipline" era, as has been pointed out). Again, why not just state that you don't care for the sounds PM's currently working with? Or is this a mix issue? Brad Wilmot's post made a lot of sense to me: >>Fractured and Fracture are distant cousins, not a rehashThe band can't win Where they are innovative the fans are disgusted by the changes. Where they quote from the musical vocabulary they created in the past they are stagnant and derivative. This would be understandable from the uninitiatedbut it is unbelievable from the fans... (I) have stayed a fan through all the changes. Some were more disorienting than others, but active listening always yielded great musical experience once the shock wore off.>> As a tadpole of 17, I was shocked and dismayed (though not deterred) upon first hearing Discipline. Within a week, I was a true believer. Would I have stuck it out for a month? I'd like to think so - I knew there were strong forces at work, more than I could comprehend through a few (or even a hundred) listenings. (This was similar to my first experiences with Edgar Varese, Morton Feldman, Dufay, and even Eno). Listening, too, takes practice (it can be as "musical" an activity as playing - indeed, it's part of the same enchilada). Keeping things fresh and alive, while respecting an established creative trajectory, is a Herculean task, to say the least. I think the guys are deserving of a bit more patience - samples, triggers, personnel shifts and all. - Conor www.mp3.com/GeographicalTongue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:33:01 -0300 From: "carlos henrique moller" Subject: stupid reviews about TCOL hi you all ! after reading all the posts about TCOL ( and i don't have it yet, but that's not important... ) i came to some conclusions: 1- the CD is out there, no matter if we like it or not. as far as i know, there was never a KC release that the main aim was to please the fans, or whoever ! 2- stop the comparisons !! PM is not BB, TG is not TL. they all have their own style, no matter we like or not, again ! they're such fine musicians to deserve this kind of vibe. 3- ok, PM was the drummer in Mr.Mister. so what ? TL played with Neil Sedaka, Liza Minelli and Ivan Lins (this one i know, being brazilian: sucks big time !). BB played with Genesis ! and there's no Peter Gabriel to gave him a little credit ! does this make them any better or worse ? they have to work, god damn it ! 4- oh, the drum sound ! hello !! wasn't it perfect clear that the next Crimson would be an electronic one ? what's the big deal ? the group sounds great ? fine ! the overall sound sucks ? that just the opinion of a particular listener, under a particular situation ( like listening the Real Audio !). 5- whether an album is good or not depends on so many things. and the one that really helps is to be open ears to it ! i felt that many people here said "oops, there's no BB, no TL, i'm supposed not to like it at all, because the other guys are perfect strangers to KC world and they don't deserve being where they are. who are they, anyway ?" 6- last question: if the album had BB drumming the acoustic, TL playing the stick, but the same repertoire, would it be any better ? i don't think so. if the material sucks, there's no one that could fix it ! i'll buy it and listen very carefully, because i always find beauty in any of the KC releases. this one wouldn't be different ! carlos h moller brazil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:35:50 -0400 From: Tommy Kochel Subject: Jobson Has anyone else noticed that Mr. Jobson's keyboard style bears striking resemblance to that of Keith Emerson and that his violin playing almost copies that of Jean-Luc Ponty? Especially on the first "UK" album. Just curious. Tommy Kochel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:55:41 -0400 From: "jonathan badger" Subject: Master musician In the internet broadcast interview with RF on the Eden site, RF mentions a name. It is the name of a man who RF calls a master musician. The first name is Pablo, I believe. What is the surname? I didn't catch it. jb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:03:17 +0200 From: "Vab" Subject: Is Pat drumming really music? My words are all carried away, do you remember? All you guys talking about Mastelotto not being the greatest thing since slice bread and getting all wound up by drumming set ups and techniques and such is starting get me all riled up! The thing is, drumming alone is BORING!! Its noise. Bang Bang Bang!!! Ok, sure dummers provide the beat to a song (those that do that kind of thing!), but what would any KC tune be without Fripp's soaring guitar work or Gunn's or Belew's vocals? I can certainly imagine them without the drums. Just listen to Trio. No drums there. Not needed!!! That's why I love Soundscapes! Not a drum to be heard, not even a sound that mimics a drum. I've never really understood why so many bands take fro granted that they need a drummer. More bands should shake up that misconception and try things without one. "On soft grey mornings widows cry, the wise men share a joke" (P.S.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:21:41 -0400 From: Dave & Racquel Subject: GIG REVIEW: Nashville review And what a time we had. It was nice to run into Crim heads from everywhere. We met and spoke w/Crimmers from all points US, including FL, WA, MD, DC, VA, TX, IL, AR, TN, NJ, NY, not to mention the few from England. Richard Leo Johnson played with a drummer previously unseen by myself and Racqui, playing several tunes off his Fingertip Ship CD. The drummer was Gregory Bindi (sp? someone help me) someone w/an impressive resume to include Pat Methany, as reported by Richard. His playing was flawless and the drums added a whole new dimension. The drummer was very talented, obviously highly trained and very innovative, making sounds by playing stick1-on-stick2 while stick 2s tip was against the snarehead, playing drum edges, etc. He also played conga-type drums (wide top/tapered-tube like bottoms) and sometimes played his kit sans sticks. These were the finest performances by Richard I have witnessed, to total probably 5, including these 2. Richard had the stage for approx. each of the two nites we caught. After the snack, the people were chomping at the bit for the main courseand that it was. From a lounge version of Cage (that bordered on folk at times) to the raging fit of FraKctured to the less cacophonic One Time the sound remained clear and uncluttered. Mastelotto is indeed a beast. Eyes wide open and mouth agape, obviously counting practically everything and right on top of all of it. Fripp regularly challenged Adrian musically, without a word. Constantly watching everything, apparently not playing his usual role of conductor, Fripp actually whoo! d a few times the first night, getting well wrapped up in the moment. Fripps face may have nearly cracked when the grin broke wide enough to actually expose his teeth. Gunn was his normal, usual, AMAZING self, dropping bass lines from Warr Guitar & Baritone guitar like molten metal. Hot, viscous, unstoppable. Adrians stunt guitaring was in great form, minus the bar he dropped in a chorus after a lead in (something not from the new album), getting him looks and smiles from Uncle Bob and a good chuckle from the crowd. With a smile and a shrug Ade was right back in the thick. BTW, Adrian changes tuning mid-FraKctured. The second night contained a big surprise, tho, as during FraKctured, Fripps rack took a poop, causing Fripp to stand and give the old (see: finger across neck motion kill it). Fripp then re-booted his rack, made a verbal point of ignoring a request to take it from the top, had a short discussion with the others, and with two clicks of the drum sticks, rocketed right back into sonic battle, unscarred. I actually met some people that had a chance to benefit from my http://www.midnightmecca.com/vbpro/crimso page, which did my heart good. The low-light of the show was the sales pitch, post show night onePRE & POST show 2d night. That was a bit much. Patricia was really hawking the Fripp unplugged speaking tapes. There is a sampler that was available, which probably did better than the nearly $100 for 9 tapes set. That is a bit much, eh? Maybe they could release them as single tapes for the people that dont want that much Fripp all at once? Great shirts, grabbed one of them and an Ade Coming Attractions CD as well as PX Heaven & Earth and RLJs Fingertip Ship Anyway, a great time was had by all that I spoke with. Definitely a memorable occasion. I cant wait until they come back to the states post-Asia. Set lists: 1st night: Frying Pan The ConstruKction of Light Oyster Soup PXs Heaven & Earth Dinosaur One Time Lounge Version of Cage Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream Vrooom FraKctured ProzaKc Blues LtiA IV > I Have a Dream Ade acoustic ToaPP P3s Deception of the Thrush Bowies Heroes 2d night: ProzaKc Blues TCoL Oyster Soup FraKctured Dinosaur One Time Lounge: Cage SSEDD Vrooom ???? PXs Hat in the Middle ???? Frying PanLarks IV > I Have a Dream Ade acoustic ToaPP P3s Deception of the Thrush Bowies Heroes Hope someone got the Sunday matinee & night lists. Thanx, guys, for a great time. Now, back into the frying pan. Dave Steimling/Racquel Corpus (DE) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:21:35 PDT From: "Bill Colrus" Subject: GIG REVIEW: 12th and Porter, Saturday, May 20, 2000...and other stuff... Hello all! A few refelctions on Krimson's gig Saturday night... ...I liked it....a lot... There was some confusion early on as to how to get in the f'in door, and a long line, but once the door was opened, my wife and I had time to eat dinner and still catch the opening act...The waiter at 12th and Porter was very understanding of our "plight" and was well compensated for his hurried service... On to the show.... It was quite good. I haven't heard the new album, but I enjoyed the new material....sure some "re-tooling" of prior stuff, but hey, even re-tooling Krimson is better than third eye blind, matchbox twenty, live, or any other band getting a lot of airplay these days... FraKctured might be based on Fracture, but watching Robert play it is a test to see how many times you say "Damn!" in five minutes...Robert's rig crashed during the piece...Adrian kidded that Robert stopped because his "butt got tired" and an audience member shouted out "take it from the top", at which time Robert politely declined, and picked it up in the middle... Some highlights: -great fans, met a few nice people -"Cage"-Adrian playing ACOUSTIC with the band (TREY playing some sort of mini-bass....smaller than a Steinberger) -All four band members were SMILING for virtually the entire show...no pretentious crap...It's good to see people having FUN with music...That's the point...So, stop whining, everyone, about the new album!!!! You have freedom...if you don't like it, turn it off... -cover of bowie's "Heroes" to close the show -trey and pat were excellent...They got sort of "covered-up" during the Thrak tour, so it was great to HEAR every note they played...I'm beginning to enjoy the v-drums... -I like this band as a four piece...i LOVE Tony and Bill, but, Adrian may have been right...six MAY have been too much...four gives more breathing room...i think this music LIVES more with less people...only an opinion...I LOVE ALL OF CRIMSON's WORK, but this was a looser version...more playful, spontaneous, and accessible personality-wise, I thought..can't wait to see the band after they've been on the road awhile... Also... -No pre-Thrak material, other than a solo acoustic Adrian "Three of a Perfect Pair" (with great audience participation), which is not necessarily a highlight...Would have liked to see trey and pat "play" bill and tony on "Frame by Frame" or "Dig Me"...would be interesting.. well, that's a very tired rambling, ill-organized review... by the way, I recommend ALL Krimson fans to check out the new live album by BUILT TO SPILL, and respond with your thoughts...they're different, but good...REALLY good... later- Bill Colrus ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #676 ********************************