Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #611 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 611 Tuesday, 7 September 1999 Today's Topics: NEWS: this issue is devoted to posts about the Mexico download Sit Back and Watch Mexico City Mexico problems Re: Microsoft and KC Knuckleheads... for ET: give Santa Anna a break MS/Media/Bitchery download what?!?! KC Mexico City workaround Re: MexCity Report and a Question Re: the Microsoft-only format Mex City - decode to WAV Mexico City and Projekcts Technology: a Tangled Web (Mex City ET) A different perspective kc download live in MC How to convert Mexico city wma to wav? live in MC Download Re: MS/DGM deal ( Problem with KC in Mexico City Mexico/Microsoft Mexico City Sleeve KC Live in Mexico CD Cover FREE Long live (in) Mexico Concert crimson concert Macs 'N' Mex. A Topical Joke!? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:02:36 +0100 From: Toby Howard Subject: NEWS: this issue is devoted to posts about the Mexico download This issue of ET contains posts only about the Mexico download. Once again I hope this arrangement is convenient for you. Cheers to all Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:34:24 -0700 From: "Joey Aguilera" Subject: Sit Back and Watch I wish people who are complaining about the concert archive idea would just sit back and give it a chance. It's still brand new, who knows how it will evolve in the coming months. It took me 3 hours and it was damn worth it, now I have a 756mb wav file waiting to be burned to CD so I can listen to it in my car!!! Thank you DGM! Joey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:55:01 +0100 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: Mexico City Well done DGM! There is no doubt in my mind that this is the future of music publishing; but unfortunately the technology isn't quite ready for it yet. Soon, but not yet. Firstly, some observations on the technology: - Whilst the compression is impressive technically, the quality just isn't good enough yet, to my ears. The drums seem to suffer particularly badly. "B'Boom", for example, sounds like it is being performed using wet fish and cardboard boxes! More bandwidth, please! - Because of the above, it would be a shame if this really is the only format that this recording is ever released in. Can we have a higher- bandwidth version, please? - No track divisions. It is a very long single recording. That's not too listener-friendly. - No liner notes, artwork, etc. - Having said that, the quality is no worse than "B'Boom" or several of the Collectors Club releases. But I am sure that the original tapes are a whole lot better! ...but, in time I'm sure these limitations will be overcome. Secondly, the performance: - Excellent! - "Neurotica" is great fun, and a unique offering - "21st CSM" is very interesting to hear -- although I have to admit to being pretty sick and tired of the vocal part of this song, which I find very dated now (unlike some other tracks on ITCOTK). Interesting to hear Adrian's approach to the song -- a wonderful cynical sneer seems to come through. Because of these two unique aspects of this concert, I for one would be sad if we never get to hear them in better quality (or, alternatively, some other recording from the later performances of the double trio). -- Russell Whitworth http://www.anchorag.demon.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:55:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Art Cohen Subject: Mexico problems >However when I tried to run it, it pulled up Netscape and in that >window, I got some weird HTTP syntax error. What the hell is going on >here. Hasn't anyone tested this frapping thing to make sure it works? >You need to do some good QA on this stuff people! I had the same problem. I eventually had to take the long URL that the media player was trying to open in Netscape and copy and paste it into Internet Explorer before I could play the file. FYI a friend of mine reports that he's successfully converted the .wma file to a WAV file and burned it to regular audio CDs (for personal use only, of course), so the presumed copyright protections provided by this new format are apparently not as strong as DGM might have hoped. Still, the sound-quality-to-file-size ratio *is* very nice and once I got the bloody thing working it sounded quite good. --Art * -------------------------------------------------------------------------- National Ska & Reggae Calendar http://www.agitators.com/calendar/ * -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:56:07 -0700 From: Jack Brown Subject: Re: Microsoft and KC The Microsoft Media Player and encoding system are still in their infancy. Reports have come out in the last few days about the ability to remove watermarking etc. I consider the selection of Microsoft a poor choice. Liquid Audio files are secure, CD/broadcast quality and their digital watermarking is (for now) secure even when transferred to an analog format. Amazon.com, CDNow and Yahoo to name a few are all utilizing this file format. It is a 8-10x compression scheme for quick, secure downloads. I now have access and additional space available on the Liquid Music Network and would be glad to post some KC or other tracks on the server. Jack Brown Intents Creative Productions ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:16:14 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Knuckleheads... Some of you characters out there are real knuckleheads. While i agree its an important to voice your desires (such as non-Windows players, non-WMA formats), just BITCHING that they aren't currently available is getting annoying. Imagine a scenario in the near future where all that stuff is available. In retrospect, will the pre-everything time (that we are currently in) seem so bad, so that at least those who want the download can get it? Not everyone has moral qualms about working through MS to get what they want if needs be (or at least, some of us are able to ignore those qualms and get it anyway). So what? I would venture a guess that DGM does not have piles of computer guys (yes, guys) they can pay to get all of this stuff up and running in one shot (or would you prefer that they waited until they could? That would be a long wait!). In any event, you're missing the real point here. In establishing an on-line bivouac, DGM has taken another step around the need for retailers and distribution. This capitalizes on an important Internet trend that may change things about the way music business is performed. With direct distrubtion, there's much less overhead. Potential customers may be able to "sample your wares" without having to plunk down dough to begin with. What this may mean in the end is that, all of a sudden, it may be possible for musicians to once again support themselves through their music (fellow New Yorker Chuck D is predicting 1 million artists and 5,000 labels within 3 years). Perhaps because those of us who sometimes communicate on-line are so close to this technology, it doesn't seem all that interesting. But in conjunction with DGMs stated goals (and actions, I would argue), this is significant. That being the case, how can DGMs present non-binding alliance with MS be all that bad, if for no other reason than as a "trial balloon" for how to do this? Quit bein' little babies, or I may have to come over to where you live, confiscate your King Crimson, and force you to listen to that grown-up Menudo guy ("Vida Loca") for 24 hours straight! -The Night Watchman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:50:36 -0700 (PDT) From: James Crary Subject: for ET: give Santa Anna a break Dear ET: If I owned the Microsoft Wizardry needed to suck at the hellish proboscis Rob Fripp and DGM have extended to allow the siphonage of a Mexico City gig, and was not today so deaf as to render the appreciation of music entirely moot, I would no doubt be filling my gills with the excellence of Belewaphantitis from beyond the Alamo. So this letter isn't to me, or to you, or to anyone likely to read it. This letter is instead to the Faithful Crim, wherever he or she may be, who, sitting with arms folded before all the necessary Microsoft musclepower, has seen this offer for what it is: Fripp's faithless, but desperate plea that someone, anyone, show that they understood his desperate, pleading lobby for the last 20 years, and that in appreciation would refuse to take what is offered, when offered in such a way as to be pitiless towards the offerer. There is little question that this download is DGM's question to itself: has anyone heard us? Does anyone at all understand and believe us? It is their way, I believe, of saying, "if you would take what we offer this way, then it doesn't even matter that you love us," like the freemen in Jakaruta of Dune, whose captives spit before the crysknife to symbolize, "I think nothing of my water when taken by one such as you." But there she or he is, the Faithful Crim, smiling with the bliss of a fool on the hill, or a lucky teen who has heard Bolero: A Peacock's Tale for just the third time. And there, this Faithful Crim, offering neither rant, nor explanation, awaits only word of a chance to pay the appropriate price, for music beyond measure. James Crary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:25:41 -0700 From: "Stephen Goodman" Subject: MS/Media/Bitchery I work on the PC side of the fence in many regards, though (up until several years ago) I never hesitated to recommend a Mac if it seemed suitable (like in the somewhat former strongholds of Advertising, etc., or an all-Mac department). Similarly, I remain on Microsoft's side concerning a lot of things, though not all. Having posted from the beginning in RealAudio, I can't be called an anti-Progressive Networks person; I do question their comments about predatory behavior on MS' part, especially when they don't back them up with cold facts - a bit reminiscent of our current Administration in DC. However, the recent spats about IM on AOL's part have really tripped me off, now that the following happened (in case you're wondering what this has to do with the sound material on DGM, read on): During a use of the G2 RealPlayer two nights ago, I was notified by the program that an update was detected and available. Nearly 3MB later, I was shown an acknowledgement screen that was clearly an agreement form for membership in AOL Messaging, which only implied that they had the right to charge for it later, at an undetermined rate. This was no upgrade at all. If I'd not aborted the install via a Cancel then, Lord knows what would have happened. Awful timing on Real's part, as I'd been through a bad weekend installing lots of software on a new drive, and losing lots of data - including my address book - and had no tolerance for sneaky tactics such as this. No excuse for this one, sorry. Nope. So it would seem to be getting dirty out there in the media wars. I must say that I'd gotten a bit weary of the idea of a $149.95 encoder, and was waiting patiently for Microsoft to do something standard for a change. Alas, ASF files don't have that much of a compression factor in their favor yet. So I wait, and encode in whatever free encoders produce a reasonable result, in MP3 and G2... And I understand that the next MP4 will sport what may be that needed compression factor... Stephen Goodman * It's the free Loop Of The Week! EarthLight Productions * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios.html * (Hear a NEW "Star Spangled Banner" 8/13!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:27:32 +0200 From: malhomme Subject: download what?!?! Besides the association of DGM and microsoft (which doesn't please me too much considered the background of malpractice Microsoft has), let me share what happened when I TRIED to d/l the files, or at least listen to them. After a click, you get an interdiction because you don't have the good player (wouldn't an mp3 or quicktime do the job?). Ok so this thing knows that my hard disk soen't have their player. That is strating not very well. I don't like it. Obviously, the sole answer is to click on the microsoft link provided to d/l it. Darn. You can't even d/L for a future use.... Of course, I do all that , install media player (who would need that thing when you have quicktime 4). Of course after installation, it doen't work more. DARN DARN DARN!!! So it's ok for me. it is bye to the files. I knew I should use nothing from microsoft. Thay can't make anything work properly and they would impede anything to do. Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:32:00 -0400 From: "Roy Miles" Subject: KC Mexico City workaround I had a couple of friends who had some trouble playing the show after downloading it, getting some kind of licencing error... All you need to do is go into your \Windows\all users\drm diretory and delete all of the files in there, and try it again... It should work OK after that.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:56:13 +0200 From: "Tomasz Dwojak" Subject: Re: MexCity Report and a Question Hi. Johnathan Krall wrote in the last ET: _ the latest version of Winamp can decode it to a WAV file which can be burned to CD. To make the WAV, select Options > Preferences > Output > Nullsoft Diskwriter._ IAve got the latest (2.40) Winamp version. I set Options as above mentioned and ... nothing happend. Does anyone know how to convert WMA file into WAV format? I would be appreciate anyone's help me with this. Please e-mail me private. Thanks in advance, Tomek Dwojak ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:53:40 -0400 From: Roger Espel Llima Subject: Re: the Microsoft-only format > I disagree. If you re-read the announcement and the stuff > that was posted on the "Bootlegs" site, it is clear (to me) > that the real reason DGM chose to hook up with Micro$oft > is DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT. [...] > The DRM stuff built in to > the new Media Player allows the label to make sure that > they get paid and that you can't use the goods beyond > those purposes they licensed it for. and someone else added: > re: the statement about choosing MP3 as the format, I'd have to > say that IF some consortium were bolting a rights management > piece onto the basic MP3 stuff, it could have been the choice. If that is the case, then let me respectfully point out that this does NOT WORK, and more than that: it CANNOT work. Computers are not black boxes, despite Microsoft's attempts; even under Windows, it is perfectly possible to capture the digital output going to the soundcard. It is not even particularily hard. This means that, no matter what the original digital format is, no matter what protection it claims to offer, and no matter how many hoops the first user had to jump through to get a license to listen to the content, they can pretty easily save it as a raw soundfile (.wav or .aiff or whatever), then use a free encoder to make an mp3 out of it, which they can then keep, copy, give away, etc. The cat is out of the bag, for the good reason that it was *born* outside of the bag, and noone is going to manage to shove it in as long as computers have soundcards that take PCM through software drivers (and I really don't see *that* changing). On the more specific issue of this concert being available on a Microsoft-only format, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, and as ET/web has pointed out, none of use are *entitled* to it. Mike Oldfield once released an album with a cd-rom track that worked only on Macs. I don't have a Mac, but I didn't go yelling that I deserved to see it. I don't use Microsoft Windows, so I can't possibly get this KC concert, but then again it's not like it is a fundamental right of mine, and I can always use a friend's windows box to see it once. On the other hand, the analogy between this and DVDs (or CDs 12 years ago) is not entirely valid, because formats like CD or DVD are commodity industry standards, and where the user just buys it or not, but doesn't really have a choice between a number of incompatible but equivalent systems. With audio formats for computer systems, the situation is different: Windows is the largest player, but there are alternatives (Linux, MacOS and BeOS mostly), and they are actually thriving. And I I don't really see Microsoft releasing a (properly working) version of their Media Player for anything else than Windows and maybe MacOS. And there are a variety of sound formats too, released under different kinds of conditions, and many of them are thriving too. The other problem is with the Windows Media format itself: by using a closed format, the only players available are those that the one controlling company chooses to release. Other than platform support, this also means that when something doesn't work, you are a signle company's mercy. With mp3, I can download dozens of players, and if a file is readable at all, it's almost sure that I'll find one that will actually read it. With a single "Media Player" program, if something doesn't work, tough shit. And we've already heard of quite a few people having trouble playing the file, even though they met the stated requirements. Under these conditions, my take is that the sane thing to do would be to use mp3 for high quality downloads, and something like Real Audio for lower-end streaming. With this system as with any other, some people would cheat but the majority wouldn't, and the DGM community is tightly knit enough that one can expect honesty. It would probably be even cheaper for DGM to do things this way too. -- Roger Espel Llima, espel at iagora dot com http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:17:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dennis M. Parrott" Subject: Mex City - decode to WAV In ET 609, I wrote: > > - the latest version of Winamp can decode it to a WAV file > which can be burned to CD. To make the WAV, select > Options > Preferences > Output > Nullsoft Diskwriter. > It turns out that the latest version of Winamp (V2.5) does *not* support the decoding of the WMA file to WAV. It instead gives an error message: no .wav writing support for DRM enabled WMA streams. Fortunately, the previous version (V2.24) of Winamp *does* support WMA decoding. As I write this (8/26) this version is still available on their server as ftp://ftp.winamp.com/pub/winamp/winamp224_full.exe That Winamp turned off WMA decoding for this type of file alarms me. Basically, I find the download-for-a-price idea exciting, but would be much more enthusiastic if I was not expected to confine my listening to my computer (yuk). Home taping didn't kill music and home CDRs won't kill it either. I think I'll write to Winamp and give them my 2 cents. An aside for the young and/or non US citizens: Home Taping is Killing Music was a claim made by big record companies in the US back in 1980 or so (and in the UK, I think) in reference to analog cassette tapes (I still have some old LPs with this claim printed on the inner sleve). This claim was not supported by the facts. Kudos to DGM for going into uncharted territory, for taking me along, and for answering questions so patiently (especially in the guestbook - what a mess!). I hope a satisfactory arrangement can be worked out. Also, thanks to Joe Hartley and Keith Burns for helping me with Winamp info. Yours, Jonathan Krall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:52:34 -0500 From: "SYNCHRO, RONALD VOGEL" Subject: Mexico City and Projekcts Hi all Everyday i am beginning to feel more and more bored and angry at DGM. 1 -They released Japanese versions of liveProjeckts and we are waiting until now their promised box release in march, then august, then... when? 2 - Offer a download show in Mexico City for free. Great stuff, but what about the majority of the fans that cannot or where unable to download it. Will they ever release it as a CD. I would pay for it. I sure do love KC music but such DGM / Fripp behaviour really anoys me. Their services are not as good as Fripp says it would and they hardly keep their promises about releasing dates. They are not even efficient enough to charge me for some CDs i ordered and CC renewal. I know this is completely incorrect but as long as i am completely unable to download the aforementioned show could someone PLEASE record me Mexico City onto a CD-R or even cassete tape and send me. Of course i will reimburse all expenses. Please email me privately because i do not want that such subjects generates waves of unhappy customers posts to invade ET newsletter. Sorry. Cheers Ronald Miklos Vogel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:56:57 -0400 From: "Josh Chasin" Subject: Technology: a Tangled Web (Mex City ET) I spent the better part of 3 days trying to download the MexCity file; the best I was able to get was an hour-five out of the hour-seven, and I finally decided, close enough... I do find myself troubled by Crimson's association with Microsoft, but at the same time anyone paying even a little attention to Fripp's liner note journals and other screeds and missives will recognize the importance to the artist(s) of retaining ownership and control of copyright... but still, microsoft?? I can't help but wonder how thrilled DGM and its artists are going to be once Microsoft begins extracting their "toll" for use of the technology... and anyone who doubts this will happen has probably been listening to too many Jon Anderson solo albums (which is to say, is living in a faery land). The music sounds damn good to my ears-- the same body of work the band had been presenting since late '94 (and "B'Boom"), but the evolution of the performing unit is clearly evident... perhaps the most unique and outstanding thing about King Crimson is the extent to which, most decidedly unlike their peers, they truly are a live, improvisational band. The songs breathe, come to life, take unique turns over time... and so the prospect of a steady stream of qualit live Crimson is an exciting one. But here's where I find myself having trouble. I've got this gizmo in one room, which I call a stereo, and which I bought in order to listen to music. Then there's this whole other gizmo, in a whole 'nuther room, that I bought to do my job. That gizmo I call a computer. I really don't want to be listening to hi-fidelity music through the computer, any more than I want to proof Word documents through my stereo. So can anyone out there offer up a condensed walk-through of how to get the music I've just downloaded, onto an audio cd-r? (I have a burner.) OK, I'm off then. Carry on. Cheers from the States, Josh NYC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:38:36 +0100 From: "mark" Subject: A different perspective Wow! - its amazing how seemingly rational and intellegent people can get SO worked up about what is essentially a delivery mechanisim. The way I see it is that the delivery of music IS going to change sure there will still be cd's for studio albums and the like. But most bands and musicians produce a LOT more music than they release. I know a number of the bands I am into are sitting on hundreds of hours of archive material. As the collectors club has shown there is a market for it but it does need to be regluated and controled so that the money goes to the people who are trying to live off it. DGM are looking forward (as I supsect Mr Fripp always has) and they are trying to make the most of it. They have a ready and enthusiastic audience (even if no matter what is done someone doesn't like it) who WILL buy this stuff. Ok microsoft are not seen as the good guys but if they employ people like Steve Ball they must have some sense. I don't think the delivery channel thing is going to work out like any other technology - look at winamp - it plays a myriad of formats - different people will use different ones - my experimental music will continues to be release it tiny doses via mp3 and CDR, my friends band with a healthy live following press and release their own CD's. DGM need to make money in return for their work so they use a licensing mechanisim. Don't get hung up on who owns it - I'm sure if someone else offered better they will change in a moment - after all the players are free. The bottom line is that if I can see/hear a projeckt show of a double duo show BEFORE I read about it here then that is going to be brilliant and I for one can't wait. And don't think I'm pro-microsoft - I recently converted my laptop to linux and this machine is going linux too as soon as I can get some good sound card drivers and Harddisk recorder software. Technology is NOT important its what you do with it that is. Bring on the music. cheers mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:51:24 -0400 From: mike coffey Subject: kc download Has anyone else seen this message: Cannot play back the audio stream: no audio hardware is available. I have tried numerous times to download the player and the wma file. The closest I got was a bunch of streaming blips. Now I'm getting this message. Ant techie advice would be appreciated as this appears to be some kind of conflict between my different audio players. I have already moved Quicktime to a different drive. Any advice, I'm real anxious to hear this concert. Thanks, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:26:13 -0400 From: moses Subject: live in MC So, I finally got it to download. Then, excited, I clicked the icon. Media Player came up, then the DGM website. It asked me for my email address. No problem. I gave it. It then said "click here to play." I did. Media Player came back, then another DGM window, asking for my email address again. I told it again, and this time, the "click to play" link gave me an error(the file isn't in the directory it's looking for). I even tried downloading it again, but neither one works. Neither one is in a directory with spaces in it, so I have no clue what's going on. But I am depressed. But enough about me, what about you? Does anybody have any idea how to get it to work when you have this problem? If it's just something stupid I'm overlooking, then I'll feel silly, but I'd be grateful for any help you might have. Peaces, Moses moses at tmbg dot org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:19:52 -0700 From: M DuFrene Subject: How to convert Mexico city wma to wav? I'd like to burn this onto a CD-R, but when I tried the newest version of Winamp, which supports wma playback, to convert the file to wav, I find it doesn't support writing from a wma file. Have any ET'ers been successful? And how? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:41:51 -0400 From: moses Subject: live in MC Hi, I got it to work, so if you want to ignore my previous post, please do. If anyone is having trouble because the DGM window keeps coming up and asking for your email, and then you get a file error, reinstall Media Player, and erase any .key and .lic files from your windows/all users/drm/ directory. You'll need to get a new license, but then it will work! It seems that the latest version of Winamp(2.5) will also play .wma files. So there's another option for those that are having trouble with media player. On to the concert itself. At sixty-seven minutes long, this is either an atypically short concert, or just one set. I didn't hear any edits to indicate that this was compiled from a longer show. Of course, I only got the chance to listen to it all the way through once. Still, it sounds great, and if there's a second set, let's have it! I'll pay! Peaces, Moses moses at tmbg dot org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:50:59 PDT From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: Download Greetings Here's my problem: I have tried twice to download the mexico show and have only been able to get the first 25min before it sais download successful. so i can listen to the first 25 min and it cuts off during BBOOM/THRAK. anyway if anyone can assist me in what to do it would be gladly appreciated also i need to know a way i can transfer it to a wave file so i can burn a cd to listen to in my car and home players. i am running windows 98 with the media player installed. PLEASE HELP! Adodson19 at hotmail dot com email me personnaly. ta ta ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:20:08 -0700 (PDT) From: chris at loafer dot worldhq dot org Subject: Re: MS/DGM deal ( >> Microsoft, unlike their competitors, were willing to put time >> and energy >> into helping launch this project. They also have developed a >> technology >> that we will enable us to offer fans a whole range of music that would >> otherwise rot away in the archives. Our relationship with Microsoft is >> entirely non contractual , and beneficial to all those >> involved, including >> the fans. >And hey, fwiw, there *are* a lot of nice people who >work here, some of us Crimson freaks. ;-) Just like there are "nice" people working for Nike or Monsanto, right? I know, it's just a job and you get paid so much that you don't need to worry about social implications of what your company does...a true organization man. -ckm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:38:28 -0400 From: "Bill Duhigg" Subject: Problem with KC in Mexico City (I'm posting this to the Guestbook and ET) [I have a 100Mhz Pentium w/ 40 Meg of RAM.] All the downloading went OK and I got my 'license'. When "LiMC" plays it skips like a badly buffered streaming source. The skipping is worse when other applications are running, though it still skips when all but the Media Player are closed. While it is playing, Win95's System Monitor reports Processor Usage maxing out at 100% (and it hovers in the high 90's) while free memory drops below 10k if not to 0. When playing an MP3 file Media Player uses 20-30% of the processor (depending on file quality). It seems that my system isn't fast enough to decode this new media.... My 20 year old component stereo system is/was more easily & inexpensively "upgraded" for (far more permanent) "new" music media: CS, CD, MD, etc. (And there is a greater variety of upgrade options: discount store equipment to high-end audiophile.) To play this new Web media it seems I need for my computer (which, at $2000 in 1996 is a "high-end" device), at best, a processor/motherboard upgrade, and, at worst, I may need a new system (about another $2000). I'm interested in DGM's non-mainstream music (I'm a Club member), but, at this time, their Web music is not worth the money. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:07:36 -0400 From: the Grants Subject: Mexico/Microsoft Well, I must apoligize to all the wonderful people on this list ( for bashing the microsoft thing ). After reinstalling Virtual P.C. with windows 95 on my trusty 4 y/o Mac updating to I.E. 5.0, getting to the D.G.M. site, finding that I also needed the windows virtualmachine and the new mediaplayer,then 4 disconnects (screensaver was messing it up for somereason) I can now hear the mexico city concert and I must say it does sound good. It only took about a total of 6 hours to do all this so I consider myself lucky as I know some people living in distant lands cannot even download the 36 mb file in that amount of time. I have been following the postings here and in the diary so much that I had a parrable/dream that I felt I must share concerning D.G.M. and Microsoft and might have some insight as to how things may or may not be (dreams are slippery things). Again this is not to insult or judge anyone but maybe bring some historical perspective as it has for myself, so here goes. In a distant land many years ago (sort of a lame start) lived a respectable leader of a small fertilizer company (referred to from here on as "Durable Growth Media")and he was working toward a vision of improving the world by providing high quality nitrogen based fertilzer to farmers all over the world at a low cost and fair returns, He had started as a young worker for a multinational fertilizer corporation (called from here on as Euro Grow) that did not care for his visionary ideas or of the farmers actual needs so he decided to start his new interprise and soon was meeting with moderate success, the farmers were happy,and the leader was able to mix his own blends of fertilize to meet the needs of his clients in many different regions, he was soon known to must forward thinking farmers and they lined up waiting for the next wonderous mix to ship. But the leader wanted to improve more of the world as he invisioned to make it a greener more fruitful place. So he set out to find a new way to produce more fertilizer and distribute it at a still fair (almost unheard of) price in the industry but found that the resources he needed to grow to be in short supply and distribution much to costly. Then one day an official from the distant land (from here on reffered to as Mega State) offered him a deal that sounded too good to be true. The official offered to provide a new technology that could obtain nitrogen from the very air we breath plentifully and cheaply with no harm to the enviroment and provide distribution free worldwide as long as all shipments were sent via the railways owned by M.S., the official further expained that due to a previous conflict with other powers that M.S. was not to be directly involved in fertilzer production.(fears of world domination by M.S. were already causing international alarm) The leader of D.G.M. did not like the practices of M.S. but the idea of finaly realizing his dream was too much to pass up especially as he had assurances that his blends would not be altered, but many of the farmers were agast at the notion of D.G.M. doing anything with M.S. and they sent many letters to D.G.M. about how they felt and how M.S. had ripped them off, taken there possesions and there land and yes some of the letters were mean spirited or a kneejerk reaction but some of the farmers had already been hurt so badly by M.S. that paranoia and hate were all that was left. The leader of D.G.M. was upset and thought that some of the farmers were being unfair to D.G.M. or were blind to the wonderful things now possible with this loose affiliation (he was even quoted as saying "I'm not going to sleep with them, I'm only using there pillowcase"). Well things seemed to be going great at D.G.M., M.S. was keeping there word and the world seemed to be getting greener ,shipping was easyand inexpensive and the leader was able to concoct new and amazing formulas for the anxious farmers (as long as the farmers were willing to use M.S. standard farm equipment (amazingly M.S. was found to have made similar deals with tractor, pipe, rubber and many other companys in which M.S. was'nt allowed by international treaty to produce themselves). Then one morning upon awakening the leader of D.G.M. was feeling strange as if cold shivers washed up and down his spine, He turned on the light and looking down noticed a stange emblem on his pillowcase, it was small and hard to see in the dim light but it was there. He had seen it before and not paid much notice to it, A simple bent cross formation in black. He went to the kitchen for tea and picked up his morning paper as usual before heading to the plant. The headlines shocked him as never before "M.S. LIBERATES POLAND". Quickly gathering up his vest and glasses he heads outside toward the plant, on the way he notices tractors that have been easily converted to tanks, pipes into guns, commercial planes flew overhead again changed overnight into bombers, M.S. crews on the streets checking peoples I.D's to see if they were in the M.S. database as anti M.S. or worse if they belonged to minoritys like linuxians, appleates or unixians. Upon arriving at the fertilizer factory the leader did not see any of his friends and workers, on the far side of the building he finds the M.S. official and confronts him directly, What are you doing in my factory, we had an affiliation, my farmers need there fertilizer for next years crops what of my vision?. At this the official stood up proudly and tall saying in a strong voice" We have A vision also, a much greater and more powerful one, One with one people, one standard and one mission. All who consider themselves as one of us will share in this greatness that we are imbarking on, your vision was weak it gave people the idea that individual flaws are somehow advantages, those are the ones we must cleans the world of. Your nitrates are already being packed into shells and bombs and being transported cheaply and efficiently on our raillines, no one can oppose us and we will take back the greatness that was stolen from us in the first war. The D.G.M. leader crumpled to the ground, how could this be, he said to himself how could I have been used like this and not even see it comming. As the gravity of the situation settled on his heavy soul two M.S. Security and Survelance officers handcuffed him, as he kicked and screamed demanded to know why one of then said "According to our database you are quoted as saying "I'm not going to sleep with them, just use their pillowcases". This was as you see a rather strange dream (caused by a paranoia in no small part by M.S.) but is a compelling parable as to what really did happen in the days before and during WW II ( if you don't believe me do a net search on Nazi Germany and limitations after WW I ). I do not mean to insult or anger anyone, I just needed to have this dream vented on this wonderful and FREE way to exchange ideas. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:52:34 +0100 From: "vrooom" Subject: Mexico City Sleeve I have assembled a cover for Live in Mexico City Here: http://www.your-music.com/kc1.jpg and here: http://www.your-music.com/kc2.jpg Hope you like it! Darren http://www.your-music.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:41:23 -0400 From: "Mora, Daniel" Subject: KC Live in Mexico CD Cover FREE Hi everybody! This is the first time I post to ET. Actually, I'm not even subscribed, but I assembled some days ago a CD cover and back cover for Live in Mexico, and a ET fellow told me they were good, so I'm offering anyone interested, just send a message to dmora at laaraucana dot cl and I'll send the covers.(of course they're free, I did them only for fun) They are JPG files, grayscale (because I have a b/w laser printer), but they fit nicely with the almost grayscale RED cover :-)) Best to all, Daniel Mora Santiago, Chile ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:10:14 CEST From: "Macahan The Unifaun" Subject: Long live (in) Mexico Hi all pig-headed Crimsonites in cyber-land. I'm kinda new to this list and I've been reading the latest ET-digests with astonishment over how my theory about the joy of recognition and fear of change easily can be translated even to my fellow Kingsmen. King Crimson has made a pact with commersialism (wasn't it about time) ; Microsoft, to provide a concert for free on the web FOR THOSE WHO WANT IT!!! Sure, Microsoft wins a lot on the deal, but otherwise the recording of this concert would probably never see daylight. Thing is, that money makes the world go round, world go round, and with the exception of a decreasing blur of honest, idealistic people, money is needed to whatever you want to do, and when money is transferred in ways that pleases me, I'm glad. So, Microsoft + KC = true. Well, I happily welcome this marriage, since an alliance with one of the greatest companies in our world, and one of the most well-known trademarks is always a good thing unless they start to abuse you. I doubt that Microsoft really thinks of KC as either dangerous or worth to abuse, but rather as a marketing tool, and believe me, Microsoft wants to have good marketing, which they get this way. So, it takes umpteen hours to download it, the download gets cancelled 708754 times per night you stay up to watch the download, and it costs 26872456729 dollars, yen or pounds on your phone bill. Sorry for you guys, but since I'm an ignorant bastard I can tell you I laughed when I had downloaded the file and installed the media player, coz it went on less then 10 minutes. I downloaded the whole KCLIM in 6 minutes. OK, I've got cable connection to a university network, which is probably one of the fastest in Sweden, but I suppose you guess I have a bit hard to see why all these complaints has arosen when King Crimson once again does something shocking and also once more releases some "rare" live or "bootleg" stuff. I guess DMG kinda knows that KC is a very love-or-hate-band and thus, all their fans are hardcore fans, and will probably get all the stuff they release, but you aren't forced to get it. Get a grip man! If it's too expensive for a recording of a show you already have five bootleg copies of, dont' get the official bootleg. Buy what you want and not just to fill up your King Crimson collection, unless you really want to and find it worth the money. So please, please, please stop complaining when King Crimson releases something new or old, coz one day they'll stop doing so, since everybody's just complaining, and that's nothing that encourages them, or makes DMG feel good. On the opposite, when not only the press ignores them, but their "Hardcore fans" just gives them dozens of loads of shit there sure appears a risk that DMG listens to the fans - as is their purpose, and just calls it a day, and pulls Crimson with them in the fall. Let's see who regrets their complaints then! So Long live this direction to supply music for "free" via the web. /Macahan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:28:26 -0400 From: "Michael J. Bennett" Subject: Concert Ok, I'm one of these ET'ers who is having download troubles with the concert. Can anyone make me a cd-r of it, please? I can offer cash or a nice painting in exchange. Thanks! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:26:24 -0400 From: Peter Lazarevich Subject: crimson concert Hello. I would like to download the '96 Mexico City concert for King Crimson but the download web site gives an error. Can you help us? Pete ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 19:49:11 +0100 From: nigel proctor Subject: Macs 'N' Mex. One for the techies. For us Macs, left out in the cold, consider......would one of the Virtual PC progs.,loaded on a Mac, ( with Windows and Media Player running) be able to download and play 'Live in Mexico City' ?? Just a thought, or is this thread dead? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 01:54:30 +0100 From: "mark pearman" Subject: A Topical Joke!? A helicopter was flying around above Seattle yesterday when an electrical malfunction disabled all of the aircraft's electronic navigation and communication equipment. Due to the clouds and haze the pilot could not determine his position or course to steer to the airport. The pilot saw a tall building, flew toward it, circled, drew a hand-written sign and held it in the helicopter's window. The sign said "WHERE AM I ?" in large letters. People in the tall building quickly responded to the aircraft, drew a large sign and held it in a building window. Their sign said, "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER." The pilot smiled, waved, looked at his map and determine the course to steer to SEATAC (Seattle/Tacoma) airport and landed safely. After they were on the ground, the co-pilot asked the pilot how the "YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER" sign helped determine their position. The pilot responded, "I knew that had to be the MICROSOFT building because they'd gave me a technically correct but completely useless answer." ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #611 ********************************