Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #633 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 633 Saturday, 5 February 2000 Today's Topics: Looking for Crimson Laserdiscs Tony Levin on Ozzy tribute album Negative Psychological Impact of KC and Deja Vrooom Measuring odd-times, ad nauseum Re:Is the music too discordant? RE: KC and Children Crimso audio in "Buffalo '66" R.Fripp in Russian Crimson related news RE Negative aspects of KC Re: discourse E-circles and digital trees Free Music Help me do my homework! Trey's Latest - Reviewed Tony Levin on upcoming Ozzy Osbourne tribute Re: Problems with "Deja Vrooom" on Apple G4? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:40:30 -0500 From: Dave Oliver Subject: Looking for Crimson Laserdiscs Greetings fellow Frippinoids and Crimheads (uh, and Sylvianaddicts?) I am looking for the fripp|sylvian and/or King Crimson concerts on Laserdisc. Prefer used, since it's cheaper, but will consider any info if the price isn't too high. Please contact privately (I know better than to clutter up ET with talk of commerce ;) kabong at interlog dot com And put in a relevant subject header, please! Thanks DaveO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 22:49:50 +0300 From: Erik DePoy Subject: Tony Levin on Ozzy tribute album Tony Levin will appear on an Ozzy Osbourne tribute album to be released later this year produced by Bob Kulick. He plays on the song "Crazy Train", and here is the lineup for that particular track, taken from an announcement on The Musiczone: Vocals: Dee Snider (Twisted Sister) Guitar: Doug Aldrich (Burning Rain) Bass: Tony Levin (Seal/King Crimson) Drums: Jason Bonham (Bonham) Erik DePoy Lyubertsy, Russia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:12:36 +1000 From: "Eddie Trimarchi" Subject: Negative Psychological Impact of KC and Deja Vrooom I don't think that KC music is getting darker. When I first heard the Red album, I felt it was the darkest music I had every heard. And yet I loved the music, partly for it's complexity, and partly because of this 'new' feeling It had evoked in me. The music was unique, distinctive and deliberate. Everything I love about KC to this day, and most other music I have adopted into my life. KC present a new experience with every album and that's what life is all about. How you deal with it personally is another matter entirely and unique to you. If you feel threatened by it then stop listening, but don't try and stop it to save the world from some mis-perceived threat or you will have a war on your hands :) Placing my soapbox back in the cupboard for another few years..., Has anyone else has a problem with Deja Vroom when trying to select different band members for 'Schizoid Man'? I get the same version regardless of which era I choose for any of the members. Regards Eddie Trimarchi ~~~~~~~~~~~ eddiet at fan dot net dot au http://www.fan.net.au/~eddiet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 17:34:36 -0500 From: "Dan B." Subject: Measuring odd-times, ad nauseum In last week's thrilling episode of E-T, Jordan said: "We must be having a misunderstanding here. It doesn't matter how many notes are in, say, in a bar of 7/8, it could be silence, that bar is a specific length of time." Big Picture Time (not trying to sound esoteric or cosmic--just expansive): That "specific length of time" you speak of is just an approximation: an agreed upon length designation that has come to be accepted as a 'foundation' (like the 4/4 meter that "Westerners" 'feel' as their main musical measuring yardstick: developed from the pre & Baroque period, and easily 'felt' in it's movement, thus becoming the 'accepted' designation). Even handclaps vary with who's doing the handclapping. But most can (& did) agree upon an accepted 'standard' handclap--derived from our heartbeat--this is where 4/4 originated from. Time is largely an 'abstract' concept. There is no "specific" or completely accurate way to denote it's passing through space--let alone an exact way to measure musical spaces or lengths of musical measures. This has become a huge misconception! The only exact way to measure musical space is on music generated by a sequencer or other computer-based music generation system because these units subdivide musical notes (and the spaces between them) completely based upon mathematical formula for numerical subdivision. When a person is in control of the music emanating, then all measuring becomes inexact and just approximation (thank god!): it is not too hard to realize that a person will space notes in slightly different spacing (even when he or she doesn't want to or think they are doing it)--say a millisecond (or whatever you want to use to measure it) after the last note or chosen rest, or a slightly shorter or longer gap between the previous notes--this is why music played by a human 'breathes'. A good analogy is a drummer versus a drum machine: a drum machine's note subdivisions are based on math formula division and are exact and unchanging in their programmed note and time designations--no matter which time signatures are selected, the subdivisions will always remain equal to their divisional denominator; while a drummer (or really any musician) can expand or contract his/her 'pocket' and time with subtle notes that can shift closer or further away from the meter (also with "ghost" notes): making the rhythm have more flow and making it dance and ebb and weave and breathe. Now, if a person's note lengths & spaces vary over the course of the music's time, then of course, measures (the groupings of such notes) will also expand and contract through their duration. A 'measure' can never ever be exactly measured, unless it is a sequenced measure, and then the appropriate musical subdivisions (quarter notes, eighth notes, sixteenth notes, 32nd, 64th) will be called into play. Human or 'organic' music is ever-changing minutely in its form, structure, context and duration. This notion is readily apparent in non-Western music traditions (and I hope it catches on here in the west eventually!): i.e., do you really think it would be possible to exactly determine the length of musical measures or time-signatures in Indian Classical Ragas where the 'time' (often) falls between the gaps designated by Western music theory & rules of musical notation? This is why this tradition is an oral (non-written one): it would be impossible to notate a Raga on a piece of staff paper! Notation and written musical measuring can only be a guidepost or starting point to the musician: a lot more 'material' and processing of that information is necessary to organize groupings of tones into 'music'. Death to the lifeless, sequenced midis! Glory to the creative, breathing, heartfelt & soulful musician (artist)! Whew! -- "Existence is beyond the power of words. To define terms may be used, but none of them are absolute." -- Lao-Tzu "There are no wrong notes, only wrong resolutions." -- Ray Gomez ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:34:05 -0600 From: Todd F Harrison Subject: Re:Is the music too discordant? I beg the participants' pardons if this is redundant; I am joining the process for the first time, and may be making or seconding points that have been made previously. I find this to be an intriguing question. If selling music to the so-called unconverted were the primary impetus of the ProjeKct exercises, I believe the cds and performances might have contained conventionally memorable, and catchy (possibly simplistic) melodies, might have had vocals, lyrics and so forth. Instead, we got ferocious and searching instrumental improvisation, which I found when experienced live (Fripp/Gunn/Belew in Chicago, first night) to be challenging and fearless, almost the exact opposite of what I would imagine would constitute commercially saleable music. If the idea is that the ProjeKcts are trying to appeal to the fans that KC already has ("preaching to the choir"), brother Fripp has been humorously eloquent about the lack of major financial reward at this level of activity. Secondly, what exactly does discordant mean in this context? One definition of the word is inharmonious, and it certainly contains harmony. I would propose the words difficult, uncompromising or challenging as alternatives. I recognize that these words propose different views/judgments/attitudes than the word discordant, but I bring them forward for consideration of those differences. The writer is courageous to report similar experiences with Fela and Phil Glass, about whose work he later reconsidered. What the recent output reminds me of most in terms of intensity, commitment, courage and spirit, not to mention tonality, is late Coltrane (Live in Seattle, Live in Japan, etc.). Finally, I find all of the ProjeKct material I have heard so far (five cds and one concert) to be interesting and extremely enjoyable, and I want to hear more of it. Just wanted to weigh in. Thank you all for letting me join the fray. The question is a provocative inquiry. TH/Chicago. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:49:41 -0500 From: "Fred Coulter" Subject: RE: KC and Children > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:03:33 -0600 > From: "Fenkner, Mark" > Subject: Negative Physiological Impact of New King Crimson? > What is the P > > Over the past few years King Crimson has become much more > dissonant and > atonal. [...] I recently got a DVD player and immediately ran out and purchased the KC DVD. I've played it at home and discovered that my daughters (ages 6 and 3) really enjoy the music. They also enjoy the Spice Girls so I'm not recommending their taste to others. The point is that being "abrasive, dark, even negative" and "unpleasant and lacking any appreciable qualities" has not turned off small children. Nor has it had "a negative physiological impact on them." My six year old is small for her age (so am I), active in gymnastics, and read Dickens's Christmas Carol over the Christmas holiday. My three year old is large for her age, plays very rough (bruises most nights), and is learning to read. On the other hand, I grew up listening to Stockhausen repeated when I was growing up (my father is a pianist and played a lot of contemporary classical music) may have affected my children. One question I do have is, if you don't like the music, why do you continue to buy it? When I find a group I don't like, I don't buy any more albums (unless they're friends and I have to). Fredrik V. Coulter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:44:28 +0000 From: nitrous Subject: Crimso audio in "Buffalo '66" While clicking the remote I happened upon a plump blonde Christina Ricci tap dancing on the lane of a bowling alley to KC's Moonchild! For at least a full 2 minutes! In the film entitled Buffalo '66 (1998). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:03:37 +0200 From: "pechkins@crosswinds" Subject: R.Fripp in Russian Being fascinated and inspired by KC's music for almost 10 years already (and I am not so old), I was no less, if not more, fascinated and inspired by Fripp's writings. They have influenced my own music and lifestyle much more than you could expect; but it is well known feature of Russian rock-music, that even the most lightweight songs of T-Rex Russian rockers see through the prism of Dostoevsky, and they tend to find deep secret meaning, where "flies and flees have died out, not to speak of meanings". Well, anyhow, Fripp's words I have taken as guidelines for playing and living, mostly because they provided most acceptable answers to the questions I felt I am ought to ask myself, my musicians and everybody listening. So I have decided to put my translations onto the Web. My site is fairly popular, I think; these words placed there could do a lot of what they were written for. The question I want to ask is: how legal is that action from the usual copyright point of view, and from the point of view of the principles of DGM? The second question is: where can I find any more writings? I suspect that there exists in the Net something besides "Road to Graceland", "Redemption" and diaries (which I haven't yet come to decision whether to translate and publish them or not). I mean, teachings must teach, aren't they? Those who wish to check out the quality (qualities) of the translations, are welcome to http://www.pechkin.spb.ru/x/music/fripp. Sorry for clumsy English. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:14:38 -0500 From: Gary Davis Subject: Crimson related news Hi, folks: The latest Artist Shop newsletter is out and you'll find it in its entirety at . Here are some excerpts of interest to Crimson fans. As usual, Voiceprint is keeping quite busy with new and forthcoming releases. On Voiceprint's schedule for forthcoming releases is the following: Michael Giles, Jamie Muir, David Cunningham/Ghost Dance - King Crimson founder member Michael Giles and subsequent Crimson drummer/percussionist Jamie Muir combine with producer David Cunningham to create an album which can be variously described as ethnic heavy metal or village thrash. The music was recorded for Ken McMullen's 1983 film Ghost Dance, shown on Channel 4 and starring Robbie Coltrane. The album has many layers, tribal ethnic, experimental, and new age. Surreal overtones all surface and submerge, melting and mixing in a three dimensional experience. Apparently this is a reissue. It sort of surprised me when it was on Voiceprint's list of forthcoming releases as I wasn't really aware that it had been unavailable. Newly released on our Discipline page is Steve Hancoff/Duke Ellington for Solo Guitar - Stunning solo guitar renditions of 16 Duke Ellington classics. "Steve Hancoff proves there is no limit to what can be done with an acoustic guitar in the hands of a master" Jersey Jazz. Released as part of the Duke Ellington centenary, this beautifully recorded CD comes complete with an information packed 24 page booklet, with detailed history of all the pieces. "Exceptional technique and arrangements" Washington Post Also on our Discipline page is the list of concert dates for the Trey Gunn Band. These dates have already been published in ET, so I won't repeat them again. But if any of you missed it, you'll find the dates at the URL above. There are a few interesting tidbits in our import catalog. Let's start with forthcoming import releases which you'll find at : ENO, BRIAN & PETER SCHWALM-MUSIC FOR OMMYOJI (2CD)J Japanese release from ambient pioneer comes with 3d hologram jacket limited to 50,000 copies. PETER LOCKETT & NETWORK OF SPARKS with BILL BRUFORD-ONE New release featuring King Crimson percussionist. SINFIELD,PETE-STILL Japanese reissue of the former King Crimson member's solo debut, originally released on the Manticore label in 1973. DigDigitally remastered using K2 technology. And now for those imports which have recently been released which you'll find at : KING CRIMSON-IN THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON... 24 bit digitally remastered Japanese reissue of the legendary British prog rock group's 1969 debut album on a gold CD & in a miniaturized gatefold LP sleeve limited to the initial pressing only. 'In The Court Of The Crimson King' contains five tracks, including the classics 'Court Of The Crimson King' & '21st Century Schizoid Man'. WETTON,JOHN-CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE + 2 Reissue of the King Crimson/ UK bassist/ vocalist's 1980 solo debut, cut prior to forming Asia. Includes guest appearances from Jethro Tull's Martin Barre, Roxy Music's Phil Manzanera and Bad Company's Simon Kirke. The Japanese edition contains all 10 recordings from the U.S. release, plus two bonus tracks 'Every Inch of the Way' and 'Out of the Blue'. Of course many people will want to know what the difference is between this Japanese remastered Court of the Crimson King and the recently released Fripp remaster that came out in the US and Europe. First and foremost, this is not a separate remastering job. It is, in fact, the Fripp remaster. The only difference is that it comes on a gold CD. I believe the packaging is identical to the initial European/US releases with the exception of including an obi strip and a booklet in Japanese. There may be some who's major interest would be the mini-LP sleeve since the US and European releases have since converted to gem box packaging. But if that's the only attraction, I still have plenty of the original packaging left and I'm sure there are some other vendors who do as well. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 07:51:04 PST From: "Andrew Thiermann" Subject: RE Negative aspects of KC I would just like to comment on the messages that I have been reading about the new ProjeKcts Box set. About the many comments stating how the music is either too dischord or does not have a "true" KC feel to it. What these people do not understand, possibly because they have not read the insides of the CD sleeves, is that the ProjeKcts are just that, projects to see where the next step in KC is. Robert Fripp says himself that in the past when KC has reached the end of a phase the tradition was to break up the group, possible to reform at another time. He then goes onto say that rather than do that, this time they would get together in smaller groups and "experiment" with new ideas. With this in mind one can see that the final product of the ProjeKcts is not necessarily the final product of what KC will become, or has become. This is furthered by the fact that the projeKcts were done in an Improvisational fashion, thus mixing up the end result even more. I feel that we should not critique the ProjeKcts as one would a KC album. We should commend them for what they have done, given us 4 more CDs of inspiration, of wonder and amazement and of music that is pushing the bounds of what has been defined by the masses. These masses not only being the general publics but also the mass that is the KC fan base. Each of us has an opinion about what KC is/was/ or should be, however even if you don't like all of the ProjeKcts, or even any of them, you should respect what has been done by the members involved. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:56:42 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathan Subject: Re: discourse On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, wrote: > > I just wanted to make a few comments that I have been mulling for some > time, and given some of the comments just recently made, I feel its time > to join the discussion. After listening to the ProjecKt Box set, I, > too, feel that KC may be becoming "too discordant." Not that discord is > a negative quality (I never would of listened in the first place if I > thought that was true), but rather that it is uninspired discord. Can > it be that King Crimson has simply become a product? I, for one, an delighted with this flood of improvised material and am still trying to wrap my mind around it all. Seriously, the improvs were my favorite bits from of the LTiA band and my fave elements of the ongoing flood of CC material. I feel that renewed tolerance (and sometimes even enthusiasm) for improvisation was one of the best aspects of the music scene during the 90's (e.g., Phish and other "jam bands"). Between the Collectors Club, the projeKcts, and the wealth of music legally available via trades (from the likes of Phish), my mailbox runneth over. My new motto is: It's always Christmas if you're me! Yours, Jonathan Krall ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 02:02:57 +0300 From: "Alexandre Vinogradsky" Subject: E-circles and digital trees "Jorge Landa" wrote: >2. I think than many of us are interesed on to find some Krimson >tapes, bootlegs and some other rarities, but most of these things are >hard to find in some places, so I belive than we can share what we >have find. Maybe you've heard about a site called "e-circles", there >you can upload and download freely. This could be an interesting >option to get innaccesible Krimson Material. Another suggestion is for people to set up a "digital tree," the modern version of the old "tape tree", by which rare live recordings were circulated among fans in a structured format (the first person sends copies to two people, who then send copies to two people each, and so on). I'd be willing to participate in such an arrangement, and even help set one up - I don't know, however, if I have time to organize and administer one. Later, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:56:59 -0500 From: John dot F dot Nadelin at am dot pnu dot com Subject: Free Music This may be of interest to some ET readers. My band (Difference Engine) has just completed a web sight with MP3 files of recently completed songs. Two of these are Crimson tunes (Red and VROOOM). We aren't selling the music because we didn't want to deal with royalty payments to the VHRL and others for the songs. Originally we were just going to make copies for family and friends. But then we thought, why not put it on the web so people can download it. The web address is: http://difference-engine.tripod.com/ Here is a list of songs on the site: Good Bye Pork-Pie Hat (Charles Mingus) VROOOM (King Crimson) Common Ground (Mike Stern) Dance of the Maya (John McLaughlin) Way of the Pilgrim (Michael Walden) Red (Robert Fripp) Devotion (John McLaughlin) Resolution (John McLaughlin) There is a production notes page where I describe the equipment we used to record and a song notes page where I make comments on the recording of each song. So, is it any good? Well, I think so. I have checked out some stuff on Elephant Tape and I think this compares well. I think our guitarist did a great job of sounding like Fripp on Red. My picks: I actually like Dance of the Maya and Devotion the most. Maybe this is because there aren't many keyboards on the Crimson tunes and I am the keyboard player. Common Ground is a nice ballad and has really grown on me. Currently, we're working on all original material. I would appreciate feedback from people about our music. Please sign the guestbook or e-mail me if you would like to comment. A note on ET from someone about the Crimson tunes would also be nice. Best regards, John Nadelin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:04:47 -0500 (EST) From: Martin Kennedy Subject: Help me do my homework! Hello all. I'm writing a research paper on symmetry (palindromic, Fibonacci, etc.) in 20th century music for my music history class and want to include something from the rock genre. Using Berg and Bartok as my classical music examples, but of course using Crimson for the rock genre sprang to mind. Can anyone help me think of a particularly good example (song or complete album) that fits into my symmetry theme? Martin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:37:34 -0500 (EST) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Trey's Latest - Reviewed Review: The Joy of Molybdenum by The Trey Gunn Band With The Joy of Molybdenum, Trey Gunn expands his sonic palette while retaining the odd-meter funkiness of his most previous release, The Third Star. While both Third Star and the earlier 1000 Years featured Gunn's low-end acrobatics (punctuated with upper register tapping and buzzing and propelled by percussionist Bob Muller's first-meets-third-world drumming) much of Molybdenum pulls the ear to the mid range to hear new band member Tony Geballe's acoustic and electric guitar work. The result is an album that sounds fuller, less like a "solo album"--reinforcing that this album is not by Trey Gunn, but "The Trey Gunn Band." In some ways this makes the distinctiveness of the music subtler. On Third Star the bony skeleton of "bass" and drum was rather exposed, with very little covering the inventive interplay that made the music so exciting. On the new album, there's more skin. That skin sizzles occasionally, as in Geballe's acoustic riff that rides atop the first and last parts of track 6, "Sozzle." Beneath it, Gunn's touch guitar burps out a bass line. In the distance, someone's guitar moans in David Torn-like agony. Muller shakes and beats. At other times the skin glistens, as melody maker in the mystical "Brief Encounter"-a slow, chanting piece that evokes a desert mirage, and might remind King Crimson fans of a decelerated "Talking Drum." "Tehlikeli Madde," the album's closer, traverses these extremes. The disc opens with the title track. Muller begins hammering out a rather complex 4/4, but, as you might expect, that is not quite complex enough for this band. After the guitars crunch in with the main, rocking theme, things are mixed up rather rapidly--an extra two beats here, a couple of measures of 5 there. What makes this enjoyable for the person unconcerned or unimpressed with odd time signatures is that, somehow, Gunn is able to make these changes sound natural, allowing the listener the pleasure of losing oneself in the music without always being able to recall at what point one got lost. The same can be said of much of the music on this disc, which presents the listener with audible evidence of Gunn's further development. When 1000 Years and the more adventurous Third Star were released, some folks pinned Gunn as a one-man electrified League of Crafty Guitarists (no mean feat!). While the sound that likely inspired that appellation is present on this album (for example, on the "redux" version of "Hard Winds"--the original released on Raw Power--and the weaker track, "Rune Song," with its peculiar, stately trilling in the melody line), there is such a variety of original noises, rhythms, and textures that reducing this music to influences is impossible. Alongside the funky rock are stretches of pushing and pulling atmospheric rhythms. (If you require some comparison to other artists, think of a more agile Polytown.) All of the compositions (most of them credited to all three band members) are instrumentals, and together conspire to take the listener, eyes closed, to far off worlds of jungles, deserts, highways, spaceways, cityscapes, and whatever other locales one has lurking in the imagination. For those who have liked Gunn's music in the past, they will no doubt like his newest. For those who have thought his work too spare, they will appreciate the richer instrumentation here. And for those who have yet to hear the work of this extraordinarily talented musician, The Joy of Molybdenum is a fine place to start. Justin Weinberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:43:20 -0500 From: "Mark D. White" Subject: Tony Levin on upcoming Ozzy Osbourne tribute This came over the Black Sabbath mailing list - a tracklisting for an upcoming Ozzy Osbourne tribute, with one track in particular that may be of interest to Crimheads: 9. "Crazy Train" Vocal: Dee Snider (Twisted Sister) Guitar: Doug Aldrich (Burning Rain) Bass: Tony Levin (Seal/King Crimson) Drums: Jason Bonham (Bonham) Later, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 01:36:47 -0600 (CST) From: david craig Subject: Re: Problems with "Deja Vrooom" on Apple G4? Brian- Ah, the hazards of early adoption :-) There have indeed been some problems with DVD playback on the G4's [and in general] , tracked rather carefully at and . I'd explore both rather carefully. Apple has just released some software updates that, by most accounts, appears to resolve most folks DVD playback problems. These include the Mac OS 9 Audio Update 1.2, and the Apple DVD Software Update 2.0, . Dunno if the new release of QuickTime (4.1) is relevant to this particular problem, though I wouldn't think so. Hope this helps! David ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #633 ********************************