Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #598 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 598 Sunday, 11 July 1999 Today's Topics: me, soccer, bill, and my thrak t-shirt King Crimson Collectors Club Year 2: what can we expect? Re: Fracture is overrated Re: Fracture Is Overrated re:1981, '82 setlists? (Stephen T. Kilpatrick) Re: Fracture for Orchestra! [ET #597] Fracture - The Truth What *IS* the THRAK cover? A Crimson Moment 81 tour Musical terrorism. Michael Giles King Crimson News group? John Paul Jones Promo CD Live at Jacksonville U.K. Collectors Club releases? Fracture is *rated Classical composers influencing Mr. Fripp Fernandes Guitar catalog 1998-99 EXPOSURE - Fripp / Sylvian Goldberg B.L.U.E. Live Artist shop and the Great Deciever Boxed Set Dungeons and Dragons Fripp off '81 Crimson Just released: Fripp, Wetton, Hammill and others on new charity CD London Evening Standard; english; Fracture More on Crimso/Dead Heads Laundrette ProjeKcts & B.L.U.E. KC OBSERVATIONS FROM CALIFORNIA KC/Dead Fwd: Why did crimso keep breaking up in the 70's and other related discussio TapTech III: Nov 6-7, 1999 RE: Chrimso & The Dead 'Cirkus' font? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 10:54:32 -0400 From: tj Subject: me, soccer, bill, and my thrak t-shirt Last Thursday I ventured to the impressive Jack Kent Cooke Stadium in the beltway zone of Washington, DC to see two quarter final Women's World Cup soccer matches. I wore my black thrak t-shirt hanging out. After the first match and amongst a very celebratory crowd of 55,000 fans I started my way to visit with a friend and fellow member of dc-et as I had told her I would do so. I had a fortunate misstep on my way and ended up in the wrong place at the right time. Skipping all details: I ended up shaking hands with President Bill Clinton. (Some of you may hate the man. I only voted for him the first time.) I did find my friend and I was way high. I eventually found a plush bar and had a shot of tequila. No he didn't notice the t-shirt. But I asked my fellow dc-eters (we have an e-group now) if this event might be worthy of ET itself. The t-shirt angle hadn't dawned on me at first but I got a few nods in favor. step lightly, tj dc-et #2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 10:54:33 -0700 From: Andy Gower Subject: King Crimson Collectors Club Year 2: what can we expect? I don't know if this is the correct forum, but does anyone know what is expected to be offered by the CC in the next year. I'm not too sure whether to resubscribe or not. Andy Gower ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 18:51:17 GMT From: David Way Subject: Re: Fracture is overrated You really ought to have included "IMHO" in your post! There is an assumption, mostly among practicing musicians of moderate to high skill, that if a musical piece isn't a compositional/technical masterpiece, then it can't be thought of as a good song. I strongly disagree with this conclusion. Both "Fracture" and "Lament", the maligned songs in the post that inspired this one, please me greatly. The bottom line for liking both of these songs is that (to my ears) they sound great, and that is the main, if not only, criterion for my liking any song. The number of songs that move me that are not compositional masterpieces are myriad. (We are talking about "Rock and Roll" after all.) You know, this touches on the old "technique vs. inspiration" debate that has raged in musical circles at least since the Greeks, if not futher back in history. I'd rather hear keyboard compostions from Bach than from Franz Liszt, violin concerti from Vivaldi than from Pagianini, and guitar solos from The Edge than from Frank Zappa. (I know I'll really get in trouble on this list with that last comparison ;) Liszt, Pagianini, and Zappa are credited deservedly for writing pieces which require a high degree of technical skill to play; however, just because a piece is of high technical difficulty doesn't mean it's worth listening to. All three have written many great pieces; they have also written a lot of unlistenable crap. Bach, Vivaldi, and The Edge have written pieces which aren't as technically proficient as many of their contemporaries, but their works are much more euphonious. Therefore, I'll take the latter trio over the former in my music collection. The best of all things would be a combination of technique and inspiration. I think we have this in our beloved Mr. Fripp. Robert usually gets high marks for his technique, and deservedly so; however, he doesn't get enough credit for the soulfullness and inspired nature of his playing. "Lament" and "Fracture" may not be the most technically advanced pieces ever written, but they move me anyway. "A Sailor's Tale" and "Starless" thrill me endlessly, not because of the techique involved, but because Robert just plain wails and rocks on them. Well, I believe I've made my point. Questioning people's tastes because a song may be compositionally-challenged (in one person's opinion) is pretentious. David P.S. I realize that the comparison of trios above may seem far-fetched in the opinions of some. I made the trios somewhat incongruous on purpose to make my point. I by no means to completely equate the talent levels of each of the members of each trio. Enough said. P.P.S. I think I'll end with a Latin proverb: De gustibus non est disputandum. - "About tastes there can be no dispute." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 04:36:50 +0700 From: "Dave Lumenta" Subject: Re: Fracture Is Overrated Stop listening with your head. I don't think most people enjoy or dislike (well, maybe David Hudson does) a composition just for sake of its 'polyrhythmics', 'modulations', 'series', 'whole tone scales', 'structure','phrasing', 'redundancy', 'contrapuncts', 'minimalist', 'ahh they're awful because they play 4/4'....all dominating those often overrational discussions enjoyed by snob high-culturalist music critics, narrow-minded prog rock fans or green-faced music students. Music is more than 'form'. "Music is not in the notes, but rather `music is a quality organized in sound.' That quality may be there even if the actual (played and sounding) music isn't anything special from a compositional point of view. Indeed, that quality may be present in a single note, or in silence itself. In the Western tradition of musical composition, these ideas don't quite make it...." (Robert Fripp, Tower Records' Pulse magazine, 1985) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 22:51:10 -0400 From: J A Sontag Subject: re:1981, '82 setlists? (Stephen T. Kilpatrick) Mr. Kilpatrick writes: "What were the typical running orders for these [1981-82] shows? Did they simply play the Discipline album live at the 1981 shows or were there other songs or improvs?" I saw the Discipline tour at the Tower Theatre in Upper Darby (essentially Philadelphia) PA. They played the entire "Discipline" album, "Neal & Jack & Me" (which Adrian introduced by saying that "Robert likes to call this song 'Absent Lovers'"), "Red", an instrumental version of what became "Neurotica" (which, if I remember correctly, was not introduced by any name), and, as an encore, an improv which led into "Larks II". As far as the order, I remember that they led off with "Discipline", followed by "Red" (Adrian said, "Welcome to an evening of words and music by King Crimson. This song has only one word, and that word is 'Red'."). I do not recall the rest of the running order, except that the encore (as mentioned above) was an improv/"Larks II". Though a relatively short set overall (they actually played two separate gigs at the Tower that night, of which I saw the first) it was absolutely stunning. The next year the "Beat" tour came to the Mann Music Center in Philly. They played the entire "Discipline" album, and all of "Beat" except for "Two Hands" and "Requiem"; they also played "Red" and "Larks II". I cannot recall the actual order of performance. Incidentally, of the 5 KC shows I've seen (the "Islands" tour - saw it in Roanoke VA; and the "Discipline", "Beat", "3 Of A Perfect Pair", and "Thrak" tours - all in Philly), my favorite was the "Beat" show. IMHO, at this point the 1981-1984 band was at the point where they had that perfect combination of being experienced with both the material and each other without reaching the point of such overfamiliarity (and uncertainty of where to go next) that it seemed they were bored and/or going through the motions, which is the unfortunate impression I got from the "3 Of A Perfect Pair" tour (a feeling which, for me, in only reinforced by the "Absent Lovers" collection). While the 1982 tour has been documented by the "Frejus" and "Cap D' Adge" releases, I do not believe either of those shows were up to the one I saw (though I am willing to admit that being at a performance may leave one with a different opinion than listening to it afterward). Perhaps we shall see a Collector's Club release of the "Discipline" tour or the US "Beat" tour? These would be, I believe, tremendously enjoyed by all KC fans. JA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 10:21:02 +0100 From: Matthew Nolan Subject: Re: Fracture for Orchestra! [ET #597] > >FRACTURE IS THE BOMB!!! > > I want to hear this piece scored out for symphony orchestra. > I don't want to do the scoring! But I want to hear it this > way. I think it would be awesome. Even a string quartet > version would be great. Anybody know the Kronos Quartet > intimately? - S. Talvin Singh is the man to score it! Listen to his work for Bjork and on his own solo stuff. He could also inject some pretty mean tabla work too. I'm sure he's busy though.... Regards, Matt Nolan. =================================================================== --Day Job: VLSI Design Engineer--Oak Technology Ltd.--Bristol--UK-- --Evenings and Weekends: Sound Engineer--Producer---Teeth Records-- --Drummer--The Rob Beadle Triangle Band-- http://www.rbtb.co.uk/ -- =================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:54:27 -0700 From: Lewis Southers Subject: Fracture - The Truth Don't tell anyone, but on 7/4/99 9:37 AM Elephant Talk said >Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:36:29 +0100 >From: "David Hudson" >Subject: Fracture is overrated > >What is this love affair with Fracture? It's a series of >whole tone scale riffs untidily stitched together. Well, yeah...but it rocks. [etc] -Lewis Her leg is bent in one direction Like a symbol in math A symbol meaning greater than Soul Coughing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:13:05 -0400 (CLT) From: "Miguel Farah F." Subject: What *IS* the THRAK cover? Hi all (this is my first mail in ET, blah blah blah, I did read the FAQ, blah blah blah). I bought THRAK last week, and I sill can't figure out what the hell the cover is. My first thought was "maybe is a car door with the handle broken off", but I don't think that's it. Does anyone have an idea? -- MIGUEL FARAH // miguel at webhost dot cl #include // http://www.webhost.cl/~miguel <*> "Trust me - I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:56:40 -0400 From: "David Gorrill" Subject: A Crimson Moment Mark Cohen definitely opened a can of worms with the Grateful Dead discussion. Not to belabor the point, but I thought I'd toss in this cookie. Crimson came into my life with everything Canterbury and "progressive" in '73. The Dead entered in "77. Since then, music has continued to be an inspiration. My wife appreciates my musical diversity, yet seldom puts anything on herself. She grew up in a house where her brother played Zappa and the Dead, and had experienced '80s Crimson at UMass Amherst. Recently, the house was empty and I had the Dead playing while I was cleaning. Harpur College from 5/2/70 contains a ripping Viola Lee Blues, the raga crescendo is a wall of guitars. As Christine came in with the girls from shopping, she said,"...Is this King Crimson???" I smiled and went back to my cleaning. Check it out. Peace David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:09:43 -0400 From: Rich Williams Subject: 81 tour > >"Paul A. O'Rear" wrote > > >I saw Crimson back in '81 at a gig in NYC (I think it was the Ritz or the >Palladium). One thing I remember distinctly and that I would love to get a >recording of was a pre-Beat version of Neurotica that they were then calling >Manhattan. There were no words at that time as far as I remember, but it was >so powerful and intense, not to mention appropriate there in downtown >Manhattan that I'll never forget it. Scary to think that was almost 20 years > These shows were at the Savoy..... 5 or was it 6?, shows in 3 >nights. first week of november The highpoint of the tour, and yes, >everyone I know who heard the original Manhattan, prefers it to >"Neurotica" , in fact that piece reminded me a lot of Fred Frith's >band Massacre, which was performing around NY in those days >and the notable Ted White wrote; >lot of improvs during the live sets and that the band was >considerably hotter and more interesting on stage than on >record. I saw most of the first two weeks of the fall 81 tour, and a week of the feb /mar 82 shows and I have to disagree. They did improvise on Sheltering Sky, and Indiscipline, they fooled around with the Manhattan/Neurotica structure a bit, and adrians solo on Thela hun Ginjeet would vary from night to night, but that was about it, nothing like the 20 minute improv pieces they did in 73/74, although I do remember them doing some things on the 82 leg that were pretty loose, but they sounded more like compositions in progress than improvs. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:33:01 +0000 From: luisrey Subject: Musical terrorism. To whoever said that Fracture is The Bomb... couldn't agree more... I managed to destroy my earphones (curiously, not my ears) precisely at the time of the final 'explosion'. No amount of volume seemed enough to emphasize the brutality of the attack. I have never posted to the newsletter... but anyway I keep lurking and reading interesting commentaries. I find irritating that people keep comparing Crimson to ELP or Yes or UK or Asia or a long etcetera...(I'm sorry, but a while ago I made the mistake of acquiring some new honey-dripping record from John Wetton and I had to sell it next day, gagging... I hate when some of these sell-out 'progressives' shit on 'sacred' items like 'Starless' or any other truly Great Moments in History) Yes, I agree NOBODY really needs several live recordings from these obsolete dupes... Crimson is a different experience... each concert, each improvisation is a different world. I can't understand that some other people keep saying that legal releases keep making bootleg recordings obsolete... nothing further from the truth. If there's something special about 'poor quality' recordings is that a.- activate your abilities of paying attention and listen carefully and repeatedly (a quality that Fripp most appreciate... I suppose he STILL does.) b.- activate your imagination. Many concerts that have legally come out with lavish professional recordings can't compare to quite a few bootleg recordings that have a lot more 'atmosphere' and sense of fascination. After all we have all grow with bootleg recordings, for good or bad. Many groups should learn how to tape themselves. Not because the performance sounds 'fantastic' it is any better. Contrary to many opinions I found the 'poor recordings' from the Islands period much more exciting... and some of those raw, rather brutal performances are what a truly improvised group should be about. And I'm not comparing them to any period of the KC era(s)... all of them have their own magic. The best DGM release so far has been the Jacksonville 1972 one. The drum and bass demonstrate their time-keeping 'glove of iron' when the band threatens to disintegrate at the end of "Schizoid Man"... amazing, anarchic stuff. And yes... long live Anarchy. Even if I like all facets of KC, I'm disappointed with the latest (90's) incarnation of KC and Fripp's new efforts (in genera)l.I just hope he recovers some of his old self, overcomes the nineties' cold 'ego mystic religious wave' he is immersed in and produces some really worthwhile stuff. The spirit is there... it's just a matter of not being afraid and letting it loose once again. Just my two cents here. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:21:29 +0300 From: "Toni Suominen" Subject: Michael Giles Jonathan Andrews wrote: >I've never heard anyone play the drums like Michael Giles, >whom I >think must be the best drummer they ever had. I wonder what >happened to him >(owns a tobacconist in Redditch maybe?). The last thing i've heard from Mike is that he was supposed to be the drummer on the Robert Fripp/David Sylvian tour, was it '95 or so? But finally, Pat Mastelotto got the tour. So maybe Michael still is in the music business. Toni Suominen tono at mbnet dot fi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:58:30 +0100 From: "Dave Copley" Subject: King Crimson News group? Hi, recently, in the "prog. rock" newsgroup, I asked weather anyone thought that it might be an idea to start a King Crimson newsgroup, to encourage fans to "talk" and discuss whatever issues came up. Loads of people wrote and basically said "yeah, great idea", but a number of people suggested that I ran the idea past ET to see the reaction. So, what do you think guys? Is there a need? Would it be used? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:33:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Percy Subject: John Paul Jones Promo CD Greetings to those who enjoy the Krim de la Crim, Has anyone on the list had the opportunity to hear the new promo EP featuring four songs from the new John Paul Jones solo album? Crim content: JPJ recently signed to DGM and Double trio member Trey Gunn is on the album. Interested in any/all comments. Thanks. Love, Billy Do You Yahoo!? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:14:34 -0400 (GMT) From: "Rafael E. Zamora G." Subject: Live at Jacksonville My main interest for joining to the DGM Collectors Club was to get LIVE AT JACKSONVILLE, but now it is out of stock. And then what happens with people like me who would like to get this recording. I expect that DGM Collectors Club have any pity with us and reissue this item. Rafael Zamora ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 20:40:45 +0200 From: siggy Subject: U.K. Oh bugger.
I've recently received a CD called "Concert Classics vol.4 : U.K." (or something like that, I can' t prove it now, since I borrowed it to someone for one day - not a minute longer!). In case someone doesn't know: the aforementioned CD contains a concert (or a part of it) of a classic U.K. line-up playing songs from their first LP,and what brings me to my today's point, also "Carrying no cross" and "The only thing she needs" from their then forthcoming second LP. Just compare ( if you can) those two tracks played by Holdsworth, Bruford, Jobson and Wetton with versions played by Wetton, Jobson and Bozzio. What a difference! This is what separates men (Bruford, Holdsworth) from the boys (Wetton, Jobson, Bozzio). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 14:53:43 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Collectors Club releases? Hi, folks: The latest Artist Shop newsletter is out and you'll find it in its entirety at . Meanwhile here are some excerpts of interest to Crimson fans. There's a new Japanese import coming out mid to late July that I felt appropriate for placing on our DGM page , King Crimson/DGM Collectors King Crimson! For those of you who missed out on the first three DGM Collectors Club releases, here is your chance to rectify that error (albeit a more expensive chance than had you initially joined the Club)! This Japanese-only release is a three CD collection of rare live shows previously only available through the DGM Collectors Club. Disc one contains tracks from two different shows in '69, disc two has material from a Jacksonville show in '71 and disc three features tracks from a German show in '72. 18 tracks total. No doubt this release may cause a bit of controversy as people thought these releases would only be available through the DGM Collector's Club. To those who may be upset by this, I would like to offer some observations. First, this set is significantly more expensive than if you had gotten the first three releases through DGM. Second, this comes as a set whereas Collector's Club members were able to get these individually and reject any they did not wish. Third, the Japanese market is an entirely different creature than the European and American markets. It's very likely (although I cannot say definitively) that this will be a Japanese only release. And last, the DGM Collectors Club is no doubt a very expensive undertaking for DGM and I don't see them realizing any vast amounts of profit from it. If Pony Canyon (the Japanese label that is putting this out) offered them a good deal, then I see this as a subsidizing of future Collectors Club releases and is therefore to the benefit of the Club members. In other news, Magna Carta has released the new Liquid Tension Experiment featuring Tony Levin! It's no secret in the industry that the first Liquid Tension Experiment album was both a creative and commercial success for Magna Carta Records, the label gambling on the fact that their fan base could take a trip that prog-rock-dangerous and emerge unscathed and, in fact, renewed. It seems that the band felt the same joy in the making that the label felt in the promoting. For, indeed, Mike Portnoy and John Petrucci (both from Dream Theater), bass monster Tony Levin (no resume required), and keyboardist Jordan Rudess (the same line-up as on the first album), had such a great time together that Jordan was tapped for the keyboardist post within Dream Theater. So all of a sudden, Liquid Tension Experiment becomes 3/4 of Dream Theater with the fourth wheel being possibly the most respected bassist in the business, Tony Levin. But this animal is a thornier beast than the lush prog rock of Dream Theater. Liquid Tension Experiment is about fierce creative interaction, a mixture of the spontaneous and the composed, almost violent but good-natured collision (think bumper-cars) countered with periods of solitary introspection. Overall the new album is an even stronger release than the first and is highly recommended!!! I've recently updated out Voiceprint page in a major way. Here are a couple new releases that may interest you. Bass Communion/Bass Communion - Bass Communion's second release continues where its first left off, creating a distinctive and emotionally resonant electro-organic fusion of ambient loop music, minimalism and darkly evocative textures. Bass Communion is Porcupine Tree/No-Man member Steven Wilson. Stylistically it's reminiscent of Brian Eno's and Terry Riley's systems experiments, the dark atmosphere's of Paul Schutze and Thomas Koner and the textural avant-garde of Carl Stone and Moron Feldman. The first 1,000 copies come with a 2 track bonus CD. One track features Robert Fripp and the other collaboraton is with Dutch sound designers, The Square Root of Sub. Tim Bowness and Samuel Smiles/World of Bright Futures - World of Bright Futures is the distinctive debut offering from No-Man singer Tim Bowness and darkly atmospheric Cambridge based trio, Samual Smiles (Mike Bearpark, Peter Chilvers, Myke Clifford). Taking its cue from the timeless and sensuous late night ambience of John Martyn, Arab Strap and Blue Nile mixed with the doomy atmospherics of Leonard Cohen and Mark Eitzel, the album offers a seductive selection of contemporary bedsit classics. Featuring eight original compositions and two covers - Peter Hammill's Ophelia and a bizarre and beautiful makeover of King Crimson's Two Hands - world of Bright Futures smoulders in a twilight reverie of cheap drum machines and high emotions, digital hardware and human heartache. It also features guest appearances from Colin Edwin and Steven Wilson from Porcupine Tree. The latest issue of Expose, #17, is now out ! Highlights of the new issue include a cover story on Bill Bruford's Earthworks. Now onto tour dates. I had the good fortune to catch Adrian Belew Saturday night in Cleveland. It was a great show and I highly recommend it to all. Adrian still has a few more dates for July. You'll find these posted at and also at : Adrian Belew Dates July 12 - Slim's, San Francisco, CA July 14 - Palookaville, Santa Cruz, CA July 15 - Coach House, Santa Barbara, CA July 16 - Coach House, San Juan Capistrano, CA July 17- The Roxy, Los Angeles, CA TBA The Belly Up, San Diego, CA On our import pre-order page you'll find the following impending releases: YES-YESSHOWS '91 Laserdisc Japanese release, the worldwide debut of this 117 minute long performance from 1991. YES-YESSHOWS '91 VHS Japanese release, the worldwide debut of this 117 minute long performance from 1991. (from the Union Tour with Bill Bruford) CIRCUS-CIRCUS LP Reissue, on deluxe 180 gram wax, of rare prog rock album from 1969 that featured Mel Collins before he joined King Crimson. Features the original artwork & original gatefold packaging. On our New Imports page you'll find: BRUFORD,BILL EARTHWORKS-A PART AND YET APART + 1 Japanese edition of the 1999 outing from the jazz-rock band Yes' original drummer has been leading since 1987. Includes live performance of 'If Summer Had It's Ghosts' as a bonus track. 10 tracks total. WETTON,JOHN-NOMANSLAND 1999 live album from the former King Crimson/ Asia/ UK member. Features an all-star line-up that includes David Kilminster (Asia), Martin Orford (IQ) and Steve Christy (Jadis). Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:14:06 -0400 From: David Todd Subject: Fracture is *rated >What is this love affair with Fracture? It's a series of >whole tone scale riffs untidily stitched together. Only one [deletia] >example of this. Fracture is saved by the intensity of the >playing and yes, there are a few seconds in the last part >that are really exciting. But it's a poor composition. Fracture is a pleasant example of theme and variation. But this is beside the point. What, of all your complaints, makes the song "bad"? And please define "untidy"? If your musical training causes you to analyze every song as to it's notational structure and adherence to music theoretical dictates, then I think you are the loser, here. Enjoy it or don't. You don't need to justify not liking a song. Just don't listen it. -- Hacksaw = David Charles Todd BBN Technologies = Hacksaw's Employer Hacksaw's Opinions != BBN Technologies' Opinions Linux understands you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 17:39:21 -0300 From: Daniel Gomez Casanouve Subject: Classical composers influencing Mr. Fripp Dear ETers: perhaps this has been already asked but I missed it. Does anybody know if Mr. Fripp has quoted so called "classical" composers as influencing his music and if so, which one/s? Many of us remember Frank Zappa quoting Edgar Varese as a big influence on his music and I think of KC doing "Mars" or even the wonderful "Prelude: Song of the gulls" from Islands which reveal, from my point of view, a strong connection towards "classical" music. Thanks. Daniel Gomez Casanouve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:47:44 +1000 From: "Craig Jones" Subject: Fernandes Guitar catalog 1998-99 Don't know if this has been mentioned here or not, but there are some nice (what some may call typical) quotes from Belew & Fripp in the 98/99 Fernandes Guitar catalog, about their custom guitars with the Sustainer pickup systems in them: Belew: "Suddenly it's like holding a live wire in your hand. The guitar becomes alive. The Sustainer makes every note you hit sustain and I love the Harmonic mode." Fripp: "Since using my Fernandes Sustainer, I have become the life and soul of any and every party. Guys look at me anxiously from corners of the room, while fawning bimbettes seek my opinions on the fetishings of music's inherent and delineated meaning." (!!) Just thought I'd share... all the best Craig Jones Melbourne, Australia Ketchup Is A Vegetable! good_king_zog at msnNEWTS dot com dot au To reply, remove the obvious amphibian from the above address ------------------------------ Date: 06 Jul 1999 14:42:17 -0500 From: NAUDETE dot MANTOVANI at monsanto dot com Subject: EXPOSURE - Fripp / Sylvian Hi Folks It's maybe too late but.. Exposure was indeed, as it has already been said, played live by Sylvian / Fripp. It does not appeared on the "Damage" CD but it sure did on the LD version of the show. The LD runs about 88 minutes and features all "The First Day" CD songs (But the soundscape "Bringing Down the Light) plus other songs. Some of them appeared on an italian bootleg, some not. Exposure lasts about 5'40 and is superbly played. Background recorded voices of a woman saying "It is impossible to achieve the aim without sufferering" and other Fripp Exposure's album voices were also included. Sylvian sings very slow, there are no screamings and Trey Gunn also say some words in the background. Sylvian plays some keyboards. Mastelloto drumming is also a high point. Michael Brook's guitar sustains song's rythm and Fripp's guitar is, as usual, excellent. In fact the whole show is a must. Too bad the LD is not manufactured anymore. A clerk's friend of mine who used to work in Sao Paulo , Brasil rock gallery found a used copy and showed me. I promptly bought it. Let's hope maybe one day Fripp would release it as a DVD. Ronald Miklos Vogel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 11:57:13 +0900 From: Chanung Park Subject: Goldberg Is there anybody listening to "Goldberg" out there? I received recently a copy of Goldberg by Maria Volk & Flowermouth by No-man from German Music Express, which had not in stock FFWD, Bass Communion & Camilla's Little Secret. Right! I ordered Fripp things not available in USA. Anyway, I'd like to talk about Goldberg this time. I guess it's a jazz-oriented hybrid music. There are some saxes, a trombone & some eletronics, etc. & somebody reads German texts written by Maria Volk. Not so interesting to me. No tension, no impressiveness & no wonder. Mr. Fripp palys frippertronics on 3 tracks. I've listened to it only 3 times since I got it. But can't hear him. IMHO, if any, so weak. I have no idea of each musician except Fripp & Holger Czukay. What did make Fripp contribute for it? Who is Maria Volk? & what kind of a genre is it? Any idea? Cheers! Park ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 16:00:05 CEST From: Dominik Brueckner Subject: B.L.U.E. Live Hi Alexis! There is a B.L.U.E. concert available at LiveConcerts.com!!! Although it's RealAudio, the quality is great. Enjoy, Dominik Brueckner P.S. Does anybody know what "summer 1999" means? The fun I had waiting for the ProjeKCt releases is vanishing.... P.S. Why is it MUCH cheaper (or more expensive, I don't remember exactly, might also be the other way round) to join the collectors' club in the US than in Europe/GB??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:03:40 -0400 From: "David Cohen" Subject: Artist shop and the Great Deciever Boxed Set Wow, from the posting, you'd think only 5 were ever made of the Great Deceiver Boxed set. With the shipping and extra postage, looks like this could run someone around $80. But I still see this around the record stores either used copies or even new copies at the chain stores. This isn't THAT hard to find and with all the other live Crimson, one is probably better off waiting till they find and save the $10-15 in postage you'll be forking out for the box. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 12:44:51 -0400 From: CCAC Network User dn42 Subject: Dungeons and Dragons Fripp off I didnt know who to write too so please forward this message. I am not normally a rat but I love Fripp and all the KC players and I understand thier music rights. I play Dungeons and Dragons religously and I was perplexed to see them rip off KC recently. We started a new system called Living City and the first part (3 scenarios) were called Return of the Fire Witch. I thought it a coincidance until they sent my brother (then the Dungeon master) the 3rd booklet. He says to me "Whats the technical definition of plagarism." He shows me the booklet with lyrics, slightly changed, called Return of the Fire Witch. He said they have no other credits. I said at least it should say Sinfeild but also Lake, at least. Nothing, no credits whatsoever. So we played. I felt bad, so I had to write something. I dont care if you you dont write back but at least tell someone who can do something. I dont hate this company that created this, not at all, but I write stories and lyrics and I find it really F-in' stressful when other writers, with jobs, make money from other peoples ideas. I probably wouldnt mind with an Alanis Moresette song, but I have to with KC. This TSR company and others just didnt give any credit anywhwere! PS I am really exited that Belew decided to come to Pittsburgh, thanks Doug Nowicki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:57:05 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: '81 Crimson Recent posts regarding the set lists, sound etc. of the '81 Crimson have been quite interesting. Ted White mentioned the improvs from this quartet, but based on recordings and personal experience I think it's safe to say that by '82 the quartet had cut group improvs (beyond individual "solos") to a minimum. If the quartet was more free during '81, perhaps this would be an interesting period for a club release. (What I would really like is an entire release of just the improvs, but I know better than to even ask). While I'm here and mentioning Mr. White, I think his summary of Crimson history was excellent. No, there wasn't anything "new" (why would there be?), but this post would be an excellent "starting point" for those new to Crimson: the essential history in a nutshell. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:29:27 +0100 From: "Nick W" Subject: Just released: Fripp, Wetton, Hammill and others on new charity CD Dear all I wish to plug a new double CD (at single CD price of 13GBP) with specially commissioned and previously unreleased works by Robert Fripp, John Wetton, Peter Hammill, Rick Wakeman and many others. The CD named 'The Sky Goes All the Way Home' was two years in the making, and is inspired by the same words uttered by a severely impaired Downs Syndrome girl, Claire Franklin, seeking reassurance when miles from home. Each piece contributed freely to the album is inspired by this line and Claire's world. All profits from sales go to Claire's special school and the Downs Syndrome Association. Find out more at http@//www.zoo.co.uk/~nw/thesky Thanks Nick Willder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 17:00:33 -0700 From: "Scott Steele" Subject: London Evening Standard; english; Fracture A London Evening Standard reader posts about Fripp: >Incidentally, he was described as a "rock superstar" in the London Evening Standard this week; in connection with his selling a house he owns with Toyah Wilcox. Any chance of posting the complete text, or getting a website? >Excuse my approximative english. Thank you for posting in a language that is difficult for you. I appreciate your effort. >What is this love affair with Fracture? It's a series of whole tone scale riffs untidily stitched together. I don't agree, I think the stitching is tidy. >Only one is good (the one that's played fast) I'm sorry for you. I think they're all good. I hope you can find another composition to enjoy. (I like the fast one too.) I even like the variations between Fracture renditions on The Great Deceiver boxed set. I suppose TGD was meant for maniacs like me. >and in the King Crimson tradition it is mercilessly milked. Theme and variations, man. I hear the variations. I like the variation toward the end when the bass, guitar, violin are barely playing, and the drummer is scraping the drumsticks' tips vertically over the cymbal. Scree. >Fracture is saved by the intensity of the playing and yes, there are a few seconds in the last part that are really exciting. But it's a poor composition. In the last part, Bruford says "Whoo!" I agree with Bill's sentiment. I think it's a great composition. I hear someone leaping out a plate glass window at the end when Bruford hits the thundersheet. Vive la difference, - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 21:46:40 -0400 From: Douglas Otte Subject: More on Crimso/Dead Heads > At this rate, Robert will have reached > saturation in about two or three years. This is because, Crimso/Fripp, like > most British progressive rock is more or less the same show every night. So, > for instance, you really only would want about three really excellent sound > quality recordings of any given tour which covers all the material. How many > recordings do you need of Crimso from 72 with Boz, or 84, or 95? > That's my quandary, now that the DGCC has become the KCCC. I've enjoyed this year's releases, but was beginning to feel sated on live KC, & was looking forward to varied (KC-related) artists next year. Now I don't know if I want to rejoin or not. If I don't, I think I'll regret it when my buds in DC-ET write about the latest goodies they received in their mailboxes. -- ============================================ "Ah!...so that's what an invisible barrier looks like." - Wally, "Time Bandits" ============================================ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:28:53 +0200 From: "toujours.plus" Subject: Laundrette I would like to thank "Brian !@#$%" for his advices about Laundry.... My english is not that good so i hope he will forgive me if i talked about LEs Claypool as "former" bassist of Primus. I entented to say he was at the origin of the band ; i really didn't knew the meaning of "former". Now i know... And tlking about Laundry, i've bought the latest one MOTIVATOR which for the moment seems darker, more complex but not more interesting. Please note that the parallel i was trying to do between bands and KC is here once again obvious : on their previous cd, the bass player was playing Chapman Stick. On this one, he manipulates Warr Guitar too. Coincidences ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:50:09 EDT From: osmirc the red Subject: ProjeKcts & B.L.U.E. Whilst we wait for official releases of live material from these fractals, anyone caring to exchange anticipatory recordings is invited to send a message my way... -osmirc- ------------------------------ Date: 08 Jul 99 17:27:01 -0700 From: "David Voci" Subject: KC OBSERVATIONS FROM CALIFORNIA Good Day to All, I'd like to make a few points from my newly re-discovered appreciation for KC : 1)I happen to like David Cross and his involvement in KC's early seventies lineup...He seems to get slammed alot but in my opinion, he fit in quite nicely with Crimson's overall wall of sound from that era. Alot of the improv's and songs on the Great Deceiver set are jam intensive and at times, very hypnotic/trancey and what adds flavor to this is David Cross. I don't know if I would like this set as much if he were missing. Of course, it's hard to come close to the intensity of this sound quality so really, all members of this lineup are on full output. Take away any one of them and you would come up short. 2)I am also a big fan of the Mellotron and whether in tune or out(GDeceiver again), still a beautiful instrument to listen to, giving an ethereal enhancement to the already spooky sound. Not being a musician, I really can't tell when it's out of tune. 3)Believe that 'Doctor Diamond' is a fantastic tune on the Great Deceiver Set...Extremely emotional. 4)Who does all the talking between numbers on GD? Wetton? Was going to ask this but found out by listening closely to a voice intro improv on disc 1 of GD, that it probably is Fripp. 5)There's a CD I purchased awhile back by an English 3 piece called called Refusal to Comply by a the band 'Groon'...Reason I purchased it was because of the bassist Algy Ward who used to front another Brit band called Tank that I like...This is an instrumental drums/bass/quitar CD that is jazzy/almost metallic in overall sound. I forgot that this was indeed a KC title from Young Person's Guide LP that I own. 6)Found out, much to my displeasure, that if I joined the KC Collectors Club, that CD's 2(jacksonville/72) and 3(Bremen, live, 1972?)are out of print...I would join but...Anybody want to sell theirs? Along these lines, will Fripp/DGM ever consider releasing these to the general public as I've read they don't think the sound quality is good enough to make them an official release? These 2 CD's would make a great double disc. File under FFTGFFR(food for thought, grounds for further research). Getting these topics onto an email relieves me some, Enjoy, dv ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 19:56:10 -0400 From: Phil Subject: KC/Dead Friends - At Mark Cohen's suggestion I share with you these little anecdotes concerning KC and the Dead. For years I drove a '70 VW Bus with multiple Dead iconography. The LTIA and Discipline logos also on the bus drew the most inquiries. The bus was, coincidentally, "Red." I never understood the whole "prog rock" vs. "psychedelic rock" mindset. For that matter, whether it's rock, jazz, classical (whatever), as long as it's well executed with passion, stirs something within and pushes your experience of the richness of life and the human spirit, what do the labels matter? For instance my 16 year old guitarist son loves Tool, Pumpkins, Korn and Portrait (local Atlanta), but understands/emulates Fripp's muse/genius - both KC and soundscaping; it's always fun to tag along to the music stores when he tries new equipment and breaks into "Schizoid Man." Parting thought: can somebody get Kronos Quartet to record "Exiles" or "Fracture?" Better yet, with Fripp on board? May the Great Spirit hold you close. Phil Foster ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 02:21:44 PDT From: Mathew Richardson Subject: Fwd: Why did crimso keep breaking up in the 70's and other related discussion. Some interesting coments were made about the peice "Fracture" > and general state of music apprectiation from critics and audience > as well. I being a musician of 17 years have personally stuggled > with why a piece like "fracture" would not get as much recognition > as say "Stairway to Heaven" or some other overplayed rock > anthem. [etc] PS. Incidently "fracture" contains alot of improvisation within, and in particular the rythym section. I read an interview with Fripp stating that the guitar parts were that most structured part of the tune with Bruford and Wetton spontaniously creating a back drop. You can hear this for certain on the Great Deciever box set. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:35:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam Levin Subject: TapTech III: Nov 6-7, 1999 On the weekend of November 6th and 7th 1999 the 3rd annual TapTech seminar will be held at Orion Sound Studios in Baltimore, Maryland. The primary instructor for the weekend will be Markus Reuter. All players of multi-stringed two handed tap instruments are welcome to attend regardless of experience level, string configuration, tuning or instrument make. Previous participants have attended with 8 and 12 string Warr Touch Guitars, 10 String Austin Douglas Touch Guitars, 10 and 12 string Chapman Sticks as well as standard 6 and 7 string electric guitars. The lesson plan for the weekend will include playing technique, repertoire, establishing the beat (body percussion class), playing posture, practice concepts, tunings/string configurations, improvisation and more. While primarily focusing on group work, there will also be the opportunity for personal meetings. German Touch Guitarist Markus Reuter is a professional musician working with the groups the Europa String Choir and CENTROZOON as well being an accomplished solo artist with two albums "Taster" and "Containment" released to date. Markus is also a professional psychologist and a coach for artists/musicians. He writes a regular column for Touchstyle Quarterly and is the main instructor for the "Tapeadores" courses for tapping musicians held in Spain. For more information, please see http://www.DarkAether.Net/tt/ ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 99 14:09:52 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: RE: Chrimso & The Dead I was quite suprised and relieved? to read such fine and insightful posts by Mark Cohen and Rajeev. I am also very much into progressive English bands as well as San Francisco psychedelia. And the more Dick's Picks that surface(see numbers 7, 12 and 14 for a comparison), the more the analogy posed by Mark rings true. San Francisco bands tended towards the jazzy end anyway(see Santana, Lotus). But I don't think that King Crimson concert of any era plays their compositions note for note. Proof of that is The Great Deceiver Box Set by the 74' incarnation, as well as Nightwatch. There is some kind of progreesive/psychedelia rift that is apparent, even on this wavelength. But I am also a huge Zappa fan. I think that Chrimson of 74' and The Grateful Dead of the same era have more commonality than differences. The same could be said for their respective 90's incarnations. I too salivate each time (GDM) releases a DP, but as of yet, have to delve into (DGM) archival releases(one day). I never saw King Crimson as static as far as blowing on their instruments. And the Yes of the seventies fits into that concept. Genesis, on the otherhand fits Mark's descrition as playing static compositions. I love all the various Dead permutations also. For musique concrete see Dafos, Infra Red Roses, and Seastones. How different are those from ThrAK AttAK and Boom Boom? jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:25:57 -0400 From: gnomie at ix dot netcom dot com Subject: 'Cirkus' font? I recently received a postcard announcing the availability of "Cirkus." Could someone please inform me of the name of the font used for the album's title? It's quite good! Thanks much, and I do hope this wasn't a waste of anyone's time. Feel free to reply privately. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #598 ********************************