Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #605 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 605 Saturday, 7 August 1999 Today's Topics: re: Terry Riley, "No Pussyfooting", etc. Remasters Sabbath using Mellotron More on Mellotron/KC & RHCP Oh, Mr. McDonald!... re: song restatements Ian McDonald's Driver's Eyes RE: KC stylistic deadend? Re: Mellotron Mk VI ?!?!?!? Re: King Crimson / Star Trek FX / Venues can get great deceiever Heartbeat song length on Islands mellotrons again Re: No-Man's Tim Bowness on working with Fripp (part 2) dual-tape delay loop/tubular bells CGT : An Opening Act More on the Tool/KC relationship Re: Caravan wrongly dismissed On Broadway 1995 - Review Frame by frame Deja Vroom DVD En la Corte del Rey Carmesi weird things happen Naming Names CD Review: KC Club #5-6 David Cross Mellotron and remasters I.McDonald RE: KC/VU/Eno/Zappa song restatements continued any of these on dvd? or plans? Do King Crimson fans like drum 'n' bass? for et: Perplexed listening Brand X and Gong webcast this sunday! Vote for TONY LEVIN (Keno's weekly poll) KC on Broadway - review ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 00:20:21 +0200 From: Michael Peters Subject: re: Terry Riley, "No Pussyfooting", etc. there is a small essay on the history of loops at http://www.annihilist.com/loop/history/history.html * Michael Peters: mpeters at csi dot com * escape veloopity: electronic guitar loop music * hop - fractals in motion: strange attractors * http://www.mpeters.de/mpeweb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:26:59 -0400 From: Loren Karnick Subject: Remasters in #602 was the suggestion to someone concerned over acquiring KC now or waiting RF's remastering, I have a question for those owning the cds of Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair. I have resisted buying them, because the records sound thin, to my ears. When I heard the Cirkus and the other live versions of the eighties band, it renewed my interest in the eighties music. Do the cds sound the same as the records? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:32:28 -0400 (EDT) From: James Hannigan Subject: Sabbath using Mellotron Believe it or not, the "fathers of heavy metal" Black Sabbath used mellotrons on the tune "Who Are You" from on the album Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (a record Rick Wakeman also played on). - Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 21:02:23 -0700 (PDT) From: paul bartholet Subject: More on Mellotron/KC & RHCP With all the attention given to the Mellotron as of late, it should be noted that Billy Corgan plays one on the "Siamese Dream" album. Like the Smashing Pumpkins or not, this is a very beautiful, haunting album, unlike their several most recent releases, not that I'm trying to down play them, but "Siamese Dream" holds a special place in my heart. Also, I've noticed a strange break section in the Red Hot Chilli Peppers new song, "Get on Top". It has a very 80's-Crim feel to it. I belive it starts with the lyrics : "Complications of a mastermind......" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 11:26:12 +0200 From: Piotr Zlotkowski Subject: Oh, Mr. McDonald!... Hello dear ETers, Here's the fragment of Ian McDonald's interview for the Polish Radio 3: "Q: You played on Starless - did you return only for the recording session, or were you going to stay? IMcD: I was just playing, it was just recording session, I was just asked if I would play on this one track, although people seem to think that I've rejoined the group. After the session Fripp asked me if I would like to rejoin the group, they were about to go to an American tour. And I said "Yes", and then he immediately, promptly disbanded the group. He... hmm... So I think he just wanted to hear me say about come back to break the band up. A little bit of revenge, I think. Q: Do you believe Fripp would be equal to doing such a thing? IMcD: O, absolutely, ha, ha, I think he just wanted to hear me say that I would come back and promptly broke up the band, yeah, that's my opinion." Hmm... Is Robert Fripp such a revengeful guy? Or maybe Ian McDonald is such an egocentric? What do you think? Peter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:22:20 -0500 From: jgossard at natalia dot k12 dot tx dot us (Jason Gossard) Subject: re: song restatements RE Song restatements and KC's use of the same theme/snippets in different songs: Frank Zappa has numerous examples of this in his ouvre....Especially in his live history, Frank would recycle three or four minute pieces of music in various incarnations: Farther Oblivion would later be split up into Greggary Peccary, The Bebop Tango, and Cucamonga: Holiday in Berlin, Full Blown would eventually find itself as part of Inca Roads; Purple Lagoon would later resurface as Any Kind of Pain. Zappa's catalog is littered with these kind of restatements. I have always seen Zappa, and to a lesser extent KC, as artists uwillingly to throw away or underuse what they consider an especially powerful theme. Jason "Foggy" Gossard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:53:33 -0600 From: John Smallwood Subject: Ian McDonald's Driver's Eyes Recently Michael Peters reviewed Ian McDonald's new CD, and his comments were: >Ian McDonald - what a wonderful musician, but what a boring mainstream >record. I had really expected something more original. What I got is a >collection of polished pop songs in the vein of 90's Wetton or Hackett - >well-crafted, speckless music without edges, without depth. Mr. Peters invited commentary on his opinion. I have to say that I disagree. Everything changes. The music in Driver's Eyes represents where Ian McDonald is now, and I am very interested in where he is now, not where he was. If one approaches the CD from that perspective, it opens the way to the enjoyment of nicely written melodies and excellent lyrics. The things we love about Ian McDonald's music are there, but in tighter packages. This is Ian in 1999/2000, not in 1968/1969. And we should support this endeavor. Ian's soul went into the making of this music over many years. Compare Ian's CD with most of current pop releases, just as you would have compared 1968 work with its contemporaries. In this context I find Driver's Eyes quite enjoyable and, in its own way, progressive. Ian is quite a car buff and loves Jaguar (we raced together in the 1993 Monte Sheldon NW Classic Car Rally, and I can also tell you that he has a strong competitive streak). He watches Formula One religiously. In his hotel room in Japan, before a show, watching the start of a race, the announcer said, "and you can see in the drivers' eyes......" John Smallwood ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 99 14:54:53 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: RE: KC stylistic deadend? I once again feel a KC listening festival coming. I put on THRAK two days ago and could not help hearing Belew's song writing similarities to John Lennon's {"Strawberry Field" period). And yes, perhaps "V'ROOM" and "Coda Marine.." and "V'ROOM V'ROOM" and "V'ROOM V'ROOM Coda" is the functional and stylistic equivalent to "Larks Tongues In Aspic III". The syncronicity is there. After the mini-cd V'ROOM, by the double trio format, that edition only made one other studio album, THRAK. Then there was B'BOOM(live) and THrak AttACK(live improvs.). Did they hit a stylistic dead end here? Fripp should put out as many live cd's of KC's previous incarnations as he possibly can. We all know there is great demand for it. But the last KC studio opus was released in 1994. Five years have elapsed since a labeled King Crimson album has appeared of brand new material. I don't count the ProjecKs in this tally because, only one has seen widespread commercial release and they are merely subsets of the group. jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:04:42 -0400 From: jmooney at bigyellow dot com Subject: Re: Mellotron Mk VI ?!?!?!? crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) wrote: >Michael Tanigawa wrote... > >> Here's what I could come up with in 5 minutes. > >Have a look at www.mellotron.com for a (very) full list of >Mellotron-featuring albums and bands. I hadn't visited www.mellotron.com in quite a while, so I thought it might be worth a visit. They're selling a new Mellotron, the mk VI. I started reading the advertising blurbs - stainless steel capstan, heavier flywheel, unwarpable keyboard, a sturdier, yet lighter cabinet, better motor, remastered tapes - and I think to myself, My Ghod, these things won't sound like a Mellotron at all. But they might stay in tune. Has anyone heard one of these new Mellotrons ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:29:06 -0400 From: jmooney at bigyellow dot com Subject: Re: King Crimson / Star Trek Manuel Fernandez wrote: >About the whole Star Trek / King Crimson fandom: There's probably >a link. Didn't someone say that Robert Fripp is Rock's Mr. Spock? Actually, as the years pass, Steve Howe is looking more and more Vulcan. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:41:36 +0100 From: "Brian Thomson, London UK" Subject: FX / Venues DG Casanouve asked about the effects that Mr. Fripp was using in the early KC era: there are a few interviews on the ET Interviews pages that cover that topic: - Guitar Player, May 1974 covers what he was using at the time, in quite some detail, and with reference to earlier days as well. - Guitar Player (sidebar article), January 1986, talks about the mid-80s. What intrigues me personally is FUZZ. It's clear that the actual fuzzbox or amp doesn't have too much to do with the fundamental FrippTone, despite all the shades of historical fuzzness (fuzzics? fuzzosity? fuzzitude?). It's still coming through loud and clear today with the TC boxes, as it did in the past, through any combination of Burns Buzzaround, Big Muff, Hiwatt head, Foxy Lady, Colorsound, GR-300 hexfuzz, JC-120, Korg A3, or VG-8... For modern fuzz tones, I'm mightily impressed by the Lovetone sound that Edge gets on U2's "Discotheque", as well as his use of analog synth-style filters, which you can now buy on their own (e.g. Sherman FilterBank, Waldorf Miniworks, or the Big Briar / Bob Moog "Moogerfooger"), and even the little Korg AX-1G I have. Then there's my own main field, bass, where you gotta smile at Wetton, the Bass Beast Of Terror, or the cranked up SWR stack Jeff Ament (Pearl Jam) abuses. Yum. Venues: Here in London, UK, not much is happening, really. Dream Theater and Marillion, in the last year, have each filled two nights at the Forum (Kentish Town), at 2000 or so, but that's the type of smelly barn already deprecated by other ETers. The Shepherds Bush Empire is better sounding, but still a bit of a barn, as KC found out in 1996. My other previous suggestion, the Jazz Cafe, was great for the ProjeKcts, but way too small for King Crimson. The opposite extreme would be something like the Royal Festival Hall, which is all-seater but audiophile. It has two smaller siblings, the Queen Elizabeth Hall and the Purcell Room, similar in feel. My top suggestion for the next year or so is the Scala, very close to Kings Cross station, which is very "London" and definitely a departure from KC's past. It used to be a cinema, seating about 1000 max, but was closed for years then refurbished into a large club with facilities for bands as well. Hugh Hefner paid it a visit during his recent London trip with his new wife, if that's any guide. They might, if asked, turn up their noses at a "Rock" band, but that would be their loss..! Brian Thomson, London UK bnt at email dot com "And when any one says that mankind most regard 'The newest song which the singers have,' they will be afraid that he may be praising, not new songs, but a new kind of song; and this ought not to be praised, or conceived to be the meaning of the poet; for any musical innovation is full of danger to the whole State, and ought to be prohibited." - Plato, 'The Republic' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 18:27:27 +0900 From: Chanung Park Subject: can get great deceiever Hi! Check this out, http://www.cdeurope.com. There are several great deceiver boxset. But you need mega bucks. 'cause it's imports. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:00:09 PDT From: "Peter Drubetskoy" Subject: Heartbeat Hi, all! I just wanted to drop my twopence on the "Heartbeat" discussion. First time I heard "Beat" I was pretty disappointed, mainly because of such tracks as "Heartbeat" or "Two Hands", which sounded just dull and... I don't know how to put it... not "King Crimson". "KC" have always written "popish" stuff but each time it was something new, interesting, with this "Crimson" touch. But "Heartbeat"... I've tried to figure out what makes the difference between "pop" songs I like and ones I don't; why, say, "Matte Kudasai" sounds great but "Walking on Air" doesn't? what's wrong with "Heartbeat" and "Two Hands" versus "Three of the Perfect Pair" and "Man With an Open Heart"? I don't know... You see, somehow I've got the feeling that you guys who defend "Heartbeat" are doing it because it's "KC" song and it sucks to admit they just screwed it this time. I mean that provided "King Crimson" was ALL about songs like "Heartbeat" you probably wouldn't even notice the band, you wouldn't know who they are, except maybe for the fact that the musicians are superb, so you'd say something like: a pity such a great guitarist as Fripp is wasting his talent writing and playing this music. Well, that's only my humble opinion, of course, so don't get offended or something, I'm aware of the fact that "de guistibus non est disputandum". Cheers, Peter. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:27:09 -0400 From: seanr at frognet dot net Subject: song length on Islands Listen: Can anyone explain to me why the times on the track listings on the album Islands are extremely wrong. Namely Formontera ladies and sailor's tales. I can't give you the times in question as I don't have the cd with me right now. Check it outfor your selves. please reply, SeAn ReDeFeR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:06:59 +0100 From: brian palmer Subject: mellotrons again et when i was at art college during the seventies, one of the bands round the same area used a mellotron (played genesis/yes derivative stuff) and their keyboard player used to point two hairdryers into the guts of the machine about 30 - 40 minutes before a gig to try and even out the idiosyncrasies of the tape motors. nice sound but endless hassle if i remember him correctly. regards brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:18:45 PDT From: "Nomad Stem" Subject: Re: No-Man's Tim Bowness on working with Fripp (part 2) Thanks to Dann Chinn for the interesting Tim Bowness interview. It's hard not to agree with many of his comments really, but then again I think that the 90's band kind of felt the same way, otherwise we would have had a THRAK II, III, and even IV by now. However, it is hard to contend that KC should be writing pop songs. True, the early material did have nice melodies, but pop in those days was very different to now, and "I Talk To The Wind" may have worked then, but not today. Obviously Mr. Bowness isn't a huge Adrian Belew fan, otherwise he would have given some credit for the "pop" songs AB wrote for the band. Nevertheless, the Cirkus compilation is interesting indeed because of the lack of songs, and an emphasis on instrumentals. Perhaps this has something to do with who selected the music to be on it. The big unknown to me is where vocals even fit in the new ProjeKct based music we've been hearing, which is to morph someway into a KC release. Spoken word vocals, ala "Indiscipline", "Thela Hun Ginjeet", "Cage", "Marine 475", etc... seem to work the best. AB does otherwise have a tendency for syrupy vocals, which seem out of place with "Heavy ConstruKction" or that ilk. I'd like to see this whole issue of vocals discussed more in ET. The ProjeKcts were entirely instrumental R&D, and we have no idea what AB has been cooking up for presentation to Fripp come August. Will AB be happy to sit back and let Trey handle the "vocals" through his effects, like in "Deception Of The Thrush"? Let me just end this by pointing people back to "side 2" of Three Of A Perfect Pair. This is a similar battle for the band. "Side 2" vs. "side 1". Who will win out? Nomad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:40:37 EDT From: NATECARLSO at aol dot com Subject: dual-tape delay loop/tubular bells I noticed the thread about Fripp/Eno's dual-tape delay loop system, and I thought it would be worth mentioning that the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy radio series used the same mechanism to produce an unearthly dial tone sound effect. That was sometime between 1978 and 1980, but I'm not sure if they knew of frippertronics or not. You can read about it in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Radio Scripts. Also, Tim Walker wrote: >I do know that Riley released "A Rainbow In Curved Air" >around 1971, which features a 20-minute "Poppy Nogood" recording as the >second half of the record. Presumably Eno listened and inwardly digested; >Mike Oldfield definitely took inspiration from "Rainbow" for the opening >passage of "Tubular Bells", as he has stated in at least one interview. Christian Vander of Magma claims that "Tubular Bells" was ripped off from "Mekanik Kommandoh." (There are similarities.) You can read about it in an interview at this site: http://member.aol.com/sleeplessz/batmag.htm Basically, Vander claims that Oldfield was in the studio when they recorded Mekanik, and he recorded Bells right after hearing Magma record their album. Who knows? -Nate Carlson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:13:35 -0400 From: "Greg Smith" Subject: CGT : An Opening Act I was wondering if anyone knows where the songs on the CGT's live album were recorded. The CD liner states that the second half of the album was recorded at four different locations, but there are no specifics. I am particularly interested to find out what was recorded in Atlanta, having attended one of the shows. Thanks in advance! -Greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 18:29:44 PDT From: "douglas miller" Subject: More on the Tool/KC relationship Hi, Although the issue has been well discussed, no one pointed out an obvious example of KC influence on Tool. If you listen to Tool 's 2nd album Undertow a little under four minutes into the 3rd song, Sober, you here a quiet part with Maynard, the singer, whispering. As the band moves out of that part and into a louder part, Adam Jones, the guitarist, makes a sound so similar to Adrian Belew's elephant sounds on Elephant Talk, that I would have trouble believing that Jones has never heard Discipline the album. PS As a matter of interest to me, as a guitarist, I wonder if anyone knows how Belew makes that sound, I'm sure it's probably been discussed, but I'd still like to know.(I'm thinking it sounds like a tremlo arm, but I could be wrong) --Douglas Miller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 20:41:09 -0500 From: Craig Shropshire Subject: Re: Caravan wrongly dismissed In regards to the following.................. > There is a mellotron on Caravan's "Nine Feet Underground", but it > appears so seldom that it is easy to miss. > Caravan is mostly inoffensive pop > with none of > the menace of the pre-1980 KC. Correct, Caravan`s music is not "menacing". So what? If you get past the pleasant pop of "Golf Girl" (a charming tune,btw) from "The Land of Grey & Pink", you`ll find some truly amazing music. The classic being side two`s "Nine Feet Underground", which features, amongst other delights, an incredible (Lowrey?) Ratledge-type organ solo. Caravan are important & not to be dismissed! Jim Bailey writes: >I would be loath to cast them off so lightly. While there may not have >been a great deal of weight in the vocals, they could steam along pretty >good instrumentally-wise. Fans of KC's lighter side who aren't aware of >Caravan would be wise to at least give them a listen. INDEED!!!!!!!!!!! > To keep to the >Mellotron theme, an off-shoot of this band and Soft Machine, Matching >Mole - whose second LP, we all know, was produced by Mr. Fripp - also >used one. In fact, "O, Caroline" on their first album features a >Mellotron quite prominently. YES!.................................. AND,....don`t forget the finale "Immediate Curtain". A more mellotron-intensive piece would be hard to find. Matching Mole`s music is (for me) every bit as important as that of our beloved KC....................sadly, their future was tragically cut short. >Many of the Krautrock bands were also heavy users: Tangerine Dream, >Klaus Shultze, Popol Vu, etc. Heavy "users", ha ha ha! I`m unaware of Popul Vuh ever using mellotron, though................. Which album, please?.................I thank you. -Craig Shropshire ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 20:42:06 PDT From: "Rich Malitz" Subject: On Broadway 1995 - Review The long wait is over, Broadway has been released. I still remember when this was going to be called Deja Vrooom. As I always do with brand new CDs, I waited until the sun went down, turned off the lights, put on the headphones and enjoyed the entire 2 CD set. For fun, I didn't look at the setlist, just to have a little "wonder" about what I may get. I was really getting into the show like I was there, and that is what it's all about isn't it? Some of my favorite moments: The percussion solos are just incredible to have, Thela, Neurotica - which has a much "cleaner" mix to it than the 1996 version on Cirkus (plus it is not edited), Walking On Air was a breath of fresh air to my aching ears and it sounded wonderful too, Dinosaur, and Three Of A Prefect Pair. Everything was just great. I only missed Free As A Bird, but since we got that on Belewprints, not a problem. I am so surprised that this ended up a club release as good as it is, but I am hoping that Mexico City 1996 will be the definitive KC Double Trio Live CD that the buying public will hear. From the Cirkus material, I really enjoyed the sound mix (you can really hear Trey this time on everything) and knowing that there are a few more gems in that setlist (Sheltering Sky, Waiting Man, 21st Century Schizoid Man) let's have it! Don't miss On Broadway if you aleady have, it is a bit better than B'Boom, plus the setlist and performance are sensational. Thanks DGM, Robert, David, Alex, Adrian, and "Kengineer" Latchney - GREAT JOB! Rich Malitz Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 05:13:00 PDT From: "Peter Drubetskoy" Subject: Frame by frame Hi, again... For those who live in Paris or might be here soon - there is new (I mean not opened) "Frame by Frame" CD-Box being on sale in "Gibert-Joseph" on St. Michelle Blvr. I know this one is pretty hard to find. The price is...hm, 644 francs, which is about $100. Cheers, Peter. P.S. Do you think it is worth it? What is so special about this CD-Box, it looks like a regular compilation or am I wrong? Somebody, please, explain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 09:25:26 -0500 From: Loren Karnick Subject: Deja Vroom DVD Michael Reffy seeing me bidding at eBay for Deja Vroom suggested that I try Reel.com instead. Anyone interested can pick it up for 17.94 including shipping by entering in a gift certificate code "TRYREEL" to get five dollars off. As a distributor, I assume that they cut their profit margin by reducing the price and don't hurt DGM. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 21:05:05 PDT From: "Jorge Landa" Subject: En la Corte del Rey Carmesi Hi there: Well, Ronald Vogel refers on ET 602 something interesting to me. My older brother (I'm 18, he's more than 20) is a fan of experimental music (things like Art of Noise, Dead Can Dance, Lycia [have somebody out there heard Lycia?, it's much like the soundscapes but in a way too depresive...cool!], etc.) and he likes the Crimson's Beat album. Now, If he hear the Thrakkatak album, he doesn't think that is King Crimson (Even I don't know if it is Prog), something similar could happen with the projekts. What do you think about it? Plus, Ismail Reza says on ET 603: >The problem is, mostly people around me believe that Avant Garde means >strange, uncommon musical instruments (toothbrush, tin bucket, etc), and >several respons upon the idea of King Crimson as an Avant Garde group is >against it. But many people believe KC as a progressive-rock group; >although for me the genre was already to small for KC. Maybe the way that the Crimson's plays their instruments is what direrct us in that way (as well as they) To Alexander Domrin: Here in Mexico have some little books about a inteesting bands, they werre published when this bands come to play, got numbers of King Crimson (of course), Marillion, Yes (not sure about it), and others like Dead Can Dance or the Rolling Stones (wich I hate), they cost about 5 or 6 dollars, it's easy too get them, but only here (don't loose time on the Net). By the way, I must say than here in Mexico is hard to follow the steps of King Crimson, you can get all of their official releases but that's all!, there's nothing else you can get, the only time than their name was pronunced on the radio, was when they come to play (great time), sometime a show about literature play TOAPP(great show), but, till now i haven't found somebody who can be called fan (here everybody listen Ska, those who didn't do it, listen gothic), even when prog is getting effusive (Banco comes to play a month ago, but i can't go to the show... damn money!!!). A question: where the hell does Jon Anderson (more than Lizard) sings? (can I found/buy it in Mexico?) Or even better: can I found/buy something about the Crimson in Mexico (I will realliy thank if somebody than lives in Mexico mail me). Another question: somebody knows how to play The Sheltering Sky, I've tried but i can't catch it. PS. I sorry for my english, but it's the best i can do, now. Jorge Landa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 22:27:48 -0700 From: Spike Subject: weird things happen A strange thing happened one day while I was listening to the new collector's club CD... My little Dachshund, Duncan, was chewing his bone right near the stereo looking quite innocent. Then all at once I noticed he was chewing more vigorously than usual. His little tail was wagging to the beat. Then he started to scratch behind his left ear to the sound of Tony thump'n out a line. My jaw hit the floor when he started to howl. The weird thing was, I understood everything he howled. It went something like this; First of all, I couldn't even sniff his butt. He was holding a bone in his paw. I was thinking, "this is a dangerous park" I said,"I'm nervous as a poodle 'cause those dogs are going to kill me for sure.. They ganged up on me like that, I couldn't believe it!" Look, in still shaking like a chihuahua. These 2 pitbulls appeared acting real aggressive. They started growling at me, "Hey, what's that on that tape?" Oh no, they grabbed it from me, took it away from me, turned it on, and it said, "he held a bone in his paw, this is a dangerous park" "What bone, what danger?!" I whined, I barked, it went on forever. So I unbuckled my collar I said, "look, I'm in this pack, and we're marking the neighborhood" Finally they just let me go. So I walked around the bush, shaking like a poodle. I thought, "this is a dangerous park." Ha, who should I meet but 2 animal control officers! Enjoying the new CD, spike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:11:28 +0100 From: "Sid Smith" Subject: Naming Names Re Robert's recent post on naming names - here's a true story. On 21st March 1973 KC played at the City Hall in Newcastle up in the North East of England. Having seen Crimson with Jamie Muir in the line up just four months earlier, there was a substantial buzz of pre-gig excitement amongst our long haired throng. After weeks of waiting, the prize was in sight. Only one thing in the way of our intended goal the hapless support act. On this occasion, the victim was a young singer songwriter called Claire Hammil. Normally, we would listen to such acts in a disinterested or slightly grumpy silence but on this night, we were brim full of testosterone and in no mood to hear delicate songs of love and woe. So, we started heckling. My fellow Crimchums we were awful. We were worse than awful. We were in the front row. We mocked and taunted as she struggled through her set. About mid way she tried to talk to the crowd "Is there anybody out there called Sidney ?" she implored. Much to her chagrin, I yelled "MEEEEEE!!!" Our eyes met, she sighed and said "Oh well, this one's for you. It's called Sidney Gorgeous". Not long after that fateful song, a stoic Claire H finished her set and slouched off stage. We all felt very clever with ourselves for having made her life hell. A few minutes later KC took to the stage but that's another story. And the point is ? I wasn't called Sidney at all. 16 years previously, I had been christened Colin Henry Smith. Not a hint or a whiff of being called Sid had ever come into my life. However, from that moment onward, I was Sid. For about a week the Gorgeous remained in place but after that, for some inexplicable reason it was dropped and I became just plain Sid Smith. Since that night, friends, family and even the folks at work call me Sid. It felt and feels comfortable. I felt confident in a way I never had before. As the poet once said, I could now "wrestle poodles and win !" To this day I don't feel like a Colin. Or even a Colin Henry. I realised I must have always been called Sid somewhere inside and had only been waiting for the right time for it to be revealed to me. So, a belated public thanks and apology to Claire Hammil. Thanks for my name and I'm sorry my mates and I were such a pain in the butt that night. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:15:40 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: CD Review: KC Club #5-6 I have to admit that if I were told last year that the first year of the club would consist of one live recording each from the five major Crimson units I would not guess that the double trio would be among my favorites--it is. "On Broadway" captures this band on a very strong night, and, like #3 (Beat Club) is a particularly valuable release. Among the things that make it interesting is the way Fripp slowly introduces elements of his Soundscape playing into the Crimson mix, which is something he also did on the ProjeKCt 2 tour and that I hope he will continue to do in the new Crimson. Fripp's solos on this release are, by the way, masterful. At first listening, the first four tracks seemed ordinary to me, but with VROOM VROOM I felt myself snapping to attention. The improvs on the set are all striking (2 have, I think, appeared on Thrakattak--very similar anyway), all solos are to the point yet very strong, and the band is tight. This is all especially true when compared to B'Boom, a nice set that, I think, On Broadway "blows away." Indeed, this is one thing that makes #5-6 valuable for me. I've liked, and am glad to have, all 5 releases, but for me #1 suffers in comparison to Epitaph, #4 in comparison to Absent Lovers. (The Islands KC (#2) has yet to grab me. Remember, all of this is subjective.) If there is a problem with the set it is that the band is under the constraints that come with giving a major "rock concert" by a major band. But the song selection is not too obvious, and "show biz" elements are kept to a minimum. The first release of the second year is from ProjeKCt 4. I suspect that there is plenty of great material from these tours to come. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:38:58 -0500 From: "SYNCHRO, RONALD VOGEL" Subject: David Cross Hi all Just for you to know, if not already, that Mr Cross has already released 4 CDs (Memos from Purgatory 89 / The Big Picture 92 / Testing to Destruction 94 / Exiles 97). "Memos from Purgatory" is mostly instrumental and of them all ,IMHO , is the best one. "Testing to Destruction" and "The Big Picture" are 60% sung and 40% instrumental. Vocals sound similar to Roger Waters (PInk Floyd). "Exiles" is the the last one and has different collaborations from other musicians (Fripp, Wetton, Hammil, etc...) which makes the music more diverse if compared to the first 3. Most of the songs are sung. Highlight is the long "Exiles" version sung by Wetton whic was also included (edited version) in the KC tribute. All CDs are really worth to have. They are well produced and, the most important, the music is very good. It is nor commercial music at all. When i bought them i was very well surprised for i did not expect so much quality. It proves that Cross was not only a complement to King Crimson but was really a collaborating part of it. For you that do not know, Cross has posted a few newsletter ago informing his web site (members.aol.com/noisynoisy). The site is fairly simple but has lots of usual information on his musical career. Have fun. Cheers - Ronald ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:51:59 +0200 From: "SYNCHRO, RONALD VOGEL" Subject: Mellotron and remasters Hi all thanks for all the comments and posts about the mellotron subject including the one correcting one of my mistakes. In fact early Crimnso did use the device to create orchestral sounds in "ITOCK", "Epitaph" and "ITWOP". When i forgot it i was thinking more about the 73/74 formation than early recordings. Remastered CDs by Fripp / Singleton do have some changes. If anyone is thinking about of selling old vynil or Cds better forget it. You would never be able to compare changes and choose your own preference. If anyone has enough money just buy them all after checking if it is worth or not. Cheers Ronald ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 19:16:18 +0200 From: siggy Subject: I.McDonald Ian McDonald-"Drivers eyes": the key here are one's expectations. If you expect ITCOCK-type of music you'll be surely dissapointed (maybe a very small shadow of "Epitaph" on "Forever and never" sung by John Wetton?). If you expect some radio-compatible happy pop you might be very glad about this issue. For everyone clear to hear,why Mr.McDonald wasn't keen to team up with Heartless(but not raging)Leader. After listenig to McDonald's proposition, I again decided to buy Mr.Wetton's albums, even if those might be at the time 4 concert releases with similar repertoire.There you can at least sometimes hear a touch of unique composing talent through all his well-known banalities. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 99 15:42:19 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: RE: KC/VU/Eno/Zappa While it cannot be successfully argued that Adrian Belew was not influenced by John Lennon(see "People" on THRAK), and that while Adrian only spent a year with FZ, he carries much of his influence lyrically and song structure -ly wise, this is not the essence of the this post. Rather, I would like to assert that Robert Fripp's guitar stylings and song structures owe much to the influence of Lou Reed, John Cale, Nico...The Velvet Underground. In fact, RF may have been may have indirectly influenced by his early seventies collaborations with Brian Eno, who was then late of Roxy Music. That Brian Eno was directly influenced by The Velvet Underground there can be no doubt. He has been quoted as saying just as much. And much of Roxy Music's work also shows that influence. The droning on "Swastika Girls" on their early collaboration NO PUSSYFOOTING is one example of that pollenation. And the fact that Brian eno's solo albums had John Cale on Viola, as well as Robert Fripp, further attests to this. For a live collaboration between Nico, Cale, and Eno one need only spin JUNE 1, 1974. So the indirect influence is there and documented. And finally John Cale and Brian Eno collaborated together on an album in the early nineties. But was there a more direct connection/influence? I am struck by the cacophonous "Son Of Monster Magnet" off of FZ's FREAK OUT. Zappa's first album actually bumped THE VELVET UNDERGROUND AND NICO out of a 1965 release date. Both were produced by Tom Wilson, Dylan's early producer. Try comparing "A Sailor's Tale" off of ISLANDS to "Heroin" and "European Son", as well as "It Was A Pleasure Then", the two former on TVUAN, and the latter off of Nico's CHELSEA GIRLS. The latter title had the principals: Reed, Cale, and Morrison as song-writers and players. Most of Lou Reed's guitar influence on Fripp's playing can also be seen on VU's second opus WHITE LIGHT/WHITE HEAT. Listen to the seventeen minute "Sister Ray". The Velvets were de-constructing rock 'n roll long before King Crimson. While the picturesque lyrics of Sinfield and Palmer-James are far from the gutter poet laureate meanderings of Lou Reed, I am not asserting the Velvets left a lyrical influence. Surprisingly(maybe not so), This VU influence really gets heavy during the Crimson quartet of the eighties. With Blondie and The Talking Heads carrying the Velvet Underground's torch so to speak. And RF played Lead guitar on Blondie's "Fade Away and Radiate". [As an aside, RF could've gotten more VU influence from his landmark collaborations with David Bowie. The Trilogy that included HEROES and SCARY MONSTERS.] So I think that there may be a direct influence on the Music of King Crimson and The Velvet Underground. jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:27:37 PDT From: "jose pesante" Subject: song restatements continued on ET #604, Eric DePoy wrote: > I can think of another example which underscores James' point. One >section of the epic first side of Rush's 1978 album Hemispheres contains >snippets from the song Cygnus X-1, which was released on their previous >album A Farewell to Kings. The name of this epic piece that contains the >song snippets....Hemispheres: Cygnus X-1 Book Two. > Rush's drummer Neil Peart has mentioned King Crimson as one of his >musical influences. Could it be that he took a cue from ITWOP in using >the song-snippet technique for Hemispheres? You can actually trace the use of this songwriting technique to Frank Zappa's first albums, where as part of what he called conceptual continuity, he deliberately used parts or "snippets" of songs from the same album on other albums. Although I couldn't single out one from his early period right now, one that comes to mind is the duo of "Apostrophe/Overnite Sensation" released in the 70's. If you listen to them you'll find a lot of parts that are used in both recordings made years apart. Anyway, keep up the good work! Zappa and Crimso forever!!!! Jose Pesante Ramos Carolina, Puerto Rico. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:58:38 +0200 From: "Christian Skina" Subject: any of these on dvd? or plans? Dear list I have received 2 SVHS tapes from a Japanese angel, one containing the Sylvian-Fripp concert, the other the Guitar Trio+Fripp. I saw the programs before but now the whole story is different. Watched on a svhs video and through a dts sound system I have seen and listen to God (R). Anyway, enough with personal remarks. I think these 2 programs would look much better in anyone's house on a dvd, with no fear of damaging the tapes. Both productions deserve to be archived for the market: beautiful performances and wonderful filming/editing. Is there anyone who has spotted any of these two concerts in a DVD form? I suppose in Japan there's a lot going on in this business (have a look at what they have released from Yes for instance). Or, even better, are there any DGM plans to dvd-ize other KC/Fripp concerts besides Deja Vroom? Al Capone said: "Once you're in, there's no way out". Same with DVD: there's no return to vhs and stereo. Please don't ask for copies: I have received the tapes on my word of not posting the source's name and not making any copy. The guy is not on this list, he's not even a KC fan. He did not ask money either. Mazzel ! (that's "good luck!" in Dutch) Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:57:29 +0200 From: "Paul de Ruijter" Subject: Do King Crimson fans like drum 'n' bass? I just bought a japanese copy of the projeKct four album "West coast live". It's awesome. Some tracks are a sort of high-tech drum 'n' bass! Are there any other KC-fans who also like this kind of dance music with names like Photek, Klute, Optical and Jonny L. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: James Crary Subject: for et: Perplexed listening Today was the anniversary of Hiroshima. After answering my messages from Japan, where I have friends, grief swept over me for the second time today. Although my father never mentioned that he was in contact with former President Bush as a radio officer on the San Jacinto, he spoke to me many times of the atom bomb, and that, although his life was spared due the end of the war, he wish the bombs had not been used, for humanity's sake. Obviously feeling this way, there was only one thing to play, "Starless" by King Crimson. I've found that when Crimson strikes deep when guided to by a feeling of perplexity. It's almost alarming that Fripp has managed to create a tapestry that watches the beaches of life like an eternal lifeguard, but I've long since given up wondering how he does it, esp. on a day like this one. James Crary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 20:54:16 -0600 From: "LIEDO" Subject: Brand X and Gong webcast this sunday! not KC related but sure some of you will enjoy it http://www.liveconcerts.com/event/premainframe.html Don't miss it I'm gonna record it! GONG was great in Mexico City... what a fucking great combination of surrealism, sike-ay-delic, progressive and INSANITY!!!! Keep on rockin' Gerardo Liedo Mexico City... the land of Nopal, peyote and sike-ay-delic mushroms ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:06:10 -0600 From: "LIEDO" Subject: Vote for TONY LEVIN (Keno's weekly poll) I know that polls are always unfair and not objective but I can't believe that the best bass player has only 3 votes out of 442 TO vote go to VOTE FOR TONY Saludos Gerardo Liedo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 21:27:17 -0400 From: pete Subject: KC on Broadway - review Received the latest Collector's Club issue two days ago. It's a two disk set of the Crimson King in semi-residency at the Longacre Theater in NYC November '95 - King Crimson on Broadway. This is one of the best Collector's releases so far and one of the better live KC albums (Absent Lovers and Live at the Marquee are my top choices). It knocks the spots off B'BOOM. I expect that's because most of the group were less confident with the material and the double trio concept in that earlier recording. There's a pretty good selection of the double trio repertoire from Talking Drum/LTIA II through Indiscipline, the fabulous Neurotica, the full blast of B'BOOM/THRAK and a crackling performance of People. Thrak was somewhat of disappointment when released. There were some splendid moments. Yet, I was left wondering what all this double trio garbage was. Listening to the final tracks of KCOB the other night - VROOM and Coda:Marine 475 - I think I finally got it. Don't ask me to explain it. There were no visions over English churches or other epiphanous (is that a word) stuff. It was just the interplay between Bruford and Mastelotto that grabbed me and said "hey this works". All in all the ensemble is tight, beautifully orchestrated. Two negative comments: you can "see some of the joins" were different sets are spliced together somewhat going against the grain of the "complete performance" concept of the Collector's Club. what, oh Frippster, is that THRaKaTTak improv doing tacked on the end? Makes no sense and detracts from the rest of an excellent release. Pete McClymont pjmcclym at erols dot com p.s. - any Mogwai fans out there? See them in the US in September. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #605 ********************************