Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #660 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 660 Monday, 24 April 2000 Today's Topics: Mexico City and the Macintosh -- Finally! the club and Hyde Park ba soy sapo Earthbound Again-Can't We All Just Get Along Pickholding King Crimson at German "Roolling Stone" BootlegTV-help Box set sales figures Re: CD Prices Gatefold Sources and cd pricing RE: CD prices/Collector's Club One More Red Nightmare live Re: CD Prices ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:15:18 -0500 (CDT) From: david craig Subject: Mexico City and the Macintosh -- Finally! Folks- Good news! The latest beta of the incredibly annoying Windows Media Player for Macintosh finally supports the even more incredibly annoying online licensing procedure conjured up by DGM. Thus, if you still have the downloadable Mexico City .wma file, or you can figure out where to get it (...), you can now listen to it on your Mac! You can find the media player beta at . Next: figure out how to record it to disk so we can burn it to CD and listen on the STEREO (instead of sitting in front of the computer.) David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 21:21:57 -0400 From: James Hannigan Subject: the club and Hyde Park Mike wrote: "This is also why I have balked at purchacing the Collecters Club releases. Sure, they are producing a far smaller production run of them, but I'm sure that the end cost including artwork etc. is less than $2.00/CD. SInce there are no promotional costs (no ads in Billboard etc) and is self distributed, I have trouble accepting the +$20.00/disc cost asked. " It's actually $16. The marginal cost is practically 0; the real cost is in pre-production, as you mention later. Anyway, the Grateful Dead charge about $13 for similar archival discs, and considering they've got far more resources, I think the CC is very fair. Robert Cervero wrote: "The tron at its dark & menacing best -- I can only imagine how pop tunes by the Stones must have gone over after this assault." Well it's not like Marianne Faithfull was onstage. I have a boot of their show - "Sympathy for the Devil" is about 15 minutes and very intense, and a reminder that KC wasn't the first band to explore darker themes (also see "Midnight Rambler") It was their first show with Mick Taylor, a superb guitarist. Not to mention probably the only rock concert in history with a reading of Shelley! I'm not denying KC was unmatched for sheer ferocity for an entire show; there is no doubt about that. Anyway, thanks for the info Robert - I can't wait to hear it. I think the show date was actually July 5, not June 5 however. It's amazing that this show can be authenticated in such a way, that's pretty rare. - Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 23:21:59 -0500 (CDT) From: omar fortin Subject: ba soy sapo hi i just have one question how does king crimson tuned his guitar and what do you mean whit standard???????????? sorry for my ignorance and english ,but here in chile we tune our guitars in the classical way and we speak espanol THANKS AND ADIOS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 23:59:39 -0400 From: "taper88" Subject: Earthbound Again-Can't We All Just Get Along In reply to Mark Dickerson's reply of my comments on Eathbound- What! How can you disagree with me, don't you know i'm always right? :) :) But seriously, i still maintain that despite groovin' tunes contained within, the rough recording is & will be a major turn off to anyone checking it out who is not a HardCore Crimso Nut, like Mike and I. I'm the type who walks into the store for something else, notice Earthbound or the GrtDecv Box Set on the shelf, immediatily drop what i came in for and sink my entire weeks pay( or what's left of it ) into Crimso CD(s). So for the next week while i'm eating peanut butter sandwiches & dodging the landlord, I'm blissfully enjoying Royal Scarlet. So if you are not that far gone, i'm just saying you might be a bit disappointed if you pay top dollar for it and then discover what it sounds like. With the Schizoid CD & the Club releases from that era, the average Crimson fan will more than satisfied. So after saying all that i will agree with Mark about that particular 21CSM. It is arguably one of the best live versions of all the eras. BLISTERING describes it best. So if you don't own Earthbound and you see it in the store, buy it if you really feel you need it, not just want it. If you need it, you'll know, and you'll be happy when you get it. I know that's how i felt and still do. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:57:42 GMT From: "Uno K." Subject: Pickholding Read with interest in RF's diary the importance of how one holds a pick. I smiled when he wrote that it was his "darkest day" when he saw how beginners held their picks. Being a beginner myself I now wonder if there is anyone reading this, that in words can explain how one should hold a pick according to Fripp. Hoping it will change my life ;-) Uno K. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 19:45:09 +0200 From: klehr Subject: King Crimson at German "Roolling Stone" Hi, there is a 8-page King Crimson article in the German "Rolling Stone". Big! Some nice pictures of RF and KC (RF with Toyah in a bathtube). It's a history of KC from 1969 to 2000. I read, that they have only made 600 copies of Giles, Giles & Fripp! The autor have heared the new KC: "TCOL is 22nd century music". Is it? Waiting for TKOL........ Lothar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 20:08:53 +0200 From: klehr Subject: BootlegTV-help Hi bootlegtv-users. Have you some trouble with the macromedia-flash. Could'nt you see the BootlegTV-sides with your Netscape-browser? Could'nt you hear muisc from KC? I'm not, too. I've downloaded the newest stuff from the macromediaside, but I did'nt see and hear anything (only the first blue screen and a second smaller black screen, without menuebar). But if you use the Microsoft-Internet-Explorer, you will see the sides and hear the music. The music sould be from the Discipline area. Has anybody the same problems? Lothar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:14:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Arturs Kalnins Subject: Box set sales figures Greetings E-Ters, Can anyone help me with some approximate sales figures? I'm trying to find out approximately how many copies the Frame-By-Frame and Great Deceiver box sets have sold. I'm trying to get a sense of the size of the fan base today of various rock acts with a long history, including KC. Thanks in advance. Arturs Arturs Kalnins Assistant Professor Department of Management and Organization Marshall School of Business University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-1421 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:22:42 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Re: CD Prices "Mike" in ET 659 sez: > It costs less than $0.68 to make a CD, this includes the "jewel box" and > inserts. This price is based upon a limited run of 5000, it likely costs > MUCH less for major label runs of multi-million sellers like Santana, N Sync > etc. However, before you blame your "local CD rip off merchant", we (CD > retailers) usually PAY $11-$14 for CDs we sell for $14-$17. The LIST price > (manufacters suggested retail price) from the major labels has leapt > drastically in the past few months, CDs that listed for $11.98 last month > are now listing for as much as $17.98 and new "Hot" releases are listing for > as much as $19.98 for a single CD! Cassettes now list for as much as $12.98 > for a single tape! A $3.00 cost increase to the retailer (and > subsequently,the consumer) based on a $0.02 increase in the pertoleum cost > of a CD? You do the math. Corporate greed, (im)pure and simple. > > This is also why I have balked at purchacing the Collecters Club releases. > Sure, they are producing a far smaller production run of them, but I'm sure > that the end cost including artwork etc. is less than $2.00/CD. SInce there > are no promotional costs (no ads in Billboard etc) and is self distributed, > I have trouble accepting the +$20.00/disc cost asked. Now, to be fair, I DO > appreciate the fact that the artist (RF/KC) is getting the bulk of the > profit and that the cost is NOT going to the "middle-man", ownership stays > with the artist and NOT the "Corporation" and so on. I also understand that > bootlegs often run $20-$40/CD, making the KCCC releases competativly priced. > One could also argue that I am not taking into consideration > finding/purchacing (older) source tapes, remixing and editing time etc. but > re: recent live releases (both Discipline and KCCC) I have been unimpressed > with the mix and editing: cold endings at the end of discs instead of the > traditional (and IMHO less jarring) fade out, questionable sonics on > RECENT recording (in fact I have heard better sounding BOOTLEGS of the Thrak tour > than the legit Thrak Attack release) aand so on leads me to believe that > there is minimal attention paid to the mastering of these tapes, therefore > less need to pay for it. > > What's it all mean? > Fascinating stuff -- although I've heard different (higher) numbers for the cost of making CDs and I don't believe that less-than-a-dollar price includes four-color inserts. But where did you get the idea that KCCC releases cost "+$20.00/disc"? A year's subscription costs $96 and nets six CDs. Simple math assures me that works out to exactly $16 a CD. > Record labels WILL charge as much as the market will bear, that's basic > economics. As long as we, the buying public accept (and pay) $20 for a CD we > will be charged that much (and before long, more). I for one refuse to pay > full price for most CDs and usually wait for used copies to surface in local > stores (there are exceptions). I'm sure European readers will laugh at my > whining about the "high" US prices when you are paying almost double our > prices for music but the economics are tha same...GREED. > > Just my seventy-five cents...what do you think? > I think you can't remember when *all* CDs sold here (in the mid-'80s) were imported from Germany or Japan and cost around $25 each. I think you're unfamiliar with the present cost of imported CDs ($16 to $25, typically, but much more for some from Japan). But I agree with you that domestic labels are making a lot of money on each CD they sell. --TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:19:39 -0700 From: "Mike" Subject: Re: CD prices Hello, Just by means of a public service announcement, the remasters can be found at: www.hmv.com and www.bn.com I can personally attest to this as I've bought copies from both sources. As for delivery times, hmv came through in less than a week. Barnes and Nobles took about two weeks. Since HMV is located in Canada, you actually get a great deal due to the exchange rate. I think I paid about $14.50 U.S. including S & H per disc. On the topic of cd prices, "Mike" recently wrote: "It costs less than $0.68 to make a CD, this includes the "jewel box" and inserts. This price is based upon a limited run of 5000, it likely costs MUCH less for major label runs of multi-million sellers like Santana, N Sync etc. However, before you blame your "local CD rip off merchant", we (CD retailers) usually PAY $11-$14 for CDs we sell for $14-$17..." Me: I can't believe that it cost that little to produce a CD. That's amazing. I wonder, does that price include the initial investment a record company makes in the way of advances and promotional expenses paid to and on behave of an artist? Mike "...This is also why I have balked at purchacing the Collecters Club releases. Sure, they are producing a far smaller production run of them, but I'm sure that the end cost including artwork etc. is less than $2.00/CD. SInce there are no promotional costs (no ads in Billboard etc) and is self distributed, I have trouble accepting the +$20.00/disc cost asked..." Me: Unless things have changed, the Collectors Club costs $16 per disc including S & H expenses, not $20+ Mike "Record labels WILL charge as much as the market will bear, that's basic economics. As long as we, the buying public accept (and pay) $20 for a CD we will be charged that much (and before long, more). I for one refuse to pay full price for most CDs and usually wait for used copies to surface in local stores (there are exceptions)." Me: Unfortunately, waiting to buy a used cd is not likely to have any effect on cd pricing. Of course a cd is used only after someone buys it new. Secondly, fanatics aren't patient enough to wait for used materials to appear. I think it will take a much more concerted effort by consumers to see any price change to take place. Organizing protests in front of your local cd merchant wouldn't be going to far! Get a few tv cameras to show up and you just might have something. What we really need is a bit of government intervention. If the music industry is in cahoots with itself to keep cd prices high, that's the definition of a monopoly and it's a big no-no! Just ask Bill Gates. So, write your congress person. Take care, Todd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 16:56:17 -0600 From: Todd Crane Subject: Gatefold Sources and cd pricing Mike recently wrote to express his concern with the "profits" record companies and distributors make on CDs. Since he apparently owns a record shop I'm sure he's frustrated by control these entities have over his business. And to make matters worse, the "big boys" get better prices from the distributors, making it even harder for him to compete. I sympathize - I have similar challenges in my business. He also wrote that he felt that the Collector's Club releases are overpriced, and that the price of the Collector's Club CDs is not justified by the quality of the production. I could not disagree more with this comment. The Collector's Club CDs are priced quite fairly given the laws of supply and demand. In fact I hope that the profits from this venture are going directly to the craftsmen decorating the lounge of Mr. Fripp's new cottage in deepest Dorset, or to pay the tab at the good-food pub across the road. Believe me, he's earned it. Enjoy it, Bob. And after you deal with payroll, advertising bills, travel expense, production costs, website production costs, etc, I hope there's enough left for you to buy fifty acres of woodland behind the cottage, and a Maserati Bora. Personally, I'm tired with the common ET theme of "rip off merchants" selling music and software companies making ugly profits from partnerships with King Crimson and so on.....profit is not a dirty word and I encourage Robert Fripp to use King Crimson and his considerable intelligence freely to find ways to make more and more and more of it. Music-wise, the KC Collector's Club is one of the best things to happen as a result of the internet, and I would not mind it if DGM raised the price of each Collector's Club CD by 50% if it meant that we could have these releases more frequently. John Smallwood ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 20:12:41 EDT From: John Smallwood Subject: RE: CD prices/Collector's Club In ET Digest 659, Robert Cervero spaketh thus: > Based on what's out there on bootleg and circulating among tape traders, > these tunes have never been performed live: >snip< > Fallen Angel (from "Red" -- sidenote: short stanza played as part of jam at > the Zoom Club, Frankfurt, Oct. 13, 1972, the inaugural show of the > Wetton/Cross/Bruford/Muir/Fripp ensemble) > One More Red Nightmare (from "Red") If you're going to mention Fallen Angel like that, it's worth adding that the riff that would later open OMRN can be heard being played around with in a jam in the Great Deceiver box. About 3:30 into the jam named "The Golden Walnut" (Toronto show) Fripp starts playing it and Wetton eventually picks up on it a little. Very interesting to hear, I wonder if they had played around with it before this particular show... /\/\ \/\/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:43:54 -0500 From: Mikewyz at aol dot com Subject: One More Red Nightmare live "Mike" said: > It costs less than $0.68 to make a CD, this includes the "jewel box" and > inserts. This price is based upon a limited run of 5000, it likely costs > MUCH less for major label runs of multi-million sellers like Santana, N Sync > etc. However, before you blame your "local CD rip off merchant", we (CD > retailers) usually PAY $11-$14 for CDs we sell for $14-$17. The LIST price > (manufacters suggested retail price) from the major labels has leapt > drastically in the past few months, CDs that listed for $11.98 last month > are now listing for as much as $17.98 and new "Hot" releases are listing for > as much as $19.98 for a single CD! Cassettes now list for as much as $12.98 > for a single tape! A $3.00 cost increase to the retailer (and subsequently, the > consumer) based on a $0.02 increase in the pertoleum cost of a CD? You do > the math. Corporate greed, (im)pure and simple. While I do not disagree with Mike about the undeniable presence of Corporate Greed (tm), there are many more costs to a compact disc than are mentioned here. Sure, the CD manufacturer may only charge $0.68 for the assembled physical product. Studio time is VERY pricey; and if a band/artist is fortunate enough to have a studio of their/his/her own, then it most certainly cost a bundle as well. On the other hand, here's something - printed without permission - from a recent U.S. News and World Report . . . aha, here it is - page 48 of the Apr. 24 issue: DOWN WITH CD PRICES? TIME WARNER BLINKS by Joellen Perry That Red Hot Chili Peppers CD you've been coveting could be cheaper soon. Last week, Time Warner's music division said it had inked a deal with the Federal Trade Commission to halt a policy - called minimum advertised price (MAP) - the agency believes keeps prices high and stifles competition. Under MAP, record labels give retail stores subsidies to promote particular titles. BMG Entertainment might fund a store's entire ad budget for a chart topper like Santana, for example. Retailers, in turn, agree not to advertise at prices lower than those set by the labels. The FTC has since 1997 also been looking into the MAP policies of Sony Music Entertainment, Universal Music Group, and EMI Group. MAP has been controversial since it became a CD-industry standard in the mid-1990s. Advocates claim MAP lets small music stores compete with megaretailers like Circuit City and Wal-Mart, whose profits don't depend solely on CD sales. Such superstores can slash CD prices "to draw people in, then sell them lawn mowers," says Mike Dreese, CEO of Newbury Comics Inc., a New England CD retail chain. Dreese contends that MAP quashes competition by forcing retailers to converge around a particular price. Time Warner's capitulation may be an attempt to get in the FTC's good graces. The company has two major mergers - one with Web giant America Online and another with EMI Group - awaiting FTC approval. "I wouldn't be surprised if there were some horse trading going on," says James Langenfeld, a director at consulting firm LECG/Navigant and a former FTC official. Though the FTC has yet to rule on the Time Warner deal, experts predict it should take just a few weeks to get a green light. Then, competition may prompt other major labels to drop their MAP policies. As a result, CD prices - now averaging about $18 in stores for a new release - could decline by as much as a dollar. [The End] Damon ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #660 ********************************