Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #661 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 661 Wednesday, 26 April 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: ET Admin hassle NEWS: TCOL Webring!!! More on G3 TONY LEVINS-WATERS OF EDEN CD Cannot access "Deja Vrooom" menus Mute on stage KC Album, cassette, CD copies sold Rhapsodizing Bohemian Waiting Man re: Fripps' Tuning Re: Elephant Talk #660 CD Prices Re: CD Prices Phoenix Area ET'ers CD Prices/Collectors Club BITCH BITCH BITCH BITCH....... Re: KCCC Pricing Re: Mute on Stage Mike Keneally family tree / col / guitar craft / book on fripp Live in Japan KCCC CD price ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:23:58 EDT From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: NEWS: ET Admin hassle Due to a problem regarding e-mail transportation, there was a bottleneck in processing requests sent to the Elephant Talk administration server. Hopefully all the 'jammed' messages have now been dealt with, but if you have submitted a message to ET admin (admin at elephant-talk dot com) within the last month and have *not* yet received a reply then you may have to resubmit your request. ET Admin apologies for any inconvenience caused by this problem. Mike Dickson ET Administration ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:23:58 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: TCOL Webring!!! Wondering what the new King Crimson album sounds like? For a limited time (perhaps only 1 week until May 2nd) you can listen to full length Real Audio clips of the entire album online through the TCOL Webring. So get to it! Your starting point is http://www.disciplineglobalmobile.com/news/tcol.html at DGM Web. Cheers! Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:22:23 -0500 From: "Buzz Fenner" Subject: More on G3 I saw RF on tour with G3 at the Mud Island Amphitheater in Memphis, Tennessee; summer of 1998. Mike Keneally stepped up and soloed with RF at this show, too. One thing that struck me was how closely Mike was able to approximate Fripp's guitar sound using a Stratocaster. Up to that point, I had always pooh-poohed Strats because they did not sound like a "Man's guitar." I shut up after witnessing that. And, at one point Fearless Leader did set the Soundscapes in motion, walked over to stage left, turned around, gazed out across the stage, looking over the Mississippi River. He had the look of a man who was pleasantly pleased with his creation. It was a very surreal setting; waiting 28 years to see Fripp, its daylight, he's playing while concertgoers are arriving, getting drinks, finding their seats, and talking. There are roughly six or seven people I've never seen before, with me, standing at the front of the stage, with our jaws on the ground. Meanwhile, the master weaved his quilt of sounds, oblivious to the meandering crowd and us. RF did jam with the others on Frank Zappa's "My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama." It was very cool to hear him (and I do mean hear) trade off guitar solos with young techno-rock-gods. He burned them. Buzz Fenner bfenner at bscn dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:35:28 -0700 (PDT) From: r r Subject: TONY LEVINS-WATERS OF EDEN CD Hello crimson-pals!for those of you who havent ordered his new cd,i found it on tower records online!they are stating they have tonys new one in stock.....$13.99 us dollars.I also saw it in cd now for $11.88 us dollars but its in back order:(I suppose you can find it anywhere online now!Theres also an ad on the new issue of progression magazine!for tonys water of eden.Basically he said its Peter gabriels old band!Now its tonys:)Can hardly wait to get my hands on this one:) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 00:57:07 -0400 From: "Tom X. Chao" Subject: Cannot access "Deja Vrooom" menus I attempted to play the DVD on my PowerBook G3 400, system 9.0.4, Apple DVD Player 2.2. For some reason I could watch the video fine, but I could not access the menus, and therefore the special features are inaccessible. I could switch angles and turn on subtitles. When I tried scanning forward at 2x speed, the disc would show me the menus very rapidly but I could not click on any of the options. I don't know if the problem lies in the hardware, software, disc, or my inexperience with DVD's. I have been able to play other DVD's on this system (The Wall, Yellow Submarine, Lou Reed: Rock and Roll Heart, Sid & Nancy), and access all of the special features. Yes, I consulted the FAQ but it is inconclusive on this issue. Thanks, TXC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:06:12 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Mute on stage Robert Cervero wrote... > Based on what's out there on bootleg and circulating among tape traders, > these tunes have never been performed live: > > In the Wake of Poseidon (from "Poseidon") ...or 'Peace'. > Prince Rupert Awakes, The Battle of Glass Tears, Big Top (from "Lizard") What about the songs on side one (aside from 'Cirkus', of course)? And I don't hear any versions of 'Prelude' (!), 'The Letters' or 'Islands', although I confess that I haven't hard many bootlegs from that particular era. Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Mellotron M400 #996 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Hammond T500 #252302 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:51:20 -0400 From: "GRAY ROBERT Y. (tel1byg)" Subject: KC Album, cassette, CD copies sold Does anyone know if there are any reliable, up-to-date sources (on the internet, in book form, trade magazines, etc.) where one can find an exhausive listing of total sales of individual albums/boxed sets/EPs/singles etc., by artist. I would prefer it if these sales numbers were broken down between format too. As you might guess, I am most interested in finding out just how many albums KC has sold over the past thirty years. This is mostly for curiosity-sake but it would also be interesting, considering how many differnt ways a single album (such as the ITCOTCK) has been available to the public (i.e. -- as vinyl (in it's many varieties), cassette, first run CD, 1989 difinitive issue CD, 24-bit remaster CD, etc, etc.). It would be even more interesting, although an impossible number to come up with, to find out how many of these are for repeat purchases (for instance, I have two vinyl and two CD copies of ITCOTKC). Please respond to this via Elephant-Talk only, no personal posts. Thanks. [ Er, no. Please reply direct to the poster, not to ET. Thanks. -- Toby ] B Gray ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:24:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Rhapsodizing Bohemian Waiting Man I came across a sound sample fellow ETers might be interested in. As has been mentioned in this forum, the band Amy X Neuberg & Men covered KC's "Waiting Man." I had never heard this band before, and their cover is so off the wall it defies easy description. So you may want to check it out yourself. The Real Audio link is on this page: http://www.racerrecords.com/AlbumDesc1019.html Enjoy (or try). Justin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 07:33:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Makowsky Subject: re: Fripps' Tuning Greetings - > > hi i just have one question > how does king crimson tuned his guitar and what do > you > mean whit standard???????????? > sorry for my ignorance and english ,but here in > chile > we tune our guitars in the classical way and we > speak > espanol > > THANKS AND ADIOS Per a Puitar Player article (don't remember the date) the tuning is, from lowest to highest string) C - G - D - A - E - G. Once you get used to it, and do a little work, it kinda works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:00:21 -0500 From: Craig Shropshire Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #660 RE: the club and Hyde Park >"The tron at its dark & menacing best -- I can only imagine how >pop tunes by the Stones must have gone over after this assault." >Well it's not like Marianne Faithfull was onstage. I have a boot of their >show - "Sympathy for the Devil" is about 15 minutes and very intense, and a >reminder that KC wasn't the first band to explore darker themes (also see >"Midnight Rambler") Yes, and don`t forget the STONES, too, were using a `tron on their superb, "HER SATANIC MAJESTY`S REQUEST in 1967!!! ~Craig Shropshire ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:42:45 -0500 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: CD Prices I was checking out this thread and felt it worth adding a bit more commentary. For a start it may in purely material/physical terms cost less than a dollar to print out a CD including the disk, sleeve/cover, and the jewel case. But what most seem to forget is the cost of actually recording and creating the MUSIC itself that will be printed on the disk. A LOW end figure would have studio costing at least $30.00 per hour. So even a Club release that had 40 hours work done on it would add $2800.00 to the bill. Then let's consider the possibility that the master tape needs to be paid for, either thru a private owner or E.G. Who knows the cost of that? Then when it comes to the artwork somebody had to CREATE the art that is printed, an artist for the cover and somebody to do the drudge work of all the typesetting and proofreading. I don't even know what that cost would be either. (I know with my band's own disk it cost $300.00 just to make the films needed to print a 4 fold sleeve 4 years ago). And then last but not least: Is no one willing to pay for the MUSIC itself? These people complaining about the cheap cost of the manufacture of the disk seem to not consider whether the actual MUSIC is worth anything! For example a band could print up 1000 disks for roughly $2000.00, including the sleeve printing. BUT! Its also cost would cost probably at least $7000.00 to RECORD the music (and at that cost using the figures above of $30.00 per hour studio time means finishing a complete album in slightly over 2 weeks. Both these amounts being extremely LOW estimates). Now again this still is in the realm of physical costs, time and material. Plus artist fees for the cover work etc. But what about the music? Somehow when people figure the cost of making a disk they seem to completely forget the music on the disk having any value. What is a live concert of KC from 1971 worth? Not the plastic, not the cardboard, but THE MUSIC! How do you put a value on it? In KC at least 4 people are attempting to make some type of living on their music, including recordings. What is a fair value? How long did it take the main guy to write the song? What is his time and ability worth? How long did it take him to teach the other members the music? What is that time for him and the other members worth? So anyway, hopefully my point has been made. When dealing with recorded music, what are we paying fo,r the few ounces of plastic and paper or the ACTUAL MUSIC??? ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 2000 13:30:45 EDT From: Joseph dot Nagraj dot 98 at Alum dot Dartmouth dot ORG (Joseph Nagraj 98) Subject: Re: CD Prices --- In ET #660, "Mike" wrote: Just by means of a public service announcement, the remasters can be found at: www.hmv.com and www.bn.com I can personally attest to this as I've bought copies from both sources. As for delivery times, hmv came through in less than a week. Barnes and Nobles took about two weeks. Since HMV is located in Canada, you actually get a great deal due to the exchange rate. I think I paid about $14.50 U.S. including S & H per disc. --- end of quote --- I'd like to second the notion of buying CDs online. I've been doing it exclusively for more than a year now, and I'm certain that every item I've purchased has cost me less that it would at a retail store. And if you sign up with ebates.com and then link through their site when you make purchases, you can save an additional 5% at Barnes&Noble or Borders online, 7% at CDnow, 3% at Buy.com, etc. They collect and save the rebate money for you, and then send out checks quarterly. There's over 100 online stores (including books, movies, clothes, electronics, etc) that they're affiliated with. If you buy stuff online (and not just CDs), I definitely think it's worth checking out. Here's the link: http://www.ebates.com/index.jhtml?referrer=jngr And while I'm talking about buying CDs (and forgive me if this is common knowledge already), is there any word out about when new KC album be released in the US? I thought I saw something about a Japanese date, but I can remember seeing anything for the US. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:01:15 -0700 From: "Rikala, Erik" Subject: Phoenix Area ET'ers Anyone in the Phoenix, AZ area interested in putting together a formal club let me know. Erik Rikala ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:49:49 +1000 From: Tony Iremonger Subject: CD Prices/Collectors Club Ted White Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:22:42 wrote: > A year's subscription costs $96 and nets > six CDs. Simple math assures me that works out to exactly > $16 a CD. Lets clear this one up. Those of us who live outside the United States in countries like Australia for example not only pay a $96 subscription fee but also pay an additional $24 for shipping and handling. Total cost $120. Try that simple math again and you'll get $20 per CD. At current exchange rates that works out to around AUD34.00 per disc. This is a little more expensive than what current release CDs retail at in Australia (around $30.00 full-price $27 to $28 discounted) but in line with prices for US imports (currently around $35). The last time I bought a single CD bootleg (hard to find here these days) I paid $35. The gatefold Poseidon, Lizard and Islands cost me $32, $30, and $30 respectively. While I would prefer cheaper prices all around - I have no real complaints about the collectors club's pricing relative to what I pay for other CD's. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:06:26 -0400 From: "Eric / Susan Young" Subject: BITCH BITCH BITCH BITCH....... It's just music, people! There are so many opinions in any open forum - refreshingly - like so many noisy voices at a loud, crowded party with booze - regrettably. (You know, those guys you complain about on the way home?...) Lighten up. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:03:43 PDT From: "Nomad Stem" Subject: Re: KCCC Pricing People, This debate about the price of KCCC releases as compared to whatever else is getting tiresome. $16 includes shipping and handling for US members. It accounts for the fact you can't get these anywhere else (unless you pay more for a Pony Canyon release). It accounts for the cleanup work mastering this music for our ears. It accounts for the effort put in for the artwork and notes. It accounts for the small amount of these produced. It accounts for the exclusivity of the recordings. It accounts for the audience it is targeting of enthusiasts who long for these recordings. It accounts for the fact that they could have charged more, but they didn't. And finally it accounts for the fact that DGM is not a charity, it is a business, and as a business they have the right to a fair profit. If you don't like the price stop bitching about it and move on. Obviously the laws of supply and demand are in effect and DGM has decided on a price they feel is right. If no-one joined then they may have had to lower the price. Fact is a lot of people would have paid more. Nomad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:51:21 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Mute on Stage > From: Robert Cervero > Subject: Mute on stage > > In response to the query: "Going over the entirety of KC's studio output, > are there any songs that have never been performed live?" > > Based on what's out there on bootleg and circulating among tape traders, > these tunes have never been performed live: [snip] > > Prince Rupert Awakes, The Battle of Glass Tears, Big Top (from "Lizard") Geez, does that mean that "Indoor Games," "Happy Family," and "Bolero - The Peacock's Tale" were performed live at some point? I'd part with real money to hear at least the first two of those, and I'd have to admit that it wouldn't entirely surprise me if they were included in one or another early show by the Boz band. Rob, I pray you let me know if there's more out there for which I should be searching. After all, the biggest jolt of my year to date has been the discovery that KC was "covering" a Pharoah Sanders tune back in '72. And at least I wasn't so impertinent as to include "Prelude: Song of the Gulls" on my list of things KC hasn't performed live... Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - KC, "Improv: Cerberus," 'Live in Central Park' (which is a much stronger and more involving show than I'd thought given my muffled cassette boot... a ringing endorsement of the Collectors Club if ever there was one...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 02:28:43 -0700 (PDT) From: mkkgokieli at excite dot com Subject: Mike Keneally Ken Makowsky wrote: <> Well, Mike Keneally was a guitarist in FRANK Zappa's '88 band - his best one, I suppose - and is featured on the live albums by the band ('make a jazz nosie here' - the best Zappa IMHO; 'best band you never heard n your life', 'broadway the hard way'; there's also some stuff on 'you cant do it on stage anymore' vols. 4&6. All these albums are great, but 'make a jazz noise' is abslolutely essential). He does not solo often, but his solo on THE version of 'purple haze' ('best band...') is really great. Be well, Marcin Gokieli marcing at mospan dot pl Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:45:50 +0200 From: Gnad Markus Subject: family tree / col / guitar craft / book on fripp hi there! I) a general comment on et: instead of the timeline (which is surely useful for kc "beginners") - wouldn't it be better to create a sort of "family tree" including all kc and kc-related musicians, their outputs, projects etc.? or is there any family tree of great 70's bands available on the net? II) concering the construKction of light: to those "privileged" who have already heard parts of the new release: wouldn't it be better not to critisize like "...it contains elements of projeKcts, blabla, and reflections on the discipline era, blabla, and elements of the 74 era...."? please note: like in every "good" band, the style changes with every day. king crimson is not king crimson. so please let it be with the new album. it is what it is. (for robert fripp: this is not against your opinion about the spirit of k that rules in every recording. this comment of mine only concerns the end output.) there is no "definite" king crimson sound. III) to robert fripp - or anyone who knows: how can i, in europe and not possible to get to the states, "learn" basics of guitar craft? is there a book or are certain strategies and principles for home-studying available on the net? IV) i'm currently reading tamm's book on fripp. it's great. this is the way a book about musicians has to be written. exactly. compare to book about david bowie (forgot the author) => too much stuff about tour dates, excesses in private, money etc.etc. uagh! hard to read & easy to forget. but every sentence of tamm's book stays in my mind and lasts and lasts and gives me the feeling that this is really something special, written by a person who really devotes his life to music. and - it creates a really familiar feeling because it's written in subjective form. thank you eric please excuse my broken english. and thanks to the et team for creating the thing! it's the best way to get to know listeners and musicians both. (concerning the post of ian wallace: past kc members are no fans. i think such posts should be marked on top of the newsletter.) have a nice day markus alexander gnad ps. how many austrian et readers are there? i'm going to be at both austrian kc concerts. for those who have not yet noticed: june 16 vienna (planet music) and june 17 linz (posthof) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:11:51 EDT From: Leedoug at aol dot com Subject: Live in Japan I have been a subscriber to the list for sometime, reading the posts, getting KC tidbits and news and sometimes wondering how some people have the time to speculate about how band would or wouldn't sound with or without a certain musician. My life is pretty boring and I don't have that kind of time! The reason for my post is that I have I have been listened to KC since I was grabbed by the shorts at the tender age of 16 by ITCOTCK when it was released on vinyl in 69. I have waxed and waned as a listener since that time but never as fan. I was reawakened as a listener by VROOM and then Thrak and decided eventually to purchase the Live in Japan video about a year ago. I have watched and listened several times and my reaction is always the same. Grateful! The musicianship is almost without peer. How anyone can ever say that the players in KC are technical without emotion is truly beyond me. The music that is reached by the group could not possible be touched without the discipline that only the highest form of love can create. The dedication to their craft by each and every player is unquestionable. The music comes out of their pores for God's sake. The time and effort are palpable in their playing and I never see the hint of an ego crying look at me play. Only the attempt to reach the divine with each other on stage through paying attention and interplay in a way that is truly unique and can only be King Crimson. Not Robert Fripp, nor Adrian, nor Mr. Bruford or any of the individuals alone, but through the interaction of each and the structure that is the song and the band that is King Crimson. Unique, yes, dark and foreboding and emotionless and mechanical? Are we listening to the same music? Well, I have never posted before and may not post again but I felt compelled to express in words to others that share KC music with each other in this forum to simply say- King Crimson really rocks me like no other and I am very much looking forward to the latest incarnation's take on The Construction of Light. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:48:55 +0100 From: "Ron Chrisley" Subject: KCCC CD price > > Mike wrote: > > "This is also why I have balked at purchacing the Collecters Club > releases. Sure, they are producing a far smaller production run of them, but I'm sure > that the end cost including artwork etc. is less than $2.00/CD. SInce there > are no promotional costs (no ads in Billboard etc) and is self distributed, > I have trouble accepting the +$20.00/disc cost asked. " > James replied: > It's actually $16. The marginal cost is practically 0; the real cost is in > pre-production, as you mention later. Anyway, the Grateful Dead charge > about $13 for similar archival discs, and considering they've got far me > resources, I think the CC is very fair. > Similarly Ted said: > But > where did you get the idea that KCCC releases cost > "+$20.00/disc"? A year's subscription costs $96 and nets > six CDs. Simple math assures me that works out to exactly > $16 a CD. > And Todd said: > > Me: Unless things have changed, the Collectors Club costs $16 per disc > including S & H expenses, not $20+ > What James, Ted and Todd say is only true is you have a US address. If you have a UK address, for instance, you have to pay #13 = $20.80 per CD. This is not because of higher postage, since (I assume) the CDs are posted in the UK. The reasons given for this rate are stated clearly in the CC statement on the DGM website: CDs "cost" #13 in the UK, so that's what they are going to charge. So the price is not determined by pre-production costs, or production costs of any kind. Rather, the price is determined by the "going rate" in a music industry which Fripp himself has argued is motivated by greed and is generally unethical. Todd was getting near the mark when he said: > > He [Mike] also wrote that he felt that the Collector's Club releases are > overpriced, and that the price of the Collector's Club CDs is not justified > by the quality of the production. > > I could not disagree more with this comment. The Collector's Club CDs are > priced quite fairly given the laws of supply and demand Yes, it is supply and demand which are determining the CC prices: I assume that DGM thinks that it is the highest price the (limited but fanatical) market will bear. That is, if they charged substantially more, subscriptions would notably drop off. They are assuming that the prices they charge are where the curves meet, because that is where they meet for the rest of the industry. Where Todd goes wrong is to say that the prices are "fair", given supply and demand. The point of supply and demand reasoning is to eliminate talk of fairness. If one can maximise profits by charging $100 for a CD, then by the economic thinking Todd is appealing to, one should do so. That doesn't mean one is therefore being "fair", or "unfair" if one charges more or less than $100 -- only "fiscally prudent" if you charge $100, or "fiscally stupid" if you charge more or less. Talk of supply and demand is precisely to remove talk of "fair" or "unfair" prices. The question then arises: is it a good idea to remove ethics from discussions of pricing in this manner? Ron Chrisley ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #661 ********************************