Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #646 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 646 Friday, 17 March 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: book on RF now available online for free Some KC related items for sale. Honor the music..Honor the Artist Fripp/Summers Re: Mexico City for DOWNLOAD? KCCC9 & Bootlegs "Live In Mexico City" Not Available For Download Re: Mexico City for DOWNLOAD? Soundscapes Rare Islands LP? Collectors Club Releases '71-'72 Islands era Boston Tea Party show Re: starless/TCOL/etc Re: The construKCtion of light Re: Earthbound/USA The New Album ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 21:27:25 -0800 From: eric_tamm at peoplesoft dot com Subject: NEWS: book on RF now available online for free I have posted the full text of my book, "Robert Fripp: From King Crimson to Guitar Craft" on the Web. Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/pitkin_family/tammfripp.html regards, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:42:26 -0800 From: "Brad Cook" Subject: Some KC related items for sale. As a reader of ET for six years I don't feel too uncomfortable using our fair newsgroup to announce that I now have a few KC related items (Wetton, VdGG, David Torn) up for auction on ebay. To see said items go to: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=digme DigMe, Brad Cook MailCity. Secure Email Anywhere, Anytime! http://www.mailcity.lycos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:43:31 -0500 From: Bob Pascarella Subject: Honor the music..Honor the Artist Honor the music..Honor the artist. Let us now honor the silence by ending this discussion. The Honorable Robert Pascarella ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:09:55 -0500 From: Kevin Rowan Subject: Fripp/Summers Greetings, I was channel surfing around the cable television the other day, clicking on and passing MTV2 in the process, until my brain said, "Hey, that looked like Fripp." I turned back and, sure enough, it was. It was a video of him and Andy Summers playing I Advanced Mask. I was wondering if there was a VHS of Fripp/Crimson stuff that had that on it. Does anyone know? Kevin Rowan Washington DC krowan at aibs dot org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:13:37 -0500 From: Chad Ossman Subject: Re: Mexico City for DOWNLOAD? Hello Dan, Craig, and all ET'ers, Being a Mac user very frustrated with BootlegTV's choice of the Windows Media Player format, I leapt with joy at the announcement of the KC concert finally being available for the Mac platform. But unfortunately, David Craig is correct: the full concert is available for streaming only, not for download. The BootlegTV FAQ reads: "Live In Mexico City" and "Dinosaur" are only available for streaming on both the Macintosh and Windows platforms. Perhaps BootlegTV is using some kind of cookie detection to deliver a custom page to Mac users that doesn't offer a download link? Regardless, I vote strongly for BootlegTV to value availablility to users over whatever Microsoft can offer. As I understand it, other *cross-platform* formats like Liquid Media do include time-limits, copy restriction, and other types of methods of requiring payment for download. I have't read Steve Ball's diary entries yet, but will do so now with interest... best, Chad Ossman ___________Pseudo.com_______FringeDigital.com___________ Animator Freelance Designer 212.358.0409 f 425.984.9950 cossman at pseudo dot com e clo at fringedigital dot com http://www.pseudo.com w http://www.fringedigital.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:10:11 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: KCCC9 & Bootlegs Greetings all; I've been catching up on a few ETs, and I must say it's always a joy to read a well-written review like Steve Smith's of KCCC9. Richard Thompson once disparaged internet fans (i.e. us) as "They're worse than professional critics, they're amateur critics", but the upside of that, of course, is that you occasionally get to read something informative by someone with a *lot* of knowledge of (and insight into) the music of that particular artist. Which, needless to say, is not usually the case with professional critics. As for the release itself, I can only hope that the number of people who slag off this version of KC will drop considerably as this performance becomes more widely known. I haven't given it as much listening as Steve apparently has, butmy first impression is that it certainly holds its own (IMO) with any other incarnation of KC. I guess a lot of the negative "press" that KC v.2 gets is due to "Earthbound" itself. I'll never forget the day my high school friend and I discovered a Spanish re-issue (with a completely hideous "Legends of Rock" LP cover) in a used record store (c. 1982 or so). The counter clerk could barely contain his disdain as he informed us that it was "widely known to be the worst King Crimson album ever" (this was a shop that specialized in various flavors of "prog" and avant garde rock, btw). And of course, it probably is, by any objective standard; certainly most people would consider it unlistenable based on sound quality alone. And the inclusion of two of the blues jams (which I only now know to be encores) out of five tracks serves to give an unfair impression of both the band's (in general) and Boz's musical abilities. Yet to anyone with ears and the willingness to listen objectively, the version "Schizoid Man" from that album -- and the versions of "Sailor's Tale" from "Earthbound" and "Islands" -- show clearly that this version of King Crimson could be as powerful and awe-inspiring as *any* other version of the band. I've always hungered for a more representative release from this group and I'm glad we have it now. Having heard one wretched-sounding bootleg from 1971 (Plymouth, UK), I can only hope that we get to hear the much-touted Academy of Music show at some point in the future. Ah, yes. Bootlegs. I suppose I should put in my two cents' worth before Toby declares this a non-subject for ET (which would be a shame, because the issue of bootlegging is possibly more crucial for KC than it is for almost any other commonly-bootlegged rock artist). My general feeling on bootlegs is that they serve a valuable purpose (not unlike the KCCC, which most musicians have neither the resources nor inclination to emulate); they provide material for the rabid fan (or obsessive completist) using an underground economy that makes it worthwhile for the "record company" to produce in extremely short runs. The economic argument against bootlegs, IMO, is nonsense. Bootleggers aren't "stealing" anything from the artist, they're releasing something which the record company has chosen *not* to release, for that small number of fans who want it anyway. Most bootleggers would be glad to pay the miniscule amount of mechanical royalties owed on their 500 and 1000-piece CD runs if they could do so without incurring the wrath of law. Any artist concerned about lost royalties due to bootlegging could easily release the exact same recording (or a better one) himself and completely undercut the bootleggers -- a la "B'Boom" -- but most choose not to do so because it's not economically worthwhile to do so, and it's not cost-effective to go after the bootleggers legally. So when it comes to money, I say let the bootleggers have their bootlegs, along with anyone who doesn't mind spending $20-$30 for a single CD. But our beloved Mr. Fripp (O.B.M.F.) raises a whole different set of issues with regard to bootleggers. He, of course, addresses himself to an issue that most rock musicians are completely unaware of: the subtleties of the concert experience. And, I think he's not unjustified in his concern. People make excuses about how bootlegs give you the ability to re-live a once in a lifetime experience, but I think O.B.M.F. would be right when he replied that he is selling you a ticket to that once in a lifetime experience, not the ability to re-live it, and that that unique experience is changed every time someone makes a copy of it. I must confess, in the spirit of full disclosure, that I count myself in the "rabid fan" category and that I do, in fact, collect live "field recordings" of a wide variety of musicians, including King Crimson, but part of the reason I've never become a taper myself is that I, personally, would rather *experience* a concert while I'm there than worry about getting it down on tape. If the volume suddenly increases in the middle of "Thrak", I don't want to have to worry about whether my levels are peaking. Now, obviously, I'm grateful for the fact that there are tapers who feel otherwise, and who *are* lugging their equipment around, taping artists with permission (the Dead et al) and without (K.C. et al). This is for purely selfish reasons due to the fact that I enjoy listening to concert recordings. Yet I would be willing to sacrifice the recordings of King Crimson in a minute if it meant that the quality of attention at the concerts would improve. I first saw the "Thrak" tour in Boston and New York, and even in the second or third row of the orchestra at Town Hall, there was some dipshit talking to his friend during the songs. The crowd in the balcony at the Orpheum was unbelieveably chatty, and it wasn't until that fall, when I drove two hours to an almost-completely-unpromoted show in Springfield, that I got to experience the Double Trio (for the last time, it now seems) among an almost-completely-attentive crowd of hardcore Crim fans. But is this really applicable to stealth taping? Stealth tapers are, by definition, stealthy, so does it really affect the overall experience? I would argue yes... if one person standing near the taper is distracted because the *taper* isn't giving the music 100% of his attention (say, the taper is checking his levels or changing a tape or something), then *that* person's experience has been compromised. And for a musical experience like King Crimson (different in quality than almost any other "rock" performers), that is unacceptable in my view. For most rock bands, of course, you're lucky if you don't have someone behind you talking through the entire concert, but King Crimson aspires to a higher level of acheivement than most rock bands, and I think their audiences (us) should, as well. Their music takes a much higher level of concentration to play, and it warrants a much higher level of concentration from its listeners. And finally (yes, finally!), some food for thought for those who propose that King Crimson and other musicians should be convinced to become more "Dead-like" in their attitude towards live taping. The Grateful Dead eventually had to create a separate "taper's section" at their concerts (starting in late 1984). This wasn't because they were suddenly moved by a spirit of benevolence; it was because they were sick of seeing tapers hassling, getting in the way of, and generally annoying the fans who were just there to enjoy the music. Fortunately for Deadheads, the Dead were willing to go to the extra trouble of setting up a taper's section -- printing separate tickets, arranging to have tapers come in through a special entrance so their gear could be searched, etc. -- but they were also touring a much different level than a band like King Crimson. The Dead by then were doing 2-3 week tours of hockey rinks and outdoor sheds three times a year, and earning most of their income through touring. They could afford to spend a little extra time and money to accommodate their tapers, but they were also an exceptional case (as in so many other ways), and I don't think most groups (especially touring on a smaller scale, a la KC) are willing or able to go to the same lengths. And they shouldn't have to, just because some taper thinks that his "right" to have a record of a performance overrules the performer's rights to dictate the conditions of that performance. --Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 13:32:52 -0600 From: "BootlegTV Solutions" Subject: "Live In Mexico City" Not Available For Download Recently there have been several posts to Elephant Talk regarding downloading the "Live In Mexico City" concert. Currently, the Mexico City concert is available only as a non-DRM-encoded audio stream, playable through the Windows Media Player (available for Windows or Macintosh platforms). There are no immediate plans to make the entire concert available as a non-DRM-encoded downloadable file. The most up-to-date information on current and upcoming BootlegTV offerings is available on the BootlegTV web site (www.bootlegtv.com) or through the BootlegTV Newsletter. There are also newsletters for King Crimson and Peter Murphy enthusiasts. To subscribe to any of these newsletters, go to the BootlegTV Preview web page, and click on "BootlegTV King Crimson Newsletter>>", and follow the instructions from the subsequent page. Questions, complaints, suggestions or praise regarding BootlegTV can be addressed to solutions at BootlegTV dot com or info at BootlegTV dot com. We apologize for any confusion that may have arisen. BootlegTV Customer Support ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:39:13 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Re: Mexico City for DOWNLOAD? In a message dated Thu, 16 Mar 2000 2:17:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, david craig writes: > > Ummm... the concert is ONLY available as a download. > > That statement is simply not correct. OK guys. You're correct. The audio is only available for streaming - now. When the new BTV site was put up, it was still available as a download. They have obviously changed this. Please contact BTV for more info about why and whether it will be a download ever again. Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:28:03 -0500 From: Bob Gluck Subject: Soundscapes Regarding the conversation about the term "soundscape", Robert Turner offers the correct reference as R. Murray Schafer. Schaefer started using the term in the late 1960s, leading to a mostly Canadian movement within electronic music, that developed in the mid-1970s and subsequent to that. The movement is most active in Vancouver (centered around the composers Barry Truax and Hildegarde Westerkamp), Montreal (much of this is available on the 'emprentes digitales' label), and, to a lesser degree, Paris. His notion is this: music on tape based upon sounds recorded in a physical environment (which could be outdoors, could be indoors), where the resulting sound collage specifically refers to the sense of being in that particular place. Listening to the soundscape, whether it is in the form of an aural snapshot, or a more actively composed piece, one would find oneself directed mentally and emotionally towards that particular place. The links are explicit, drawing upon actual sounds from that place. This is in contrast to musique concrete, which tends to deal in abstractions (abstract sounds placed together in collages that themselves are abstract), necessarily lacking that referential sense. I do not know, however, whether there is any real connection between R. Murray Schaefer's use of the term and Robert Fripp's. Fripp's soundscapes are, like most music, abstract, and they take the listener on a musical journey to an imaginary place, as opposed to one that exists in the real world. If his goal is ever to consider an existing physical space, as opposed to a mental or emotional place, the technique remains abstract and doesn't draw upon recorded sounds of a place. I hope that this is helpful, rather than contributing to further confusion! I teach these issues to college students and they often find them challenging to grasp. Bob Gluck -- http://www.rpi.edu/~gluckr/home.html "Ancient sky watchers saw the heavens as a kind of cosmic sculpture garden, eternal and unchanging. But modern astronomers who study huge explosions called gamma ray bursts are discovering a universe that is more like a wild, all-night disco party." (J. Glanz, NY Times, 10/26/99) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:03:33 -0500 From: badams2 at guilford dot edu Subject: Rare Islands LP? This is my first posting to ET, so I figured I would make it a simple question. I was wondering if a vinal copy of the white cover the the album Islands is worth anything? I think I remember reading somewhere that this is rare, and I was just wondering if it was true. I got it for 10 bucks at a flea market, and I think it's an interesting alternative to the crab nebula cover. - Thrakattacker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:43:01 EST From: "John Spokus" Subject: Collectors Club Releases '71-'72 Islands era Boston Tea Party show I agree somewhat with the gentleman who suggested that Academy Of Music show as a possible release; it's a fine show that I think most Crimso fans would love ,but I think I have a better show from that era sound wise. I recently acquired a Cd-r entitled 'Celebration Of The Lizard' recorded on that same tour at The Boston Tea Party that is truly an amazing show and unbelievable quality for an audience recording. I enjoyed this more and think the fidelity is superior over Jacksonville or anything else I've heard from this period. I enjoyed Jacksonville, but there is a lot of overload distortion. John in Baltimore, MD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:09:40 -0500 From: Brian Preston Subject: Re: starless/TCOL/etc Reading ET recently made me think (again) where the term 'starless and bible black' comes from (from where does it come?). It is a literaray allusion I believe. Does anyone know? Looking forward to The ConstruKtion of Light. We are saddened (?) by our not being chosen to open for the boyz in Nashville (but perhaps in later east coast dates?) Its worth proposing anyway. Adrian and Tony, if your reading, I hoped you enjoyed your discs. now back to the editing. BKP Smokin' Granny/Freehand/Onomata www.davido42.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 16:38:30 PST From: "Nomad Stem" Subject: Re: The construKCtion of light In ET#645 Lothar wrote: >Why does DGM offer this in Japan first and not worldwide for all fans at >the same time???????? Very good question!! I have never been satisfied with the explanations given for these Japan first releases. Its like there is Japan and there is the rest of the world. Last I looked the Internet reaches us all, so why aren't release made to everyone at once? It's like a form of collusion between the artist and the distributors to extort the customer because these releases tend to be made available as imports in other countries and many people don't realize alternate versions will be produced so they buy the import. At the very least the practice is confusing to the consumer. Why can't DGM post a policy statement that explains why it happens once and for all? Robert, can you explain why in an upcoming diary entry? It just seems like one of those industry things that is as much an anachronism as many of the other practices DGM doesn't want anything to do with. Nomad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:03:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: Earthbound/USA On Mon, 13 Mar 2000 Scott Steele wrote: >>If Fripp/DGM has decided not to release the album because they can get >>away with releasing the tracks on the Club, fine. Just say so and give >>those waiting for the album some closure, OK? > >Pure speculation on my part, but maybe the reason that "replacement" product >has come out is that DGM doesn't own the masters to either Earthbound or >USA. - S. If he didn't own the masters (which I don't think is true), then why go on record saying that it would be released, as he has done? I don't read the diary, but has Fripp said he doesn't own the masters, or there was som elegal trouble? --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:30:18 EST From: Bolinhed at aol dot com Subject: The New Album <<<>>>>> Does anyone know if the Japanese version will have extra tracks, as Japanese releases so often do? Jim ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #646 ********************************