Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #604 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 604 Sunday, 1 August 1999 Today's Topics: REVIEW: Ian McDonald - Drivers Eyes Fripp & New Age Re: Avant Garde RE: An Observation and a Query song restatements KC/RF commercial releases Terry Riley, "No Pussyfooting", etc. Whatever Robert have said RE: Mellotron belew live Hello one and all (be sure to change your Mellotron tapes every 3000 miles) Mellotron Adrian Belew CD for sale King Crimson / Star Trek Change of Life RE: CIRKUS (a tentative review) Mellotrons Again No-Man's Tim Bowness on working with Fripp (part 2) collectors club More on Mellotrons Tape delay Something that never would happen but is cool to waste time Adrian Belew-Buffalo 7/30 RE: RED DGM ET & Star Wars Meet! Cream & Mellotrons ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:39:09 +0200 From: Michael Peters Subject: REVIEW: Ian McDonald - Drivers Eyes Ian McDonald's long expected solo CD, starring big names such as Steve Hackett, John Wetton, Peter Sinfield, Michael Giles, Peter Frampton, Gary Brooker. Ian McDonald - what a wonderful musician, but what a boring mainstream record. I had really expected something more original. What I got is a collection of polished pop songs in the vein of 90's Wetton or Hackett - well-crafted, speckless music without edges, without depth. These people made passionate, visionary music in the seventies. Is there anyone who really likes this stuff? I'm really disappointed. * Michael Peters: mpeters at csi dot com * escape veloopity: electronic guitar loop music * http://www.mpeters.de/mpeweb ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 99 08:52:58 +0000 From: "Kim Fyson" Subject: Fripp & New Age Has anyone else noticed Robert Fripp in the credits of "FAR OUT" the New Age series currently screening on C4. Does anyone know what he contributed? -------- Kim Fyson VIDEO CULTURE Cambridge England 30-Jul-99 08:35:06 Tel: 01223 313126 Mobile: 0403 619270 Web Site: http://www.vidcul.u-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:56:59 +0700 From: "Dave Lumenta" Subject: Re: Avant Garde In response to The Schizoid One Reza (which surprisingly happens to be another of the few Indonesian King Crimson enthusiasts here on ET) Regarding debates around labelling certain genres of music, the real point has never been made clear . Labels are made just for easy classification and usually derive from various perspectives by different parties (historians, critics, music press, music industries etc). Just terms to ease the descriptive vocabulary. Whether KC is labelled as 'progressive' or 'avant garde', I think there's a common referent being made: the fact that KC's music is certainly outside the period's mainstream idioms and genres. While 'progressive' is at sometimes a misleading concept referring to linear developing achievements (in the sense of how Western modernism is often described - a development from a simple structure to a much more complex structure, thus referring more to technically described achievements), the term 'Avant Garde' (also misleading when literally translated ) was used to describe the deviant nature of some art works produced by the art circles in Paris and Zurich at the beginning of this century. Avant garde is thus more referring to certain ideological resistances against mainstream art ideologies in a certain context. In this sense, the improvisational KC 1972-74 is certainly 'avant garde' when compared against the big Led Zep- big stadium industrial rock- ideology at that time. 'Avant Garde' art was always considered to be the extreme antithesis of 'traditional' art, and as Robert Fripp once said, " King Crimson isn't about traditions." Cheers (dan salam kenal untuk penggemar King Crimson lain di Indonesia) Dave Lumenta ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:15:12 +0100 From: Gareth Bouch Subject: RE: An Observation and a Query >I read in a biography of Peter Gabriel, that a South Bank Show was >dedicated to the making of his fourth album (informally known as >"Security"). Does anyone have any idea how I could get my hands on >this? I don't believe that the video is in any way commercially available. I wrote some time after it was shown to the TV company responsible and they were no help. However I bought it as part of a bootleg video of various Gabriel TV appearances and some live footage a couple of months ago. That was in Camden market in London - and I've seen copies there again since. Don't know if you're in the UK, but if so this may help. (Some of the quality on the tape is pretty dire, but the South Bank Show bit is fine). Hope this may be of some help. Cheers, g a r e t h b o u c h --------------------- http://www.smallcreep.com gareth at smallcreep dot com Smallcreep CDs are available through Nightbreed Recordings and also at Resurrection Records and Metalhead, Camden, London --------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:20:48 -0400 From: Erik DePoy Subject: song restatements James Dusewicz wrote in ET #603: "Speaking of ITWOP, which I think is ITCOTCK part two for all practical purposes. "Devil's Triangle" has a snippet of "In The Court of The Crimson King" buried in the mix. ITWOP came out in (1969). The only similar snippet inclusion of a song I can recall is on Simon And Garfunkle's BOOKENDS album that includes in the song "Save The Life of My Child" a snippet of "The Sounds Of Silence" from the lp of the same name. BOOKENDS also came out in (1969)." I can think of another example which underscores James' point. One section of the epic first side of Rush's 1978 album Hemispheres contains snippets from the song Cygnus X-1, which was released on their previous album A Farewell to Kings. The name of this epic piece that contains the song snippets....Hemispheres: Cygnus X-1 Book Two. Rush's drummer Neil Peart has mentioned King Crimson as one of his musical influences. Could it be that he took a cue from ITWOP in using the song-snippet technique for Hemispheres? Erik DePoy New York City ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:00:26 +1000 From: Rob Dunkley Subject: KC/RF commercial releases I've just got back into King Crimson/Fripp after a break of about 15 years (I still play the vinyl versions that I bought back in the early 80's, 'cos being in Australia we're a bit deprived of closer contact to the real thing, and are unlikely to ever see RF in person). My CD's have now multiplied with some more recent KC releases and I've been really impressed (especially Absent Lovers - great stuff), also a couple of "samplers" from DGM which I have also now grown to love, "Sometimes God Hides" and "Sometimes God Smiles". New buys have been sourced from a great music site at www.chaosmusic.com, which is Australian-based and has a superb selection of KC and related material - CD, cassette, video, DVD (even vinyl on occasion). They even give a discount to new customers - prices are in Australian, US and Euro and the search engine is really fast and simple (normally I wouldn't plug anyone, but Chaos are really good). The ET newsletter is really great so keep up the good work, and I'm sure there are a lot of supporters here who would love to see any version of KC live without travelling to Europe or the USA. All the best . . . RD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:38:22 +0100 (BST) From: "TAWalker" Subject: Terry Riley, "No Pussyfooting", etc. Hi ETers, I haven't posted in a while, but I was intrigued by the current thread speculating on the use of the dual-tape-recorder delay loop system (i.e. Frippertronics), and who used it first. From my readings, it seems that Terry Riley was the inventor of the system, though Pauline Oliveiros was working along similar lines in the same geographic region (West Coast USA) and time (mid-60s). IIRC, his first recording of "In C" around 1963 used a similar, if not identical, system, and Riley was **certainly** using the "Time Lag Accumulator" (as he titled the dual-Revox tape delay setup) for his "Poppy Nogood" all-night concerts around 1967-68, except he was playing organ and soprano saxophone through the system instead of guitar. I don't think Brian Eno has ever claimed to be the first to use the dual-Revox system, though his art school background and interest in modern composers at the start of the 70s probably put him in a good position to learn about it. I do know that Riley released "A Rainbow In Curved Air" around 1971, which features a 20-minute "Poppy Nogood" recording as the second half of the record. Presumably Eno listened and inwardly digested; Mike Oldfield definitely took inspiration from "Rainbow" for the opening passage of "Tubular Bells", as he has stated in at least one interview. BTW, I would warmly recommend "A Rainbow In Curved Air" to any ETers who haven't heard it. Play "Poppy Nogood" back to back with "The Heavenly Music Corporation", and the similarities are striking... Just my penny's worth :-) Tim. --- Tim Walker - Staines, MIDDX, U.K. tawalker at dircon dot co dot uk "Over The Bridge" - solo loop guitar CD available at http://www.mp3.com/timwalker/ --- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:48:43 +0200 From: "enculez.moi" Subject: Whatever Robert have said July is about to end, and some questions arise. Many of my friends criticize me because i have always points of view to share. I give you the opportunity to taste it too - Yesterday, i was contemplating the Collectors Club Number 1 to 5/6, and i was pretty aware of the great chance i had to get those. Some thought is not commercialize. Perhaps it is. But it is pretty clever too to take the customers to the source. Even if it is not my wish, i really dont think neither THRaK aTTaK (result of the Eters demand what might be consider as the DGM CC number Zero) sold well, nor CIRKUS. Mr. Fripp is wrong. DGM is probably the best independant label on work this time around. It knows where it goes, and how. These are the right choices. - Yesterday again, i listened to those DGM CC releases and point out that now i had different live versions of tunes like Elephant Talk, Indiscipline, and i started to compare it. The marvellous CC Number 4 Live at Cap dAgde shows with precision the talented fret work from both Ade (on the left) and Bob (on the right) wich i wasnt especially able to identify many years ago on the DISCIPLINE album. And i listened to the various double trio versions and i was wondering : " where the hell is Tray Gunn ? ". In this dense music, full of cadence and cascades of notes, i have great difficulty to capture his musical work wherin the band. And so, my reflexion went straightforward to a point i was very please, just tell me what you think and if its possible : What, if the new KC incarnation, can display new songs of intricate works by both Ade, Bob and Trey ! Just imagine that. Like the tune Discipline, but with a third line, different of course, for Trey. I think it will be more complexed and more mesmerizing. Ade playing a sequence of three notes, Bob three notes too but at another scale, and Trey too. I dont know. They are the musiciansI hope they thinked about this possibility. - the PROJEKcT Box will be available through mail order in about two weeksthats a great news ! - i have taken note of the topics we couldnt talked about anymore. On the other hand, only reading posts saying " thats wonderful ! thats great ! " could not open any debate. If ET has to become only a show case of publicity, just make it clearly. I love other types of music, other artists and i think it is obvious to talk about them to, even to compare them to KC. - A simple question : is there any other King Crimson fan from Belgium ? I would like to get in contact with. Any response on personal e-mail are encouraged and welcomed. - I think im a nice guy. How can we judge ourselves without knowing us, only via posted mails ? - Me too i would without any problem rid of my cds in plastic box for the cardboard Japanese-like presentation. Just do it for the remasters ! - And for the last time, is anybody in here interesetd in a remastered rerelease in the format talked about on the previous point of the entire Van Der Graaf Generator catalogue ? If DGM could get the rights it will be so great. Can you tell me why this band does not deserve a better treatment by his disclabel ? Thank you all for your patience ! E mail to : packard dot goose at infonie dot be ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:27:44 +0100 From: Tony Brown Subject: RE: Mellotron Hello there Back in the late seventies as a callow youth, and with the obsessiveness of callow youth, I made a point of buying albums which seemed to feature the mellotron prominently (and also ones which mentioned the ARP string ensemble by name, but that's enough of my peccadillos). Some of the most beautiful and skilled mellotron arrangements I've heard are on the Pavlovs Dog albums 'Pampered Menial' and 'At the sound of the Bell' (the latter featuring a certain Mr Bruford on drums). They're an unusual band.....a bit proggy, a bit poppy, and feature a singer who 'sounds like a choirboy on speed' (to borrow a quote from somewhere or other)....but an aquired taste worth aquiring IMO, and like I say, lovely mellotron. And of course there is THE mellotron classic 'Assault and Battery/The Golden Void' (from 'Warrior on the Edge of Time by Hawkwind), which should be heard, and reheard, by every mellotron afficianado. Oh yes, and the end of Gates of Delerium (by Yes off Relayer) is another mellotron-fest worth a listen. Whilst I'm here, on the subject of 'other halves' and the music of KC, I went on holiday in Devon many years back with my girlfriend. Every night we'd sit watching the sun go down sipping cocktails or whatever, and listen to some suitable sun-going-down music. I'd done a mellow tape for just such moments, and naturally enough put 'Starless' on it. Trouble was, once the 'sun down....' bit had finished, I could never bring myself to forward fast past the decidedly non-mellow bit. By the third night. as we put out the chairs and settled back to cop for the last of the days rays, my girlfriend said 'Can we not listen to the torture music tonight?'. Ah well, there you go. Cheers Tony ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:53:38 -0600 From: "Steven Sthole" Subject: belew live In ET#603, someone named Hiro quoted my previous ET post (without actually quoting me): >> i'm not saying ade isn't great, but next time ask the soundman to show you >> the tapes. and remember to ignore that little man behind the curtain!" The only time that Adrian used tapes (at least in the show I saw), he made it quite clear to the audience that he was doing so, usually by telling us or by simply hitting a foot pedal. The impressive thing to me was how he laid down a rythym base with his guitar, then let the echo from that provide him with the opportunity to play lead on top of that. No tapes were invloved in that process. I guess your reference to the "man behind the curtain" is way over my head. If a person is impressed, either with the Carpenters, Neil Young or Adrian Belew, don't immediately assume they were "fooled". Try to look for something "within the music", and not think of it as a trick pulled off by someone behind the scenes. I never said Adrian was or was not "great": I merely said that he "entered a special place in my heart (already occupied by such players as) Leo Kottke, Michael Hedges, and Jimi Hendrix.". That's about as subjective as you can get. Perhaps my one error was to take it upon myself to speak for the whole crowd, e.g. : "He floored us with his virtuosity...", etc. I guess I really was fooled then: by the enthusiasm of the audience. -sws ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:09:37 PDT From: "phil mckenna" Subject: Hello one and all (be sure to change your Mellotron tapes every 3000 miles) Greetings, I am a relative newcomer to the ET Digest, but certainly not to KC's music (having been turned on to them at age 15). Some of you were wondering about others that made use of the magnificent (but rather tempramental) Mellotron. The obvious ones were Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Gryphon (later stuff), PFM, Led Zep, Greenslade, Refugee, and even Captain Beefheart (on "Doc at the Radar Station"). Cream actually did use the "tron on their albums, thing is, it's rather buried in the mix, you have to dig for it (in "Badge" for example). I'm encouraged to see it enjoying a resugence in more recent times with people as diverse as Joan Osborne, Anekdoten, Michael Penn and Tori Amos (actually, the last two employ the Chamberlin, the Mellotron's compact predecessor). For all our digital wizardry, nothing can replace that unique haunting, eerie sound! As far as if I wanted to introduce someone to KC, what one or two albums would I use? If only one, it would be a toss up between "Starless and Bible Black" or "Red" (I say this because the composed songs on both are great, but the improv's on "Starless" are far superior IMHO, the "Providence" improv on "Red" just did not work at all). If two, it would be one of the aforementioned two, plus "In the Court of the Crimson King" (with ITWOP coming in second). The one album I would avoid playing for a new convert would be "Islands" (granted, it did have a moment or two of brilliance, but a lot of it could be a real turn-off because of the over-extended material and weak musicianship of the core band) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:12:39 -0500 From: "Lake" Subject: Mellotron Mellotrons were not limited to "prog rock." For instance, extensive use of the mellotron is made on 'Startstruck' by the Kinks (on their woefully under-appreciated "Village Green Preservation Society") and I can't put my finger on it right now, but the Small Faces used it a few times as well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:27:16 -0400 From: Kevin Subject: Adrian Belew CD for sale I have a copy of Adrian Belew's Inner Revolution CD for sale if anyone is interested. I'll send it anywhere in the US for $8 postage paid (International postage depends on destination). The CD is in perfect condition with a slight cut in the jewel case. contact me off list is interested Thanks kevin at minds-eye dot org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:46:38 -0400 From: Manuel Fernandez Subject: King Crimson / Star Trek About the whole Star Trek / King Crimson fandom: There's probably a link. Didn't someone say that Robert Fripp is Rock's Mr. Spock? Manuel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:15:35 -0400 From: "M. Sheffield" Subject: Change of Life I can divide my musical life into two parts: Pre-King Crimson and Post King Crimson. I was only vaguely aware of KC before seeing them live in Houston, Texas on June 5, 1973. They were performing the material from the newly released album "Larks' Tongues in Aspic." A fellow garage-band member and I were in attendance and neither of us has ever been quite the same. I believe that everyone capable of hearing who attended that show was transformed. In Melody Maker a critic once said (referring to KC) that "where this band is concerned, there are great nights and unbelievable nights." After twenty-six years, I'm still having trouble believing that night. It was also the night when the hair on my head went from straight to permanent curl. "King Crimson! Hair curled by appointment only!" They should advertise it that way. -Mike Sheffield, EkimShield at email dot msn dot com ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 99 15:00:36 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: RE: CIRKUS (a tentative review) Well another summer another King Crimson 2 CD set. Only this one is quite different from the excellent NIGHT WATCH and ABSENT LOVERS sets. But for $22:50, what the hell, right? First let me say that upon reflection, I already own at least ten tracks out of the twenty-five tracks on this 2 CD set. This gives me fifteen new unheard tracks. (more about this in a future in depth review). While the sonic quality is fantastic(this set would make a truly wonderous car tape), this does not detract from the above fact. Mel Collin's snorting sax runs on "Ladies Of The Road" sound right out of FZ's "King Kong"; and "21st Century Schizoid Man" is not unlike the sorely missed and out of print CD EARTHBOUND. I do really adore these two cuts from the post-ISLANDS band. But where is the (18:00) minute "Groon"? Wouldn't an EARTHBOUND cut be more appropriate here? When I purchased this set I was hoping for yet new undiscovered versions of "Fracture" and "Starless". I already own these cuts off of THE GREAT DECEIVER box set. Why not include the rumored concert versions from USA or even USA II? I see the non-inclusion as a missed DGM opportunity to promote that MIA set that should've come out in 1997. And the "A Man A City" and "In The Court Of The Crimson King" inclusions by the original band at the Fillmore East? Why put those in when there are other selections from the two other more obscure discs of the 4 CD EPITAPH set? Needless to say, three cuts from ABSENT LOVERS(1984, five years after Belew sang "Flakes" for FZ), and two from NIGHT WATCH are included. But the six or so cuts from the KC live in Mexico City(1996) smoke. These tunes are spooky, melancholy, and evil sounding. "Heavy Construcktion" is the same cut off of SOMETIMES GOD SMILES. So if you have that sampler.... "Indiscipline" and "Elephant Talk" from (1995) are truly riveting. Fripp adds embroidery to the rhythm of "Indiscipline" quite like Garcia does with the "Row Jimmy" off of DOZIN' AT THE NICK. And the arrangements have subtle differences from the quartet versions done live. The PRojecKs inclusions only show that the subsets of the double trio format of KC are just as viable at sounding like the instrumental tracks on THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR as the quartet was. In sum: for the newbie this 2 CD set is a wonder to behold! For those without THE GREAT DECEIVER, NIGHT WATCH and ABSENT LOVERS this shows just how good those albums are. But for those already initiated??? I guess why this is subtitled: A YOUNG PERSONS GUIDE TO KING CRIMSON LIVE. a good compendium for the anthology minded amongst us. But as a true believer...I can't help find this set wanting. And the omissions from EARTHBOUND and USA(II) are glaringly apparent. jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:16:49 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Mellotrons Again More Mellotron stuff.... Jean-Sebastien_Rostan wrote... > Most of King Crimson emotions passed through that wonderful (but > unreliable) instrument... The unreliablity of this instrument is a point of some debate. Mine has been gigged several times and has even been hired out on occasion, and it's never given anyone any problems at all yet. Sure, it's full of moving parts, but so is a Hammond. Admittedly some of the earlier models had problems with their motor assemblies but that was then, so to speak. No doubt some 'other readers' might have some horror stories of their own. > One has not to be a virtuose (why Yes and ELP or Gentle-Giant werent > big users) Keith Emerson never used the Mellotron because of something to do with 'stealing other peoples music', (a strange assertion from someone who wholesale stole entire pieces from established composers!), but Yes used them all the time in the 1970s. Hiro Noodles wrote... > well, i certainly think that john paul jones warrants > mention as an innovative mellotron player. He's certainly expressive. On 'Rain Song' he played Jimmy Page's MkV double manual with cellos and strings, giving a really unique blend of sound, much beloved of fans of the sound. However, as a friend who recently interviewed Jones for a Japanese keyboard magazine found out, his thoughts on it were... "Mellotron M400 / MKII: studio, stage, hated them. Yamaha GX1: studio, stage, In Thru The Outdoor. Loved it." Michael Tanigawa wrote... > Here's what I could come up with in 5 minutes. Have a look at www.mellotron.com for a (very) full list of Mellotron-featuring albums and bands. > Cream's use of the mellotron is debatable. Felx Pappalardi (sp?), Cream's producer, owned an M400 and used it on Cream's records. > Finally King Crimson also used the mellotron to create orchestral > effects, and not merely to terrify the listener. I find it useful to terrify the neighbours. :-) Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Fax 0131-271-1551 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Columnated Ruins Domino ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:06:01 +0100 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: No-Man's Tim Bowness on working with Fripp (part 2) Here's the second part of the excerpted interview with No-Man's singer Tim Bowness regarding King Crimson, taken from No-Man's homepage. During the interview it was suggested that the Double Trio minus Adrian but with No-Man attached might make "a fascinating unit". For those of you who don't know No-Man well, it's an alliance of Bowness with Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree - hence a singer and a multi-instrumentalist focussed on guitar and sonic textures, both interested in contemporary production techniques and modern pop contexts, and both very much influenced by the art-rock movements of the original progressive rock age, the post-punk era and the dance revolution of the late '80s and early '90s. Tim's response to the suggestion included his digression on Crimson's history. Tim's something of a pop theorist as well as a pop musician: owners of "The Great Deceiver" will find a letter he wrote to Robert on page 48 of the accompanying booklet. He replied more or less as follows (I've edited it down a bit): "Ermmm... I think it would be a more contemporary unit.. I think the way Crimson started off, they were a great example of a band who were sort of bouncing off the contemporary energies of the late '60s and producing something more far-reaching and futuristic, and also more traditional. And I think there's a brilliant balance on the first four Crimson albums of classic songs, jarring soundscapes, and the future and tradition all melting to produce something beyond the sum of the parts. "I think with the legendary groundbreaking "Larks' Tongues In Aspic" album - "Starless And Bible Black", "Red", that trilogy - the band had certainly found a future space, but had lost a lot of the heart and the classic songwriting, a lot of the emotional resonance, of the early work. I think that when they got together again in the '80s with "Discipline" that they were reflecting what was happening at the time, though perhaps not in as far-reaching a way as, say, Talking Heads' "Remain In Light". I think the interesting thing is that Crimson in '69 were the present-plus; Crimson '74 were the future; and Crimson circa '81, I kind of feel, were responding perhaps belatedly to the Afro-ethnic New Wave influences that Peter Gabriel, Talking Heads and Brian Eno had been dealing with. I think "Discipline" is a superb album but I maybe feel that it's a year, or two years, behind its time. "And when they got together again in the '90s... Y'know, I strongly feel that it's a "Red" for the Internet generation. It's a superb band who are quite wonderful at being King Crimson, and although I can hear that maybe they're attempting to take back from what bands like Nine Inch Nails and Nirvana have taken from them, I'm not sure they're doing it with the same abandon or contemporary relevance. I saw them live and I've heard the albums, and I do think that as superb musicians living the Crimson dream they are unsurpassed, and "THRaKaTTak" is the best representation of that, perhaps: "VROOOM", as well, was quite a superb work in process. But what I think they've lost is maybe the ability to anticipate the future, and maybe also the ability to combine genuinely contemporary songs with their own unique Crimson spirit. "Perhaps, yes, I do feel that with players of the calibre of Bruford, Levin and Fripp in No-Man, and perhaps contemporary songs of the calibre of "My Revenge On Seattle" or "Shell Of A Fighter" (NB - songs from No-Man's "Wild Opera" and "Flowermouth" albums, both featuring RF), that perhaps the meeting place would've been quite a superb and far-reaching one... Perhaps the Crimson that would've resulted would've been very different and maybe more universal in the way that "In The Court Of The Crimson King" was. Because I think that one thing that the early Crimson had was an ability to write beautiful melodies and songs, and also an ability to embellish the basic ideas with wonderful production and performances from artists from the classical and jazz worlds. "Lizard", maybe, being my favourite King Crimson album. I think that when the Crimson of today try to be something other than Crimson, they struggle. I think that as pop songwriters they don't have it. Again, I don't particularly want to be critical about musicians I admire, but... um... I think that their improvisational capacities and their individual identities are quite superb and quite breathtaking, but their attempts towards making contemporary pop music leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe that's not the intention... "I think it would be an interesting meeting. I think that perhaps we could discipline the songwriting, and we could actually involve ourselves in much more contemporary production, which I think would really benefit King Crimson. I think Fripp, Levin and Bruford could certainly give us a firepower that would be inspirational to us. Yes, I think the meeting would be profitable and, at least to my taste, would be more far-reaching than what Crimson are doing now." Probably one of the more assertive and brazen statements made by a Crimson collaborator in a while! The No-Man site is at http://www.collective.co.uk/noman and the complete interview itself can be accessed directly at http://www.collective.co.uk/noman/speak.html cheers, Dann Chinn dchinn at btinternet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:18:43 +0200 From: Valerie RESTREPO Subject: collectors club Hi there you all! I bought yesterday the release of Volume One of The Collectors King Crimson by Pony Canyon/Discipline, the box contains the three first CDs edited by the club and a booklet with the Diary postings (July 98 to December 98). They are spectacular. I still haven't subscribed yet because I'm not comfortable giving away my credit card number by the net. Now I'll have to go to the post office and by a money order in pounds in order to subscribe, I don't want to miss any more releases and have to pay these ridiculous prices that we get here in Paris. It sells for 470 francs at the FNAC and for 412 at Virgin Mega store at the Champs Elysees. I also got yesterday the Project 4 west coast live on Japanese import? It's not fair. Why don't we just get the regular Discipline CDs at a normal price? By the way it's an amazing CD. I'm waiting for the new Crimson that is going to take us into the year 2000, I hope that Fripp will invite Eno to co-produce, just kidding-..Why not after all? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:05:01 -0400 From: Jim Bailey Subject: More on Mellotrons > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:32:14 -0700 (PDT) > From: Michael Tanigawa > Subject: Re: Mellotron > > There is a mellotron on Caravan's "Nine Feet Underground", but it appears so > seldom that it is easy to miss. Caravan is mostly inoffensive pop with none of > the menace of the pre-1980 KC. > I would be loath to cast them off so lightly. While there may not have been a great deal of weight in the vocals, they could steam along pretty good instrumentally-wise. Fans of KC's lighter side who aren't aware of Caravan would be wise to at least give them a listen. To keep to the Mellotron theme, an off-shoot of this band and Soft Machine, Matching Mole - whose second LP, we all know, was produced by Mr. Fripp - also used one. In fact, "O, Caroline" on their first album features a Mellotron quite prominently. On Lol Coxhill's "Ear of Beholder" album, there is a track titled "A Selection of Superbly Played Mellotron Codas." Although they only produced one LP, to my knowledge("Garden Shed"), the band England were big M fans. I may even have an interview somewhere with keyboard player Robert Webb (at least I think that was his name), in which he mentions about modifying his machines so that they would play for more than the standard 8 seconds; he may have used loops. Many of the Krautrock bands were also heavy users: Tangerine Dream, Klaus Shultze, Popol Vu, etc. It's probably safe to say that without the Mellotron, prog-rock, space-rock, and most other derivatives would probably not have happened. Either that, or they would've had to go the Barclay James Harvest (another M user) route and hired their own orchestra - a rather expensive proposition methinks. That's all from me for now. Stand by for more, on another tape-related theme. Jim Bailey p.s.: I hope this translates ok; I'm trying a new method for including quotes in this response. If it causes problems, feel free to slap me with a wet kipper, Toby. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:36:33 -0400 From: Jim Bailey Subject: Tape delay > Date: 27 Jul 99 13:37:13 -0700 > From: "David Voci" > Subject: Delay Correction/Insight > > In issue 602, Douglas Otte responded, albeit a bit incorrectly, to my query > regarding the use of onstage tape recorders for sound delay technique: > > >I've been a fan of KS since the mid-70s. I've read >many things by & > >about him, & I've never heard of him using this delay >technique, but I'm > >sure it's possible. In the 70s he did use 2 Revox >reel-to-reel > >machines. If you look closely at the photo inside the >case of the > >remastered "Moondawn" CD, or at some of the photos >inside the "X" LP > >(the "X" CD doesn't include the photos), you can see 2 >tape machines at > >.with a one-tape > >loop. > > I'd like to offer the additional information of the fact that while this > effect was utilised by Klaus Schulze and subsequently by alot of others my > question was one of trying to determine who did it first...One individual > has suggested Terry Riley which I tend to believe as Klaus does mention > this innovator in some of his CD liner notes...Fripp/Eno's 'No > Pussyfooting' puts their use at 1973 so that's the earliest that I know of. > A picture of two Revoxes set up in this configuration also appears inside the sleeve of Stomu Yamas'ta's "Floating Music" LP. I can't hear any obvious evidence of it on the record, however. As for the origins of the technique, Terry Riley seems to be odds-on favourite. As far as I've been able to determine (and I've been searching for over twenty years), he developed it at the San Francisco Tape Music Centre some time in the late-'50s - early-'60s, and called it a "Time Lag Accumulator." Check out "Poppy Nogood and the Phantom Band" for a good example. Pauline Oliveros - another SFTMC alumnus - created a piece in 1966 here at the University of Toronto electronic music centre called "I of IV" using the same technique. I have been using it myself since the late-'70's, with many interesting results. (Shameless plug: I've got an LP available for trade that has two tape-delay pieces on it, one of which is a little Frippertronic-ish. If you've got something and want to swap, let me know at the address below - NOT the one which will probably appear on the header to this posting. Thanks.) TTFN. Jim Bailey jimb at ehmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:46:14 EDT From: FracturedJ at cs dot com Subject: Something that never would happen but is cool to waste time Imagine The double trio line up of King Crimson playing a track list consisting of...... 1) Peace (A Theme) 2)B'Boom 3) Thrack 4)Thee of a Perfect Pair 5)Indicipline 6)Larks Tongue in Aspic pt.3 ...............On Mtv's Unplugged!!!!! Encore ;Forty Six and Two originaly by Tool! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 07:10:47 PDT From: "Jay+ Nittoli" Subject: Adrian Belew-Buffalo 7/30 Had the pleasure of seeing the last date of the summer tour last night. A perfect evening of music. Adrian appeared to be having as much fun as we all did! ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 99 14:03:24 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: RE: RED I have to admit that I was really rather late in getting into King Crimson. Sure in the mid-seventies I picked up ITCOTCK, but hey, by then it was a bonafied cult classic. I always use to wonder what LTIA and SABB sounded like. In 1973-1974, I always looked at those lp's and even remember seeing USA. But I never really got beyond ITCOTCK. Although I read in CIRCUS and ROLLING STONE about the founding of that particular lineup, I never investigated them. Then in 1976 I went to college in Virginia. Well you know how freshman years can be, and mine was no different. During that fall semester I was pledging for a club, and that kept me pretty busy. But in the fall of 1976, I happened to come across a copy of RED on Atlantic Records in the college bookstore cutout bin. I was feeling mighty depressed. So I saw it was on sale for $1.99! I thought wow, a King Crimson lp in cutout. So I plopped down my $2.00 dollars and small change and got back to my dorm room and started playing it. RED of course came out in 1974, after USA. And as I recall disappeared shortly after its release. The band consisted of: Palmer-James/lyrics, John Wetton/Bass, and Robert Fripp/Guitar. Plus additional guests: Mel Collins/sax, Dave Cross/Violin/Mellotron and others to numerous to mention. RED Side One: Red (6:20) Fallen Angel(6:00) One More Red Nightmare(7:07) Side two: Providence(8:08) Starless(12:18) The first thing that struck me was how really depressing and scary this album was/is. I think after I first played it in 1976 it depressed me so much that I was reluctant to play it again! So it wound up sitting in my record collection unplayed for years until 1981, when I dumped it. But even in 1976 I thought "Red" was a great tautologus instrumental. It is so perfectly constructed that there are no openings to jam out of it. It reminds me of a spear point traveling through the air after it has been thrown. It is that perfectly crafted and executed. "Fallen Angel" was when the depression set in. Wetton's baleful voice and the general feel of this tune as a downer tune hit home with me. "One more Red Nightmare" drove this feeling home. For a while I could not get the song out of my mind. It summed up how I was feeling that fall of 1976. Side one of the album then ended quite abruptly with a fast cut. "Nightmare"'s ending was stark indeed. I had not heard an ending quite like it at the time. "Providence"(live inprov. at Providence R.I.), started side two with what I thought was a wimper. This song really did nothing for me in 1976. But "Starless" was different again! It re-enforced the desolate feeling this lp left me with. I love "Starless" now, but in 1976 it made me even more depressed. I only played RED several times in my college years. Boy I thought, this album is a really depressing one. I actually got into Eno and King Crimson in the eighties. I bought DISCIPLINE as soon as it appeared. I then began buying every Crimson and Eno lp I could get my hands on. Alas those went the way of the used record stores in the late ninties, after I acquired the complete Crimson catalogue(sans EARTHBOUND and USA) on CD. But once again, Crimson tapes on EG began appearing for $1.99 in record stores in the ninties so I bought them. And down in Long Beach Island I saw RED on sale as A $1.99 cassette. So I bought it once again. I have had RED on Atlantic records, EG records, CD, and Cassette. This particular album has been in and out of my record collection several times. Finally, it rested in my collection on CD and cassette. jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:12:34 EDT From: BAnde12753 at aol dot com Subject: DGM Yhe final DGM club cds have been recieved. When are the new applications going to be sent out for club 7 ----> ? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 01:07:51 EDT From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: ET & Star Wars Meet! Okay. I've been awfully quiet lately. This is probably a good thing. However, I just HAD to tell you about something on the web that isn't a waste of time (finally). Some guy has put together a translator (a la babelfish) to turn humanspeak into something that Jar-Jar Binks from Star Wars would say. Just go to this site, then have him take you to ET. Stupid, but worth a look. And NO, I am not in any way involved with this site, apart from my recent visit. http://www.hit-n-run.com/jarjar.html Looking forward to CGT in Colorado in August. Yipee! Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:59:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Cream & Mellotrons Michael Tanigawa wrote: > > >Here's what I could come up with in 5 minutes. > [snip] >The Graham Bond Organisation and Cream are from the >'60s and so aren't included in this list. > >Graham Bond is said to have introduced the mellotron to rock >music. However I don't know to what extent he used the >instrument. I have not been able to find any of his albums. > >Cream's use of the mellotron is debatable. I have heard that >the "mellotron" on "Badge" and "White Room" is actually >Clapton's guitar recorded several times over, but don't quote > me on that. Looking at the boxed set, _Those Were The Days_, it has Felix Pappalardi listed as playing viola, organ pedals, trumpet, tonette, Swiss hand pedals, piano, mellotron and bass. Unfortunately, it doesn't say on what tracks (although many of them are obvious). I then perused Jack Bruce's _Willpower_, and it has FP listed as playing violas, not mellotron. --Jeremy ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #604 ********************************