Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #622 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 622 Saturday, 6 November 1999 Today's Topics: NEWS: Gig Announcement: The Europa String Choir and Tony Geballe 11/16 Re: Drum study If you're looking for Ian McDonald in top form... 3 of a Perfect Pair projekt two Projekcts - drumming Cirkus Live CD? Projekcts - Hidden Tracks Re: UK Concert Classics - "hidden song" Rhythms; comments that cut; opinions; Live Groove; more Monday Nov 8 - Middle East (Down) - Boston Loopers Collective III Selling Projeckts Box Music of Gurdjieff q Questions deception of the thrush p3/p4 deception ProjecKt Audiences (Who am us, anyway?) Frightening Future King get the real picture ! Projekcts Box set Post for next issue ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 14:39:39 -0500 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: NEWS: Gig Announcement: The Europa String Choir and Tony Geballe 11/16 Europa String Choir & Tony Geballe will be performing at the Newport Congregational Church Newport Congregational Church 73 Pelham St Newport RI (Spring St & Pelham) Nov 16th, Doors at 6:00pm Show at 7.00pm Church Phone (Directions etc.) (401) - 849-2238 (Spring St & Pelham) Tickets $15.00 (JubbMar Productions - Justin Brierley) (401) - 846-9262 This is the second installment in the NC5 music series at the church and if the turnout for the CGT last month and the enthusiastic response of the crowd was an indiaction this should be another wonderfull event. The Church is a beautiful old, acoustically great building, designed by artist John Lefarge in short a great venue! For more info on ESC go to: www.europastringchoir.com For more info on Tony Geballe go to: www.parallaxweb.com/tonycore/ Martin Bradburn PS: Just got Live in Japan (Duo- Trio), great show and despite ET comments an artistically (IMHO) produced video. Also just got the new RealDemo from ESC, it rocks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 20:12:18 -0600 From: Jordan Subject: Re: Drum study To Domenico: I agree with a lot of things you said in your post. I was a little confused by your passage on Tony Williams though. Are you saying he basically copied the style of Elvin and Art Blakey? Sorry, I disagree there. He had his influences, and he could play like anyone he wanted to, but he had a whole thing of his very own. His cymbal beat was totally different from those two (the flat 8th notes), and both with Miles (listen to Four + More) and Lifetime he did lots of metric modulation and implying different time changes that was totally revolutionary. That's the only stuff I can directly hear in Bill...even if Bill doesn't sound at all like Tony, he adores his playing and the spirit has definitely been an influence on him. I know Morello and Max were more direct influences on his jazz playing, they're fantastic as well. Also, about Bill totally changing his style between '74 and '81. I really don't think he did...obviously, he had a different sound and was playing different parts in the music, but he was the same player. Here is the thing: Bill is a sympathetic and professional player, and in both situations he did exactly what the situation called for. In the 70s he was the one who filled up the space, in the 80s the music called for him to be laying down a simpler foundation within more complex music (and the stringed instruments) were playing the many notes and polyrhythms. Of course his technique and maturity as a player improved, but otherwise he is the same Bill to me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 00:35:47 -0600 From: Don Hosek Subject: If you're looking for Ian McDonald in top form... The last ET had a disappointed commentary on Ian McDonald's solo CD (which I haven't heard yet other than the two underwhelming tracks on elephant tape) which closed with a recommendation that Ian McDonald fans get the remastered ItCotCK if they want to hear him. I'd suggest, for something quite amazing, to pick up Steve Hackett's Tokyo Tapes double CD set. I can only say, wow. It's not uniformly great, but there's enough top-drawer stuff to make it well worth the $18 or so it costs on amazon.com -dh --- "E-mail is for geeks and pedophiles." -Valmont, in the film Cruel Intentions ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 00:41:56 -0600 From: Don Hosek Subject: 3 of a Perfect Pair My band has decided to tackle this. A couple notes: The tab on the ET pages is far from accurate. The midi, on the other hand, as near as I can tell is correct (is this based on the Guitar mag transcription?). I've taken the midi & imported it into my notation software and am working out the guitar part from notation (proof that I'm not a normal guitar player... I've made more progress working from the notation than the tab, even when the two match. Actually the defining proof that I'm not a normal guitar player is that I'm really a bass player). Would anyone be interested in a corrected tab for this song? Also, out of curiosity, which of the two guitar lines in the midi is Adrian and which is Robert? My first guess is that the bottom of the two lines is Fripp based on the frequent octave jumps, but I've also noticed that the bottom line appears to be (more or less) the line that Adrian plays when he's doing it solo. Thusfar (after a short days' practice) I can play the bottom line of the Cm-Fm-Gm section at about 1/4 speed (if that fast), but I have noticed that it is easier than I would have initially thought to sing and play this. It's especially neat to look down and see my fingers flying just like Ade's (well except for the much slower pace) as I play the guitar part. -dh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:57:00 -0500 From: Gonzalo Enguita Subject: projekt two Un disco etereo, denso, que resume las variadas lecturas de la evolucion de King Crimson Belew, Gunn, con una tension continuada y momentos excepcionales en los interludios (loops, soundscapes, frippertronics, no importa su denominacion), y la sorpresa de la buena forma que mantiene Adrian a la bateria. Esperamos conseguir pronto en Espana la caja con los cuatro Projekts, una vez oido este disco y los anticipos del Cirkus. Esto sigue siendo King Crimson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:37:30 -0300 From: "SYNCHRO, RONALD VOGEL" Subject: Projekcts - drumming Hi all After going through all Projekct BOX and CC # 7 i can say IMHO: - There is nothing like acoustic drums - Adrian Belew is not a drummer - P2 is the weakest of them all (tough i liked it) mainly because of Adrian drumming - CC # 7 has almost 74 minutes while the P4 volume in the box does not. Why? - CC # 7 is better than the box compilation - P3 is very good . Pat mixes are very interesting. Very good parts of the produced material could easily used with a new studio album and also a live repertoire. I only hope there is no more "traps and buttons". Please go back to acosutic drums. Ronald Miklos Vogel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:26:09 -0800 From: Jeff Kamil Subject: Cirkus Live CD? Hello, I am inquiring as to how much, if any of the recently released "Cirkus" (live) CD has been previously released on other "official" Crimson CD's. Thanks in advance for your help Jeff ************************************** Jeff Kamil/Harry the Hat Productions http://www.harryhat.com ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:09:15 -0300 From: "SYNCHRO, RONALD VOGEL" Subject: Projekcts - Hidden Tracks Hi all Besides P2 there is also another hidden track on P3. At the end of the last track there is a blank for about 2 minutes and then a final coda of P3. Let's ask Pat M about it, he's the mixer. Cheers........ Ronald ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 14:47:55 -0500 From: Dave Lane Subject: Re: UK Concert Classics - "hidden song" Michel Champagne" wrote: > Another song performed by UK on the 1978 North American Tour, but missing > from this CD, unfortunately, is "The Sahara of Snow". It's not really "missing", since it was not performed that night. It was performed later on the same tour, but not at the Boston show from which the CD is taken. The Concert Classics CD is missing one tune that was performed that night at the Paradise, "Forever Until Sunday", also a future feature of the Bruford repertoire. I taped it from the radio that night while the concert was taking place, being too young to get into a place that served alcoholic beverages at the time. :-( I put up a mid-fi MP3 of it on my web page: http://members.tripod.com/~Chickyraptor ...for educational purposes. It's too bad that Renaissance Records had to pull CC Vol 4. I wonder if it or any other live UK material will ever get released again? I notice that Renaissance has a Wetton album in their catalog. I finally managed to see UK when they appeared again in Boston at the Orpheum in October of '78. That show was bootlegged as "Chasing Rainbows", among other names. If anyone has a recording of that show, I'd sure like to hear it. --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 13:08:54 -0800 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: Rhythms; comments that cut; opinions; Live Groove; more >King Crimson is just about rhythms. Don't think it' *all* about rhythms - I think melody and harmony have had quite a bit to do with it. But anyway . . . >It always has been. Brief history : First, there was Michael Giles, > powerful and precise, as Carl Palmer. Giles and Palmer are at two opposite ends of the spectrum as far as I can see. >Then, McCullough, just precise but without personnality. I must stop right here - these are the kinds of comments that cut so incredibly deeply, that they can't even really be addressed directly or constructively. >I love you all. All of us? Really? >I feel compelled to write on the subject of OPINIONS. Many of the >thoughts expressed in this newsletter are mired in the- my musician hero >can beat up your musician hero. Or to mention my favorite new strain, >your musician hero did not evolve, he doesn't fit in with the future. This bothers me too MCzar. >Well, open the pod door Hal. In my future many people will not be allowed >to use "IMO," instead they will be required to use >"IMSMO"= In My Small Minded Opinion. But not enough to call anyone small-minded. >By the way, the Projeckts box set is fantastic (with the Projeckt 2, Live > Groove being the only weak leak Interesting, I find it to be a very powerful stream (don't be pissed). >It's interesting to note that Fripp and Gunn are both in all of the >ProjeKct groups, whilst Bruford is only in one. I would be very interested >to hear what other unexplored ProjeKcts might sound like, such as >Levin/Belew/Bruford, Levin/Gunn/Mastelotto or even Bruford/Mastelotto. I agree that these would be very interesting to hear - apparently the guys weren't as interested in those possibilities as we are. Does B.L.U.E. count as a ProjeKCt? ProjeKCt B maybe. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:15:06 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Monday Nov 8 - Middle East (Down) - Boston Loopers Collective III Hello - Here's a note for ProjeKct fans in the BOSTON area. _____ DATE: Monday November 8 (8-11pm) LOCATION: At the Middle East Downstairs (Central Square, Cambridge) FEATURE: The Boston Loopers Collective III, with: * Electric Percussion: T.G. Noyes, Michael Bloom and Frank Coleman * Bass: Micorvard * Keyboards: Jere Fason * Unguitar: David Kirkdorffer Visuals from Dr. T _____ The Boston Loopers Collective is an all-improvised setting for musicians who employ various types of looping technology in their music. Loop based music essentially involves the repetition of audio samples, or loops. From that basic premise looping moves off in numerous directions, encompassing a wide range of techniques for building, manipulating, and using loops. The technique crosses many musical boundaries and appears in a wide range of musical styles and genres (for information on Looping: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html ) _____ Previous "Collectives" have featured Daniel Orlansky on didgeridoo, Jonathan LaMaster on violin and James Coleman on Theremin. This Collective will be the first to feature electronic percussion. Also, I'm thrilled and delighted to have two members from of the trippy Club D'ELF on the team this time around. _____ The evening will be broken into two or three segments. Expect to hear trippy, spacey and rhythmic groove music. As always, I invite you to bring your consciousness however you will. David Kirkdorffer UNDO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:54:13 -0600 From: Don Lawrence Subject: Selling Projeckts Box I bought it, but I only like perhaps 25% of it enough to listen to very much. Sorry I just like a bit more structure and perhaps a bit less improvisation. Looking forward to the new KC being recorded over there in Nashville. Selling to buy the Deception of the Thrush. Projeckts' Box $35USD + shipping Please respond by private email Don ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 15:08:28 -0700 From: "Elaine C. Erb" Subject: Music of Gurdjieff Christian Skina asks about the music of Gurdjieff. I haven't encountered the full CD but yesterday I played a piece off of Mick Brown's new compilation, Music for the Spiritual Tourist. It features "Journey to Inaccessible Places" by DeHartmann and Gurdjieff. This is credited from a release by Celestial Harmonies, Reading of a Sacred Book: The Complete Piano Music of Georges Gurdjieff and Thomas DeHartmann. Elaine C. Erb KGNU Music Director PO Box 885 Boulder, CO 80306, USA 303-449-4885 music at kgnu dot org www.kgnu.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:15:04 -0000 From: Martin Temperton Subject: q There is a 4 star review of ITCOTCK in Dec Q magazine complete with woolly pic of R Fripp Martin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:51:45 -0300 (CDT) From: ARAYA VARGAS JAIME ANDRES Subject: Questions Hi! 1-What relation (intelectually) exists between KIng Crimson (or Robert Fripp) and beatnick generation (some example that I refer: the title of songs like Neal and Jack and Me, Sartori in Tanger, The sheltering sky, etc.) 2-When is the Fripp's birthday? Thank you so much for your site. Thank you for your answers. Sorry for my english. Jaime Araya V. Santiago de Chile 5/11/1999 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 10:39:51 PST From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: deception of the thrush hello my question is simple (i hope): i just purchased the projekcts box set and i am wondering exactly which tracks were used on The deception of the thrush CD. i realize from the back of the case that each fractal is represented on this CD and i am wondering which tracks Fripp and Co. felt were the best to represent the projekcts in a 1 cd format. so if you know the answer e-mail me personally. Thanks Alfred (ADodson19 at hotmail dot com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 12:17:43 PST From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: p3/p4 deception hello again i have another question : on the Deception of the Thrush CD the song "Deception of the Thrush" is noted as being an edit of performances by P3 and P4 yet i don't see a Deception of the thrush on the P3 disc within the box. so what's going on here? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 18:55:00 -0500 From: Travis Flower Subject: ProjecKt Audiences (Who am us, anyway?) Ever look around at a big family gathering, say for example at a big holiday dinner, and smile to yourself with embarrassment but begrudging affection at these wierdos seated around the table? Ya gotta love 'em, because they are, after all, your family. I feel much the same way listening to the "hidden" bonus track after Schizoid Man on the P2 CD. The audience is venomous- there is the distinct possibility that the foolish soul with the camera might not make it out of the theatre without getting gang-probed. I burst into continuous fits of silly laughter listening to the righteous indignation. Just imagine such intellectual discussions about the inviolable rights of the Artist at a Guns 'n' Roses show.... I think that in the final analysis, that track represents a very special sort of victory for both Fripp and his frustrated fans. Fripp's philosophy of the participant audience is vindicated by that recording: the audience has indeed become, in a John Cage sort of way, a real part of the "composition" of the final track of Live Groove. The audience for their part, gains the benefit of being included as part of a bona fide King Crimson improvisation. I wish to god that it was me calling that guy a "flaming indigent cocksucker" on the CD. Beats the hell out of my ticket stubs for a souvenir. On another note, I do take the fact that P3 played a half dozen shows in Austin just six months after I moved away (having lived there for six years) as final proof that, should God exist, he delights in my torture. Oh yeah, and this one time, before a Frippertronics show in NYC last year, I spotted Fripp eavesdropping on my conversation a few rows back in the empty audience seating. I foolishly tried to talk to him, but he fled like a nervous pigeon in the park. I understand in retrospect it wasn't nuthin personal (yes, I know this topic is off limits for the forum, but I'm making a point of closure) and who am I to question Fripp's personal choice of conduct, whether he flee from a friendly fan or a flashbulb? We are in a position to debate Fripp's moives and behavior, however distant they may seem, precisely because he has let us get to know him, in some ways, on a rather personal level in a way that few musicians do. I love my wierdo intellectual demagogue and his wierdo fans (inlcuding me.) -Travis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:19:12 +0100 From: "domenico" Subject: Frightening Future King I decided not to see the Robert Fripp and Trey Gunn diaries anymore. My passion, wich became a need, an organic response, for this band is so big, i may overreact. The fact is, all i saw is : - "hey, i've never played that kind of stuff for 25 years now" - "we are calling it Lark's IV" - "Trey has a new cd coming out" - "there is new guitar interplay between Ade and myself" Guys, what's going on ? Are you going into memorabilia ? I am afraid. KC always go further. But doesn't look back. And, by the way, did you ever think what an excellent show-case the diaries are ? Where the artist can arouse envy, create frustration, even talk about their next album release... In the same idea, our interventions are not as good as well. What they do with our words of compliment, suggestions and grief ? I know ; i don't have the right to say that - also, i never said that they must listen to me - they never will for God sake!, but isn't that what KC is all about ? Will the new KC sound like "Discipline" or "Fracture" ? Of course, i like both of those tunes, but that is done. Now, go to the next step. Even on "Thrak", the album, there were still fragrances from old tunes - the bridge for "Red" on "Vrooom Vrooom"... I think the lethal new pieces KC made were "Thrak" on the VROOOM ep - my brains explodes everytime i hear this one on that very album in that peculiar version - and the "Thrak attak" guts album, wich must have been maybe the first ever Collector's Club release. Wasn't it a response to massive demand of more improv stuff ? I don't think it sold well anyway. But that's the main thing with masterpieces, isn't it ? So, don't blame me. I'm not judging. I express my fears of what some words and definitions might evoke for me and what it might involve. Always, i trust them. But... The fact is : i don't know where they might go. I don't know if where they're going is the right way. I only know that i'm going a little bit of insane. It doesn't matter. Don't think about it. Let it go. Sorry folks. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:57:31 +0100 From: "domenico" Subject: get the real picture ! Last sunday and monday, i was in Paris. Strangely enough, i found, without seeking it, a galery nearby Beaubourg (a little street close to Sebastopol) wich exposed works from PJ Crook. Even if i find a quality in the KC sleeve produced by PJ from now on, i never always quite agree with it. A kind of Magritte pictures who might suit well with ancient albums like ITWOP or Islands, but for the recent releases, i don't know... One faithfull reader might ask if sometimes i find some things attractive in the KC world, for my three last messages were critical. Well, of course, i do. If i didn't care, i would not share my impressions with all of you. I think we must still be aware and critic. For all and everything. I'm not one of those who likes to have the spoon put in the mouth. Returning to PJ... It's quite different seeing them for "real". There is lots of 3D effects in her paintings that are miss in paper reproduction. For examples, bottles, cards, hats wich are coming out from the canevas. Even if it's mysterious in its representation of our world, quite naive, there is a gentle poetry through it. And the impact, through the format, is very different. You should try this. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 05:57:04 PST From: "Clive Lathrope" Subject: Projekcts Box set Just got the box set. There seems to be a silent gap on P2 21stCSM of about 8 minutes and then general crowd disorder recorded. Also on P4 (I think) there's also a silent gap before the final music. Is this correct or am I missing something ? PS. Can recommend the new Traffic remasters with bonus tracks!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:50:19 -0600 From: "Loren Claypool" Subject: Post for next issue In ET issue #621, James Beard wrote - "It's interesting to note that Fripp and Gunn are both in all of theProjeKct groups, whilst Bruford is only in one. I would be very interestedto hear what other unexplored ProjeKcts might sound like, such asLevin/Belew/Bruford, Levin/Gunn/Mastelotto or even Bruford/Mastelotto." I agree and am hopeful that the ProjeKcts will continue. I would love to hear Belew / Bruford / Levin Belew (V-Drums) / Bruford / Mastelotto Levin / Gunn Fripp / Belew / Levin / Gunn Perhaps following the current incarnation of KC the ProjeKcts will indeed continue. I would welcome the music delivery via CC release, download, or compilation CD where different ProjeKcts would contribute a few tracks, thus speeding up the delivery. Loren Claypool ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #622 ********************************