Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #643 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 643 Sunday, 12 March 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Presenting KCNN - The KC News Network GIG BIZ: NAshville The bass...in guitar craft?!?! KC Live at Summit Studios Hendrix and ELP Earthbound? Bootlegs Lee Fletcher; we are lucky!; actually performing musicians Re: KC & the ever-ongoing bootlegging controversy Mexico City download RE: This is why taping is wrong A few notes about KCCC9 Summit Studios rewriting history ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 02:40:50 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: Presenting KCNN - The KC News Network Hi, this is Jeff Duke Jr., (AKA: Mr. Crimson), from the Krimson News website, I just wanted to invite people to the news site, and to let everyone know that a new feature that Dan and I cooked up called, KCNN, is now available for use. Webmasters running KC related sites, such as I, and the other anchors like Dan, report on can now learn how to incorporate the KCNN feature by heading over to http://www.elephant-talk.com/kcnn/kcnn.shtml, the "KCNN Headlines Installation Instructions" page, over at the Elephant Talk website. Users of the feature may also wish to visit this page to learn some tips on how to use KCNN to it's fullest. I'm really excited about the KCNN feature, and I hope everyone enjoys it! Oh yeah, you can find my site over at http://www.murple.com/krimson_news/. Be sure to check back often as I try to update the site with info at least 2-3 times a day. I would encourage anyone with questions or comments to email me at, mrcrimson at allcost dot com or Dan at, webmaster at elephant-talk dot com . Jeff Krimson News Further to Jeff's comments, the KCNN Headlines applet provides a quick look at the KC related news of the day. Those of you who have discovered Jeff's Krimson News site, will be familiar with the nature of his site, and how it brings together various news from all over the KC Web world. KCNN Headlines actually scans through his Web page and produces scrolling and hyperlinked headlines that can be used as a jump point to the source of the news in question. Part of this exercise was to extend Jeff's concept to reach more people, and we encourage Webmasters to add KCNN to their site. I thank Jeff for being a willing assistant. Another part of the exercise was to give me more work, because I just don't have enough things to fill up every last second of my day, and no, I'm *not* going to start my own diary to tell you (or not tell you) all the other things I'm doing as another way to while my days on this planet away (I think I'll just go lose my marbles instead! ;^) Anyway, you can find out more about KCNN (maybe it was because I just liked the name) at ET Web. Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:15:07 -0500 From: "Jeff orcutt" Subject: GIG BIZ: NAshville Hey ETers, I'm a relatively new kc fan (three years or so) and I'm going to go down to Nashcille on May 20th (my birthday) and see the show. Now isn't that a birthday present! Anyways, I've heard a lot of uncertain (elephant) talk that KC isn't going to play anything from the pre 90's era. I had the pleasure of seeing projekt two in chicago a while back and while I really enjoyed the show. But I have to addmit that ever since I saw that they were now the double duo from the double trio (even though I'm going to miss levin and bruford)I've been entertianing thoughts of them just rocking something out from the eighties. This is a little bit of a plea to fripp and just a little bit of me being excited just because I can see them again. Sorry if you believe that I have wasted your bandwidth. ANd it's been shoved into the ground but I agree that "audience tapes" (not bootlegs!) can be great things. Amazing "baby pictures". That's my ramblings. jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:08:48 EST From: J9p5x4u2r0 at aol dot com Subject: The bass...in guitar craft?!?! Hello...hello...hello... Yes that's right, I'm a bass player and I am hoping that I am not exempt from the "guitar craft". If so...sorry for wasting time and space, if not...any information of it's possibilites would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Jon Dusoe E-MAIL: j9p5x4u2r0 at aol dot com P.S. I was not the one who came up with the confusing e-mail address...sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:30:55 -0000 From: "c & m bartlett" Subject: KC Live at Summit Studios [Badly formed multipart message, contents not processed] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:27:32 -0800 From: Gerhard Regier Subject: Hendrix and ELP I read, I believe it was in an interview with Keith Emerson, that the original idea prior to ELP was a band made up of Emerson, Lake, Hendrix and Mitch Mitchel. This never happened due to contract and mangement difficulties. It is rumoured that they did get together and jam and that a tape of that jam still exsists. Hmmmmmm..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:57:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Earthbound? Every month or so, someone asks about this album, so I guess it's my turn. With the releases on the Collector's Club CDs, it starts to make me wonder if Fripp is still planning to release the _Earthbound_ album onto CD, as planned. Both Wallace and Fripp have commented on the poor quality of the tracks, so it makes me wonder if, by releasing better sounding recordings of the tour, _Earthbound_ won't "have" to be released. It was supposed to have been remastered and filled with extra tracks last year some time, but I have yet to hear any updates about it. If Fripp/DGM has decided not to release the album because they can get away with releasing the tracks on the Club, fine. Just say so and give those waiting for the album some closure, OK? - --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:45:22 -0500 From: Andrew Subject: Bootlegs I can understand the fuss about bootlegs. On the downside bootlegs: - cheat the artist of royalties - tend to be low class low quality recordings that are over priced, and in the end unless you are the average listener is cheated of of their dollar - In some cases (as with Fripp) disrespect the artist wishes On the Upside: - give us youngin the chance to hear live music that we didn't have a chance to hear do the fact that we weren't alive. - Create a record of once in a lifetime events that can be enjoyed by more than just the audience that happened to be there - present a performance in it's raw form that an official live release rarely does. yes, when The vast majority of the people who buy bootlegs tend to be dedicated fans that have all the official releases and want something more; or people that have a love for live music (this is my category :) ). I trade bootlegs almost exclusively over the internet using mp3s and I can safely say that no money is exchanged, although I have burnt copies for friends and charged the price media. It's a good medium that has a lot of potential if the traders take more time and effort into making sure there is a good level of qualities when compressing Mp3's, digitizing their own recordings, and keeping a good level of information for each show/concert. Not everybody can go see a concert. Weather they can't afford it, have to work, would have to travel, weren't informed, or parhaps weren't even born yet. Hey, you know I am 22 years old and thanks to my collection I can hear a particular band that did this amazing stuff live back in the 60's and 70's instead of just hearing about it. I think that's wonderful. Fripp has a very valid point. It's his work and his music, I can understand why he would want full control over it. But I certainly don't mean any disrespect for him or his work when I listen to a recording of a perfmance he did. I guess that's just my two cents. - --- Who wants to be a crazed looney with a funny hat? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:10:39 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Lee Fletcher; we are lucky!; actually performing musicians Dude - your loops are extremely cool. Post your website address again so that other people can hear how cool your loops are. >http://www.waterleat.demon.co.uk Attaboy. Good job man. >I agree with some other posts to date, this is my favorite Club release so far, and I've enjoyed them all. How lucky are we? Extremely lucky Bill. >I was just curious. Given that many participants in this forum describe themselves as musicians I was wondering if they were actually performing musicians or if they were of the bedroom/ basement type i.e. I have heard Neal Peart of Rush described as the patron saint of basement drummers and I thought that the members of King Crimson might serve in a similar purpose. I have played my guitar in front of real people who have applauded, or not. This occurred outside of my home. - S. np: Gone Orchestra, Free at Last scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:07:55 -0800 From: "Lee Fletcher" Subject: Re: KC & the ever-ongoing bootlegging controversy Hi, I found some interesting ideas on the subject of MP3's and bootlegging at the link below. Here's a slanted excerpt (my apologies), from one of the principal contributors John Perry Barlow (former lyricist of the Grateful Dead and EFF Cofounder) titled; "The Economy of Ideas: A Framework for Patents and Copyrights in the Digital Age. (Everything you know about intellectual property is wrong.)" "Regarding my own soft product, rock and roll songs, there is no question that the band I write them for, the Grateful Dead, has increased its popularity enormously by giving them away. We have been letting people tape our concerts since the early seventies, but instead of reducing the demand for our product, we are now the largest concert draw in America, a fact that is at least in part attributable to the popularity generated by those tapes." "True, I don't get any royalties on the millions of copies of my songs that have been extracted from concerts, but I see no reason to complain. The fact is, no one but the Grateful Dead can perform a Grateful Dead song, so if you want the experience and not its thin projection, you have to buy a ticket from us. In other words, our intellectual property protection derives from our being the only real-time source of it." source: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/events/netmusic_brbook.html#_Toc475699194 There's some truly mindblowing stuff in this article ie.) "Information is a lifeform", which has me totally baffled as to how the future of intellectual property will unravel in the next decade or so. If you are a recording artist,concert bootlegger or perhaps just an interested party in this far-reaching legal controversy you'd do yourself well to read these superlative articles from the folks at Harvard. Best regards, Will Krueger (my band's homepage is http://www.mp3.com/wkb ) *p.s. I get 17 cents for every 10 people who download my songs in a day so only go there with the knowledge that this is just an obvious scam to make myself rich beyond my wildest dreams. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:46:27 EST From: Scour12345 at aol dot com Subject: Mexico City download I know that this is the million dollar question, but... If someone can run off a copy of the Mexico City show for me, I would be more than happy to provide you with a blank CD, and possibly a second one for your troubles. If cash is desired, then I can also accommodate you. I simply must own a copy of this show, and like many other Crimso fans out there, I was unsuccessful obtaining it by way of computer. I'd also like to know if anyone knows if there are plans to re-issue "Earthbound" or "USA" anytime soon? Also, if Robert is reading this, PLEASE make sure KC stops in Philly sometime this year during the tour. scour12345 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:46:57 -0600 From: Jay Kirby Subject: RE: This is why taping is wrong On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:53:20 Bob Pascarella argued: > > these artists? Is this how you conduct yourself in other aspects of your > life? If I were to invite you to my home, would you feel obliged to steal > objects from me on the rationale that I will not be effected by the loss? > This is a specious argument. Taping something for your own use is nothing like stealing an item from someone's home. When an artist puts his performance up for display in a public forum, he essentially loses the total control he may wish he had. Would you argue that taking a photo of a famous statue or painting and hanging it in my home would be stealing just because the artist didn't want it photographed? Even if I tried to sell that photo is it really to the detriment of the original artist? If anything it gives them wider exposure because many that may not have seen the original get to experience it. I don't personally agree with selling concert bootlegs, but I don't think its possible for them to be detrimental to the artist. I'd bet that the only reason live albums started to appear in the rock world in the first place was because the record companies suddenly saw profit being made by these fly-by-night bootleg companies and wanted a piece of the action. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:31:36 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: A few notes about KCCC9 I've been reading with interest the postings regarding KCCC9, 'Live at Summit Studios' and there are just a few comments of my own I'd like to add to the discussion: 1. Firstly, I'm fascinated that no one, but no one, seems to have brought up for discussion the lack of the omnipresent mellotron on this session. The band was obviously carrying 'trons on the road, but something prohibited their inclusion on this particular date (like, perhaps, schlepping them to a radio studio when they needed to be at a concert venue instead?). Now, like Mike Dickson, I'm a confirmed 'tron fan, but it's interesting how "open" the music sounds on this disc without the orchestral chording in the background (as I'm typing this I'm listening to Fripp's guitar chords gradually swelling behind Mel's freakout solo on "Pictures of a City"). I'll add that I've owned a recording of much of the Summit Studios music for a few years now on boot (though of course the sound on the KCCC issue is infinitely superior). And I've made a few cassette compilations of live '71-'72 material for a few folks from my collection of boots, naturally free of charge. Point is, I've always included something from this particular show to illustrate just how gifted and flexible this lineup could be, given the nastiness it's taken over the years. Lots of bands, including *most* of today's snivelling and pampered superstar acts, would have refused to play such a gig without a main staple of their trademark sound. (Could you imagine Billy Corgan taking such a gig?) Here KC not only took the assignment but made an indelible statement. 2. Mel Collins is the only flutist I really ever care to hear in a rock context. 3. Boz does not sound at all comfortable singing the rather twee lyrics of "Cadence and Cascade." This is possibly indicative of this lineup's biggest problem, I think. 4. I'm really quite baffled that Ian Wallace (whose notes are otherwise exceptional and whose recent contribution to ET was laudable and enjoyable) seems to believe that "The Creator Has a Master Plan" is something Crim invented and should have developed further. It's clearly and correctly credited to Pharoah Sanders and the late Leon Thomas in the same CD booklet. You'd think that Fripp might have mentioned this when Ian turned in his notes. Still, for me, the fact that they played this tune at all makes KCCC9 perhaps the most valuable volume in the series yet. I subscribed to the Collectors Club (and buy boots) to hear and learn things about my favorite band that I didn't previously know, and this track by itself knocked me for a loop. That Fripp was also working through "LTIA1" in the same breath is more astonishing than I could have imagined, even though I knew this version of the band was working on "LTIA1" as early as 1971 at the Marquee. But I never had the slightest notion that something like "Creator" was lurking in the archives... "Trees" was the last surprise of comparable measure, but even there Rob Cervero had clued me in some time back that tapes of this oddity were in circulation. For "Creator" there was no warning that I'm aware of... 5. I still think DGM should consider the 11/24/71 recording from the Academy of Music, NYC for KCCC release, if a suitable source can be found. This performance peels paint off the walls like no other show I've heard by this lineup. The dual mellotron buildup in "The Devil's Triangle" is fearsome... if I'd been (headliner) Procol Harum, I wouldn't have wanted to follow this onstage. And the version of "Cirkus" in this show is, frankly, just bizarre. It's lugubrious and fascinating all at once. Just my thoughts, Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com NP - King Crimson, "Pictures of a City," 'Cirkus' (Scorpio bootleg), previously 'Summit Studios, Denver' (KCCC) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:23:55 EST From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Summit Studios rewriting history Howdy, I found CC#9 to be a very pleasant surprise. This is,to me, absolutely the best pre Larks Tongue live recording yet. I may be a heretic, but the original line up's recordings are so marred by poor sound quality that I can't tell that these performances were as great as they were purported to be. I also think most of the early material that didn't make it to the studio (Drop In, Get Thy Bearings, Capricorn) were not up to the standard of the material that was released. This being said, I can put up with these distractions in order to enjoy Ian MacDonald's wild coloring of every open space, Gregg's vocals, and of course Fripp's guitar work. Live at Summit Studios, on the other hand, doesn't require the listener to put up with oppressive distortion or drums that sound like someone clubbing a cardboard box. This is a commercial quality recording. These guys have gotten a bad rap. Their performance here is first class. I even disagree with Ian Wallace's criticisms in the liner notes. Most notably, it is too bad that everyone has heard that Boz became bassist trainee as a last resort. It tends to put his playing under a microscope. There are also his antagonistic statements after he left. It's human nature to say "Well, he sucked anyway. Fripp taught him to play bass 'cause they couldn't find anybody else that week and he just wasn't up to the task." When he plays something simple it is chalked up to being ok for a beginner. The same line played by Levin would be another example of his tasteful restraint. As a bass player myself, I have no problem with his perfomance here. Some of the bass lines Ian calls forced, I find to be interesting harmonic choices that work very well. I also like his vocals throughout this cd. Ian winced at his reading of "Cadence and Cascade" but I thought it to be a new interpretation and an improvement on Haskell's studio version. I appreciate that the voice on "Schizoid Man" wasn't synthesized and ditto for Ian's drum solo. The effects detracted from both on Earthbound. Mel Collins is a blast throughout. I love the post sax lineups, but I think the demonic bebop was what originally sold me on KC. I love the tortured screams that Mel wrings out of his sax. I prefer his more straight ahead intro on Pictures of a City to the forced disonance on the Macdonald recordings. (If I hadn't heard MacDonald's version on more than one performance I would think it was a series of unintentional clinkers.) The rythm section drops the ball here but it recovers and becomes a cool "Pink Pantherish" vibe. I've always preferred Pictures to Schizoid even though it has been criticized as being Schizoid redone. It's too bad they didn't use the title Ian mentions in the liner notes (Schizoid II, The Dwelling). It might have diffused some of the criticism of the song and maybe even the whole Poseidon album as being a rehash of the first album if they acknowledged it as a sequel in the first place. There's lots of classic Fripp here. I've never sided with the purists who say he sounded better pre synthesizer but if you want to make that case there is plenty of evidence here. Those soaring sustained notes are so eloquent when the amount of distortion changes or the timbre breaks. Its as expressive as a violinist and has as much passion as any blues guitarist has. The big surprise is when he whips out the riff from Lark's Tongue's Part I in the middle of "Creator." How long does he pack these pieces around before they turn up in songs? I don't know enough about drums to make comparisons between Ian and the rest of the drummers. He sounds good to me. He's right to be proud of Sailor's Tale. It is a very effective foundation. I don't know how much chops it takes but it kicks ass to me. This band has been overshadowed by the other incarnations, perhaps unfairly. I think there is a bit of having to dismiss the old band when you switch allegiance to the new band. It is the reverse of the flak Trey and Pat get for not being Bill and Tony. Misinformation in the press made it sound like they were a bunch of head bangers the evil Fripp was forcing to play faerie music when they just wanted to rock. Of course this image would make Crim fans angry and think of these guys as Robert's unfortunate mistake which he immediately corrected when he signed up the Lark's Tongue crew. Anyway, it has been long enough to judge the band on its own merits instead of our preconceptions and historical slants. This is very nice stuff indeed. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #643 ********************************