Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #634 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 634 Friday, 11 February 2000 Today's Topics: NEWS: Copenhagen KC tickets NEWS: Krimson Tickets on Sale Now! the great deceiver Re: Measuring odd-times, ad nauseum Re: Negative Psychological Impact of KC it's_a_message_from_the_nandu's_land T.Levin On Ozzy Tribute? Enhanced Cirkus problems David Cross album - singer required An Humble Question about Guitar Craft A plea for old vinyl Kc in the Times Trouble with Deja VROOOM E-circles and digital trees SAOtW/LoCG In the Court of the Crimson Fool: An Observation by Me Go on fellows! Guitar synth ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:37:10 +0100 From: Ola Torstensson Subject: NEWS: Copenhagen KC tickets Tickets for the May 27 King Crimson concert in Copenhagen are now available from BilletNet . They cost DKK 200 plus booking fee. I don't know if they cater to non-Danish customers. Swedish KC fans can buy their tickets from Julius Biljettservice at SEK 288. The KC show doesn't seem to be available on their site, so you should probably call them instead (I did, and it worked fine). Tickets for the May 28 concert have not been released yet, apparently. Ola -- Ola Torstensson * ola at netch dot se * http://www.netch.se/~ola/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:31:17 -0500 From: Dave Hvizda Subject: NEWS: Krimson Tickets on Sale Now! Hi All, Tickets are now available for the Crimson shows in May at 12th and Porter in Nashville. As far as know they are only available at 12th and Porter's web site. http://www.faisons.com/newsite/ I have mine for Friday and Saturday nights. I hope to see you there. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 04:43:49 -0500 From: "Stva" Subject: the great deceiver i want to get 'the great deceiver' 4 cd set - where can i get it??? thanx, steve burdick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 15:47:42 -0600 From: Jordan Subject: Re: Measuring odd-times, ad nauseum To put this to rest, Dan B. said: " There is no "specific" or completely accurate way to denote it's passing through space--let alone an exact way to measure musical spaces or lengths of musical measures." Okay. I'm well-aware that human musicians do not play in metronomic time. At a given tempo you can lay back on the beat, sit right on top, and change your playing in other microscopic ways that contribute to the feel of the music (which makes it human, not computer-sequenced). But because musicians have to communicate the way they are feeling the music and where the downbeat is, time-signatures are an agreed-upon convention. No one, when saying for example "this tune is 7/4, I'm feeling it as alternating measures of 4 and 3", is trying to convey an exact to-the-millisecond scientific property of the music. Time signatures are an accepted musical device that helps put musicians on the same page rhythmically. Of course there will be slight rhythmic fluxuations and everyone has their own personal way of stating the time, but that doesn't need to be spoken. Even in Indian classical the pieces are constructed in definite rhythmic cycles of 11, 14, etc. I understand what you are saying about not being able to properly transcribe a raga...it's the same thing where if I transcribed some jazz playing of Philly Joe Jones, of course I could write down all the correct note values that he's playing, but it wouldn't convey his unique, individual sense of groove and swing. That kind of thing can only be communicated through listening, but nonetheless time signatures are a necessary musical communication device. I get the sense that we both know what we are talking about and just aren't communicating very well. :> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 23:48:55 CET From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Re: Negative Psychological Impact of KC Hi! The thought about Crimsons music having a negative psychological impact is actually something I had been thinking about before. A few years back in time, I made a paper in school about backwards mascing in music, which I found very interesting, and a bit mystical. With fair amounts of imagination and naivity, one actually could hear those satanical stuff in Zeppelins Stairway to Heaven and Eagles Hotel California. I got convinced that the artists deliberately had placed those secrets there, and still am, though they may not have had any deeper thoughts about the impact it would have, and which I believe is none! However, I still believe that some music IS darker than just the sum of the "dark" composition elements, depending of the intent of the artist. I do not really believe that dark forces (provided that one believes there is a dark and a good force) give a helping hand in writing, but that music intended to twist brains or scare certainly can do so, and have a negative impact on people exposed to the music. The more confident and self-secure the person is, the less the negative impact, I believe, and perhaps also greater the chance of enjoying the music. At least I found the whole Red album to be very "scaring" and dark when I first heard it. Though it scared me when playing it late & loud in the darkness, I certainly enjoyed the experience. Like when you see a horror movie because you expect the thrills and scares to move you more than make you feel sick. Though I generally don't find much pleasure in the genre, I thing some classic horror movies are worth seeing, and I guess that KC is the Shining of horror music. BTW, when I tried to arrange the guitar tabulature for Discipline, I honestly got sea sick =) I am convinced that odd time signatures are very unnatural, and especially slaughtered and twisted like Fripp does, odd meters can have some sea sickening effect on you. Thus horror music in odd time signatures can make you both cold sweat of fear and throw up. Still, I like it! Rambled enough for now. Check out my Sheltering Sky, Ladies of the Road, and Discipline-tabs on ET, whenever they pop up. /Macahan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:00:34 -0300 From: "nestor hugo andersen" Subject: it's_a_message_from_the_nandu's_land Hello friends of ET!!! ...or a machine who read this letter... I wish express myself in my own language(a mix of spanish with a intermitent bombardment of other cultures of The Umpteenth Belated Capitalism), but i believe this is impossible.Sorry about my IMPOSSIBLE ENGLISH. I am a admirer of RF & KC since my adolescence(now 37 years old) and i see him in concert at Teatro Coliseo of Buenos Aires in 1983(?or 1984? -says Orwell). Unfortunately my own socioeconomical condition(i'm a employee in a bookstore) and ,too, the same condition of my own country(The Land of the Sons of Dissappears, and The Land of the Last Beast/Emperor -Menem),it's critical , and that consign of punks:NO FUTURE is now (and yesterday too) available in all formats of conciusness or unconciusness... This condition does not permit myself buy all the cd's, softwares,hardwares and other things i want buy. EXPRESS MYSELF IN OTHER LANGUAGE IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ME The Local Market and the Industies are in the gibbet, victims of the UBC(some similar to UBIK is cassual)and It's no the allucinations of the 21th century schizoid/argentinian man, or victim of drug abuse...or ...simply alcoholism..NO this is the true. I'm connect to you into the crimsonian's develop for the past to the future... To the ET :Thanks for all!!! NESTOR HUGO ANDERSEN nesredna at infovia dot com dot ar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 06:23:06 -0600 (CST) From: w7wilsonet15 at webtv dot net (R. Wilson) Subject: T.Levin On Ozzy Tribute? My first impression upon reading this was : "WHAT"...Then it made complete sense as it should have in the first place, this is a musician without boundaries.Peter Gabriel, Seal, Black Light Syndrome (or Bozzio,Levin,&,Stephens.) Bruford & Levin. Yes, I think his Photo may be in the dictionary under "Professional"! And on the "Buffalo 66" thing with Christina Ricci Tap dancing to "Moonchild" , I rented this video upon release, Incredible segment, Pretty good Video! Crimsonite,Ric Wilson. http://community.webtv.net/w7wilsonet15/The Shiny Beast Website/Home of The Spotlight Kid. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:38:34 CET From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Enhanced Cirkus problems Hi all! Am I the only one who has problems with the Cirkus enhanced CD-ROM? The ReadMe-file says you should run CD-ROM drive:/dgm/ but my CD doesn't have that directory, just CDROM:/Data (w subdirs), CDROM:/Qtinst and CDROM:/Xtras. I've run the programs there are, but all end up asking me to install QuickTime 3.0, which I have already done, and when selecting no, to get on to the DGM catalogue, the program shuts down and nothing happens. Isn't technology wonderful??? Can anyone help? /Macahan PS I have watched the snippet of the Dinosaur video, and listened to some of the sound clips. However, I believe there is an interactive DGM catalogue, through which you can can play those files. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:31:20 EST From: Noisynoisy at aol dot com Subject: David Cross album - singer required Hello everyone, David Cross is looking for a male singer for his next album. The singer will take the lead on most of the songs (composed by David Cross, Richard Palmer-James and Mick Paul). Recording/rehearsals etc. will take place in the London area in the next few months. To get an idea of the material check out the Noisy Records website at noisy.co.uk Interested singers please send a photo, tape and short CV to Noisy Records, PO Box 17638, LONDON N12 8WP Look forward to hearing from you! David Cross and Noisy Records ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 16:55:18 GMT From: "David Way" Subject: An Humble Question about Guitar Craft Hello all. With the announcement of the Guitar Craft/NST meetings in New Jersey this April and September, I have become a bit interested, and indeed inspired, in learning this method of tuning/playing. I wish to ask the ET'ers who have attended one or more of these seminars to share their thoughts (pro and con) with me, either on the list or off. Thank you very much for your help. David P.S. Does anyone have an Ovation #4861 guitar out there, and does he/she know how I can get one (this particular model isn't listed in the on-line catalogue anymore)? Thanks again. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:33:54 -0000 From: Simon Calkin Subject: A plea for old vinyl Dear all I'm on the lookout for any old Crim boots on vinyl (with the exception of "Absent Lovers","Un Reve...","81-99",and "Senabular")."Elephant Walk" and "Heretic" would be top of the list,I guess. Please: a) reasonable prices and b) email replies to me only. Many thanks ! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:37:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Jon Hill Subject: Kc in the Times Hi all, The Projekcts box-set was named 'record of the week' in the culture section of this weeks Sunday Times. The reviewer was very complimentary about P3 and P4, comparing it to some cutting edge dance music stuff that the media loves so much. I would post the review, but I haven't got it to hand. It's odd that they award 'record of the week' to something that came out months ago. I've only got the single disc version and it's plenty for me, P3 and P4 are stonking! ---------------------- Jon Hill jh497 at soton dot ac dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:47:42 EST From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: Trouble with Deja VROOOM In a message dated 02/08/2000 8:11:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk writes: << << Has anyone else has a problem with Deja Vroom when trying to select different band members for 'Schizoid Man'? I get the same version regardless of which era I choose for any of the members. >> I can't even get to "Schizoid Band" on my DVD Player. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong or have any suggestions? Arnie Schulberg ASchulberg at aol dot com >> ------------------------------ From: "N. Scott Robinson" Subject: E-circles and digital trees Hello Well, I read the post of Alexandre Vinogradsky and I think than the idea about the Circle ain't right at all. The Adventage with this, is than, once you come in, you can, totally freely, upload and download anything, anytime. I mean, once the file is in the circle (wich is a kind of communitary page on the web) anybody can download it, and it will remain there for anyone who wants it. You ain't going to deppend of nobody, when the file is there for one, is for everyone who wants to get it. I think than the circle is a new and more covenient version of the "tape tree", works faster and better (with the idea of everybody to share new things, the catalogue can grow really faster, but NOBODY IS FORCED TO SEND OR UPLOAD NOTHING). There can be shared any kind of files, not only music. Plus, It don't need any manteinance, all the time you invert is the ocupped to download the files, the same if you gonna upload something. There is not much people in so I repeat the invitation, it's free and wasn't created to enrich with, the only purpose is share Krimson music. You only got to e-mail me to send you the invitation. Hope you join in. Landa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 13:09:04 PST From: Dave & Racqui Subject: SAOtW/LoCG Hey gang...Toby... I have recently acquired a copy of Sunday All Over the World's "Kneeling at the Shrine" CD. Nice stuff. Had a couple listens...pretty interesting. Upon the second removal from my CD player, I noticed that the CD itself is labeled RF & tLoCG, Show of Hands. This is printed on the CD, opposite the data side (obviously), straight from EG. Has anyone else come across this? Do I have a rarity? Private responses would be welcomed. Thanx Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:39:45 -0600 From: "W. Stuart Kirkham" Subject: In the Court of the Crimson Fool: An Observation by Me I'd like to thank all who took the time to reply to my posting "Discourse" in a previous release. The commentary was thought-provoking and informative. I would like to reply to several of the comments, and then stir up this hornet's nest some more. 1. "If selling music to the so-called unconverted were the primary impetus of the ProjeKct exercises, I believe the cds and performances might have contained conventionally memorable, and catchy (possibly simplistic) melodies, might have had vocals, lyrics and so forth." This is not what I meant to imply. How dare you insinuate such a thing! ;-) 2. "If the idea is that the ProjeKcts are trying to appeal to the fans that KC already has ("preaching to the choir"), brother Fripp has been humorously eloquent about the lack of major financial reward at this level of activity." This is the point I was trying to imply. Without a dedicated fan base, it sounds as if Mr. Fripp would have no financial reward at all. Mr. Fripp is a commensurate artist, but he is also a businessman. The marginal returns would be all the more reason to turn out more music that would meet our expectations. These expectations include a high demand for expert musicianship, but it also sets parameters on how the artists can express this potential. Although Mr. Fripp and company struggle against the injustices inherent in the commercial music industry, and pushed the envelope of this industry as well, he has in many ways adopted all the trappings of the industry itself, including perhaps, a worshipful fandom that to some degree or the other expects more of the same (but different, too). This is a contradiction inherent in this production process. To draw a parallel with other economic activities, mining and agriculture, a common response to declining or marginal returns is to intensify production. In tropical agriculture, this often involves an over complication of the existing production system that gradually erodes the base it is founded on. This process is called involution (see the works of Clifford Geertz, circa 1965). This is contrasted to some degree with the idea of evolution-I am getting ahead of myself, more on involution below. 3. "...what exactly does discordant mean in this context?" The author is correct in questioning my use of this word. I was using it as a catch phrase to represent the general air of criticism I had been reading lately on ET, and my usage of the term is vague. I will rephrase my question at the end of this posting. 4. "I would propose the words difficult, uncompromising or challenging as alternatives. I recognize that these words propose different views/judgments/attitudes than the word discordant, but I bring them forward for consideration of those differences. The writer is courageous to report similar experiences with Fela and Phil Glass, about whose work he later reconsidered." Several points here. First, I do not dispute the adjectives you employ here (and I compliment you on your use of language), and yes they do represent different qualities under scrutiny. I do not dispute the band's musicianship; indeed, they have no equal in my opinion. That is not what I am disputing. Also, you cannot dodge my question by changing the subject ;-) Second, and this is a picky detail, I want to clarify a few things. When I spoke of "listening differently" to the music, this was another term I used vaguely. In listening to King Crimson, I learned to listen with active attention (actually, I can trace my development of this awareness to listening to Yes; I discovered KC through tracing Bill Bruford's career, incidentally). While an undergraduate, I took a music appreciation class, and while learning about minimalism, I recognized several elements similar to those on Discipline and No Pussyfooting. My awareness increased while listening to Glass and Reich; appreciating these works required a different kind of attention. The music moved in the slight variations occurring in a static field created by repetitious elements. There was no point at which I "later reconsidered these works." As regards the works of Fela, This shift of attention occurred while listening to "Army Arrangement" for the first time, and was not something I reconsidered at another point in time. While I was trying to be brief and to the point in my previous posting, my vagueness has left room for you to misconstrue my meaning, and to paint a misleading picture of my appreciation of music. 5. "I find all of the ProjeKct material I have heard so far (five cds and one concert) to be interesting and extremely enjoyable, and I want to hear more of it." Agreed. Unfortunately, I have not had the privelege of listening to the band live. I moved to Austin five months after P3 came through, and I was teaching overseas during the THRAK tour. 6. "What these people do not understand, possibly because they have not read the insides of the CD sleeves, is that the ProjeKcts are just that, projects to see where the next step in KC is." Duh. I DID read the liner notes thank you very much, and while I did not quote their exact words as closely as you, if you had read my posting attentively, you would have seen that I do, in fact, acknowledge these points. 7. "We should commend them for what they have done, given us 4 more CDs of inspiration, of wonder and amazement and of music that is pushing the bounds of what has been defined by the masses. These masses not only being the general publics but also the mass that is the KC fan base. Each of us has an opinion about what KC is/was/ or should be, however even if you don't like all of the ProjeKcts, or even any of them, you should respect what has been done by the members involved." I DO respect the artists. I would not waste my time reading, posting and responding on this newsletter, when I have a HUGE stack of reading to do and an advisor breathing down my back, if I did not. If I did not like the music nor respect the artist, I would never even have sought this forum out. I do not subscribe or post to the Mariah Carey or Christina Aguillera newsletter, or even know if such forums exist, or even care. I would not waste my time seeking out this forum just to say KING CRIMSON SUCKS! I assume implicitly that anyone reading or posting to this newsletter shares my enthusiasm in one way or another, even if we differ in opinion. Furthermore, I do not think that respect for the artists deprives us of our right to give constructive criticism of their work. Why bother with this forum if all we do is bow down and worship what they do? How can they strive to be better artists if we just worship them blindly? As for the 4 CDs of "inspiration, wonder, and amazement," this is the very point that I dispute; not absolutely, but in degree. Also, I argue that the "pushed bounds" occur within certain parameters; the parameters themselves have not been changed. 8. "I, for one, an delighted with this flood of improvised material and am still trying to wrap my mind around it all. Seriously, the improvs were my favorite bits from of the LTiA band and my fave elements of the ongoing flood of CC material." You seem to imply that I dislike improvisational music. On the contrary, I enjoy it immensely. "An unfortunate side-effect of most arrangements is to ensure that accidents don't happen. The beauty of collective improvisations is that accidents will happen." Behold, I do read the liner notes after all! My original post was improvised on the spot. It included an original premise, then listening to the music I was criticizing in mid-composition, self-questioning and, incidentally, some praise of the ProjeKcts that seemed to be overlooked. It also included some accidents, such as vague statements that were misconstrued. Hence I have resorted to an arrangement to clearly state my point, while listening to the other posters to this forum Phew. Now on to the hard part: restating my case. As stated before, the point of the ProjeKcts was to help the artists better realize what King Crimson could be under its current incarnation, to try and quote the company lingo. My intent is to evaluate whether the band has achieved this goal (which we won't ultimately know until the new CD is released). My point is that yes, the music is good, and it has changed form, but does this mean that they have realized their full potential as a band? My input is this: the change represents more of an involution of their music than an evolution. I have listened to the work of all the current KC artists (except Pat) in various projects outside of KC, and they all are capable of playing in a variety of styles and moods. Yet many of these styles and moods are conspicuously absent from the ProjeKcts. For example, Bruford's work in Earthworks, BLUE, and If Summer Had its Ghosts, has very little analogue on the ProjeKcts. Why is there nothing reminiscent of "Silent Pool" or "Palace of Pearls on a Blade of Grass" even remotely recognizable on the ProjeKcts? Not even a whiff. Personally, if Bruford feels like it is time to leave KC, I support him in his decision. I find a greater degree of creativity in his music outside of KC than in his recent works within it. Just like his decision to leave Yes, perhaps he has reached his limit with Mr. Fripp. The mood and tone on the ProjeKcts shows very little deviation from angst-filled, searing, soaring guitar lines overlying various hard-hitting rhythmic devices. I know that all of the artists are capable of doing other things. Yes the music is "complicated, uncompromising, and challenging," but it is so within the same relatively unchanged parameters. The further complication of an existing system is a classic symptom of involution. So I ask, to what extent have these artists realized their combined potential? To what extent has our perceptions of what King Crimson is or should be, restricted the ability of the band to fully realize their potential? To what degree is the band simply playing to the expectations of its audience (and to what degree do we the audience thus limit the artists' creative expression)? They must sell to us; that is the economic reality of life, but to what degree have we let them down by being blind and slavish worshipping drones, and not helping them push themselves further by being brutally honest about their work? All they hear us say in this forum is, "That was really good guys. Great Show." More virtuosity please. More angst-filled thrashing and banging about, please. More of the same, please, but more complicated. Involutionary. I would like to thank anyone that has taken the time to read the entirety of this lengthy post attentively, and am eager to hear any feedback that this post will hopefully generate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:29:16 +0100 From: "Vab" Subject: Go on fellows! Discordant what? Life is more complex than heartbeat, life is a projeKct... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:53:35 CET From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Guitar synth Hi there! Not so long ago I realised that probably most of what I thought was keyboards on Crimson records, in fact is guitar synth. As I anyway had planned to buy a multi effect unit to my guitar, I have now broadened my horizons to span the possibility of purchasing a guitar synth if it's worth the money in excess. I've so far got some info on the Korg AX1000G and AX1G multi effect units, plus someone recommended Zoom GFX707. They cost approximately, correspondingly, respectively $360, $180 and #100 (note #). I've understood that Rolands synths cost somewhere around $800. However, I'm don't know very much about these thinds, and what to look for when checking a guitar synth. What guitar synths does Fripp (and Belew, Trey??) use, and what guitar synths are most worth their price? Or should I be satisfied with an "ordinary" multi effect unit? I have just decided to start a band with a guy, and we'll start by rehearsing Lark's Tongues in Aspic (II) and Cinema Show, and am now firmly convinced that miracles DO happen, so go out and look for them! So, I'll need a few weird sounds, since I play prog. Please reply to this letter privately, unless it may be relevant to other ET readers. /Macahan ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #634 ********************************