Elephant Talk #621 (as text)

3 November 1999

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:30:32 -0400
From: jbrainin at interactive dot net (Jonathan Brainin)
Subject: NEWS: Europa String Choir US tour, November '99
The Europa String Choir will be touring the Northeast US from
Sunday, November 14 through Saturday, November 20.  They
will be joined by 12 string guitarist Tony Geballe at most gigs.
This is the only visit the Europa String Choir will make to the
US this year.

Don't miss them!

Tour Dates:

*  Sunday, November 14, Pottersville, NJ:
    private performance for NJ Guitar Circle

*  Monday, November 15, NYC, NY:
    8 pm: Arlene Grocery, 95 Stanton Street,

*  Tuesday, November 16:
    Newport, RI, TBA

*  Wednesday, November 17:

*  Thursday, November 18, Brooklyn, NY:
   *with Tony Geballe*
    (call for time): Europa Club,
    98-104 Meserole Ave. (corner of Manhattan Ave.), Brooklyn, NY

*  Friday, November 19, Philadelphia, PA:
   *with Tony Geballe*
    Private performance: University of Pennsylvania, Phila., PA

*  Saturday, November 20, Baltimore, MD:
   *with Tony Geballe*
    8 pm: Orion Sound Studios
    2903 Whittington Ave - Baltimore MD

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 13:51:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam Levin <alevin at DarkAether dot net>
Subject: Dark Aether Productions presents...
Dark Aether Productions presents the following concerts in the Washington
DC/Baltimore area in the next few weeks:

Oct 30th/8PM:   The Dark Aether Project & Iluvatar
                Phantasmagoria - 11319 Elkin Street - Wheaton MD
                $10 admission/All ages
                See http://www.DarkAether.net/

Nov 6th/8:30PM: TapTech III: Featuring Markus Reuter of Europa String Choir
                and others TBA
                Orion Sound Studios - 2903 Whittington Ave - Baltimore MD
                See http://www.progrock.net/shows/showcase for directions
                $5 admission/All ages
                See http://www.DarkAether.net/tt/

Nov 20th/8PM:   Europa String Choir & Tony Geballe
                Orion Sound Studios - 2903 Whittington Ave - Baltimore MD
                See http://www.progrock.net/shows/showcase for directions
                $10 admission/All ages
                See http://www.dscplne.demon.co.uk/

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:39:31 EDT
From: Bknt at aol dot com
Subject: Norbert Fragg Reviewed!
Dear Team,

While zooming through the Wordly Wide (but not necessarily wise) Web, my
Duchampian inattentiveness (which can be an art in itself) snagged two
reviews of Norbert Fragg's newest boxed set, The RejeCKts. The first was
originally published in Melody Faker, that influencial compendium of mangled
metaphors and needful screeds, these comments pertain to the passions of
confirmed Fragg-o-philes, as well as those who find humor in the
tribulations, and caffeine-inspired lucubrations of our sustainfully
frustrated guitarist.

Fragg Unlocks Fat Box of Sodden Socks
by Hillaire Knock-Knock
    The first obligation of the critic is to review the art. The second
obligation of the critic is to review himself. The third obligation of the
critic is to put his head between his legs and

at this point the review was lost in a series of egocentric data strings
similar to those spewed from a pressurized aerosol cheese cannister. We take
you now to Rolling Stoned, a publication of aging hippies trying to "think
young" that was never really that significant, and is now even less important
as decaying Yuppie slime turn to more ludicrous cheesecake-filled aerosol
image-inflaters like Vanity Table and Tina Weena Brown's newest, Gawk. There,
midst the pages expensive thrills and movie stars claiming mystical values
for their latest 90 minute piece of audience-tested R-rated cinematic sewage,
was a review of Fragg's latest!

Nights in White Crimson, Fragg's RejeCKts Snags Distaff Delight
by Ponderous McNott
Echoing the not-too-trendy shadow boxing by updown bands Cool Whip and Showme
Dah Money, passably precious post-prog axe-snacker Norbert Fragg, last heard
from in the shameless one-more-try-at-getting-airplay compilation, the Highly
Annoying, Musically Disruptive, Photo-Snapping, Autograph Leeching,
Heartbreak of Halitosis Afflicted Person's's Guide to Wing Fractious, staged
a series of no-name gatherings of former Fractoids at pretentious, badly
promoted venues for which the music press received little advanced noticed,
no free tickets, and no, I repeat, NO limo ride from the hotel, not even a
paid taxi and NO admission to the green room buffet

at this point the review breaks down in a series of passionate complaints
about how things were so much better in the 1960's when the reviewer shared a
motel room in Dubuque with several adolescent males who would become Stool &
the Wang who were trying to achieve hallucinogenic effects with a banana
skin, a velvet Elvis Presley painting, and a mudshark

THIS JUST IN! Fragg's first diary entry from America, where he is reading
heavy duty modern philosophy and sitting on a chair instead of the floor
because the floor simply won't have him anymore.

    Arriving shoeless and dressed in black at Gnashful International Airport,
I found to my surprise that, in the three months I have been away from the
Land of the Freaks, the Home of the Saved,  most Americans have turned into
large, drooling, bellowing, self-assured, corpulent grocery sacks who
terrorize buffets with portable pressurized cheese-ejaculation devices that
shoot long vibrantly ochre-hued strands when their fingers twitch
involuntarily from consuming too much coffee, called Latte-o-lay, which, as a
musician of the lesser sort, inspires me to read several pages of Fuki
Fancyama's "The Rear End of History" involving, among other things, an
elegant linkage between fingering, which is pointless, and pointing, which is
speechless, quantum physics, which sounds cool but is nearly meaningless if
you don't do the math. And now, answers to the Kvetchbook:

Yes. No. No. I may be venal but I am not a crook. Seet Pinfield.is merely
reviewing himself. No. Possibly. Impossibly. Perhaps. Because I'm da bomb and
you're not!

Bill Kent

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Makowsky <kimsky18 at yahoo dot com>
Subject: Sid Smiths mystery tune and CL Humes bird
Hello --

Having recently finished reading Sid Smiths liner
notes I strongly suspect that the mystery "dubaduba"
tune he raves about is "Cerelean Sea" (I'm not
terrible sure about the spelling) that opens the Upper
Extremities album (Bruford, Levin, David Torn and
Chris Botti).  I saw them play live at the bottom line
in early December of '98 which would have been shortly
after the Project 3 recordings. Even if this is not
the tune in question, the album is great fun.

As to Mr Humes cover art analysis ... perhaps the
"parrot" in questino is merely a deceptive thrush.
Just a thought...



Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:46:33 -0400
From: moses <moses42 at home dot com>
Subject: Scientific Evidence on the Belew/Fripp Debate
Good day (sic),

        I have been reading with great interest the discussion on
whether or not Adrian was as good as Fripp at the guitar.  I figured
there had to be a better method of ascertaining the better player than
mere opinion.  So, here is irrefutable scientific evidence that Ade is
indeed the man.  And so is Bob.

                    ADE                       ROB
                    MADE                    RON
                    MAD                      RAN
                    MAN                      MAN

By the same token, Trey is darn close: TREY - TRAY - RAY - RAN - MAN.

And, Pat is even better: PAT - PAN - MAN.

So there it is.  Proof that the entire current KC lineup is practically

It also makes me realize exactly how far I am.  Got to go practice my



Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:10:38 +0700
From: "Dave Lumenta" <dlumenta at indosat dot net dot id>
Subject: Re: BB with Genesis - on video
Jim Bricker wrote:
Entangled (no BB)

As far as I know, Bill provided delicate glockenspiel on that track, while
Phil was up in front and Tony Banks  playing  a third guitar.
The video was released on laser disc in Japan, but recent availability of it
remains a question.


Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:18:17 PDT
From: "Michel Champagne" <micheljch at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Re: UK Concert Classics - "hidden song"
Dan Kirkendorffer (sp?), I believe, was asking what the "unlisted" 3rd track
on the aforementioned UK live CD was.  That would be "The Only Thing She
Needs" which turned up on the second UK outing, "Danger Money" along with
"Carrying No Cross" and "Caesar's Palace Blues" which are also on the
"Concert Classics" CD.  For those of you who developed at least a passing
dislike for UK after hearing the second album, then hearing "Carrying No
Cross" as performed by the original quartet is akin to breathing life into
an embalmed corpse, IMHO.

Another song performed by UK on the 1978 North American Tour, but missing
from this CD, unfortunately, is "The Sahara of Snow".  This ended up on the
second Bruford release, "One of a Kind", where it sounded rather polite _as
compared to_ how I remember UK playing it.  Although highly dissimilar to
"Asbury Park," I remember the tune having much the same "spirit", if you
will, as the KC improv., probably due in no small part to JW's mostrous bass
rumbling in concert (no pun intended) with Billy B's wonderous work on the
drums.  Which means the audience (at the show I attended, at least) was, for
the most part, simply transfixed by the moment . . . it was pretty strong.
Hard to believe that was 20+ years ago.  Seems like only yesterday.

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:11:40 +0100
From: "Toby van de Peer" <T dot vandePeer at custima dot com>
Subject: Twang you mad dogs twang!
Hi folks,

A couple of thoughts to recent posts about Wetton and Belews styles. Hope I
don't re-iterate other people too much!

1) I don't think that to duplicate John Wetton's bass sound you have to have
a fender precision. I'm sure I've seen a couple of other bass players use
this esoteric and hard to find instrument. I think John's sound comes
through playing VERY hard with his fingers! It's a bit of a cliche to say
it's all in the fingers but with him it's true! On the Nightwatch CD his
signal is a bit(!) driven yes, but his snapping digits are driving the amp
over the top! Must have been an awful lot of young dutch girls he was trying
to impress....

2) Belew. I don't want to do a knee-jerk "Belew is good" reaction post, but
I have some thoughts about this. I think that the guitar approach of THRAK,
where the interlocking guitar sound was not used in preference to RF and AB
simply rocking out, may have led people to overlook Belew. Add Trey Gunn to
this mix, and it becomes a bit of a mush, picking players out of a mix
becoming difficult. On closer listening of course everyone was playing
different and quite important stuff, but I'm sure a lot of people may have
thought in the back of their minds why Belew was there when he was just
'doubling' Fripp compared to his quite obvious contributions from 81-84.

Those that criticise his vocals may feel that in 1981, they sounded really
hip and cool (aka David Byrne, anyone?) and fitted that New York, New Wavey
feeling that I think Fripp was immersed in at the time. However, come 1994,
popular tastes had changed, and Belew may have sounded passe, especially to
british ears (he's hardly grunge or britpop, is he?) Also I think some 70s
KC fans might secretly have wanted a Greg Lake type to sing about flowers
and pixies (I'm only teasing please don't flame me!).

Which brings me back to the music. Belew said that Fripp was heavily
influenced by the Rock sounds of Steve Vai and Vernon Reid, which may
explain the big sound of the Thrak KC. Of course we all know what was going
out of fashion in 1994, so I think KC may have missed the boat on this.
(Mind you, the recent live recordings remind me that this was still
blistering stuff IMHO)

Sorry for using words like 'fashion' and 'passe' with KC, I'm just trying to
be objective. I feel that recent activities are right on the button though.
The results of the projeCKts to me are cutting edge, but perversely, are
really quite trendy without trying to copy anyone (P3 vs Earthling? I know
what Goldie would dig more!). Add to this recent rumour that the
interlocking guitar style is being looked at in a fresh light, and that
Belew was trying to "Play blues, without playing the blues" I really think
we are on the verge of something cool here (plus dig Belew with NIN). I
honestly don't know what P3 + Belew is going to sound like beyond
tantalising glimpses in my mind's ear, caused by only a few comments.
Perhaps that's for the best. As for the singing, well let's see. He's got a
good set of pipes. I think they will work best being integrated with p3
hyper dance music rather than in a couple of ballads tagged on to the other

thoughts? I have muddled a few big points together rather incoherently!

Toby van de Peer
rotwang at dircon dot co dot uk (my home address, if you want to reply privately)
p.s. again, I apologise for using the words 'trendy' and 'KC' in the same
sentence. I'm off to get a new haircut, some GAP jeans and, oh yes, book a
holiday to Ibiza etc etc...

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:31:30 EDT
From: "Michael Feiran" <feiran1 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Exercises
I made an honest effort to find any mention of that Fripp's exercise program
in faq's and elsewhere in ET.No luck.My guitar playing tends to suffer as
scale exercises generally bore me.That Fripp has discussed fingering
exercises in general and I would be very interested to find out if they are
available to the general public.
Thank you for your time,

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:12:19 -0700
From: "Scott Steele" <scottst at ohsu dot edu>
Subject: P4 blow by blow; the parrot man
>So, after all that techfest, sit back for a track by track guide to P4's
>West Coast Live

Thanks Sid!  Such fine detail.  I'll gladly put my head between the
speakers again with the track-by-track guide in front of me.

>And the parrot man tries to speak to the others, but they ignore him.

He talks to the wind, his words are all carried away.  This was an
entertaining post - I enjoyed it quite a bit.  - S.

scottst at ohsu dot edu

Date: 26 Oct 99 13:57:48 MDT
From: konstantin chimkovitch <koando at usa dot net>
Subject: DGM US problem
Hi, ETers

I'd like to share some negative experience I have with DGM US.  I have
ordered The ProjeKcts 9/10/99 from West Coast Canada.

 For my question about shipping and delivery time I've got an answer from
Bill that it could take about TWO MONTHS(!) (due to customs). So counting
that Germany's a little bit further, Lothar has to be tolerant and wait for
may be 6 month, I guess, may be more. After 1.5 months I tried to contact
DGM, but you couldn't reach them out. I tried to call by phone, using
numbers from CD's covers. Numbers are different, but they're out of order
or nobody answers anyway. Eventually I'd got luck. Amy replied my e-mail
(I've sent dozens of them) and said that couldn't trace my order, because I
didn't write an order number. But the order number was the subject of my
e-mail. Two weeks ago they've debited my credit card, so now I must wait
for a couple of months and get an excellent present for Christmas or New
Year! Thank you, guys from DGM!  You ignore a customer and I'll NEVER USE


Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:55:02 -0400
From: "Lauren" <dmend at prodigy dot net>
Subject: Court remaster
If I recall correctly, on the "Frame by Frame" box set the liner notes
indicated that the original master of 'Schizoid was missing. Does anyone
know if this has been found and is it used on the 30th anniversary remaster?

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 21:49:59 PDT
From: Gustavo de la Vega <delavega at dakotacom dot net>
Subject: Cirkus (not that one!)
After cleaning out my closet, I can across a couple of items.
A CD of KC Cirkus:  live recording from the Acadamey of Music, N.Y.C.
11/24/73 - Late Show. (the date is wrong because it's the same as the
Nightwatch) tracks include: Cirkus, Pictures of a City, Formentara Lady,
Sailors Tale, 21st. CSM, The Devils Triangle.  Sound is very good. Fripp,
Collins, Wallace, Boz.  & a Tape of USA - Editions EG 8?. Both are in mint

I don't really listen to them so however wants them can have them. I'm sure
someone will put them to good use. THEY ARE FREE.  Let me know.
First come first serve!!!!

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 02:18:15 EDT
From: Mk2spirits at aol dot com
Subject: re: loose ends and RF as teacher
      For Dan B.,  you stated in # 619 that it was FZ who "discovered"
Belew... maybe (I dont know why I care), however I Believe Adrian in 79 or 80
(Im getting old,memory you know) was with a band called Gaga (this may be
incorrect) that opened for the League of Gentlemen, at least in
Cleveland...this may be when Fripp and Belew first made contact.   This was
my first time seeing/hearing Fripp and well Im sure you all understand...
      A funny (not so then being fairly far back in the club) story about
Fripps opening announcement, "it is not necessary to see the musician to
enjoy the music...the area in front of the stage is for dancing".   You can
imagine the (not quite) riot that didnt take place in the REAR of the club.
       And finally, my only post on this subject (possibly any).  First let
me qualify this by saying I have had the honor of being a crafty, not a very g
ood crafty, but at the very least, an aspiring crafty (let alone guitarist).
I spent time in RF's presence and even though I never quite got over my
initial incounter/greeting ( I arrived a few hrs late because of travel
snafus to " You must be Mark...Your late"), not being handled "gently" so to
speak was very crucial to the shaking up of the habits I would soon discover.
 This Im sure was done very conciously, as Im sure are most of his actions.
          RF has (imho) more than fulfilled his obligation as a teacher, and
to those not willing to accept responsibility for their actions, be it as
student, audient or fan, understanding the (possible) required detached,
"objective" view of an artist, teacher will most likely be
        This is my first visit to ET and after seeing the first postings from
the archives (pretty old ones) I address the above to those who think Fripp
(not that he cant defend himself if he chooses) owes them an audience for
being a performer/artist.  NEWS FLASH:  he doesnt.   I saw him at a show a
couple yrs ago and approached him to say hi, only to be ignored....so
what...its HIS right/choice and I accept that.
        The music is not the man...you dont have to like the man to recieve
  from the music, nor does one have to see the performer to experience the
       Ok  thats all, I apologise for bringing this up again.    Peace and
Blessings to you all    Mark Webster    Mk2spirits at aol dot com

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:39:35 CEST
From: "Dominik Brueckner" <nikbrueckner at hotmail dot com>
Subject: re: serious problems with DGM
Hi everybody, hi Alexander,

sad to read about your problems with the Collectors' Club. I have another
one: Did anybody realise that the CC is much cheaper for americans to join
than for europeans? For example: the cost in USD is about 170 Marks, while
the cost in BP is about 230 Marks! Not quite the same amount, is it? I asked
DGM about that a couple of weeks (!) ago, but didn't receive an answer from
them yet. What about "we care for our customers" and so on? A short note
like "we don't want to answer your question" would at least have made clear
to me, that my Email reached them!
I would have been a member of the CC for quite a long time if this wasn't so
unclear (I hope the grammar was right: if I could understand it, I maybe
would join) - let alone that as a student I have neither 170 nor 230 Marks
to spend at once!

But this is a bit strange, isn't it? It's one of the cases of "I would
gladly give you all the money I have if you'd take care of me as a
customer." (I hope someone at Microsoft reads this: Think about this one!)

By the way: I think DGM could sell more of the CC CDs if it would be
possible to purchase one at a time via Email just like the others. I would
at least get a few.


Dominik Brueckner

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:39:25 -0400
From: "Brian E. Rounsavill" <brian at electrochem dot org>
Subject: CDs for Sale/Trade
I have the following CDs that I would like to sell or trade:

1. King Crimson - "Space Groove" 2 CD set
2. Miles Davis - "Panthalassa-The Remixes" CD
3. Bill Laswell - "Nagual Site" CD

Would be willing to trade for '73-'75 KC material or take cash.  Please
contact me via private e-mail.

Brian E. Rounsavill, CAE, CMP
Director of Meetings, Exhibits and On-Line Services
The Electrochemical Society, Inc.
10 South Main Street
Pennington, NJ  08534-2896 USA
Phone: (609) 737-1902 ext. 16, Fax: (609) 737-2743
E-mail: brian at electrochem dot org
Web: http://www.electrochem.org/staff/brian.html

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:37:17 +0200
From: "domenico" <packard dot goose at infonie dot be>
Subject: Drum study/Let's face the facts/ProjecKt
ProjecKt box, at least, came into my life after two damn long years of
desperate anguish and fear.

Ive just finished my first listening of the whole thing, lied religiously on
my bed in the dark to keep all my attention and intentions focused.

King Crimson is just about rhythms. It always has been. Brief history :

First, there was Michael Giles, powerful and precise, as Carl Palmer.

Then, McCullough, just precise but without personnality.

Ian Wallace came in, very blues rooted. John Bonham kind of.

And then Bill. Many says that Bill changed after sharing the role with Jamie
Muir. Maybe someday we had to ask that very question to that very man. Muir
is much more a painter than a percussionist. His work on Music Improvisation
Ensemble, even with Boris, never blew me out ; he just hitted things wich
gave beautiful sounds and textures to a whole. He gave that peculiar colour
to the Larks album. It gaves density. But nothing more. I heard a recent duo
between Muir and Derek Bailey. The facts remains intact, only the sound was
different. And crap. The truth is i see BB remained the only one to play
both drums and percussion. Any musician in that position will have to do his
best. And that is actually happens now with Pat, isnt it ?

More BB : not because he is and was in Crimson, but he is the only drummer i
now who completely changed his way of drumming (talking about leaving him
with USA and discovering him again with Discipline). Nobody did that, and
nobody, never, will do.

So, King Crimson is just about rhythms. Now that we are witnesses of change
that has occured between old fashionned Bill and young teeth Pat, it became

Just two things before i go further ;

    1.. i became a drummer myself because of that band
    2.. whatever the band might do i will still be there to support them
I will do the chronic, even if nobody is interested, in reverse :

    1.. P4 West Coast Live
    Electronic drumming will stay electronic drumming. Even if Pat does a
brilliant work with his samples and patterns, much better than Belew, wich
is not difficult - sorry folks - and much more inventive, i fear that those
will not pass through the years. Playing drums is not only a question of way
of playing, but also a way of sounding. And here, apart from those trigger
effects, is flat. Not more than Soundscape concert plus beatbox. I know, im
hard saying that.

    Note that on the end of the album, Pat just pull the band out and
becomes faster and faster wich made Fripp remain silent. I found it strange.
Couldnt he follow him anymore ?

    2.. P3 Masque
    Its pretty clear this is the main one which needs the most
concentration. A beautiful work indeed from the studio. Was it to hide all
the musical weakness ? It seems more like to a collage of sketches. A
studying starting point for further Crimsoid exploartion.

    3.. P2 Live Groove
    Space Groove was disappointing. It was doubly disappointing as it was a
double cd. Gunn, Fripp and Belew sure did have a good time recording this ;
but like so many, it was probably one of those things it is so cool to play
but so boring to listen too. Too long, too verbious, too sterile.

    But Live Groove is rough. Rough and Concise. Surely, the result of the
most played repertoire of the whole in extensive touring.

    4.. P1 Jazz Cafe
It just makes me regret T.Lev. How amazing is he. And here again. All those
bass lines from hellThe most old fashionned way of the four cds ; the
approach might recall KC73 but without the taste of despair only provided by
the now burried but not forgotten Mellotron. It got quacks and many "
accidents ", but that makes it organic and true. Hearing BB on an
improvisation leading role behind his drums after twenty years is quite
disturbing. His jazz feel is balanced by a trio of axe man from wich tons of
chords and heavy noises falls out, leaving him as only response powerfull
drumming wich is the thing he is really not. BB is subtle and gentle.

Its time now to put an end to all those facts regarding BB. Where do you
find, dear Eters, a Tony Williams influence in his playing ? Williams did
boost the drumming between 1965 and 1968 with the Miles Davis Quintet ; to
be very large, even in his Lifetime outfit by 1969, but he did like Elvin
Jones, Art Blakey before him did, all in their ways and style. Not to
mention the most spectacular fact : Williams was just 18 years old when he
made chant his ride like no one else before.

How many of you did buyed the not Crimsoid at all but so beautifulat " If
Summer Had Its Ghosts " (DGM9705), wherin BB tells about his debt to Dave
Brubecks drummer Joe Morello ?

Each and everyone of you might listen to Mister Max Roach wich is in fact
the main BB influence. His work upon time and against time is symptomatic.
There is a splendid work between him and saxophonist Archie Shepp on the Hat
Series called " The Long March Vol.1 & 2 ". Dig it. Any other clue ? Never
listen to his rythmic ensemble MBoom ? Funny how the name is close to Bboom,
isnt it ?

To resume : ProjecKt box is full of dark corners wich wait to be explored
further more. This set may not be considered as a final statement. Only
photographs of a collective attempting to survive to itself, remebering from
where they came and searching a way to go somewhere else. Only a guide for
the paths which leads to the future. A base of study, not only for Crimsoid
fans  i dont say Crimheads  but for Crimson members too.

I love you all.

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:39:09 PDT
From: "Nomad Stem" <nomad_stem at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Dreaming
I had a dream.

I was sitting at a table with Bill Bruford and Tony Levin.  I believe music
by Tony was playing in the background.  But there was also music by the
Carpenters at some point.  Which led me to ask Tony what he though of his
playing, but Tony seemed to be occupied with something else and didn't
respond.  I then asked Bill what he thought about Pat Mastelotto's
production contributions to the P3 and P4 CDs.  Bill was only reluctantly
complimentory, but then said something to the effect that King Crimson
should leave the electronica thing well enough alone.  Oh well.

It was just a dream.

Then I woke up late for work.

Robert writes: "And onto a piece which I've been hesitant in moving forward.
It's an area which I haven't played in since 1974: very European, very
difficult, involving whole tones and fast continuous single-note lines. Part
of the same family blood as "Fracture"."

This is exciting news indeed.  I'm not sure what it means musically, but
this place that Fripp speaks of not playing in since 1974 is the same space
that produced some of the most beautiful music that King Crimson recorded.
I don't know if that's what Fripp is alluding to, but it might mean there
will be a chance for more of that Crimson beauty to shine through.  After
all, as foreward thinking as the ProjeKcts have been, they haven't created
very much truly beautiful music - and I'm not talking elevator or hotel
lobby stuff.  I'm talking about the place where Exiles, Starless, Trio came


Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:15:22 EDT
From: MCzar52625 at aol dot com
Subject: Visiting the future with King Crimson?
Greetings ET Community,
I feel compelled to write on the subject of OPINIONS.  Many of the thoughts
expressed in this newsletter are mired in the- my musician hero can beat up
your musician hero.
Or to mention my favorite new strain, your musician hero did not evolve, he
doesn't fit in with the future.  Well, open the pod door Hal.  In my future
many people will not be allowed to use "IMO," instead they will be required
to use
"IMSMO"= In My Small Minded Opinion.

Hey Baby, lets get negative.
Mike Czar

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 01:07:14 EDT
From: Belewp at cs dot com
Subject: Robert is listening to Tool
I don't know why this is such a big deal to me but I hope this leads to some
sort of collaboration or tour considering the respect between the two bands.
Maybe I assume to much out of shear antcipation, I feel like a child
again(good feeling}. Also considering how fast Crimson work in the studio,
there is a possibility of Krimson's and Tool's albums coming out at the same
time .

One final note.........Belew Rocks!!!!!!

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:50:34 +0200
From: izyrp at odn dot de
Subject: Bill Rieflin
If you enjoy Fripp's guitar playing you should buy Bill Rieflin's "Birth
of a giant"
Fripp's playing contributes to 9 of 11 tracks, 2 of which he also
Robert  is credited for playing: "angular guitar, durango guitar,organ
solo, insect guitar, organ spray, freight train guitar, vibes,
angels,vibro&bluesy guitars, octaves,mood extention,rhythm and dueling
Rieflin's singing reminds of Sylvian's voice a little.
The concept of this could be described as
post-new-wave-ambient-psychedelic-a little bit of heavy-metal meets
superb guitarist soloing and accompanying.
Bobby's solo on "spy thriller" I 'd think of as one of his best.

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:04:06 +0300
From: "GENNADI A. ORLOV" <gong at ur dot rags dot ru>
Subject: About the sleevenotes by Robert Fripp..
Hello Crimheads,

I want to tell you that Robert Fripp wrote the sleevenotes for Robin
Trower's 4CD :

Twice Removed from Yesterday/Bridge of Sighs (BGO 339, England, 1996,

For Earth Below/Live (BGO 347, England, 1997, compilation)

Long Misty Days/In City Dreams (BGO 349, England, 1997, compilation)

Caravan to Midnight/Victims of the Fury (BGO 352, England, 1997,

In these sleevnotes Robert Fripp wrote by the way about his guitar
lessons from Robin Trower.


Moscow, RUSSIA

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:30:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: flaherty michael w <z946128 at rice dot farm dot niu dot edu>
Subject: ProjeKcts Box; KC Club
Some thoughts on the recent ProjeKcts recordings:

I.  When I heard the club release, I was surprised at how much P4 sounded
like P2.  A quick glance at the sleeve showed that they were working on
some of the same material.  When I heard the box version, I was surprised
at how similar the versions of the same tracks were (not an criticism, but
an observation).  With this in mind, I expected P3 to cement this sound,
and lead us toward Crimson versions.  I was surprised to find that they
were very different from P2 and 4.  Gentelmen, keep the surprises coming.

II.  While I won't go as far as to call this the best Crimson ever, I will
call it the best Crimson in a very, very long time, and add that I would
not be upset if the ProjeKcts had contiued.  My personal favorite
is P1, followed fairly closely by P3.  I love them all, but, like Bill
Bruford, I have a real love for group improvs in which accidents are
forced to happen.  This was obviously more the case w/ P1 than 2 or 4, and
at least SEEMS to be the case with P3.

III.  As Pat worked a great deal with the tapes of P3, I would suggest
that a full, untouched performance of this unit would make for a
particularly valuable club release.  In fact, as P1 played only 4 times
and P3 (at least publicly) played only, if I counted correctly, 5 times,
perhaps the complete performances of these two units could be made

Michael Flaherty

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 14:56:58 -0700
From: studio seventeen productions <ambient at adnc dot com>
Subject: Sacred Songs/Daryl Hall (+ Fripp) Japanese CD mint on ebay
Just wanted to let you know I put my mint condition Japanese CD of Sacred
Songs / Daryl Hall featuring Robert Fripp up for auction on ebay.

It has a nice deluxe booklet with lyrics in English and Japanese, and it's
a great album!

Please check it out at



dave at studio seventeen

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:59:14 -0400
From: mike pierron <pierron5 at mei dot net>
Subject: ProjeKct box dates
Does anyone know which dates the P2,P3 & P4 cds are compiled from? Does
it have that information with the box? Any help would be appreciated,
thanks in advance!


NP: Robert Fripp- 07/29/79 Mahubay Gardens, San Francisco CA

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:54:46 -0400
From: Kevin <kevin at minds-eye dot org>
Subject: FFWD for sale
I have a copy of the Robert Fripp/Orb CD, FFWD that I'm selling for $20
if anyone is interested.  I believe this is oop.  60 plus minutes of
Fripp soundscapes and Orb textures make for an interesting piece of
electronic music.

If you're interested, please contact me at

kevin at minds-eye dot org

By the way, the Projeckts box set is fantastic (with the Projeckt 2,
Live Groove being the only weak leak (What can I say, I really don't
like that guitar synth piano sound)).  I can hardly wait to hear the
double duo now.  This should be a very nice incarnation of the King.

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:08:48 +0200
From: "Christian Skina" <stalker at bart dot nl>
Subject: Gurdjieff-Sylvian_Fripp question
During a 3 hours radio program celebrating Gurdjieff, the Dutch station has
broadcasted some pieces performed by Gurdjieff himself on a table harmonium.
The sound made me think of a solo I've heard in  the Sylvian-Fripp "Gone to
Earth" composition (those final notes, which I liked so much - this is why I
have also remembered them). I don't even know if it was a guitar and if so,
who played it.
But my question is: does anyone have the LP entitled "Gurdjieff
Improvisations"? I don't have any other information about that, I only know
it contains improvisations by Gurdjieff, recorded in 1949 during the parties
he threw in Paris.

(also last week, the Dutch television presented a program on G. movements
and some Bennett footage was shown. Also students during the "Movements" at
Sherborne, 1972 or so. I have spotted a couple of hippies who looked like Mr
Fripp, that was a funny thought...)
Christian Skina

Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:53:28 -2216
From: Alain Proulx <alain dot proulx2 at tr dot cgocable dot ca>
Subject: Peter Hamill
I saw Sat. Oct. 30th Peter Hammill in concert with Stuart Gordon
(violin) in Quebec.  Well, what an intimate great evening it was.
Wonderful...This guy has the same powerful voice than 25 years ago with
a lot more control and emotion.

With only two instruments and his voice, Hammill succeeded to present a
concert full of colors and a very wide range of intensity.  The play of
Gordon was always meaningful and very very cut...the right thing at the
right place within the spirit of Hammill's creations.  We know Hammill
isn't a great keyboardist or guitarist but he always keep himself inside
his limits and sure of his play.  Nice setlist covering a long period.

But most of all, what a nice evening with a so smart guy, generous and
respectful.  Hammill's songs are a gift he shared with us in an intense
atmosphere sometimes dramatic, sometimes tragic and sad...but always
intelligent and sensitive.  The guy STILL a LIVING legend, a giant.

Cheers everyone...

A. Proulx

Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:37:31 EST
From: Mikewyz at aol dot com
Subject: missed Diary entries
I missed Fripp's Diary entries between 10/5 and 10/14, could someone send
those to me; either text format or within the body of an e-mail is acceptable.


Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:30:00 -0300
From: "SYNCHRO, RONALD VOGEL" <RONALD dot VOGEL dot SYNCHRO at la2 dot monsanto dot com>
Subject: Projekcts.. again
Hi all

I bought my Projekct box last friday. I won't spend any more time writing
about the music itself, tough i liked it a lot. IMHO i think that this kind
of stuff was done only because: a) not all musicians could attend recording
shows or live gigs all at once, b) KC  as a whole unit requires more than
simple jamming and improving around.

As a matter of fact that is my opinion about the Projekcts. It is a way
found by Fripp of continuing recording and touring and of course, releasing.
They make money out of it and present us with a new musical direction. It is
really not a box set like Epitaph or TGD. There are 4 individual units boxed
together at the beginning. For sure they are going to be sold separetely in
a near future given the fact that the units are prepared for it. The only
changed required is a small stripping to put new DGM's releasing numbers (
Projekct box is DGM 9913 A,B,C and D while "Deception of the Thrush" is
DGM's 9915.

During the last 2 years we have been presented with 8 physical CDs out of
projekcts. 2 from Space Groove, 1 from CC # 7, 4 from the box and 1 from the
"best of". Lots of stuff isn't it? For the moment the Projekcts seem to be
in a waiting phase. I wonder what's next?

Cheers   Ronald Vogel

Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:05:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Christopher Allen Nollett <cnollet1 at bigred dot unl dot edu>
Subject: Excessive E-Mails to the DGM North America
     I want to address the issue of excessive and needless e-mails
sent to the DGM North America office.  Patience is virtuous and sadly
many Crimso fans acted without regard to such a virtue in their
relentless attitude in obtaining the ProjeKct box set for release.
The DGM North American office was flooded with repeat e-mails that
inquired about pending orders.  From a pragmatic view the delay in
receiving orders was entirely feasible, being that the organization is
still undergoing development.  So I patiently sent out two e-mails in
the two weeks pending delivery.  However my pragmatic efforts were
diluted by those who insisted on frantic repetition.  This is a
message to all who do business with the North America office to use
your electronic resources sparingly so other fans such as yourself can
have the oppurtunity to have their concerns addressed.  Unfortunately
I had to cancel my order, as I could buy the box set at a cheaper cost
at my local record retailer, because my concerns were lost in the
disaray of frantic Crimsonites.  So to all in the future-Please Act
With Courtesy and Regard to Your fellow Crimson fan-when addressing
your order concerns at DGM North America.

Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:31:32 -0500
From: James Beard <nbeard at compuserve dot com>
Subject: The Deception of the Thrush
Review of "The Deception of the Thrush - The Beginners' Guide to the

I think one of the reasons that this music appeals to me is that it sounds
like nothing else in my record collection. Most of it is uncategorizable.
This might be because they have largely ignored any sense of convention or
cliche. There is often no sense of linear progression and no 'tune'.

There are some really good ideas in each of the ProjeKcts; if they pick
these out and use them for the next Crimson record proper it could be
fantastic. The only thing I'm not keen on is some of the slightly too
dissonant THRaKKing of ProjeKct One's 4i1 and a couple of the 'Masque'
tracks. I was actually present at the 2/12/97 P1 gig, and I thought there
were many times where none of the 4 members seemed to be listening enough
to each other. They were all in different keys and time signatures (well
not quite, but almost), and it sounded a bit incoherent. But at other times
(when they were sensitive to what each other was playing), they were much
closer to the mark.

I really like the more atmospheric, almost ambient tracks, such as P2's
'Sus-tayn-Z', and track no. 5 from P3's 'Masque' section of the
compilation. My overall view of the 'sound' of much of The ProjeKcts is one
of quiet menace. They never let you sit comfortably for long though. Like
the opening soundscape from Vrooom, just when you're turning up the volume
to hear the quiet sounds, so the band comes shredding in with a vengeance.
In a good way.

It's interesting to note that Fripp and Gunn are both in all of the
ProjeKct groups, whilst Bruford is only in one. I would be very interested
to hear what other unexplored ProjeKcts might sound like, such as
Levin/Belew/Bruford, Levin/Gunn/Mastelotto or even Bruford/Mastelotto.

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 01:15:18 +0100
From: "Rainer Straschill" <rs at moinlabs dot de>
Subject: Ian_McDonald:_Driver's_Eyes
I recently picked up McDonald's solo album "Driver's Eyes" and would like to
share some impressions with you.

The cd comes in a cardboard sleeve, which is (like the booklet and the cd)
coloured grey/light blue, giving an aura of a cold winter day. The booklet
contains all the lyrics and a nice listing of musicians. All the material
has been written or co-written by McDonald. Featured musicians include
Michael Giles (also on vocals !), John Wetton and Steve Hackett. The "rock
band plus reeds" band setup is augmented on several tracks by a chamber
string orchestra. Ian McDonald plays his usual multitude of instruments:
acoustic and electric guitar, bass, alto sax, flute, clarinet, bass
clarinet, electric piano, clavinet, organ, synths and vocals.

The music didn't live up to my exspectations at all. I have to say that I've
never heard anything by Foreigner, so I don't know anything Ian has done
since ITCOTKC. The eleven tracks on the album have some "boring pop song"
quality, but without the qualities of a good hit. Some songs show hints of
good ideas, some have melodic or harmonic segments that even remind of
ITCOTKC material, but the good sections are "arranged away" in a pop-song
corset. What's more, the vocals on most tracks are of a constant low niveau.

Conclusion: There are lots of good albums currently available. Driver's Eyes
is not one of them. If you absolutely want to get something by Ian McDonald,
you're better off with the ITCOTKC remaster - even if you already own the
old cd or the vinyl version.

Rainer Straschill
Moinlabs GFX and Soundworks

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:10:47 -0400 (GMT-0400)
From: "Rafael E. Zamora G." <rzamora at ing dot ula dot ve>
Subject: 1971 shows
I would like to thank the efforts of Roland Vogel and Brian Burton to want
give us the opportunity of hearing those King Crimson 1971 shows.  I
expect Robert Fripp shares with them the same interest and wish to release
that incredible music, and to permit us to listen again that 1971 line.
More opportunities to Boz, Wallace, Collins.  Of course, I would like too
the opportunity to hear the line of Haskell,Lizard cd.  Wasn`t there any
lost recording, jamming, or anything there of them?

I hope Fripp decide to release all this stuff for welfare of all us

Mike Stok