Elephant Talk #607 (as text)

17 August 1999

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:12:27 EDT
From: DanKirkd at aol dot com
Subject: NEWS: Live in Mexico City available for download from DGM

All Disciplinarians(!) who have been awaiting the release of King Crimson
Live in Mexico City can now download it from the DGM website at
http://license.keyconnect.com/wm/dgm/.  Go there today! It's free for a
limited time only and will not be available in any other format.

DGM has entered into a strategic relationship with Microsoft to launch
BootlegTV.com, which starting November will offer concerts online on a pay
per view basis.  All the new KC shows, plus archives, will be available for
download.  Full news about BootlegTV.com can be found at the above URL, and
in the press release at

Dan Kirkdorffer
On behalf of DGM - Enjoy!

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:55:28 EDT
From: DanKirkd at aol dot com
Subject: NEWS: A response from DGM to those who query DGMlive's involvement with
Here is a message from David S. at DGM  -  Dan


A response to those who query DGMlive's involvement with Microsoft.

The launch of DGMlive is announced as a "strategic relationship" with
Microsoft. It is not a business partnership. DGMlive remains an independent
company, in which Microsoft neither has nor has requested any holdings. Our
relationship is simply that we have undertaken to use Microsoft technology,
because it is the best currently available.

It is our understanding that before the end of the year the Media 4.0
technology will work on all platforms. It is currently the best system for
our purposes both in terms of audio quality and the Digital Rights
Management system, which will ensure that the artists are properly rewarded
for their work.

Those who question the fact that we are using a music delivery system
developed by a large multi national, should look at the current music
carriers, CD and cassette. Both of these were developed and licensed ( if
my memory serves me correctly ) by Phillips, yet another large
multinational.  Yet no one questions our use of these technologies.

The key issue is not the content carrier ( whether it be CD or Media 4.0 ),
but the ownership of the content itself. Copyright in the music resides, as
always, with the artist.

Microsoft, unlike their competitors, were willing to put time and energy
into helping launch this project. They also have developed a technology
that we will enable us to offer fans a whole range of music that would
otherwise rot away in the archives. Our relationship with Microsoft is
entirely non contractual , and beneficial to all those involved, including
the fans.

David Singleton  18 Aug 1999.


Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:20:37 +0200
From: David Restrepo <santi at club-internet dot fr>
Subject: sound scapes
I have to say that the soundscapes are the best means to relax, read, do
the dishes, tidy up the house and above all to seek inspiration. Mr.  Fripp
has given us a treasure of immesurable grandiosity. The more I listen to
Fripp & the Crimson related music the more I like it. Mr.  Fripp has given
us more than we could ever imagine. I started to listen to Crimson at the
end of the 70's with that oustanding compilation of the young persons guide
to king crimson and ever since I've been struggling to get articles,
records, CD's and pirate recordings. But this avalanche of Crimson music
and information about Mr.Fripp & Crimson that we're experiencing at the end
of this decade is nothing that I would have ever imagined before. This is a
dream come through. Thanks to Mr. Fripp & the whole team at Discipline
mobile and Elephant Talk.

David Restrepo.

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:28:21 -0400
From: "Robert Y. Gray" <tel1byg at njcmail dot ups dot com>
Subject: Really a KC song ????
    I was scanning through amazon.com today and I came across a listing
for a compilation CD called "A Brief History of Ambient Music" -- The
Music of Changes....Vol. 3.  On Disk 2 (Song 5) of the set is a song
titled:  Nuages (That Which Passes, Passes Like Clouds) with the artist
being King Crimson.  I was just curious what this song might be.  (Could
it be a ProjeKCts song ?)  I've never heard this song mentioned anywhere
in any capacity relating to Crimson.  It could be a mistype on
amazon.com's part but there are other songs on the CD credited
specifically to Robert Fripp and Sylvan so it doesn't seem likely that
it is a mistake.   If anyone knows anything please just post your
answers to the newsletter.


Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:31:37 -0400
From: Donna Beane <xanadu at Infinet dot com>
Subject: ProjeKcts!!??
      My name is Ben Burton and I'm a Crimson fan! I am currently a
member of the DMG club and I have a question. Please forgive my
ignorance, but, could you explain what the different projeKcts are?
I'm familar with one and two, but, I've read about zero,and three? What
are they and where can I purchase them? Also I have three videos from
the "80's" & "90's" is there anyway of getting footage of older Crimson?
Thankyou for your time.
                          Ben Burton

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:02:40 -0700
From: "Jon Green" <jgreen at i-cafe dot net>
Subject: re: The Devil's Triangle
Jacek Czajka wrote:

>"Devil's Triangle, The (1974)

 >Cast  Vincent Price        ....    Narrator (voice)

 >Original music by   Robert Fripp (as King Crimson) "

>Has anyone seen this movie?

I saw this at a drive-in movie theater probably in 1974-75. It is a very
poor documentary meant to cash in on, then current, interest in the Bermuda
Triangle. It probably shared the bill with a horror movie or two (one of
those American International productions, no doubt). Already being a devout
King Crimson fan, I began watching the film very intently when KC's music
appeared, in the belief that it probably indicated a unique and high
quality production. I was wrong. I don't remember Vincent Price's narration
but I do remember KC's Devil Triangle accompanying endless shots of
swimming fish (possibly in an aquarium). Not an ounce of imagination or
effort went into the production of this film which even skimps on the
expected stock footage of boats and airplanes. Also, The Devil's Triangle
is the only music used in the film, so the above cite would be more
accurate if it read "Original music by Gustav Holst". I would not expect to
see this dismal excuse for a documentary re-released but it might be a good
candidate for Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Jon Green
Promenade the Puzzle: The Poetic Vision of Peter Sinfield

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:20:43 -0500
From: John Barnas <barnasm at marietta dot edu>
Subject: Future KC - no candy?
With the recent discussion about Adrian's beatlesque vocals on Thrak, and
more of the ongoing chit chat about Heartbeat I thought I'd pipe in with
some of my own mindpoop. I like Adrian's voice and love everything on
Discipline. I've always sorta cringed about the "talk" on Thela Hun
Gingeet. It's time to face reality. KC is never gonna get a "commercial
hit" with Adrian's vocals. My feeling is that is what was attempted with
"Dinosaur" and maybe "People". I can live with all of Adrian's KC vocals. I
love his vocal on Matte Kudasai and Walking on Air. But it's time to take
the leap. Robert hinted at a direction toward electronica.  This told me
that although the fractals were creating new sounds, Robert understands
that the product may remain uniquely Crimson, but maybe he could turn on
some yout's out there and sell alot of units. Yes you read it: uniquely,
yout's and units. What the heck am I getting at? Here it is. Adrian's
vocals, in the style he has formerly presented, should no longer be a part
of King Crimson. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Any Adrian
vocals (of the same style(s)) in the future will sound like rehash. It's
over. I love Adrian's solo stuff and he is a very warm personal guy.
Revelation was stirring during the ProjeKcts but broke through when I
listened to Bill Rieflin's Birth of a Giant. Seriously, if this CD was
titled King Crimson, Birth of a Giant I would have been pleased to find a
place for it in KC evolution. Call me crazy. Ask me what I'm smokin'.  But
the Rieflin stuff, (with Bob and Trey on there, if you didn't know) fits
between Thrak and now, with ProjeKct elements woven in. And I like Bill's
vocals. They "fit" the music. I'm not saying that KC should strive at a
commercial hit. I'm not saying Bill should sing for KC. But you all know
where we are standing. We know that Robert is working on the next "period".
There are alot of thirsty ears out there besides us Crimsonics. I believe
the next Crimson could very well be freaky enough for many, many new ears
to dig, and damn it, it should be! (dare I say, "better be" ?)
 I love you Adrian but  let your guitar (and V-drums) sing.

- discuss-


Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:12:16 PDT
From: "Nomad Stem" <nomad_stem at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Snore...
In ET #606 Jesse (aka Catherine) Pellegrini wrote:

"How come the KC never plays any old hits.  I just want to know.  I saw
them in concert last May and they won't play any. Not even Red."

This followed a lament (pun intended) about the 72-74 band not using the
Mellotron much.

Seems like Jesse, like many others here, is so stuck in the past that he
can't even differentiate the last time they saw the band from the present
("last May").

Come on folks.  King Crimson is moving ahead with a promised new incarnation
building off of 2 years of ProjeKct R&D, and rather than discuss issues
about the present, we continue to wallow in the past about things no one can
do anything about anyway.  If the 72-74 band didn't use the Mellotron much
(which is up for debate given Cross and Fripp played the Mellotron live) so

It saddens me that so many more interesting topics of discussion continue to
be ignored.  I recognize many here are discovering the older releases for
the first time, but please remember when these came out (25 years ago and
more), and spare us the analysis of how this or that should have happened,
and try to focus on the present.  Otherwise it will all pass us by.


Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:05:36 -0400
From: "Joseph A. Popp" <PoppDodson at compuserve dot com>
Subject: Mandrake Memorial
Does anyone have a copy of Mandrake Memorial's album from the early
seventies?  I REALLY want to get a copy of it.  It featured Craig Anderton
on guitar.  Craig wrote the Electronic Projects for Musicians books which
show how to make your own stomp boxes and guitar mods, etc.  Please reply
to Poppdodson at compuserve dot com.  I'd be happy to trade cassettes.  I've got a
boot of KC live at the Greek Theatre Berkeley CA from the Beat tour.
(Don't tell Robert)

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 09:37:23 -0400
From: "Jay Tracy" <jtracy at rics dot bwh dot harvard dot edu>
Subject: the new deleted UK live CD
 For those who have missed the boat on finding the newly released/deleted
 U.K. live CD (1978, w/ Bruford), there is one now on eBay.

Auction #146395332



Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:14:02 EDT
From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com
Subject: re: King Velvets
Michael Flaherty wrote:

>By the way, Cale and Fripp have never played on the same track (anywhere)

Check the credits for "Golden Hours" on _Another Green World_.

Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:04:03 EDT
From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com
Subject: re: You Burn Me Up
flori at vt dot edu wrote:

>I was looking at the Exposure
>pages for a track by track listing, and it listed Daryl Hall as the
>vocalist on "You Burn Me Up I'm a Cigarette". Maybe I'm not
>stretching my ear enough, but the vocal really doesn't sound like
>his voice at all. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

The vocal on "You Burn Me Up" certainly doesn't sound like any of the Hall &
Oates hits I've (reluctantly) heard over the years, but it is very much of a
piece with the sound of Hall's Fripp-produced solo album, _Sacred Songs_.  In
fact, the recent CD reissue of _Sacred Songs_ includes "You Burn Me Up" and
Hall's other track from _Exposure_, "North Star," as bonus tracks.  (It
strikes me as odd to include recordings that are readily available elsewhere
as bonus tracks, but like the man said, "Whaddya want for nothin'...a rubber
biscuit?")  Fripp's production style throughout the album involves treating
Hall's voice with massive amounts of reverb, and while the results don't
sound at all like Hall & Oates, I'm frequently reminded of Todd
Rundgren--must be a Philly thang.  Any Fripp/Crimso fans wondering whether
_Sacred Songs_ is worth picking up should be advised that Fripp is all over
it, and while it's primarily a rock 'n' roll album, its ties to _Exposure_
are strong and obvious.

Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew

Date: 14 Aug 99 07:26:24 +0000
From: "Kim Fyson" <kim at vidcul dot u-net dot com>
Subject: Re: Japanese video
In reply to Christin Skinna's defence of the Live in Japan video I have to
say that I too am a "video artist" and there can be no artistic
justification (however avante-garde or strange your taste)  for what was
simply a very badly made video.  Budget doesn't come into it, nor does artist
style. It was just inept.

Kim Fyson

14-Aug-99 07:21:23

Tel: 01223 313126   Mobile: 0403 619270
Web Site: http://www.vidcul.u-net.com

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:14:14 -0400
From: "Darin G" <dcg at gobi dot com>
Subject: Exposure
   Yes, that really is Daryl Hall on Exposure. If you love that one you may
want to get Daryl's solo release from 1977, produced and played on by
Fripp, and just released on cd.
   Speaking of Exposure, does anyone know if it will be remastered again also?


Date: 14 Aug 99 13:33:32 EDT
From: James Dusewicz <campaigner at usa dot net>
Subject: Re: Song References..KC/Zappa
Perhaps my prior posts on the inclusion of snippets of songs within songs
was misunderstood. On ITWOP a snippet of ITCOTCK(directly off the vinyl
copy) is inserted in "The Devil's triange"; as is a snippet of "The Sounds
of Silence" in Simon & Garfunkle's "Save The Life Of My Child" off of their
BOOKENDS album.  These snippets are directly from the vinyl(you can hear
the clicks & pops of ITCOTCK reference.

While FZ does do a lot of recycling of musical ideas "The Adventures Of
Greggary Peckkery" comes to mind, they are played real time and are an
organic part of those songs.  Or they are retitled: see "Holiday In Berlin"
on LUMPY GRAVY as "The Semi-Fraudulent Hollywood Overture" on 200 MOTELS.
There are many more that are part of FZ's Conceptual Continuity theme.  The
above insertions in the first paragraph I consider in-organic and detract
from the song's listening pleasure.

As for VU influence on KC? Yes the VU influenced an awful lot of bands and
their genre is related to the genre KC operates in.  It isn't hard to
recognize the Zappa influence on KC. Zappa and the VU were doing pretty
nearly the same things.  If a coin analogy could be used the VU was heads
and Zappa was tails of the same continuum of the genre.  Of course by the
time of LOADED, Fripp had matured into his own style, but listen to THE
song constructions had no affect on RF.


campaigner at usa dot net

James Dusewicz

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:52:30 -0700
From: "Joseph Carona" <jcarona at sunamerica dot com>
Subject: Indonesian Crimson (?)
Well, folks this is actually my first post (although I've been enjoying the
discussions for a while now).

I'm a long time fan of Crimson, but relatively new to Fripp's solo
releases.  My question is about an unusual tape I came across about ten
years ago. A friend of mine came back from a trip to Indonesia, with an
import cassette for me. The rtape is the Indonesian release of Discipline
(released on the "Yess" Records label of Indonesia).

Oddly enough "Yess Records" logo is a mirror image silouette of Brufor
behind his kit (circa 1971 with Yes - weird).  Anyway, the cassette
contains the Discipline album (albeit with a resequenced track order, and
six bonus tracks.) Here's where it gets curious...  The bonus tracks
include "Inductive Resonance" and several tracks from the League of
Gentlemen album.  The other two are quite puzzling to me, I have long
wondered if they are available on any other Fripp or Crimson release. One
is simply a series of soundbites from interview which begins with a
narrative about how "the following is meant to be taken as a way of life";
a recorded discussion then declares that "rock & roll is about F***ing";
and "How do I dance to this music? Close. Very very close. You feel the
music in your pelvis."  Further soundbites of a woman's orgasm and sirens
whaling follow. Anyone heard this before? Where can it be found. Lastly,
another bonus track on the disc sounds like a Fripp (?) guitar solo during
a rehearsal or soundcheck with occassional synthesizer crashing sounds
layered over it.  Any info would be appreciated.

Joe Carona
Jcarona at Sunamerica dot com

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:12:17 -0000
From: "Jim McLaughlin" <spunky at blast dot net>
Subject: Fan expectations?
 In Elephant-talk # 606 Jesse Pellegrini wrote:

>Fripp said that it was a pain to use but you have to
>be able to live up to expectations for fans.

I can not believe that the name Fripp was used in this sentance.



Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:12:57 EDT
From: SydRoms at aol dot com
Subject: Fripp and an Odd Film
I'm new to the list, so if this has been covered already I apologize before

Last night i saw a Vincent Gallo film, Buffalo '66, and lo and behold the
movie featured a number of progressive tunes. The one directly related to KC
and co. was "Moonchild" which was used as a very interesting cut into
character development for Layla, the female lead played by Christina Ricci.
Other cool tracks used in the film include two Yes numbers. "Heart of the
Sunrise" helps build the movie up very well at the climax, where the main
character is on a mission. "Sweetness" is the title of the other, which is a
very seldom heard track from their debut. This was used at the end, which I
won't talk about in fear of ruining it. However, my main reason of bringing
it up is I figured this film would be of interest to those of you into
Crimson. The use of "Moonchild" gives an interesting look at a great song.
The movie, i will warn you, is a bit odd. I thought it was brilliant, but i
would understand if others of you saw it otherwise.

Tim Clark

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:15:45 EDT
From: kevin p cook <bj412 at juno dot com>
Subject: Absent Lovers
The 73-74 KC line up will always be my personal favorite. That's one of the
reasons I have had trouble accepting the 80's line up until I picked up
"Absent Lovers". This band did have the power of the
Fripp/Wetton/Bruford/Cross line up and finesse to boot.That reading of
"Larks Tongues" smokes. It's remarkable that these recordings stayed in the
can so long. A word about John Wetton "Live in New York". Ian McDonalds
contribution on Easy Money makes this CD worthwhile, however the recording
sounds as if it were miked from the audience.


Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:06:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: flaherty michael w <z946128 at rice dot farm dot niu dot edu>
Subject: Cale and Fripp Correction: Golden Hours
I have been reminded by someone calling his or herself the Elephant Shrew
(Is that you Eb?  It certainly SOUNDS like you :)) that Fripp and John
Cale do indeed play on one TRACK together: Eno's "Golden Hours" (from
"Another Green World"--I even made a note of this on the cassette copy of
my LP; clearly, the memory is fading).  While I appreciate the factual
correction, it does not change anything else I said in my post: knowing
Eno's methods of working, it is very unlikely (although I cannnot
be certain) that Fripp and Cale played "together"--they probably didn't
even record on  the same day.  Either way, the session occurred long after
Fripp's philosophy of playing was well established.

Michael Flaherty

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:14:31 +0700
From: "Dave Lumenta" <dlumenta at indosat dot net dot id>
Subject: CC #5-6 On Broadway review
Just received the On Broadway package.

My comments:
1. Sounds better than the sterile & heavily compressed B'Boom CD.
2. Frame by Frame somewhat sloppy (but that's the reason we joined the CC,
right ?)
3. Thela Hun Ginjeet lacking the 'boobams' groove of the 80s version (eg: in
Absent Lovers)
4. A very effective Talking Drum (short but very rich)
5. Great Pat - Bill duets (like on Prisms)
6. A magnificent Indiscipline. Just about the time I'm beginning to feel
bored of all other versions of it (Discipline, TOPP Live In Japan video,
Frejus version, Absent Lovers), this version has regained my interest. Here
it seems to be their own parody of
the song (Adrian singing the first lines in a rush). Bruford is the ultimate
humorist here, being the perfect partner for Belew's elephantosity. At
least, it proves that this gloomy 90s edition still retaines the shiny humor
and mobility of the 80s edition.


Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:35:39 -0400
From: "Matt Talbot" <moses at access995 dot com>
Subject: Playstation/Youth
        I think the playstation game could be fun, though I don't own one
and am not a big fan of fighting games.  But Adrian could have the Whammy
Bar of Death, which can of course morph him into a thousand different
animals, including an elephant...

        Next, and I know I'm just asking for rebukes and sinister looks from
lots of folks with this one, but I think some KC listeners might enjoy Sonic
Youth.  I know, you're saying, 'First they say we should listen to Tool, now
Sonic Youth?  What's next, the Spice Girls?'  But bear with me.  Sonic Youth
are a New York based band who loves alternate guitar tunings, dissonance,
and reworking/improvising live.  Sure, they're not considered virtuosos,
except where feedback is concerned, but they're decent.  People who put them
down haven't listened close enough to hear Lee Ranaldo's gorgeous
countermelodies behind the vocals, a la 'Sugar Kane'.  And lately, their
songwriting has gotten downright poetic, on newer gems such as 'The Diamond
Sea' or 'Wildflower Soul.'  As for the music, I don't think theirs is any
more challenging to listen to than THRaKaTTaK or some of the ProjeKCt stuff.
Sure, odd meters and polyrhythms are few and far between, and no mellotron,
but those are hardly reasons not to give a band a try.

        Now, I'll sit back and just wait for the vitriol.

moses at tmbg dot org

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:57:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Tanigawa <tanigawa at cadence dot com>
Subject: RE: mellotron usage during mid 70's
>I've noticed on a lot of the mid 70's on the Great Deciever box
>set the mollotron was largely ignored.

>Where was the mellotron in the '73-'74 line up?  I don't hear it as evident
>as some say it is.  I think the only time they used it was for the song
>Starless and possibly nightwatch.

The mellotron is used quite extensively on the material from this era.  On
"GD" and "Nightwatch" it also appears on "Exiles", "Talking Drum", "Trio", and
a number of improvisational interludes.

I cannot think of any KC album on which the mellotron figured prominently on
every song.  However it was used whenever appropriate, and to great effect.
I'll agree with what someone said awhile ago:  "No one uses a mellotron like
King Crimson".

>One more question.  How come the KC never plays any old hits.  I just want to
>know.  I saw them in concert last May and they won't play any. Not even Red.
>Just answer me that question and I'll be satisified.  When you compose a song
>shouldnt you want to play it just because it's fun to play?

"KC on Broadway 1995" has a relatively recent configuration playing "Red",
"Talking Drum", and "LTIA part 2".  This version of "Red" sounds just as good
as the original to me.

Maybe they are just tired of playing the same songs year in and year out.
That would be understandable.


Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:59:22 EDT
From: Bknt at aol dot com
Subject: Norbert Fragg: Happy at Last!
Dear Team,

In my decreasing effort to present the purloined thoughts, knots, bon-mots
and slop pots of that insurmountable but not unpronouncible guitarist,
Norbert Fragg, I have discarded much that is unmentionable, unconscionable
and merely recherche.

I have no explanation as to why the following passage resisted disposal. It
is possible that my kitchen In-Sink-Erator has ceased to function. It is also
possible that Mr. Fragg's ineffably depraved twaddle caused my
chromium-plated plughole to constrict and otherwise gag.


Efforts continue from individuals who shall remain nameless, if only for the
naming of such individuals requires that they retain the copyright in their
work, and that, as a controlling and venal leader, it is my name that becomes
the aim to retain blame in a game based on deception, theft and limericks
rhyming with the distant Scottish town of Fraggish, though it may be inferred
that I am not Scottish nor was meant to be--we Fraggs are originally French,
as my great, great, great, great, great and then, not-so-great grandfather,
De Rigeur Fragg insisted before he was disembowled, beheaded, flatted and
sharped for refusing to give an autograph to His Magesty the Queen Edward II.
Thus, a name can pertain to a process in which on-going matters acquire, if
not require, if not suspire, if not re-wire, the attention of more than one
individual, namely, myself.

For those of insufficient mental capacity to grasp the plangent intricacies
of the previous passage,  your thrush-watching, paint-splotching leader
submits to cybervisitors the joyous news that the woeful financial
difficulties of the small, independent record company and tea-and-cappuccino
dispensory known as Insipid Foaming Bile, are hereby forever banished, thanks
to a decision by that peerless craftsman, brilliant artist and sadly
misunderstood American genius, Kenny G, to release his latest work with IFB
Records. Thus, your needy but not greedy leader vibrates with anticipation
for the launching of G Whiz, a gala two-CD set on which this humble guitarist
contributes a groundscape loop.

To celebrate this important document of fin de icesickle mass culture, Mr. G,
in the company of the famed Sufi financial planner and enthusiast of western
business practice, Sheik Rattul En Roll, has suggested a collaborative
venture in the form of a theme park franchise to be built atop a scenic
promontory in the quaintly crapulous village of Itching Drawers,
Lacklustershire. I have spent most of the morning giving due consideration to
the names of the numerous attractions planned for the park. The list, which
is subject to object, if not project, includes the Red Nightmare roller
coaster, the Tight Scrummy Interactive Adventure,  Dr. Diamond's Merry
Underground Train, the Wall on Which the Profits Float gift shop, the Dancing
Puppets Revue, the Great Deceiver Souvenir Kiosk (selling cigarettes, ice
cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary...), the Sartori in Tangerine Juice Bar,
Vrooom B'Boom dodge-'em cars, a Wake Up Poseidon raft course, a PerkyerCirkus
Coffee Shoppe, the Ladies of the Road Hotel, What a Perfect Mess art gallery,
and, of special interest to nostalgic enthusiasts, the Starless Exhibition
Hall, in which the wax effigies of numerous musicians who never became famous
shine, shine, depicted in their prime.

The task remains to name the park. I have suggested Fraggland, or, a less
humble variant, FraggWorld. Though I have mentioned to Mr. G that the title
he favors has been released by me in audible form at so many opportunities
that it is in danger of becoming more than ironic, he insists that the park
reflect the spirit in which brain deadening masterpieces of mass produced
monotony reach out and touch someone, anyone, everyone with disposable income.

And so we ask all contributors to the kvetchbook, as well as those who have
blessed me with their silence, to meet Mr. G and myself at the grand opening
of Easy Money, where everyone can buy a thrill. We will provide autographs
with any in-store purchase, and pose for photographs suitable for framing.

I look forward to the habit of happiness and trust that I shall forget the
years I sought something I better that had no name.

Bill Kent

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Tanigawa <tanigawa at cadence dot com>
Subject: RE: Devils Triangle - The Movie
> "Devil's Triangle, The (1974)
> Cast  Vincent Price        ....    Narrator (voice)
> Original music by   Robert Fripp (as King Crimson) "
>Has anyone saw this movie?

This is a documentary about the disappearances of ships and aircraft in a
region of the north Atlantic known as the Bermuda Triangle.

Only fragments of "The Devil's Triangle" (from "In the Wake of Poseidon")
appear in the film.  There is no other music by KC to my best recollection.

The movie probably does not contain the frightful "wow" sound found on
the cd and later vinyl pressings of the album.


Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:54:45 +0300
From: Haapa Ilkka <ilkka dot haapa at osuuspankki dot fi>
Subject: RF and John Cale

In ET#606 Michael Flaherty wrote:

>By the way, Cale and Fripp have never played on the same track

In fact they did; on Eno's Another Green World's piece Golden Hours
Fripp plays beautiful guitar solo and John Cale plays viola at the end
of the tune.
And i'm sure that some other hawk-eyed ETer has noticed this too... :-)

Ilkka Haapa
Helsinki, Finland
email: ilkka dot haapa at kolumbus dot fi

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:59:38 PDT
From: "Rafael Di Liumbard Jr." <izaac_lassila at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Mellotron
Steve Lukather (TOTO) uses the Mellotron on his latest album "Luke",
and let's not forget that even Chicago used the mellotron especially on
their seventh album, a supposed more "jazzy" record.
But it seems to me that those not "art-rock" use the mellotron more for
effect then for the music. It never gets as good as those mellotron choirs
Mellotron for all music...

Rafael Di Liumbard

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:50:53 EDT
From: Mrkndrew at aol dot com
Subject: "I Talk to the Wind" melody
First, Thanks to Toby and all on the ET staff for all their efforts.  I
really do appreciate the newsletter and web site.

In E.T. # 606 Lina asked for help with the melody for I Talk to the Wind.
I can help her out, but when I responded by private e-mail, it was returned
to me.  Lina, if you still need that melody, please contact me with your
snail-mail address and I will help you.  Meanwhile, keep playing!

Mark Stansbery

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:06:20 EDT
From: JAdams7866 at aol dot com
Subject: B.L.U.E. 4-18-98 Knitting Factory
Does anyone have the set list for the B.L.U.E. Knitting Factory Show on
4-18-98.  I sure would appreciate it.

jadams7866 at aol dot com

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:00:24 -0400
From: David Todd <dtodd at bbn dot com>
Subject: Re: Playing Old songs in concert
>present in the '69'-'72 era.  One more question.  How come the KC never
>plays any old hits.  I just want to know.  I saw them in concert last May
>and they won't play any. Not even Red.  Just answer me that question and
>I'll be satisified.  When you compose a song shouldn't you want to play it
>just because it's fun to play?

You saw King Crimson in concert last May? I wasn't aware they were touring.
Are you sure it wasn't a ProjeKCt?

If you see the (circa) 1995 Live in Japan video, you'll note they played Red,
Talking Drum and Larks Tongues in Aspic Part II.

Anything is possible, some things are likely, few are consistent.

Indeed, if you compose a song, you might want to play it. KC have composed
many songs, and indeed, it would takes hours to play them all. Choices must be
made. And the factors must be taken into account. And so they are.

Hacksaw = David Charles Todd
BBN Technologies = Hacksaw's Employer
Hacksaw's Opinions != BBN Technologies' Opinions
Linux understands you.

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:28:19 -0400
From: "Snow, Rick" <Rick dot Snow at medaphis dot com>
Subject: Dutch Radio--Fripp on Sept. 6th
Can any of our Dutch friends translate this for us and find out when on the
6th this will be webcast?

R. Snow (who is totally entranced by On Broadway)

   Een avond met Robert Fripp

   Dit jaar bestaat King Crimson 30 jaar. Sinds 1969 speelt de in London
   Karmozijnrode Koning een vorm van eigenzinnige rockmuziek, waarin op
   manier en lang voordat het modern werd invloeden van jazz, Europese impro
en 20ste eeuwse
   gecomponeerde muziek verwerkt zijn. Belangrijkste man in de groep -al zal
hij dat zelf
   nadrukkelijk ontkennen, want KC is voor hem niet zomaar een groep, het is
"a way of doing
   things" waarbij het geheel meer is dan de som der delen- is
meestergitarist Robert Fripp.

   De geschiedenis van King Crimson is niet alleen vanwege het jubileum
actueel. Na jarenlang
   juridisch getouwtrek heeft Fripp de knellende banden van KC met het label
waaraan de groep
   jarenlang verbonden was, EG Records, weten te verbreken en is hij een
eigen platenlabel,
   Discipline Global Mobile, gestart. DGM wil niet alleen een model zijn hoe
in de volgens Fripp
   op bedrog, uitbuiting en hebzucht gebaseerde muziekindustrie ook anders
dan op exploiterende
   wijze zaken gedaan kan worden, tevens biedt het label de mogelijkheid
louter artistieke
   uitgangspunten te hanteren voor nieuwe releases. In de woorden van DGM
zelf: "to bring music
   into the world which would otherwise be unlikely to do so, or under
conditions prejudicial to the
   music and/or musicians."

   Sindsdien zijn naast platen van musici die door Fripp zijn uitverkoren
een aanzienlijk aantal
   live-opnamen van verschillende KC-edities uitgebracht. Deze onderstrepen
niet alleen het
   unieke en baanbrekende karakter van de groep, ze maken tevens een
gedetailleerde reflectie op
   de ontwikkeling van de band mogelijk. En dat is precies wat we in
Supplement vanavond en in
   een tweede uitzending later dit jaar willen doen: de ontwikkeling van KC
volgen aan de hand
   van een gesprek met lid-van-het-eerste-uur Robert Fripp.

   Bas Andriessen zocht de enigmatische musicus op in zijn woonplaats nabij
Salisbury, een kleine
   honderd kilometer ten zuidwesten van Londen. In de uitzending van
vanavond zal het gaan over
   de jaren 1969 - 1980. Drie edities van King Crimson zien in die periode
het licht, voordat Fripp
   in 1974 door de business gedesillusioneerd besluit de muziek definitief
te verlaten en zich aan te
   sluiten bij een leefgemeenschap die de ideeen van de Russische mysticus
Gurdjieff en diens
   adept J.G. Bennett in praktijk probeert te brengen. Gelouterd vestigt
Fripp zich daarna in New
   York, nog zonder een idee hoe de toekomst zich voor hem moet ontvouwen.
Uiteindelijk keert
   Fripp door uitnodigingen van o.a. David Bowie en Talking Heads terug in
de muziek om op hun
   platen als gitarist bijdragen te leveren, en maakt hij in 1979 zijn
eerste soloplaat "Exposure". Als
   we in een volgende uitzending de draad in 1980/1981 oppakken is een
nieuwe editie van King
   Crimson een feit. De kijk van Fripp op muziekmaken is dan inmiddels
radicaal veranderd.
   Denkt hij tot 1981 als de meeste (westerse) muzikanten dat het de musicus
is die de muziek
   maakt, daarna zal zijn complete werk gebaseerd zijn op het inzicht dat de
muziek de musicus
   bespeelt en de uitvoerenden "slechts" medium zijn. Maar daarover dus
later dit jaar meer.

   In beide uitzendingen zal het leeuwendeel van de muziek bestaan uit
live-opnamen. Want King
   Crimson was en is toch vooral een live band. Fripp omschreef het in 1991
zelf als volgt: "Studio
   and live are two worlds. Would you, the audience, prefer to have a love
letter or a hot date?
   Each have their value. Crimson were always the band for a hot date. From
time to time they
   could write a love letter too, but for me they were better in the
clinches. Sometimes it's like
   angels descending from the clouds on chariots of fire, blowing trumpets
of gold in your ear.
   Baby Blue, I was there."

   Supplement wordt vanavond gemaakt door Bas Andriessen, Co de Kloet en

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:38:54 +0400 (MSD)
From: "Roman Sklyarov" <asu at roadcommittee dot spb dot su>
Subject: Russificated King Crimson
Hi dear ETers.

Crimheads from Russia are greeting you all.

I have prepared a book called "Russificated King Crimson" consisting of the
KC' history, complete translation of lyrics into Russian (what a titanic
work) and Russian-based discography. Now I'm trying to publish it.

By the way, can anybody explain me what does the "prism ship" means (from
"In the Court of the Crimson King"). I'll be very grateful for the help.

If somebody wants to contact me, please better use the fax. My phone/fax
numbers are: home 007 812 2913376; office 007 812 2515011.

Best regards
Vladimir Kalnitsky, Saint Petersburg RU
asu at roadcommittee dot spb dot su

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:14:59 -0700
From: Paulo Henrique Leocadio <paulohl at microsoft dot com>
Subject: King Crimson in Germany 1973

I have two CDs from that period. One, live in Italy (late october '73) and
the other, live in Germany (Early november '73). I have only a light idea
about the actual date since KC played 4 days in Germany in '73 (according to
the KC files).

You are absolutely right: first and probably second tunes are from a recent
post '82 KC incarnation, the rest of the concert is really live in Germany.

> Paulo H. Leocadio

Date: Tue, Aug 17 1999 12:21:52 GMT-0400
From: manoel at mail dot pinkfloyd dot com
Subject: Attention Brazilian ETers!

I tried to send this posting in Portuguese, but, as you all know, English
is the universal language, so I'm sending it back in English.

A month ago I started a "local chapter" of ETers in Brasil, hoping to start
a discussion group about music, specially Brazilian music. Considering
Eters as people who like not only King Crimson music, but good music in
general, and that they have a critical taste which follows a certain logic,
I thought of them as a good starting group.

I'm creating a web page for this purpose; if you have any topic about music
(musical taste and musical options - no music theory allowed!!) you'd like
to discuss with other people, or if you have any suggestions for the page,
send them to one of my e-mail addresses:

manoelzappa at zipmail dot com dot br


manoel at pinkfloyd dot com

Stay tuned!

Manoel Maria Jr.

Date: 17 Aug 99 12:42:14 -0700
From: "David Voci" <david_voci at tcibr dot com>
Subject: Mellotron Spotted in Soundgarden
Hello Friends,

A couple quick points from a travel weary gemini...Again would like to
compliment Epitaph's release and even though the material on discs 3 and 4
is a bit muddy, the material is refreshing seeing that most of the songs
are non lp Crimson songs, some melodies that went on to become real, LP
versions under different names are present though(Pictures of a City, for

I really like the pseudo jazzy nature of the first line-up. Ian McDonald
shows some cool flute/sax playing on this first incarnation and Fripp's
style is pretty straightforward here. There are some long workouts on these
discs and even an 18+ minute rendition of Drop In which is quite
impressive. The versions of Mars throughout show some pretty trancey
mellotron playing.  Great Deceiver, the box set, seems to have many places
where mellotron shows up and becomes David Cross's other instrument in lieu
of violin.

As far as Mellotron goes, yes indeed a great keyboard instrument and a song
in which this really jumps out at the listener called 'Mailman' on
Soundgarden's Superunknown LP is a superb showing for this device.  This
was a surprise hearing this, but at the same time a real treat...the
ethereal nature of the 'Tron has been captured here in all it's glory.  On
this topic I would like to add to a comment a few issues back where a
reader wrote about Matching Mole's first LP and Mellotron usage...while 'Oh
Caroline' might feature this instrument to a degree, the real swan song on
this album is the last track called 'Immediate Curtain' where the 'tron is
center stage...a very deep/mellotron laced affair and pretty much a tour de
force for the instrument.

There's another current band that uses alot of 70's material to shape their
sound called Monstermagnet that uses something called a 'Theremin' to get
strange electronic sounds...I have a feeling that these spacers also used
or could have used the Mellotron on some of their drug induced
recordings(there's a tune called 'Ozium' on Spine of God that smacks of
Mellotron but I really didn't get the CD out and check.)

A big Sabbath fan(I'm missing three from their catalogue, Live
Evil/Dehumanizer/Ozzie/Sab reunion 2CD), I never really liked the songs
mentioned on Sabbath Bloody Sabbath re Mellotron. Since Sabbath really were
a bass/drum/guitar/vox band the use of keys on Sabbath Bloody Sabbath were
out of context in most cases, IMO...Sabotage is another story, the use here
seems to fit with the overall theme(Supertzar???).

And of course later, enters one Geoff Nicholls, who plays some really nice
keys on lp's Technical Ecstasy and on...no mellotron here I don't believe
but GN is indeed a fine keys player and fits in well with Sabbath's
original lineup(at the end of Ozzie era) and others that followed(Dio/Tony
Martin/Ian Gillan etc..).

Some of my Sabbath info might be a little off as I didn't get CD's out to
verify all info.  I really enjoy the list we have here and want to thank
all readers/writers for contribs and especially the webmaster for bringing
it all together every week.

Until next time,


Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:27:46 PDT
From: "Nomad Stem" <nomad_stem at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Mexico City download - you just can't please everyone all of the time
Interesting reading the first messages appearing on the DGM Guestbook.

Obvious benefits for DGM here are the smaller downloads.  Given they will
be making concerts available, not just single tracks, MP3 size files would
just be rediculously large.  At least the MS format is half what that would
be.  That's significant.  3 hours at 28.8 speed to download almost 70
minutes of music is longer than most people have (except perhaps to
complain about not being able to playback the audio in the first place).

I think the other benefit is the qualify of the audio.  My understanding is
the MS technology is actually better than MP3.  Given that knowledge why
would a group of quality artists wish to go with the lesser quality
playback solution?  That's as much a compromise in an artist's integrity as
anything the detractors wish to suggest.

It doesn't make sense for a new venture to embrace an old, if somewhat
revolutionary, format.  DGM obviously is looking forward here.  Were MP3 an
improving format then it might have been an option.

Given this concert is available for download free, I'm sure once the other
platforms have a player that can play them people will still have access to
the download somewhere on the web.

And lets remember, no one is required to pay anything for this download, and
it is up to you to decide whether immediate access to concert audio from the
previous day's show is worth paying the $10 it might cost.  Our friends down
under might have a thing or two to say about being able to do that, and Joe
Blow in Cleveland who just loved the show he went to will undoubtedly love
being able to get his very own souvenir to play over and over.

Either way some people just won't be happy - that's a simple fact of life.


Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:16:30 -0000
From: "Kate & Eric Kirchner" <kateneric at prodigy dot net>
Subject: Miscellaneous Thoughts
Two quick notes to ET-ers:

1.    Recently got into Steve Reich's "Music for 18 Musicians", and couldn't
help noticing the resemblance between parts of that work and the intro to
"Waiting Man" from "Beat" -- is this coincidental or by design?

2.     Just for American sports fans only: Adrian Belew and Gary Gaetti (3rd
baseman for my beloved Cubbies): separated at birth?

I'll hang up and listen for my answer.


PS: I miss Eb!

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:41:53 -0400
From: "Dennis M. Parrott" <dparrott at mich dot com>
Subject: Showcasing the Chapman Stick
Hello All -

I hope this isn't covered in an FAQ somewhere, I already have too many
Usenet bruises... ouchie!

I hang out at lunchtimes with a fellow who is a musician turned computer
programmer. A week or so ago, we were hanging out in a local CD merchants
store checking out all the stuff we could buy when out of the clear blue my
pal (John) starts into this:

    John:    Hey, you're a King Crimson fan, right?
    Me:      Uhh, yeah...
    John:    Tony Levin - he's in Crimson?
    Me:      Well, yes since about '81...and your point is?
    John:    He plays a Chapman Stick, right?
    Me:      Ummm, yeah as well as Music Man basses. So?
    John:    I wanna know which CD I should buy to best hear him play the
    Me:      Hmmmm.... I don't know -- I JUST LIKE THE MUSIC! I can't tell a
Stick from
               my left elbow... I don't play, I just listen!

...but... I also "know" all you fine folk and so I am asking the
Stick-knowledgeable among you to
help John and I out. So that's the question before the group -- which
Crimson tunes do you think
show off TL's Stick playing the best? (Does anyone know which tune TL is
playing in the pic in
the booklet that came with _KC - Live on Broadway_ where he is pictured
playing the Stick with a BOW!! John's comment when he saw that was "the
first rule of virutousity is there are none", he
shook his head and walked away puzzled...)

Please send your thoughts, ideas, rants to me off-list; I'll summarize and
post them to the list.
I have it from a knowledgeable source that _Elephant Talk_ is opened with a
Stick solo by TL.
So please don't send me emails going -- "hey, its E.T. d00d" -- if that is
your contribution, tell
me which particular version is the one you would like to recommend.

Thanks!  Babbling and Burbling On...

Dennis M. Parrott
web developer-at-large
dparrott at mich dot com

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 07:02:49 -0400
From: "Brian Berry" <bberry at columbus dot rr dot com>
Subject: downloading the Window Media DGM bootleg
   For those who are having trouble downloading the Mexico City bootleg
that DGM has provided over at http://license.keyconnect.com/wm/dgm/ (I had
it timeout and stop three times) you might want to try a download manager
like GetRight or Go!Zilla and then use the following URL:


   It's long, but it will work.

   That way, if the connection times out, the download manager should be
able to reconnect and pick up where it left off.  I have a cable modem and
it still took over five hours at least, so a bit a patience will be needed
also :)

   GetRight is over at http://www.getright.com/ and Go!Zilla is at

Brian Berry
polarize at usa dot net

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 06:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: wilsonhenson at yahoo dot com
Subject: crimson tributes
I have to say that Murky's version of "Neil and Jack and me" is not
only hilarious, but somewhat frightening.I urge all ETers to check this
out on the tribute page from elephant tape. It's very funny.

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:13:01 +0200
From: Marco Grossi <gromar00 at stud dot unibas dot ch>
Subject: request

it is possible to have the chords for guitar of these songs?

-- lizard
- in the wake of poseidon
- island

i have searched a lot without success!

thank you


Mike Stok