Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #639 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 639 Wednesday, 1 March 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: From the moderator NEWS: Ian Wallace Q&A reminder The Efficacy of the Live Tape Survey 9 Results are in Hi I have a question Re: Elephant Talk #638 RE: Why not to tape Re: Possible Futures Re: why not to tape Mac and KC Acoustic What About Fripp's Tapes? Best Fripp solos Heartbeat John Wetton & Qango King Crimson Live Various KC matters re: Why Not To Tape concerning nashville Mastica; Tim Bowness's remarkable perspective on KC Earthbound and USA ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:27:56 +0000 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: From the moderator Hi everyone, just a note to tell you three admin-type things. First, from now on, only posts sent to the address "newsletter at elephant-talk dot com" will ever get through to ET. So please check your address books to make sure that's what you have (it probably will be). Second, as the new album and gigs loom, I'm reinstating the subject markers "GIG BIZ:" and "GIG REVIEW:". Posts whose subject lines begin with those keywords will get grouped together in ET. "GIG BIZ" is for people enquiring about gigs -- ticket info, tickets wanted/for sale, people wanted to meet up, etc. The "GIG REVIEW" section is for posts of gig reviews. So please attach those keywords to your posts, if they apply. I will endeavour to check, but can't guarantee I'll catch them all. Third, discussion about "to tape or not to tape" is now off-limits. We've done this to death in the past. Cheers Toby -- Toby Howard ET Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:27:56 +0000 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: Ian Wallace Q&A reminder A reminder about the Ian Wallace Q&A: Ian Wallace, of the Wallace, Collins, Burrell, Fripp "Islands" incarnation of King Crimson, has kindly agreed to participate in a Q&A event with ET, much like we did a few years ago with Tony Levin. Ian will be featured on the next King Crimson Collectors' Club, "Live at Summit Studios 1972", and you can access his own record label "Artist Road Records" Web site at http://www.finemusic.com/ . To ask a question, send an email to "questions at elephant-talk dot com", with a subject that starts "Q&A". We'll take questions for 1 week following the issue date of this ET digest. I will then put them together and send them on to Ian for his responses, after which we'll post his answers in a future ET digest. Cheers, Toby ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:37:51 -0500 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: The Efficacy of the Live Tape In ET 638, Dick Ross wrote: "Fripp talked of coming home and embracing his wife. He would rather be in the moment of that embrace than have a tape of that embrace to look at. Trying to capture that embrace on tape does not allow him to be fully in the moment of that embrace. Looking at the tape does not come close to being in the embrace." This is all well and good... but it doesn't explain the release, either generally or via the collector's club, of 17 full discs of live Crimson or ProjeKCts material in calendar 1998 and 1999 alone... (I'm counting the dvd and the download as one disc each)... suddenly I feel like quite the voyeur for owning most of these... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:36:33 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Survey 9 Results are in ETers, Thanks to all who responded to the latest ET survey (survey #9). The final reponses are now tabulated and available at ET Web on the "surveys" page. No clear cut favorite Club release it would seem (unless we counted the zillion votes for "Marquee" from one ballot stuffing visitor - we know when ballot stuffing is happening folks). Also interesting results on the questions related to online music. Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:07:40 EST From: Hillel316 at aol dot com Subject: Hi I have a question Can you tell me anything about the "New Standard Tuning" [ Private replies only, please --Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 22:55:23 -0600 From: Gudrun Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #638 RE: Why not to tape First off I need to state that I`ve always asked (and received, btw) permission when taping (audio or video) the bands I see. (No point in asking King Fripp, of course. ;^) ......... Then, if any exchange is made, it`s strictly as a trade only. I certainly feel the practice of taping should really depend on the desire of the particular band/performer. It`s a courtesy. Regarding which,........... > Fripp stated, and I paraphrase, that what interested him as a performer >was the relationship between the performer and the audience. I must say, that I find this staement hard to understand coming from someone who can very often be utterly callous to the most ordinary conventions of social grace, when dealing with his audience in person. I`m referring to offstage here. ...... (Like saying "hello", bestowing a smile of recognition, or any other slight politeness which humans are commonly apt to offer one another). He doesn`t *owe* this to anyone, of course................ I know he can be most gracious, when the mood strikes him. >Trying to capture that embrace on tape does not allow him to be fully in >the moment of that embrace. A hard thing to do (capturing embraces on tape ;^),........ but is he not doing so by recording his own live performance? Answer: No more, or less, really, than the 'audient', (who nostalgically wishes to recapture some of that experience for a later "moment"). I suppose it`s hard to "be fully in the moment" when one is concerned about the ramifications of "pirating". Ultimately it`s his call. ~Craig S. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 03:50:37 EST From: SPBrader at aol dot com Subject: Re: Possible Futures An interesting post from Tim Bowness: >>Before I make a few points that some ETers might mistakenly regard as >>'burning' Robert and the boys, I don't think anyone could interpret your comments as 'burning'. >>(imagine Yes or the Moody Blues putting their collective egos on the line >>in a similarly fearless manner to the Projekcts Crimso). Compared to their >>peers (eg the aforementioned Yes), KC is in extremely rude health and even >>compared with the 90's wave of Brit Rock artists (Verve/Oasis/Radiohead), >>Crimson sound positively 23rd Century. There is a good deal of 'apples and pears' in this. Yes are not the Moodies are not Crimson. Yes are not an improvisationally motivated band. Their declared aim has been reproduce recorded music in a live environment as faithfully as possible. They make their music, Crimson makes theirs. As for being a spent force (sic), the recent activity from Yes argues against them, provided you accept them on their own terms. As far as the respective 'leaders' are concerned, I would argue that Anderson has been every bit as brave and every bit as inspired as Fripp in terms of musical vision over the years. >>My main concern (stupid >>expectation?) is that the band are not effectively competing with the true >>voices of our current Progressive culture, which, for me, over the last >>decade or so have included Tricky, Underworld, Roni Size, Bjork, Massive >>Attack and Goldie. Is competing against said alumni actually being Progressive? Does 'Progressive' follow only one direction? >>Although I've enjoyed recent KC albums, I'd replace the >>Energy/Intensity/Eclecticism motto with Energy/Intensity/Relentlessness. >>Partly due to the reliance on the rather plastic V Drums/Touch Guitar >>line-ups, the new music is frequently exciting, but rarely charming, relaxed >>or still. It is funny, and wonderful, the way music hits people differently. ProjecKts has claimed virtual ownership of ever CD player in my house in recent weeks. In terms of mood I find it all embracing. You mention it rarely being relaxed or still and yet I find it can be both even in full Roar. I thought this just yesterday as RF hit some Soundscape triggers over a volcano of sound from Mastelletto and Gunn. It was an awesome effect, like being in an isolation chamber during a nuclear war. >>If they seriously want >>to compete with Underworld and the Chemical Brothers (which they may not) >>rather than continue as an eccentric institution preaching to the >>converted, I'd suggest bringing in an outside producer such as Mitchell >>Froom, Roni Size or Brian Eno and contrasting the electronic soundscapes >>with more acoustic instrumentation and space.>> <> I can't believe they have the slightest intention of entering such a competition. Your comments however perhaps overlook one thing. ProjecKts is/was the R&D department for the 'greater Crim'. Prototypes rarely look like finished articles in every respect. Personally, if ProjecKt work does indeed show the way, then I am more excited about prospect of The ConstruKtion of Light than I've ever been for any album. Your post ends however with the most inspired of suggestions: >>Can I start a campaign to get a Kelis/Belew duet on the next album? Sign me up!! How many others immediately think of NY3 when they hear that single? Go well, Simon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:29:50 CET From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Re: why not to tape Dick Ross wrote: " Fripp stated, and I paraphrase, that what interested him as a performer was the relationship between the performer and the audience. That this event should not be reduced to a commercial event. Although it exists in a matrix of a commercial event, it is something much more than that. In this event the audience plays a major roll. The band is the father, the audience is the mother and the music is the child being born. All being present together. Fripp talked of coming home and embracing his wife. He would rather be in the moment of that embrace than have a tape of that embrace to look at. Trying to capture that embrace on tape does not allow him to be fully in the moment of that embrace. Looking at the tape does not come close to being in the embrace." Ok, I get mr Fripp's point but one thing that strikes me as a weakness of his metaphor, and in his argument, is that the "child" is moving out from its parents after only a few hours and never to return, though it may have more brothers and sisters. Perhaps it would be fitting to call the mother and father relation an extremely sporadic one. The chance of making more children don't appear very often, since when the father is "fertile", which happens with a few years interval, (and not at all 85-93, for example), he doesn't always come to the neighbourhood of the mother, and thus it takes a lot of effort and money for the mother to make another child. Besides, the father might die, he isn't as young as he used to be, you know, though he seems to be as vital and enjoying life as ever... Also the embrace is for only a very short time, and then the two embracers are apart, maybe forever, maybe just a long time. When the child is gone forever, and the chance of getting any brothers or sisters may be small, isn't it better to at least have a photo of the very highly loved child, even if it won't bring the child back??? And when you know that the embrace with your wife will be the only one for many years to come, wouldn't it be better to be able to partly relive that moment, if even just an artificial reliving, than just let that moment slip away from memory and let your last rendezvous with your own wife enter oblivion??? This is (combined with my opinion that hardcore fans of any band should be allowed to get as much live material they want and can afford, since they are likely to have everything official by the band already and won't harm the band in any way) my reason for why I principally find it morally acceptable, though debatable, to tape concerts. I will see KC in Copenhagen the 27 May, and would love to have a recording of that show. For Gods sake, can't Fripp see how much I would cherish the possibility to relive my (so far) only meeting with the Crims?? Still, I respect his opinion, though I definitely don't agree, and will not tape the show. However I know that this will cause feelings of a missed opportunity when seeing the show. You know, that feeling you get while watching some stocks you didn't buy rise, or seeing that girl you loved get together with another guy since you didn't act, or perhaps not attending a 80s KC concert, because you had just gotten into the band, and hardly knew they were touring your neighbourhood at the time. Feel welcome to disagree. /Macahan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:15:25 +0100 From: Carlo Barbieri Subject: Mac and KC I'm a joung KC fan (16), I grew up with Discipline and Macs. Unfortunately I've not been able to read many ET Issues, but in the few I read I noticed some posts by macuseres. So my question is :"are macs more common between crimsoids? If so is that because both KC and macs are a simptom of free-thought?" Carlo P.S. Forgive me for my English, I just study it at school ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 00:41:17 CET From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Acoustic Hello all! I may not be the greatest fan of MTV publicity stunts but unplugged concerts do have a certain charm and are an opportunity to revitalize older material and confront your audience more naked then otherwise. Though the Crims most definitely have changed when a change was needed, and still do so, I think it would be "shocking" to hear some of their repertoire get an acoustic treatment. I think I can imagine a LTiA (II) with three acoustic/12-string guitars rumbling, creating a totally different approach to the song than we are used to, stealing our breaths for a while. For example In the Court, Heartbeat and improvs are something I'd like to hear be given an acoustic arrangment. Just thoughts... BTW, I guess no one could have any idea about what is likely to be played on the upcoming tour this summer? /Macahan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:14:27 EST From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: What About Fripp's Tapes? In a message dated 02/26/2000 3:27:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk writes: >> Fripp stated, and I paraphrase, that what interested him as a performer >> was the relationship between the performer and the audience. So what about the situation where Fripp and KC are taping their shows for later release (or not)? Or if someone else is taping the show and neither Fripp nor I are aware of it, how does it destroy "the moment"? This is all so much claptrap. Arnold Schulberg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:40:14 EST From: RKTreemore at aol dot com Subject: Best Fripp solos Dear Team: I'm making a tape of songs with my favorite Fripp solos from the past two hundred years, and I'd like to know from y'all what you recommend. To give you an idea of what I like from The Dude, here's what I jotted down this afternoon: Schizoid Man Big Top Sailor's Tale Asbury Park White Shadow Sartori in Tangier Your suggestions may be sent to me privately if you (and Toby-mon) so desire. [ Yes, privately only, please --Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:20:53 +0000 From: Miles Chapman Subject: Heartbeat Thanks everyone who just happened to be watching the show when Moonchild was on. Astonishing how many KCers who don't normally watch it did that night!!! And me? Well, my wife likes it and I just happen to be in the room at the time, honest!!! Miles Chapman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:03:08 GMT From: aal at aws dot co dot uk Subject: John Wetton & Qango In et638: > John has a new project called QANGO it is: I saw Qango at the London Astoria 2. It was postponed from the original date of November and according to the ticket for the original date, it was supposed to be including Kieron Twist (who must have been replaced by John Young). A line-up change before they've even played to an audience. It was a good night in a small (intimate) venue. Most of the material was old Asia songs but Hoedown and Fanfare for the Common Man were also given an outing, as were a couple of JW songs. Carl Palmer was fascinating to watch and his drum solo was entertaining. Palmer also did much of the announcing (including interrupting John Young for playing the intro to the wrong song and then having to confess that it was JY who was correct). The drum solo came half-way through Fanfare... and when the band returned to finish the song there was a guest appearance by Keith Emerson, sharing John Young's keyboard. After Emerson left the stage, Palmer was loudly proclaiming that Emerson had broken the keyboard "you've got a warehouse full of them, you can afford to give him another one." There were mistakes on-stage but they were met by the band with a certain humour as the members exchanged grins. All in all it was a very enjoyable concert and I would recommend the band to anyone who enjoyed Asia in the past. Cheers Andrew Lehva LONDON ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:41:00 -0500 From: "Louis Sormany" Subject: King Crimson Live Hi everybody, Do you know the site "King Crimson Live"? You will find on it a chronological list of all the cds Live of KC (official, KCCC & Bootlegs) with the picture of the cds, the citys of the concerts and the songs on each of them. The address of the site is: http://members.aol.com/nisimoto/kclive.htm It may take longer to load some pages of this site, but it's a very interesting one. I reproduce now the last news about KC from this site: " Rumours...(may not be true) The ConstruKCtion of Light will be released in Japan April 26, 2000 The official album from DGM ProzaKC Blues (5:26) The ConstruKCtion of Light (8:39) Frying Pan (6:50) FraKCtured (9:05) Oyster Soup (6:20) Lark's Toungues in Aspic Part IV (12:56) Heaven and Earth (7:45) In Support of Their Satanic Majesties Recorded Live at Hyde Park, London on July 5, 1969 will be released in March from Scorpio New! David Silvian & Robert Fripp: The Road To Graceland Tour Recorded Live in Torino, Italy November 12??, 1993 God's Monkey Brightness Falls Every Colour You Are Jean The Birdman Firepower Damage Exposure Gone To Earth 20th Century Dreaming Wave Riverman Darshan Band Introduction The First Day Blinding Light of Heaven" I hope everybody will enjoy this site. Louis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:25:38 -0000 From: "RMUser16" Subject: Various KC matters Hi A couple of minor things The TV appearance of Robert Fripp in the UK was not the Old Grey Whistle Test, but a half hour special. The presenter was Anne Nightingale, the first female DJ on a national radio station - Radio 1. I know as I have a tape of the soundtrack (pre video days!) As for the sighting of a guy who looks like RF in a series called TV Dinners - this is Hugh Fearnley Whitingstall (yes, its his real name). Regards Mike Dennis - a fan from day 1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:07:32 -0500 From: "Dan Cooper" Subject: re: Why Not To Tape In ET 638, Dick Ross wrote: "Fripp stated, and I paraphrase, that what interested him as a performer was the relationship between the performer and the audience." This is a compelling argument against taping concerts and listening to them outside the context of the live venue. And I tend to agree that the immediacy of the live event cannot be captured by any recording, regardless of the recording medium and professional skill of the engineer. However, if Fripp is truly interested in the concert as more than a "commercial event," he might explain how the commercial releases B'Boom, Absent Lovers, the Collectors' Club, the Nightwatch, Epitath, Soundscapes, ProjeKCts, etc., etc., etc. are able to capture that immediacy better than a surrepititiously recorded DAT traded among friends. I presume that Fripp's bias against live recordings not authorized by DGM has more to do with the financial interests of DGM than the esoteric interests of artist and audience. Let's face it: Fripp hates distribution of Fripp material without his input (and financial percentage). This is his right. But despite his flowerly (at times long-winded) declarations of independence (do his liner notes have to be THAT long?) let's not forget the real reason for his protestations. Don't get me wrong. If Robert Fripp could be a multi-millionaire and Brittney Spears were forced to work at a Dairy Queen to make ends meet, the world would be a much better place. But he's not, she's not, and the world's not. All of that having been said, however; bootlegs should NOT BE SOLD, THEY SHOULD BE EXCHANGED! Peace. Dan Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:20:27 -0500 (EST) From: Adam J Cummins Subject: concerning nashville i should going through nashville some time next week, and i'm planning on stopping in to the kc bar (12th and porter) and getting as much info as my little heart can stand. i'll try to remember to post it all here afterwards. stay posted, eh? -ajc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:35:22 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Mastica; Tim Bowness's remarkable perspective on KC >Any Crimheads who'll be down here in Austin for SXSW, you must see Mastica. The downloadable files at www.mastica.net sure sound great. I wish I could make it to that show (those shows?). >There's no doubt that alongside the likes of Hendrix, Velvet Underground and Roxy Music, Crimson are one of the truly great sonic archetypes of rock culture and have influenced generations of aesthetically contradictory artists from the Prog stylings of Steve Hackett to the new wave abrasiveness of Magazine, to the outer reaches of trance dance (The Orb) and avant-garde experimentalism (Paul Schutze/Fred Frith). < . . . > In many ways, the new KC has become an honourable entry into the slightly marginalised Out-Rock territory inhabited by Tortoise, Trans Am and Labradford, or a contemporary extension of the post-'Bitches Brew' Miles Davis bands from the early 70's. < . . . > Can I start a campaign to get a Kelis/Belew duet on the next album? Thanks for your thoughtful commentary Mr. Bowness, your own work with No Man is a shining light, congratulations and continued success to you. I see what you mean when you say Labradford, but in my opinion KC is more dignified, more experienced than that (and I love Labradford too). I believe that we have only seen the tip of the newly-remade KC iceberg within the ProjeKCts box set. And yes, please start a campaign. - S. np: Steve Tibbetts, The Fall of Us All scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:57:10 PST From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: Earthbound and USA to those interested i just recently got my hands on the Russian pressings of Earthbound and USA. if any body is interested in how to get these give me a personal email and maybe i can help you. adodson19 at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #639 ********************************