Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #664 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 664 Wednesday, 3 May 2000 Today's Topics: ebow Belew on ProzaKc Blues Thanks for asking Septober Energy Eric, not Arthur The Colour of Shite THE YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE TO KING CRIMSON C.D. belew records... Re: Lost Fripp release Give me a break, quit yer bitchin' Bootlegs sunday all over the world "Turkish Tea"; Berkeley David Cross Re: "Belew's" voice in ProzaKc Blues - KC appearance E - bows and RF's set up Great Deceiver Mute in the studio / on stage Recent Crimson Releases ET and the DGM Guestbook ConstruKction Thoughts ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 11:53:42 -0400 From: Joseph Shelby Subject: ebow other bands/artists that feature the ebow in action include Big Country and David Bowie (its how the main guitar sound is generated in "Heroes", both studio and most live versions i've seen...) Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:34:03 -0700 (PDT) From: sean hewitt Subject: Belew on ProzaKc Blues Hello all, Valerie Le Goff writes: "In Et #662, Louis Sormany writes : > - "ProzaKc Blues" is very strange: never before, KC had played blues. > Belew's voice is very special! "Indeed, and it couldn't be stranger, since it's not him who sings on this song ! It seems like you've missed this information, Louis, but during the recording of TCoL, Mr Fripp reported in his (always informative and often entertaining) diary that a guest (I cannot remember his name) was recording vocals for this song. I was a little surprised to hear that it's in fact the vocals for the first song of the album, but I feel this particular singer adds to the roughness of the song." Sorry but this is wrong. Adrian sings all the lead vocals on TCOL. But maybe he uses a humorous pseudonym from time to time - like on ProzaKc Blues! Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:39:54 -0400 From: "Eric / Susan Young" Subject: Thanks for asking My Goodness, you Crimsonfolks sure are a nice breed! I wish to thank you for asking about my ''nice little story'', from the ET # 662. So far nineteen people have asked about it and have been very kind in responses. I'm hopeful that you all enjoyed. Thank you for letting me share it. I wouldn't dare just put it up on ET, for it is so long; but I'd be happy to if asked. It's remarkable. (The photos are not digitally formatted, I regret) Bye for now, and thanks again my friends. Eric Young ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 16:50:26 -0500 From: "Lake Hearne" Subject: Septober Energy I had Centipede: Septober Energy on vinyl for years (and did not listen to it very often), and recently acquired it on cd. It sounds like a very good vinyl copy was used for the source, but still well worth the money. To my ears it conjures what the "Islands" studio musicians (greatly expanded) would have sounded like improvising without the "jamming" aspects which filtered into the 71-72 KC touring unit. Also, after such a long time between listens I was shocked at how much some sections sounded like primitive, big-band Larks' Tongues in Aspic (complete with the same screeches a la the Talking Drum - Larks Pt. 2 segue, real violins, tinkley percussion intros, etc.). Don't buy it expecting a Larks demo, but amazing similarities definitely are there. Has Fripp ever spoken about the influence, if any, Keith Tippett had on him during that period. And which came first, Septober Energy or Fripp's ideas to substitute violin for sax and add a percussionist? Imagine where KC would have gone with Tippett on board full time after Islands. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 23:38:11 +0100 From: John Peacock Subject: Eric, not Arthur > Steve Smith said: > > I'll admit that I didn't remember the embryonic versions [of Happy Families] on > 'Epitaph.' Are these, > perhaps, the "covers" of the British "light classical" standard 'The Happy Lagoon' > by Arthur Coates? I hadn't thought of that... Do you mean "By the Sleepy Lagoon" by Eric Coates (a.k.a. the theme from Desert Island Discs)? I have a growing affection for all this overblown, sentimental music which makes Loungecore look like ... well, King Crimson. Thrak era. And the king of lightly classical cheese, Albert Ketelby (who wrote "In a Monastery Garden"). I suppose Gustav Holst (writer of "Mars", of course - very prolific, but unknown, really, apart from "The Planets") fits in here too, although he does have a higher critical profile. It calls out to me as someone who used to watch the test card when we were small (because there was, literally, nothing else on the television). And "Prelude", from "Islands", of course. I was drawn to Elgar via the 'cello concerto when I was a teen, because it reminded me of Fripp (Evening Star solo, for example). I wonder if Fripp shares Eno's affection for cheese (in Eno's case, Doo Wop and Ray Connif, I think). If I can tie something as innoffensive as Eric Coates to something as terrifying as Crimson, I will. John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 17:44:05 -0500 (CDT) From: vince Subject: The Colour of Shite Sorry about the subject but it made me laugh. I enjoyed my first taste of TCOL. No earth-shattering point here other than ET seems to be turning into Tiger Beat or some such teeny-bopper magazine. My stomach turns at every post whining about so-and-so is in/out of the current KC incarnation. This type of post is better suited for the Backstreet Boys list. Perhaps KC could take a lesson from the Residents and tour with giant eyeball heads to divorce themselves from this cult of personality. Then they could swap instruments and improv just to confuse the fanboys. vince /* Visit the home of the Rancid Tofu Experience */ /* http://www.mp3.com/rancidtofuexperience */ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:44:18 EDT From: "MALCOLM XERXES" Subject: THE YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE TO KING CRIMSON C.D. MONMAY1/2000/21:15 ELEPHANT TALKERS: I am seeking to purchase or trade for a copy of "THE YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE TO KING CRIMSON" in compact disc format. The material I have for trade is the following: VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR: "I PROPHESY DISASTER" "PAWN HEARTS" (Featuring "THIS FRIPP") PETER HAMMILL: "FOOLS MATE" (Featuring "THIS FRIPP" again!) PETER HAMMILL/GUY EVANS: "SPUR OF THE MOMENT" WAKEMAN WITH WAKEMAN: "NO EXPENSE SPARED" JOHN WETTON: "AKUSTIKA - LIVE IN AMERIKA" "CHASING THE DEER" "BATTLE LINES" I invite any and all interested parties to respond at the following address: malcolmxerxes at hotmail dot com This is a "first dibs" situation before I post these items on ebay. I should also like to thank those ELEPHANT TALKERS with whom I have entered into regular correspondence since coming online in JANUARY: YOU LOT ARE PRETTY SPECIAL PEOPLE. I should also like to thank MISTER ROBERT FRIPP and all the KRIMSONITES from 1969 to the present for their collective and individual efforts, particularly for causing us all to "Come Together" in the many special ways that we do. "There's Nothing You Can Do That Can't Be Done" -MALCOLM XERXES (BATTERIE/PERCUSSIVES) 21:44 "What CAN I say? I mean, how can I encapsulate in mere words my scorn for any military solution, the futility of modern warfare? And the hypocrisy by which contemporary government applies one standard to violence within the community and another to violence perpetrated by one community upon another?" -MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS -MX ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:16:07 -0400 From: "Joseph A. Popp" Subject: belew records... are my belew records valuable (other than for the fantastic music). I have a 10" 33rpm of big electric cat and several other noteworthy items...any idea of values? thanks for any info... poppdodson at compuserve dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 23:24:53 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: Lost Fripp release At 09:37 PM 5/1/00 GMT, Mark wrote: > >Can anyone tell me what happened to the Fripp release "Sunday all over the >world"? I can't seem to find any evidence of it's existence!! Any info would >be much appreciated! If you're looking for it as a Fripp release, that might be your problem. In this case, Sunday All Over the World is actually the name of the band. The album title is Kneeling at the Shrine. It's on the EG label and is distributed by Caroline in the US. I just ordered this for one of my customers, so I know it's still available. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:35:39 -0500 From: "Jeff King" Subject: Give me a break, quit yer bitchin' I've been a Crimson fan since day one, have always considered Fripp as my favorite guitarist, and regularly read the postings on this site. What angers me is that every week as I read the postings there seems to be alot of anal retentive folk out there who constantly write and complain about the most trivial subjects. For instance: If Fripp uses a parable to detail his feelings about bootleggers and compares it to rape, it's taken so literally, there's a flood of posts about it, it's beating a dead horse. If any past member makes a mistake in a recollection he may have about his experiance with the band, it's dissected and he's criticized for his misgiving, sorry, but usually over the course of time we tend to forget absolute details or maybe not remember them accurately about events in our lives in and the band members are only human. Then we have this crap of comparing one band member with another, argueing over who's the best drummer, bassest, ect., whoever played on whatever album is what made that particular LP unique, if they were'nt up to snuff, Fripp would'nt have employed them. Probably one of the most entertaining post I've read was by a gal who gave us an anecdote concerning her evening taking Ian Wallace home with her for the night.There was only one comment made in a later post about it, and that one was doubting the credibility of her story. Recently there's alot of crap concerning the prices of collector's club releases. Don't you people realize the average price of bootlegs run between $30 - $50 bucks apiece and are most times difficult to find and the sound quality most of the time is terrible! Fripp has made some wonderful recordings advailable and he takes the time to try and clean them up and present them to us. If you can't appreciate that shut-up and don't buy them. Now I'm reading negative critiques made on the new Crim CD. Personally, I find it wonderful to see that they honed the Projekct material into something palatable and more Crimson-like, and at least Fripp gives us a chance to preview it to decide whether or not we want to buy it! I would like to see posts made in a more positive vein, there is so much wonderful music this band is responsible for. If King Crimson and Co. displeases the bulk of you out there so much, then find another group to collect and annoy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:35:42 -0400 (EDT) From: DANNYSTAMPER at webtv dot net (DANNY STAMPER) Subject: Bootlegs What's wrong with a bootleg if the artist refuses to release that title on cd? For example, I would LOVE to own a copy of the Toyah/Fripp album "The Lady or The Tiger" on cd. Can't get it. I was lucky enough to find a copy on a cassette tape at a goodwill store for a grand total of $.50, but those cheesy cassettes that JEM produced back in the 80's were of such inferior quality, the tape got ate by my car cassette player. It was some of the most beautiful, haunting music I had ever heard. Not to mention Toyah's sultry voice narrating this great short story. I want this album on cd so bad I can taste it, But the powers that be refuse to meet my request. So, anybody out there, if you can burn this on cd, you can reach me at this email address: dannystamper at webtv dot net, also if you can run me off a cd size copy of the album artwork, please name your price. I would gladly purchase this title on a legitimate release be it on EG, Virgin, or DGM if I only could. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:13:45 -0700 From: Raul Reyes Subject: sunday all over the world Hello crimson pals!Someone asked about this cool recording by fripp,its too easy....Mark you can find it a DGM online.Thats were i bought my copy.....later Raul Reyes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:22:05 -0500 (CDT) From: david craig Subject: "Turkish Tea"; Berkeley > there's at least one track on the '80s boot 'Indisciple Mining > Rocks' that could have gone either way to these ears... was it a > rare improv from the '80s band, or was it a composition that never > found its way to disc? Think the "title" (according to the > bootleggers) was "Turkish Tea"... I think the common wisdom is that this is a proto-neurotica, but I think that's open to some debate. In any event, that band in 1981 was more willing to go out on a limb than the 1982 and 1984 tours, sometimes with extraordinary results. (Not to say that 1982, in particular, didn't produce some exceptional performances. But they didn't dangle themselves over the lip in quite the same way.) What *I'D* like to know is, when are we going to get more CC releases from the 1980's? When that band was on, the results were simply sublime in a way that no crimson before or since has achieved. (Not necessarily better or worse. Just different. And beautiful.) I sense that something from the run at the Savoy in 1981 would go over rather well with those of us who adore the King Crimson of the 1980's. My personal vote would go to the 1982 show at the Greek Theater in Berkeley. (Or so the tape is labeled; I know they played the Greek in LA a few days before, so confusion would be easy. But the VIBE is Berkeley.) This show, on tape, quite literally changed my life. My soul would be much poorer without the experience of it, and I am grateful. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:46:17 +0200 From: John Sowerby Subject: David Cross >2) the general consensus about the great deceiver period is that satans >violin was too weak to match up with rhythm and guitar. therefore (and >because of other reasons) he had to go. well, isn't that sort of >"weakness" presented by the group itself? first, inviting a violinist to >add to the music's style, and then coming to the point of saying "he >doesn't fit"? doesn't that mean "we, as a group, were not able to >integrate him in the best possible way"? i remember the discussions about >bruford not leaving the others enough space in the 80's. so, how was >that in 1974? didn't the others leave david cross enough space? but >it's long ago... Well, my reading of the liner notes for 'The Night Watch' suggests that when it started, David Cross fitted in quite well, but as the group dwindled in numbers, Bill and John pulled the band off balance, until only the guitar could keep up with them properly, and Cross was squeezed out. John. Dr John Sowerby, (home) Bayerisches Geoinstitut, Parkstrasse 3, Universitaet Bayreuth, D - 95444 BAYREUTH, D - 95440 BAYREUTH, Germany. Germany. phone: (0)921 553717 phone: (0)921 5160437 e - mail: John dot Sowerby at uni-bayreuth dot de or: jrs at stones dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:35:30 +0100 From: Matthew Nolan Subject: Re: "Belew's" voice in ProzaKc Blues - KC appearance > Hi, ETers ! > In Et #662, Louis Sormany writes : > > - "ProzaKc Blues" is very strange: never before, KC had > played blues. > > Belew's voice is very special! > > Indeed, and it couldn't be stranger, since it's not him who sings on > this song ! It seems like you've missed this information, Louis, but > during the recording of TCoL, Mr Fripp reported in his (always > informative and often entertaining) diary that a guest (I cannot > remember his name) was recording vocals for thissong. I remember reading this too, but I now suspect that may have been a little bit of humour shining through. I don't see a credit for anyone else on vocals and the RealAudio sounds to me very much like AB and a highly sophisticated pitch / formant shifting Pro-tools plug in... Regards, Matt Nolan. =================================================== The bizarre but boogieable Rob Beadle Triangle Band http://www.rbtb.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:12:13 +0200 From: John Sowerby Subject: E - bows and RF's set up >I've always wondered how some of the tones on "Damage" were produced live, >and even if he didn't use the EBow, some of those tricky effects can >definately be created with it. One that has always eluded me for years is >the way he could land on a note and then the note would smoothly morph >into a feedback/harmonic sound. It sounded so perfect, and I was never >able to accomplish it with feedback. I thought maybe he was using some >kind of octave/volume combo pedal. But it's effortless with the Ebow. I would guess this is the guitar, and the set up of pedals / effects he uses. Both RF and Steve Hackett use Fernandez 'Sustainer' guitars these days, which seem designed to give these kinds of results. Check out what Steve Hackett calls 'the longest sustained note ever recorded' on his 'Darktown' album. John. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:15:47 +0200 From: Haible Juergen Subject: Great Deceiver This is my first mail to the list. I got my Great Deceiver package on Friday - ready for a long weekend. The music is awesome. I was prepared for something good from various collector's club releases (and I almost feared a sort of redundant buy after the CC #10), but little did I know. These live recordings are better than any other KC I've heard before, excellent playing and good recording quality as well. Reading about the circumstances of David Cross' leaving (they *made* him go ?!! - you see I'm rather new to that ...) was the only sad thing. His violin playing is one of the very highlights for me, and something that makes this period of Crimsom so much "warmer" and "more organic" than later incarnations. In my opinion at least. JH. (can't get that violin theme from Starless out of my head) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:53:43 +0200 From: masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr (Laurent MASSE) Subject: Mute in the studio / on stage Although it probably becomes exhausting reading by now, "Conundrum" and "Prism" for the 90's crimson as well as most of the Projekcts material were never performed in the studio. On the other side, I don't think the Inner Gardens and "VROOOM VROOOM Coda" were played on stage. The same for "No Warning" which was a studio improv anyway. The "No Warning" mentioned on TOAPP video is in fact "Entry Of The Crims". Laurent Masse masse at geocean dot u-bordeaux dot fr ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:00:18 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Recent Crimson Releases I have to de-lurk for a moment to say that the Central Park Concert is the collector's club release that I will end up playing the most of the first ten releases. Is it the most interesting? Probably not, simply because yes, it is similar to parts of The Great Deceiver. But imagine opening that box one day and finding a fifth cd. Not as novel as seeing a new side to a group, which CC #9 did, thereby causing an great deal more chat here, but in long the run, I'll still go w/ this line-up. Like Mr. Snow, I found KC during the Discipline era (I found Fripp, w/ Eno and solo, before that), but where he (if I remember correctly) found the the early KC w/ The G. D. box, I went to their studio albums straight away, and they immediately became my favorites. I also bought the 5 pre-Larks albums soon afterwards--and didn't care for them. (One problem is Sinfield's lyrics--I hate most of them. If you love them, great, I don't want to argue, but I'm w/ Boz on that airy-fairy stuff.) But the recent releases from this era: the live material, and particularly the digital remasters, have been a real awakening to me. Perhaps I'm better able to concentrate on the individual parts rather than on the overall sound now: for example, Keith's piano is, for me, a real highlight to the post-Court era now, and it's something I never really paid much attention to before. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:29:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: ET and the DGM Guestbook As some of you may have noticed, ET has been the subject of insults and condescension by some contributors to the DGM Guestbook. Granted, the discussion here in ET, as in most public forums, has its highs and lows. But in my view, there is something about the Guestbook that renders its negative commentaries about ET laughable (aside from the Guestbook's own low points). That something is the oblivious narcissism apparent in most of its messages. The Guestbook is a means for the audience to communicate with Fripp. But as Fripp himself has conveyed to us in his writings and actions, most of this communication is worthless. He has told us that he does not need to be thanked for the millionth time; he does not need to receive amateur psychotherapy from his fans; he does not need armchair criticism (or praise); he does not need suggestions on what to play or who to play with; he doesn't need to be asked his favorite color or his favorite books, or to listen to your favorite CD. Yet so many of the Guestbook messages consist of variations on these themes. What thought process precedes their authorship? Is it something along the lines of, "Here's something Fripp needs to hear from me"? Insofar as I understand the aims of the Guestbook, that _should_ be the question guests ask themselves. If they don't ask themselves this question, then their posts are in that way thoughtless. If they do ask themselves that question, and then still post their messages, then there are good odds that they answered it incorrectly, since so much of the Guestbook is worthless (in the way described above). I know, I know, _your_ post to the Guestbook was different. That's the oblivious narcissism I was talking about. Now you might say that since Fripp reads the messages sent to the Guestbook, he must think them worthwhile, and thus I've gotten it all wrong. But of course that is a bad inference, especially since Fripp has stated that he reads the Guestbook as part of a disciplining practice. He hasn't said anything about finding the content of the messages valuable. Given the way he talks about them, it sounds like reading the Guestbook is sort of like going to the dentist: it's unpleasant, but given one's aims, it's necessary. "What about ET?" you might ask. "Doesn't it contain much of the same kind of posts?" Yes it does, but there's a difference. ET isn't for communication with the artists (both audience members and our favorite artists have been mistaken about this). ET is for us--the listeners, inquirers, enthusiasts, to communicate with each other about whatever Fripp- and KC-related issues we care to discuss. What may be worthless to Fripp may be just the thing you or I are interested in hearing about: our opinions and reviews, questions and answers, news and stories, jokes and hopes. I'm glad it's around. "Talk about narcissism! You just lectured thousands of people on the worthlessness of the Guestbook and the virtues of Elephant Talk. You think you're so special?" Maybe I do, but no more special than most. And in any event, that's not a sin around here. I wanted to emphasize the value of Elephant Talk. And I wanted to get Guestbook posters (if any are reading) to think about their place in the lofty perch from which they drop their snotty, anti-ET turds. Neither these Guestbook posters nor us Elephant Talkers are in bed with Fripp; the difference is that we're aware of this. Thanks for reading. And thanks to Toby, Mike, and Dan for keeping ET alive. Justin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 16:37:11 -0500 From: wakacreative at mindspring dot com Subject: ConstruKction Thoughts I've just finished listening to The ConstruKction Of Light twice, and I have to say that I think it's just amazing. Much, much better than I could've even hoped for. To me, it's the perfect combination of Red-era, 80s-era and post-ProjeKct-er King Crimson. I can't wait to get the CD and hear it in its true glory. I've read so much bad stuff on here about it that I am completely amazed. What do you folks want? Christ, this recording is IT!!! What more could KC have done? Are your ears stuffed with Elephant Turds??? Sincerely, J. McLeod ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #664 ********************************