Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #658 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 658 Thursday, 20 April 2000 Today's Topics: Oxford '82 and other things Re: CGT + T-Lev An actual question about KC 24-bit Islands; Wallace the answer is..., & more words KC & The Smashing Pumpkins Lizard LE and KCCC for Sale Richard Leo Johnson/Waters of Eden Dream... Re: Nobody knows the answer to that trivia question? Islands And Things Deception of the Thrush re: attack on culture Frame by Frame I Have A Dream; The ConstruKction Of Light Fripp @ G3 unusual idea for KCCC Amazing. . . The RED era Musicians ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:11:53 +0100 From: John Peacock Subject: Oxford '82 and other things > Ivor Canning asked: > > Did I really just dream it or did I see KC at Oxford Polytechnic on > Wednesday 10th March 1982 for a mere #2.50 It was certainly no dream - I was there too, just in front of Fripp. I had seen KC at Aylesbury Friars the week after Discipline came out (which was freaky enough, since I had considered KC to be a 'dead' band), and then they turned up at this tiny venue a few months later. I think this was right at the tail end of that tour, just before they went into the studio to record Beat - they had done Neal and Jack and Me, and Neurotica (in some form - quite different I think) and it was interesting to see how they had evolved. Furthermore it wasn't in the Poly's main hall in Headington (a proper theatre with a stage and everything) but at the halls of residence in Wheatley (about the size of a school cafeteria). The stage area was a couple of steps up - they were close enough to touch, if any of us had been inmpolite enough to try. I remember we had to walk most of the way back to Thame. And it was worth it. Oh, and James Beard said: a) "I have a copy of the new Krimson album, and I have to say that I'm not yet convinced about the all-electric line up." and also b) "I'm not being *forced* to buy the albums!" I suspect that, if (a) is true, then you are not buying the albums at all, or at least this one. Not trying to be nasty, I just thought I should point this out. For my own part, I'm rather looking forward to it. Whilst Bob Pascarella referred to Mr Fripp's travails on the G3 tour. The acoustic guitarist Adrian Legg has also been a part of this Fretwankfest. Has anyone any idea how he fared. Is it policy to have an off-the-wall selection on the tours (although Mr Legg is quite widdly-widdly, although in a drily-witty-seated-fingerpicker sort of way)? John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:31:10 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Re: CGT + T-Lev In ET 656, Kevin wrote: [...] > I know I'll catch some flack for this, but the only low point in the show > was when they performed two of L. Lev's pieces. I'm > beginning to believe > that his compositions are in best form when he's > collaborating with others. > (I guess the same can be said for the holy one, Fripp.) > Although Tony' pieces were melodic, they were almost too pretty for the > kind of music these other men have been creating. What a strange criticism. When I caught their show at the Orion in Baltimore, I found myself enjoying Tony's pieces more than the usual cute set-pieces the CGT plays. Enough, indeed, that I bought his album immediately after. What struck me, especially in the CGT version of Tony's title track (which can also be heard on their new live album) was how much it reminded me of 1973-period Genesis. At certain points in some of their music everyone, including keyboardist Tony Banks and drummer Collins, picked up an acoustic guitar and played an intermeshed riff. It was an unwitting precursor to the CGT sound, and Levin's "almost too pretty" melodies were strikingly Genesis-like as well. --TW (Dr P) dc-et #6 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:37:01 EDT From: Wilcox660 at aol dot com Subject: An actual question about KC Hi - Robert Fripp has observed that much of ET content is about KC fans, not KC (or words to that effect - don't go anal on me). So here's an actual KC question. Answerable by either a KC member, or a knowledgable fan. Going over the entirety of KC's studio output, are there any songs that have never been performed live? If so, which ones? -John A.Wilcox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:32:34 -0700 From: "John Miller" Subject: 24-bit Islands; Wallace Well, 24-bit Islands. Nice job. As for Ian Wallace: Great Drumming. Enough said. J. Miller ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:35:25 -0400 From: "Dan B." Subject: the answer is..., & more words OK, here's the answer to that trivia question: the album is Rough Mix by Pete Townshend & Ronnie Lane, released on record in 1977, and rereleased on CD in 1983, on Atco/Atlantic. Pete brought along a great batch of songs and Ronnie Lane supplied his share of some classics. Great singing and playing, and a nice low key quality about the whole project. R.I.P.(?) Ronnie Lane. 3 wise E-T'ers answered correctly in private, while another answered publicly in E-T in that stealthy manner often attributed to such a class of critters. Mel Collins does a blistering sax solo on Lane's "Catmelody" with Charlie Watts on drums and Ian Stewart on "roadhouse" piano thumping away in the rhythm section. Boz plunkz basz on the wispy finale C&W standard "Till The Rivers All Run Dry". I bought The Great Deceiver the Tuesday afternoon it was released those years back--must have been around 70 dollars with tax. For those that are worried it is too expensive, the improvs from Penn State University, June 29, 1974 justified my rate. Pretty sure it's a backwards guitar during the chorus of "Prince Rupert Awakes". Quite easy to do--just reverse the tape on the 'ol reel-to-reel. For what effects were used on the guitar signal beforehand, maybe check the trash bins of Wessex Studios. Can't remember about "Book of Saturday"--haven't heard the studio version in a long time! -- "He doesn't eat the hot dog just the bun. His favorite planet is the sun." -- Gregory Kirsch, age 8 "It's time for the human race to enter the solar system." -- Dan Quayle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:03:42 +1200 From: "Paul Brobbel" Subject: KC & The Smashing Pumpkins Has anyone noticed the current incarnation of the Smashing Pumpkins has offered sever references to KC ? Quite unusual for mainstream rock bands to mention KC at all. You may know that the new bassist is Melissa Auf Der Maur. In a French interview earlier this year Billy Corgan jokingly commented that the Pumpkins were Melissa's second choice as a band, since she was really hoping to have got the bass playing gig in KC. Another KC element crops up in a song off their recent album "Machina", in the song "Glass+The Ghost Children". A review in a magazine from NZ said that this should be renamed "Glass+The Ghost Of King Crimson". Aparently the presence (about 2 bars) of woodwind instruments in that song are typical of the KC formula. I wish song writing was only that easy. Throw in some woodwind and you're KC inspired !!!!. Still it was nice to see my two favourite musical forces come together for a few brief fmoments. Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:17:21 -0700 From: Todd Crane Subject: Lizard LE and KCCC for Sale Hello ETer's Thanks to the combination of my own impatience and slow order processing by an online merchant, I am now the proud owner of an extra copy of the limited edition cardboard sleeved Lizard cd. It can be yours for $16.00 including the S&H (U.S. Priority Mail). I also still have a copy of KCCC #7 Project Four - Live in San Francisco that I did not receive any worthwhile trade offers for. It can be yours for $20 including S & H. If someone wants both items, he or she will move to the front of the line and the price will be $35.00 total (shipping outside the U.S. may increase price). Thanks, Todd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:47:25 -0400 From: Dan Cooper Subject: Richard Leo Johnson/Waters of Eden 1. In ET 657, Dave & Racqui wrote: "It turns out Richard Leo Johnson, another of the night's performers, will be the opening act, at least for Nashville. Richard is very talented, playing a custom dual neck acoustic, one neck twelve stringed, one neck six. His harmonics/pops/slides/slaps are slightly reminiscent of Michael Hedges, but don't get me wrong, his style is quite different." I also made the Hedges comparison when I saw him open for CGT last October in suburban Washington, DC. When I spoke to him after the show, I said that I could hear a bit of Hedges in his playing. He politely acknowledged my awkward attempt at a compliment (I loved MHs' sound) but said that he wasn't really a big fan of Hedges and was more influenced by Leo Kottke. Hey, you could be influenced by worse! Great to hear he's opening in Nashville. If you find his CD Fingertip Ship in your local CD store, buy it. You will not be dissapointed! 2. Bought Waters of Eden. TLev goes new age. I have always been a huge Levin fan; in fact, I first discovered Crim when I found out he was their bass player, having followed Gabriel in the late '70s/early 80s, the now-infamous (at least in ET) "Waiting for the Big One" era. And two of my favorite CDs of the past few years were Upper Extremities and Blue Nights. Hearing Bruford & Levin jamming outside the parameters of KC is a singular delight. However, Waters of Eden is not quite as good. Though he is experimenting with different genres of world music (by "world" music, I guess I'm using the conventional narrow definition, which is anything not performed by white people from North America or England!) the compositions are just bland. A few of the songs have interesting riffs, but the introductions meander along for what seems like an eternity before finding the groove (and that stretches the definition of groove). However, there is a beautiful duet by Tony and his brother, keyboardist Pete, dedicated to their mother. And in the end I'm happy to support a musician like Tony Levin who is trying to make music by his own terms, and not within the parameters of what is expected of "studio musicians" -- go into the studio with Wheezly Stan, play some lame bass lick, get paid tons of money, and lose all sense of individual creativity ... but that's just my opinion, I may be wrong! DC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:01:36 -0400 From: "G. Emory Anderson" Subject: Dream... I feel a little cheesy posting about a Crimson related dream, but hey! What's ET for, but cheesy posts about Crimson? But the dream does have some interesting subtones... I was somehow hanging with Pierre Boulez (the French conductor/composer whose music kicks ass, by the way). He was playing a hexaphonic recording of one of his recent works (this isn't that farfetched--he actually has composed a couple of pieces that use multichannel sound in conjunction with a live band), and the sound was very Crimson-like. No, it didn't sound like a Crimson tune per se, the structure was different and more complex and a-linear (with Pierre Boulez this is possible in the real world!). But the energy was very Crimson like. I was quite excited because by proceeding via an artistic method that was entirely "unaware" of Crimson or anything related, he had entered the same emotional territory. As the dream ended I was going to play him (Boulez) some recent crimson, and I knew he too would be excited. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:27:01 -0400 From: DOUG dot OTTE at carefirst dot com Subject: Re: Nobody knows the answer to that trivia question? Dan B wrote: Also nobody responded to my query on the new Lizard remaster. Therefore, i've surmissed that either the mix is not resoundingly different--the two-track earlier CD master was probably just run threw some newer mastering gear like the latest gen. equipment from TC Electronic to 'brighten' it up a bit more(?)--or that those that bought the mini-LP bought it for the packaging and haven't played the damn thing! --- I thought somebody would have responded by now, so I didn't. Lizard is also one of my favorite KC albums. I thought the '89 Def Ed sounded quite clean, too. I don't hear any difference in the new version. However, I previously sold my '89 copy to the used CD store, so I can't do a side-by-side comparison. However, it's well worth it for the scrapbook. I was surprised to read so many favorable reviews after the album's first release. Also, this is the first time I've seen photos of this band. You might as well wait for the jewel box version, though. The mini-LP cover is still too small for such a detailed cover. It won't improve your viewing over the standard 10 cm jewel size. Also, as someone else already wrote in ET, the colors seem a bit washed out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:59:47 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Islands And Things William Allison wrote... > >I'm also wondering why there is no King Crimson usenet newsgroup. > Anyone? > >[ There used to be, but it seems to have disappeared. -- Toby ] > rec.music.king-crimson > It's still out there, but pretty quiet near as I can see. This newsgroup was never set up properly (ie, by going through alt.config) so it is not being propogated in the normal way. Unfortunately, it can't be re-created so it has to remain that way. Blame the original creator! r r wrote... > I came home friday night tired........And to my surprise the new club > cd # 10 sitting on my coffee table! Wow i thru it on the cd machine i > have and what a great piece of recording.You can hear the fans > screaming their heads off! Listening to this great recording (which was clearly made by an audience member) I can get a glimmering of just how irritating it must be to play to people who behave like this. The screaming is bad enough (it makes the screamer sound like he/she is either in pain or having a baby) but the hooting and whistling that inevitably goes on during the quiet passages is infuriating. What is there to be gained? I agree, though, that it's perhaps the best KC performance I have ever heard with only the possible exception of 'Night Watch'. taper88 wrote... > Concerning the furor over Earthbound, will it be released or not? I > would say probably not, especially as an "Official" release. The sound > qaulity is atrocious and is actually painful to listen to. I urge you to speak for yourself. This was the first KC album I ever owned and I still adore it. I have yet to hear a better version of 21CSM anywhere else. Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Mellotron M400 #996 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Hammond T500 #252302 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:03:50 -0400 From: fritz dot kiffmeyer at firstunion dot com Subject: Deception of the Thrush Has anyone figured out the "words" that are "spoken" in this song? If so, would someone mail these to me offline? Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:15:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: re: attack on culture >>"Let us continue our attack on culture." >>Fripp used to introduce a powerful song with those words, back in 1971-74 Concerning this, Rainer Straschill wrote : >The Fripp quote you are most probably referring to is >"We shall now tune our mellotrons >and attack culture once again", >Fripp's intro to "Fracture" on >"The Night Watch" album. Yes, thats a fine example of "attack on culture" intro speech, but there are many others. Like the Oxford, November 25, 1972 gig : "Let us continue our devastating attack on culture with a song called 'Daily Games' (Book of Saturday)" Edgar Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:18:42 EDT From: "who what" Subject: Frame by Frame This may be of interest to ET-ers in the New Orleans area: While in New Orleans last week for a conference, I wandered into the Virgin Megastore on Decatur Street and was surprised to find not one, but two copies of the "Frame by Frame" boxset. I immediately snatched one up. There's one left... --Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:45:27 +0200 From: Piotr Zlotkowski Subject: I Have A Dream; The ConstruKction Of Light Dear ETers, I have to admit that after listening to "I Have A Dream" I heaved a sigh of relief. "The ConstruKction Of Light" probably will not suffer from its absence. It isn't the best thing Adrian Belew has written, indeed. But even if it were the best thing we've ever heard Robert Fripp, as the leader of the band (although he sometimes says he is not the leader; now we all can see he actually is), would still have the unquestionable right to exclude it from the album. So why didn't he tell outright that he didn't want it on the album? And made a major contribution towards this big confusion? And showed his colours leaving the full-band version intact? I can't understand it and it's the only thing that makes me bewildered. The more so as the lyrics are not controversial, for sure. I also had an occasion to listen to the title track from the forthcoming album. And in my opinion it's an unexpected reversion to the Discipline era with some new ideas taken from the ProjeKcts and without any resemblance to the music from Thrak. I wonder how the whole album will sound... Peter. -- PRZEWODNIK PO ZAPOMNIANYCH GRUPACH ROCKOWYCH: http://www.amwaw.edu.pl/~pzlotko ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:02:50 -0700 From: "Mike" Subject: Fripp @ G3 >...interesting showing for RF. He simply sat there,twiddling with his rack > devices and layering up guitar lines ...Mostly, he played to the > maintenance crew. Often he would walk off stage and stand to the far left > and listen to the repeating patterns..then slowly saunter back, > make a subtle adjustment or add another line and walk away again.... Saw G3 in Montreal that year JUST for Fripp...the crowd, with a few exception (those clustered around the stage observing Fripp) were uninterested in the soundscapes and were looking (listeneing?) for some "wailin' gee-tarz" and were most unimpressed. A tough crowd and their disinterest seemed to show affect RF. There too, Fripp would set his "loops" and walk stage left to talk to the roadies and sip tea returning occasionally. He seemd uninterested in the perfomance "just going trough the motions". One of the folks I went to the show with commented that "Fripp could have just dialed this one in from home and saved the airfare" True, the house lights were up throughout the perfomance and the crowd seem unsure if this was part of the show or not. > But at the end of the show, Steve Vai invited all the guitarists up to >"jam" on a simple blues 1-4-5 thing in the key of A. I believe it was "My Guitar Wants to Kill Yo' Mama" >Then they throw it to Robert (who insists on standing WAY to >the left out of the light). Well..Robert sets up a quick layer thing in >the key of H# (or was W flat?) I don't even think hos guitar was plugger in at the show I saw >I'm also sure poor Robert was dragged out there by the other guys. No, I think he "jammed" at most shows Any other folks catch a better performance at any of the other G3 gigs? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:43:24 -0400 From: Johnnyroman Subject: unusual idea for KCCC " "We've been toying with the idea of doing an album of Crimson songs the way they shouldn't be done - 'Cadence And Cascade' as a reggae, 'Schizoid Man' as a big band swing..." Does this idea resonate with anyone else? I'm sure he was joking for the interview, obviously too much of a financial risk for a mainstream album. But...But... what a perfect idea for the Collector's Club, eh? I'd LOVE to hear Dinosaur as a Waltz, or a folk version of Cat Food" After reading this I started messing around with things and started making a "remix" of Matte Kudasi. If I heard what im hearing now about a week ago i wouldve shot myself, but just cause I'm in a 'silly' mood I'm going ahead and doing the unthinkable. On another note, I think I just successfully made the first jungle beat in history thats in 7/4. Maybe I'll post a clip of this massacare on one of my sites... mike ps: Please don't call to attention that Matte Kudasi is not in 7/4; I am already well aware! pps: If any of you know of any electronic music with beats in odd time signatures, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:56:51 -0600 From: Matt McCaffree Subject: Amazing. . . For some reason, "Lizard" and "Islands" get the least amount of playing time of my KC albums. But after all the "Islands" talk around here lately, I decided to whip out my copy and have a listen. What a great freakin' album. I think it's so unbelieveably cool that the band that brought us "Lark's Tongues In Aspic" is the same band (in name) that brought us "Islands." And the man who brought us "The League of Crafty Guitarists" is the same man that brought us the ProjeKct 2 techno-version of "Schizoid Man." Fripp has to laugh his ass off everytime someone posts negative thoughts about certain albums to this site. When you're responsible for music on such opposite ends of the tonal spectrum, of course there are going to be a bunch of people who aren't going to like everything. In theory, he should have the largest fan base of any musician in the world. What a bad mutha. Oh by the way, me and a buddy of mine (who's not a huge Crimson fan) went to see the California Guitar Trio not long ago (now those guys are amazing). Before we got there, I told him that a lot of the people at the show were probably going to be Crimson fans (and judging by the number of "Discipline" shirts I saw there, I was right). Anyways, when the lights came up at the end of the show, my buddy looked around and said, "Man, there are a lot of nerds in here." Ha ha ha ha!!!! Being one of them, I thought that was pretty dang funny. See you turds, I mean nerds later, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:46:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Bello Subject: The RED era [Badly formed multipart message, contents not processed] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:43:47 -0700 From: "Rikala, Erik" Subject: Musicians Hi, I was wondering if Elephant-Talk (or somewhere you may know of) could (or does currently) help musicians into Crimso and prog music in general get together by geographic location. I think this would be an excellent addition to your site (even if it were completely self-contained and merely a link on the main Elephant-Talk site). It's very difficult to find musicians with the drive and creativity of most ET'ers and helpin us find eachother would be invaluable. The ads section is such a jumble of topics / a separate dedicated area would be a joy. Thanks for your consideration, Erik Rikala * 1-800-PINACOR X66505 (480) 366-6505 ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #658 ********************************