Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #663 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 663 Monday, 1 May 2000 Today's Topics: KC Songs not played live contraversy Re: Mexico City and the Macintosh -- Finally! I'm out. re: onstage/offstage Lost Fripp release Seeking Adrian KC in NZ TCoL KC article col reviews / tamms book / pre-orders "Turd Award 2000" "Belew's" voice in ProzaKc Blues - KC appearance Tricky Bits Centipede Re: Mute on stage band leader discussion / david cross ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:05:52 EDT From: "John Spokus" Subject: KC Songs not played live contraversy I have to get my two cents in before this becomes a dead thread. I don't think what someone else considered a live performance of "Happy Family" on the Epitaph box set, really qualifies as a performance of the actual song. In the context of this improv we basically just hear one melodic idea, played on sax that constitutes only a very small portion of the verse melody. Sure, I think it's fascinating to hear how this song developed from this section of the improv, but they didn't actually play "Happy Family"(proper) in a '69 set. I have heard live performances of "Lady Of The Dancing Water", "Get Thy Bearings", and "ITCOTCK" from the '71 line-up from the Court Of The '71 bootleg (Plymouth Guild Hall), and a performance of "The Letters" is on a tape of The Weeley Festival, Clacton. I have never encountered a performance of "Islands", or "Indoor Games" from this era and if someone has them I'd love a copy. John Spokus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:43:35 +0100 From: Mark Rhodes Subject: Re: Mexico City and the Macintosh -- Finally! David Craig writes in ET660 > Good news! The latest beta of the incredibly annoying Windows Media > Player for Macintosh finally supports the even more incredibly > annoying online licensing procedure conjured up by DGM. Thus, if you > still have the downloadable Mexico City .wma file, or you can figure > out where to get it (...), you can now listen to it on your Mac! I have downloaded the new beta of the WMP and I still have a copy of the .wma file, but if I try to play the file I receive an error when the player tries to license the file. Is there a work around for this? Has the licensing site now closed? (The site mentioned in ET650 now gives a 404 error.) Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:31:17 EDT From: Bawookles2112 at cs dot com Subject: I'm out. Well, I suppose it had to happen. After so many years of quality control and continual experimentation it was just a matter of time before Crimson made a duff album. After listening to all the tunes on the web I have to say that there doesn't seem like there's much gas left in the tank. Maybe it's going to the well one time too many. Thrak was a good album but it was already painfully obvious that that album was merely a re-hash of 70's and 80's elements. TCOL is more of the same, except even more derivative. Fripp is playing all over the place but we've all heard it before, Pat's drumming makes one pine for Bruford (and the cheap drum-machine sound of those v-drums REALLY pulls the whole production down, that snare drum sound is awful), and why is it that everything out of Belew for the last ten years tries so desperately to evoke the Beatles? Ughhh! I'm out! -Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:19:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: re: onstage/offstage On last ET issue, the mythical (and hard to trade with) Rob Cervero proposed: "Now to further stir things up, what about the opposite direction -- what songs (besides improvs/ jams/other instrumentals) have been played on stage but never made it to studio-released vinyl/CD (of course, many latter got released on boots and through the collector's club)?" In the October 13, 1972 Frankfurt show (the debut of the "Larks' Quintet"), after "Book of Saturday" (or "Daily Games" at that period), there's an impressive song which begins with some powerful guitar and some very evil violin, following an excelent rythm created by the Wetton-Bruford-Muir trio. It has some chord breaks used after in "Lament". In the second "movement" of the song (a straight ahead 4/4), John Wetton sings some words which i can't understand. In this movement, there's also some bits from "Dr. Diamond". After that, the song evolves into an improv with an impressive bass solo by Mr. Wetton, doubling it with his voice. The improv continues with one of the most outstanding and longest solos by Fripp, very furious at the beginning, then calming down and ending it with his trademark sustain-wahwah notes (just like the Coda from Earthbound's "Groon"). The end is a return to the "Dr. Diamond" bit, a very abrupt finish. Too bad it didn't make it to "Larks". Oh gee, what a band. And BTW, Mr. Cervero, I have a question. In which exact gig the Islands band plays "Indoor Games"? Thanks, Edgar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:40:01 -0400 From: "Mark Setevdemio" Subject: Lost Fripp release Can anyone tell me what happened to the Fripp release "Sunday all over the world"? I can't seem to find any evidence of it's existence!! Any info would be much appreciated! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:36:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael J. Bennett" Subject: Seeking Adrian ...or rather two of his works. i am looking for Belewprints and The Acoustic Adrian Belew. If anyone has copies of these for sale, please email me asap. These are the only two I need to complete my Adrian collection. Thanks. illoman at att dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:56:54 +1200 From: "Paul Brobbel" Subject: KC in NZ >FYI, Here in New Zealand the Collector's Club releases work out at a >whopping NZ$49 per disc! This in a country where the average disc retails >for NZ$34 or thereabouts ("imports" around $39, sometimes more). So they >are very pricey. I noticed Real Groovy in Auckland is selling what seems to be selling a Projekcts box set at some rediculous price. The best place for KC CD's is 'Borders' since they have the typical overblown American approach. There's a good supply of KC releases in their shelves. Some which I've never seen in even our most adventurous stores. I'm looking forward to finally getting ITWOP on CD for less than the mandatory $33. Paul B. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:17:17 -0500 From: "Loren W. Claypool" Subject: TCoL I read several posts to ET re: TCoL, most in the vein of disappointment. I take a different view. As background, I've been an ardent Bruf fan since the days of early Yes. I love Pat but must admit I was skeptical about a non-Bruf KC. Ditto Tony Levin - tons of respect for Trey (if you don't have Joy of Molybdenum, buy it now!), but KC without TL concerned me, as well. I played the Real Audio clips and captured them. I edited out the transmission pauses, burned them to CD, and have been listening to the tunes away from the computer for the last few days. (For those who may be wondering, I will pick up the official CD the day of its release, break my temp copy in half, and throw it away.) IMHO, TCoL is the best KC effort since Discipline. The music is tight, is respectful of 30 years of KC history, yet moves ahead in a unique and powerful way. Both Pat and Trey are magnificent and hold up their respective posts quite well. Ade and RF are at the top of their game. The songs are lyrically incredible - hats off to Mr. Belew. The CD has a wonderful mix of instrumental and vocal music, rhythmically complex and vibrant. The very best of the ProjeKcts is present, yet the wonderful interlocking guitars of the 80s Crim is sprinkled throughout the music, as well. FraKctured and Larks IV are the brilliant, logical progressions of their predecessors, not "revamps" as previously described. This is music that requires attention, it is not background music and, as such, is best not listened to in front of the PC. Give it a good two or three listens before the opinion sets in. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:14:26 PDT From: "alexis rondeau" Subject: KC article There was a KC article in this morning's news paper to anounce the release of the ConstruKCtion Of Light on May 9th (Canada). It featured some bits of an interview with Adrian. The information war pretty redundant to anyone readind ET but it DID mention that the band would tour in north america around october or november. Good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 10:19:44 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: col reviews / tamms book / pre-orders Hi there! I) I'm reading ET 662 early in the morning, CET. What comes to my mind (and what came to my mind this night, "i had a dream") is only one thing: On May 8th (plus/minus a few days) the new Krim will be released. Please - and this goes out to the ET masters - avoid filling the next thirty ET numbers with reviews and discussions about the new album. Please, please, please, make ET posters add their opinions on the release pages and not on the newspaper. I don't mind getting ET every day, but ET every day filled with the same crap about the new album... how it is and what it is and what one thinks about it... no, please not. II) From a recent discussion with Joseph Shelby (he didn't reply yesterday so I put it down here - hope you don't mind Joe) He said: "As for Tamm's book. The general concensus among Crim members (including Fripp) is that it overplays Fripp's involvment and control and doesn't give the other members (or the "group dynamic" concept) enough credit for what really took place in writing the Crim tracks. There's some truth in the book, but don't take it all as absolute. This is especially true for the 73 band, where improvisation played a major role in the music that came out, especially for the Starless and Bible Black album." I replied (in that way or another): "Maybe. But let's not forget that this is a book on Robert Fripp. It only points out Fripps efforts and creation because it IS definitely a book about Fripps efforts and creation. Not one about Wetton, Bruford, Lake or Belew." Anybody out there sharing this or that opinion about Tamm's book? III) to James Dusewicz: The Construkction of Light can be pre-ordered on www.lion.cc looking forward to the unexpected - europe 2000-. markus alexander gnad ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:32:36 -0700 From: "Ehrcraft" Subject: "Turd Award 2000" This post deserves the "Turd" award of the year. ........ > From: Scour12345 > Subject: Collector's Club crybabies "To anyone out there who continues to whine about the Collector's Club and its so-called "high prices": Get over it, damn it! The Collector's Club is for serious KC fans. don't join and shut the hell up! I for one am very pleased with the club so far. So stop wasting space on the Elephant Talk newsletters and either join the club or don't!" Thank you for such eye-opening insight. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:24:55 +0200 From: Valerie Le Goff et Mickael Vedrine Subject: "Belew's" voice in ProzaKc Blues - KC appearance Hi, ETers ! In Et #662, Louis Sormany writes : > - "ProzaKc Blues" is very strange: never before, KC had played blues. > Belew's voice is very special! Indeed, and it couldn't be stranger, since it's not him who sings on this song ! It seems like you've missed this information, Louis, but during the recording of TCoL, Mr Fripp reported in his (always informative and often entertaining) diary that a guest (I cannot remember his name) was recording vocals for this song. I was a little surprised to hear that it's in fact the vocals for the first song of the album, but I feel this particular singer adds to the roughness of the song. And while KC steps in on the front line with the release of this new album, it seems there's a new interest for older songs in movies. After the excellent "Buffalo '66", where Christina Ricci excuted a magical tap-dancing number on "Moonchild", a friend of mine (that I'm currently trying to "crimsonize") reported to me that "Cadence And Cascade " appears on the french movie "La Parenthese Enchantee". As a matter of fact, he told me the whole score may have been what he like best in the film. Good day to all ! Mickael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:28:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Terry Kroetsch Subject: Tricky Bits Can anyone point me towards a source where I can get the pitches (not worried about rhythm) for 21st Century S.M. - for keyboard, not Guitar tab. The main riff is easy but what about those tricky unison passages - dying to play along with the recording. If there is a guitar tab that could be easily translated to pitch names, that would be great, too. Reply: pianogod at nonline dot net Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:46:36 -0400 From: "Bill N" Subject: Centipede Just thought everyone might like to know--if you don't already--that the Centipede "Septober Energy" has been re-released. I got it through amazon. Talk about 1971 Art-rock. Four tracks cover 2 CDs. Keith tippet is there, ian mcdonald, the whole horn section from lizzard and islands, a bunch of guys from Soft Machine--about thirty english progressive muscians in all. The music? Well, picture the 2nd side of lizzard but with a lot more musicians and Cecil Taylor sitting in (he doesn't, but that's what it sounds like) Some of the most out-there stuff fripp has ever laid his hands on. Not great, but interesting bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 02:04:38 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Mute on stage > From: "Dave Lane" > > You can part with real money and pick up the Epitaph box, which > has two improvs containing brief embryonic versions of "Happy Family". Dave, thanks... I do have the 'Epitaph' box... what I really wondered was if a full-fledged "Happy Family" had ever surfaced onstage, but I'll admit that I didn't remember the embryonic versions on 'Epitaph.' Are these, perhaps, the "covers" of the British "light classical" standard 'The Happy Lagoon' by Arthur Coates? I hadn't thought of that... > From: Robert Cervero > > At the risk of dragging this matter on, a number of folks have asked about > my list of Crimson tunes that were never played on stage. There happens to > be a number of tunes performed live that have never made it to bootlegs but > have circulated among tape traders over the years. In response to M. > Dickson's query as to whether these were ever played live: > > "What about the songs on side one [of 'Lizard' - SS]? I don't hear any versions > of 'Prelude' > (!), 'The Letters' or 'Islands', although I confess that I haven't hard > many bootlegs from that particular era." S. Smith similarly asked about > parts of Islands. > > All these were played by the Boz/Collins-era band, during the > September-October 1971 tour. Islands, for example, was played at > Bournemouth Winter Gardens on October 15, 1971. And Brighton Dome the next night, as well. Got both, as "Islands" is a favorite, so I doggedly sought out a live version. > There's at least one abbreviated performance of Bolero. Where?!? > There are several taped shows with Indoor Games & Lady of the Dancing Water > were covered "Lady of the Dancing Water" I've got on one or two CDs - it was often segued with "Cadence and Cascade," in fact... But "Indoor Games" is one more I'd really like to hear. Could you point the way towards a source for hearing this? (Private e-mail would be fine...) > (I'm less certain about Happy Family -- this I'd need to check out). > Obviously, this period > would be a good candidate for a Collector's Club release. Particularly > noteworthy from the 1971 period is the performance of ITCOTCK at the May > 29, 1971 Sheffield City Hall show and the 12-bar blues rendition of ITCOTCK > at the November 12, 1971 Detroit East Town Theater. Got the Sheffield, but haven't heard the Detroit performance of which you speak. But I'll echo the need for a KCCC release from this period (see my recent post regarding the 11/71 Academy of Music show... And by the way, since I've mentioned it - I recently agreed to tape this show for someone who was there, and then I had a catastrophic computer crash and lost lots of data, including the name and address of the person for whom I was to copy this show. So, if you're still reading, would you drop me a line?). Rob, I think you pretty much nailed it regarding things played live that never made it to CD, although there's at least one track on the '80s boot 'Indisciple Mining Rocks' that could have gone either way to these ears... was it a rare improv from the '80s band, or was it a composition that never found its way to disc? Think the "title" (according to the bootleggers) was "Turkish Tea"... Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - ProjeKct X, "Heaven and Earth" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:00:17 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: band leader discussion / david cross hi there! first, thanks alot for help on the "mysterious" fripp disc (this goes out to Chris & Randall!). some new topics: 1) no doubt - fripp doesn't want to be called a band leader. and maybe isn't - for it's dozens of bands called king crimson. but who INDEED generated the four projeKcts, set them up, planned the constellations etc. etc.? 2) the general consensus about the great deceiver period is that satans violin was too weak to match up with rhythm and guitar. therefore (and because of other reasons) he had to go. well, isn't that sort of "weakness" presented by the group itself? first, inviting a violinist to add to the music's style, and then coming to the point of saying "he doesn't fit"? doesn't that mean "we, as a group, were not able to integrate him in the best possible way"? i remember the discussions about bruford not leaving the others enough space in the 80's. so, how was that in 1974? didn't the others leave david cross enough space? but it's long ago... qwith best regards & hopefully some thought-provoking markus alexander gnad "the first touch with your guitar is like your first kiss - as i experienced" ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #663 ********************************