Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #581 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 581 Thursday, 1 April 1999 Today's Topics: NEWS: Updated release dates Re: Reaction to New Line Up Re: Sometimes God Smiles the Exiles 'mystery' A new club Adrian's live sampling and Robert's SS Posters? Humour: Progressive Rock Toyah & NMtB Exiles Flute Daphne and Eleanor re: Professional vs. non-professional musicians LPs for trade Dream Lineup (Take Two) Cactus encore screw-up Cross' flute 'Amatuer musicians' DGM France 1982 release The "new" KC reaction to reaction to new line up Adrian on NPR's "Anthem" Jamie Muir/Derek Bailey & the Music Improvisation Company RE: where to get...Jamie Muir and Derek Bailey PROJEkCT TWO - Live Groove Review Reaction to reaction to new line up re: pro vs. non-pro Yes Virginia, Dean Martin once sang "In the Court of the Crimson King" "I talk to the wind" with female singer KC live in 82 too Sean Malone Clinic in Eugene, Oregon Gitbox Brief Quote/Update from Fripp Is copying USA LP and gifting it bootlegging, pirating, or simple human kind ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:24:26 EST From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: Updated release dates Just a heads up that David Singleton has provided me with the latest info he has concerning upcoming KC, RF and ProjeKct release, and I have updated the appropriate web pages with this info. Some of the info remains tentative and subject to change and delays by various parties (not just DGM). Of note: - Live in Broadway 1995, looks like it will be the 5th DGM CC release in June. - The upcoming ProjeKcts box set will likely include a P3 CD. - A "Best Of..." ProjeKcts CD is planned as a separate release from the box sets. Other info can be found at ET Web. Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:25:42 -0500 From: William Bajzek Subject: Re: Reaction to New Line Up that's very interesting... i disagree entirely with your whole post... here are a few points to consider: a) King crimson, from the start, has always had a blend of "muscular" and "wimpy" songs... although a better analogy would be prog and pop songs. they've been there from the start... having belew's role in the band increased does not mean that the band will only play pop songs... i can guarantee you Adrian knows that there'd just be no point for King Crimson to be the Adrian Belew Backup Band and i can guarantee you Fripp wouldn't allow that, either. b) After hearing so much Bruford in the past few years, i'm looking forward to hearing more Mastellotto in Crimson... I think he has a really interesting, forward-looking style that i enjoy a lot, and frankly, i'm starting to grow a little tired of Bruford... He's a very talented and creative musician, but i've come to realize that you get pretty much what you expect out of him... no matter how complex and interesting a drum pattern may be, there's really no surprise that he was able to come up with it. I guess i'm just ready to hear a new voice in there... someone who i've not been so overexposed to that i can take interest in. c) I really love Gunn's sense of style and composition and don't see him at all as being a Fripp puppet... certainly that he is a student of Fripp is obvious, but i can hear a very strong and distinct personality in his playing that I admire quite a bit. and finally, d) the new lineup would make it quite a bit easier for Crimson to break into new territory... Bruford and Levin are wonderful players, but they're also quite experienced and have a lot of baggage following them around. This is not meant to knock them at all; but with Gunn and Mastellotto, KC's got a much fresher pallette to work with, with Adrian they've got someone who can write (imo) wonderful songs and of course, under the direction of Fripp, a group of musicians who collectively add up to a new, powerful king crimson. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 03:25:50 -0400 From: Manuel Subject: Re: Sometimes God Smiles To the gentleman who asked about SGS II tracks: Yes, SGS II contains abridged versions of many songs plus some complete ones, but either way this is a superb compilation. I simply love to play it from beginning to end. The music has contrasts but also continuity; it all belongs together. This music, recorded by several different artists, seems to come from the same "place"; wich says a lot about the company of our hero from Dorset. I humbly recommend, even if you don't own a DVD player yet (Come on, someday you will!) to order the Deja Vroom DVD. I did it and it came with SGS II as an extra. It made my day; not to mention it's an incredible bargain. Manuel. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:15:53 -0700 From: Steve Subject: the Exiles 'mystery' In ET#580, Phil Toudic mentioned the flute being played on CC#3's 'The Rich Tapestry of Life', and the fact that this ties in with the 'Who played the flute part on Exiles' mystery in the ET FAQ (I wondered if anyone else had noticed this - I thought I was hearing things when I first played The Beat Club CD). Despite leaving the solution somewhat open-ended (due to the lack of a specific credit to Cross), I had hoped it was apparent that Cross played the flute. From the Jan. 10, 1999 update on this question: "On page 59 of 'The Great Deceiver' booklet, David Cross mentions even playing the flute onstage. It seems that Cross is the most likely candidate, until a participant from the sessions ends the controversy." I'll update the FAQ again to indicate mention the flute on 'Rich Tapestry', but I'd say we can all safely assume that the KC mystery flautist is David Cross. Another of Life's mysteries solved ;-) -Steve Sthole (ET FAQmaster) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:38:31 -0500 From: tj Subject: A new club I just found this site and don't recall it's being mentioned here before: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/kingcrimson tj, dumela at tidalwave dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:06:14 EST From: Godf852195 at aol dot com Subject: Adrian's live sampling and Robert's SS I recently read an article on Adrian's ideas about using live sampling in performance. I found this excerpt in the booklet to the 1994 Dr. Didg album "Out of the Woods": "In 1984 Graham Wiggins started using a technique known as live sampling and this has become the rhythmic foundation of much of the material on this album. Live sampling uses a digital delay to produce an endlessly repeating sample of the rhythmic phrase which you are playing. It is then possible to play something new on top of this rhythm and sample that in as well, building up layer upon layer of rhythms and musical phrases. The technique differs from normal sampling as used in pop and dance music because there is an element of performance, especially when the whole band is playing along." "But in order to capture the best energy, Graham has developed a new techinque whereby he can have 8 independent sample tracks. He can then improvise with the band in the studio, building up the rhythm loops live, but still be able to control the mix of samples." Graham Wiggins plays the Australian instrument ,the digeridoo, which sounds quite incredible when played over loops of itself and with drums and guitar. IMHO Robert Fripp's skills as a guitarist stand out best when he is cross picking those fast lines like in "Frame by Frame". It is probably just me, but I've never cared for Soundscapes very much (I own three). Sorry to say this, but SS should be used to torture death row inmates or to punish those kids who drive around blasting that bass heavey rap "music". The best use of Soundscapes I ever heard was as background material in the Robert Fripp String Quintet track "Blue". The above mentioned method of live sampling, 8 sequences plus a solo performer, would probably sound incredible with someone like Fripp or Adrian Belew manipulating the loops. Of course, I could be wrong. Awaiting KC VI, Jonathan Pearson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:01:28 -0800 From: fitness42 Subject: Posters? If anyone knows where to obtain any King Crimson posters, preferably a "Lark's Tongues in Aspic" or a "Nightwatch" poster, please let me know. Reid Black Fitness42 at mci2000 dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 01:00:18 +0100 From: "Allan Merry" Subject: Humour: Progressive Rock I have no problem with this amusing entry but as I am sure a lot of you are aware this was also sent to rec.music.progressive on 15/3/99 having initially been posted in 1995. Credit where credit is due. I have recently accessed Pete Sinfield's site on www.interx.net/~jgreen and find a lot of interesting reading re his feelings on King Crimson and source of the name and lyrics. I apologise if this has already been posted but I did read the FAQ Allan Confusion will be my epitaph ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:42:56 +0100 (BST) From: Richard Beck Subject: Toyah & NMtB Hi all, > From: Stewart Murrell > Subject: Toyah on BBC Buzzcocks? > > Are my old eyes deceiving me, or was that the lovely Toyah > on the trailer for this week's "Never Mind The Buzzcocks"? > (Hmm... wonder whether they'll have her husband on the > "Where Are They Now?" round...) I haven't seen the trailer in question, but don't forget that Toyah herself appeared in the last series of show. Her team was asked to identify the line that followed 'Nothing he's got he really needs', but failed to come up with the required answer. go well rb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:34:30 -0500 From: "Randall Hammill" Subject: Exiles Flute Hello all, >A longstanding mystery in the FAQ category is, "who's >playing the flute part on Exiles?" Last time I checked the >FAQ, the mystery had not been completely resolved. I've had >Collectors' Club # 3 for a week or so now, and since no one >has posted on the subject, I'll take a stab. In the scrapbook from The Great Deceiver on page 59 David Cross says, "At that stage I also played flute and sang - both activities I later thought better left to non-smokers. John also played violin and we used to do a jiggy duet (until one of his Family colleagues criticized him at a gig in Leicester; he never played it again)." Did anybody out there see any of the David Cross/John Wetton Violin duets? Randy Hammill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:01:32 PST From: "Spear man" Subject: Daphne and Eleanor was watching some NHK 1997 production about some elephants and caught the credits--I read "English Script Robert Fripp". Hmm. --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:49:15 +0100 (BST) From: Toby van de Peer Subject: re: Professional vs. non-professional musicians In ET 580, Nomad invited discussion on two paraphrases on musicians from Robert Fripp and Trey Gunn (not seen it? then go back and read it!) I believe that both comments are not contradictory, as they may appear to be. Robert Fripp is not dismissing out of hand anyone who is not a professional musician, using the words "on whatever level." Trey Gunn comments about Percy Howard describe someone who while unable to make a living fully from music, has still got the drive and self-determination to a) produce his music and b) present it to the people. Presenting it to the people is the key element here, which has been repeatedly stressed by Fripp. From what he says I imagine that the vast majority of unsolicited tapes are sent by people who have knocked together some stuff in their bedrooms or in a studio and then send it off to companies like DGM hoping that they will recognise the greatness of their music and thus pay for the recording of their super new album and release and promote it on discipline, and for ever after live the fine life of the respected artist. Unfortunately, DGM is not the holy grail that some would like it to be. All they do is try and distribute the already-produced records of artists. The rest is up to the artist. And the rest is a lot of stuff. If the artist is not already working at this, then why should DGM bother? Mind you, everyone who does a demo probably thinks "I am special, though, and when Robert hears the wonderful ground breaking music that I have done he will give me money and be my friend." (I know I do, so I apologise if I appear condescending). Well, think again. I feel that Fripp has enough trouble keeping KC and its incarnations above water, and he's on DGM! How can it help you? How can it do anything for you that you couldn't do yourself? Robert's argument seems to be: If your music is so wonderful and ground breaking then let the public hear about it. By this he means GET SOME GIGS! There is so much shit around that if you have something that good going, you should bite the bullet and take it anywhere. If you've got the courage to play your own, non-mainstream music to an angry pub crowd that have never heard you and are certainly not expecting you, then you can go far. The generation of interest comes from you putting it out (so to speak), and the interest is probably what most people are really looking to achieve . It's not easy, but then nothing worthwhile is. It's a bit scary doing the above, but then you have the option of just keeping it as a hobby and missing all the aggravation. If you don't want the aggravation, then why are you wasting the time of companies like DGM? After all, if no one knows who you are, whose going to buy your record? If you do an amazing show and people are stunned by it, you can always flog a few cds to people at the gig. You have to start somewhere... Percy Howard happens to have a day job. However, he can organise a gig where he gets up on stage and does an improvised set. He attracts interest by virtue of his active pursuit of his goal. At some point, though, he had a day job and no gig. He had to get up off his bum and make it happen. And that is precisely the point that I think Fripp is making. (mind you, I can tell you that the hardest place to do this in the world is the UK, but you have to try, don't you? Personally I think it would be wonderful if all those people Fripp is refering to with their (probably very nice) demo tapes actually did start dipping their toes into the world of public performance. It would probably make the scene a lot more healthy and vibrant than it currently is! I could have misinterpreted things, but this is the impression I get folks! Thanks to Nomad for bringing the subject up for discussion. Toby van de Peer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:37:09 -0500 From: Rick Tolbert Subject: LPs for trade I have the following LPs which may be of interest to fellow ET'ers, all of which are in mint or excellent condition and include both plastic dust sleeves and jacket protectors: Robert Wyatt - Nothing Can Stop Us Van der Graaf Generator - Still Life Stomu Yamashta - Go I'll swap any of these for a copy of the early/mid 80's Bill Bruford/Patrick Moraz collaboration "Music For Piano And Drums". Must be on CD and the jacket must be in excellent or mint condition. I'll also consider selling (or trading for other interesting CD titles) any of these albums that are left after the above trade transpires. Rick Tolbert Fayetteville, NC USA rick at tolbert dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:57:57 -0800 (PST) From: Percy Subject: Dream Lineup (Take Two) Robert Fripp, guitars Andy Summers, guitars Youssou N'Dour, vocals Manu Katche, drums Tony Levin, bass L. Shankar, electric violins Still trolling for info on Trey Gunn's work on the upcoming John Paul Jones solo album. Any updates or inside info would be greatly appreciated. Love, Billy Do You Yahoo!? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:40:55 -0600 (CST) From: vince Subject: Cactus encore screw-up Whoops. My review of P3 at the Cactus Cafe on Monday stated the encode was Thrak. Like the guy that said LTIA, I was incorrect. VROOOM. I have a bad brain. vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:46:04 -0500 From: "Dan B." Subject: Cross' flute In reference to the poster inquiring whether that was David Cross playing flute in the middle of the improv on CC#3, the answer is yes. Page 59 of The Great Deceiver booklet states (under Cross' own reminiscences contribution "DC & KC"), [referring to their introductory, late-'72 Euro tour]: "At that stage I also played flute and sang -- both activities I later thought better left to non-smokers." Straight from the violinist's, mellotronist's (and short-lived flutist's) mouth. -- "I don't want to spend my life explaining myself. Either you get it or you don't." -- Frank Zappa "It's time for the human race to enter the solar system." -- Dan Quayle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:36:10 -0500 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: 'Amatuer musicians' NOMAD said..... >Of >course Trey doesn't actually say what reasons musicians >mostly give for saying that the only way to be a real player >is to be a professional. This question kind of affects me fairly deeply, basically because I am NOT a musician. Why? Because I am the only one from a family of five that either IS or WAS a pro musician (my mother met my father at the Eastman school of music, and both of my brothers went to convservatory. Of the four of them, only my mother is not currently a professional musician). The basic argument i had always assumed was that a non-pro simply did not have enough time to practice (due to the full-time job), and that music that didn't require that level of deidication and chops was almost certainly bullshit. I've been rethinking this a bit, particularly in light of some of Robert's writings. Maybe "electronica" is in part a way that human society has found to express itself in light of the emerging economic constraints. Although probably few on ET cares, it may be interesting to note why I didn't decide to become a musician, despite a deep love for music and (say my family) perfect pitch (and dreaming new and interesting music on occasion). The first was just being away from family. i remember living in Chicago as a child, and dad would go on tour with various Jazz bands for months on end. I know I could not do the same thing. (On one tour, the drivier of the band bus got into a head-on collision, and my father came back home with a broken leg. But to pay the bills, he had to rejoin that tour.) The second was, basically, money. Before we moved to NYC (in 1969), and before dad started holding down jobs on Broadway, The Metropolitan opera, the American Symphony Orchestra, and St Lukes Chamber Ensemble SIMULTANEOUSLY, we were shit poor. As a kid, I didn't really notice, but it took a toll on my mother. Third, it seemed he rarely got to play what he loved the most (Jazz, and maybe some 20th century classical stuff). He hated much of the legit work (particularly the MET), and longed for the days when he played with Ellington, Pops, and others. More than that, for me rock was basically what i loved the most. But I pictured myself touring and playing tunes that maybe I loved when i wrote them, but then trying to summon up the emotion that tune respresented night after night. What was spontaneous and pure would eventually turn into acting (I guess that's why so many rock guys cross over into acting), and I'm no actor. So there you have it--combine a love of science and engineering with my 'requirements' for an enjoyable career in music....1) no touring 2) good money 3)play what i want when I want, and the choice was simple (actually, I never made a choice). It's one thing to be willing to suffer for one's art, but there are no guarantees this suffering will actually ever result in a sustainable lifestyle. Also, when one has seen and experienced this suffering basically first hand, the choices look very different. Children, for instance, were difficult for a musician in the 60s, but now would be next to impossible (I think), and I can't say how much joy my little son Maxwell has brought me. No matter how much I may love music, in retrospect the sacrifice (of music) was worth it. But now, slowly but surely, I'm thinking about taking up an instrument again. Is it too late for this 36 year old? Probably, but maybe I can good enough to play local gigs, though I doubt I'll tell anybody in my family for a while! -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:20:09 -0600 From: "Patrick Logterman" Subject: DGM France 1982 release Hello People: Like a previous poster, I am also hoping to obtain the France 1982 concert that will be released by DGM in the near future. There must be a few club members that are not interested in this CD. Of course I am willing to pay for shipping, handling, packaging, etc. Please reply via e-mail: patrickl at theonion dot com Thanks, Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:08:39 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: The "new" KC Unfortunately, it is not surprising to find a number of posts on ET complaining about the "new" KC line up. Fripp is playing with those members of the band who want to play. How can this logical approach be objectionable? Regular followers of Mr Fripp's diary know that it is not simply a matter of Bruford and Levin being unavailable for some short period of time, but that they are in fact unavailable at almost any time. For the rest of the band to attempt to accomodate their hectic schedules would turn King Crimson into a side project: clearly not the current intent of what are (for the moment) its four active members. Wish lists of "new" band members are equally useless: they tend to fall into nostalgic longing for an old version of the group or into unrealistic dreams of a "super group": both wish lists tend to be full of prog-rock gods who, great as they may well be (depending on your perspective), have little to do with the direction that the band is currently taking through its exciting projects. As Mr Fripp continuously attempts to show, every KC (since the '69 group) has been criticized at its beginning. May the new quartet have the artistic success that those critized before them had. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:08:48 -0800 (PST) From: David McMillan Subject: reaction to reaction to new line up Hey people, let's have some patience (and maybe a bit of faith) and wait for the music, so that we can form opinions based on the product and not our prejudgements of the players. I commend whoever it was that said "don't fear it, embrace it." I also feel compelled to comment on Enoboy's remarks. To just come out and say it sucks is narrow minded at best. In addition, now that Thrak has been on my CD shelf for several years now, I certainly don't view Walking on Air as wimpy. Far from it, I think it is a beautifully intricate and interwoven tune that comes close (I repeat: close) to the level of The Sheltering Sky. Granted, it took me a long while to find the beauty in a lot of Thrak. Of course, the in-your-face heavy stuff was an immediate hit. What I look forward to with a new KC is something new and different. With a shuffled line up, it's bound to be just that. Whether or not Trey is a Fripp clone or lacks substance, I've heard what he can do in many settings and for the most part, I like it. I think it's more likely that the sense of similarity between Trey and Robert is due to the sharing of a common language - something that has been discussed on ET before. I don't know much about Pat, but I know that the others are able to recognize talent and potential and am sure their choice is solid. Finally, speaking of Pat... he was mentioned briefly on the VH1 show Where Are They Now? The show had a segment on Mr. Mister which focussed on one of the other members. Then, the narrator said something like, "what about drummer Pat Mastellino [mispronounced], he's realized a long time dream and now plays in his favourite group King Crimson." During this brief statement, they showed about TWO seconds of the Heartbeat video. This is not meant to be informational, merely amusing. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:48:48 -0600 From: "Rob Murphree" Subject: Adrian on NPR's "Anthem" Hi All, Real quick before it's too late: NPR is now playing the Belew "Anthem" interview online. If you have RealAudio installed on your computer system, you can listen to the 3 part interview now. Simply point your browsers to: http://www.npr.org/programs/anthem/thisweek/1999/ and enjoy the show! It's a very nice interview complete with a tutorial on how to make your own songs as a one-man band. Also mentioned: Nine Inch Nails, King Crimson, and a brief description of what to expect from his forthcoming new electric solo record. -Rob The Official Adrian Belew WWW Site www.murple.com/adrianbelew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:39:36 EST From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Jamie Muir/Derek Bailey & the Music Improvisation Company Scott Steele wrote: >I remember the LP was on the ECM label. I also would like >to obtain this if it exists on CD - does anyone know where >it is available? I believe it was called "The Music >Improvisation Company" if memory serves. The Music Improvisation Company did indeed feature both Jamie Muir and Derek Bailey (alongside Evan Parker and Hugh Davies, plus Christine Jeffrey on the first LP). Their first, self-titled LP was recorded in 1970 but not issued until 1974, as one of the earliest ECM releases (ECM 1005). The only other LP, _1968-1971_, came out on Bailey's Incus label in the early '80s (Incus 17), and even features a cover painting by Muir. This album has been issued on CD; the first has not. Get on down, Biffy the Elephant Shrew http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 23:47:49 PST From: "Spear man" Subject: RE: where to get...Jamie Muir and Derek Bailey try www.forcedexposure.com they have a listing for it. --spearman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:02:17 PST From: "Rich Malitz" Subject: PROJEkCT TWO - Live Groove Review Two weeks ago I ordered Live Groove as an import from CDNow. I didn't know if it would backlogged until June or if I would even get it. Today, it was waiting in my mailbox for me! The cover is the same as the one shown in the DGM Sampler. On the back is a black and white picture of the band on stage. The booklet inside is almost completely Trey's diary from his website of the whole P2 tour and recording sessions. There wasn't any further info I hadn't seen before. The tracklist is: 1. Sus-tayn-Z 2. Heavy ConstruKction 3. The Deception of the Thrush 4. X-chayn-jiZ 5. Light ConstruKction 6. Vector Shift To Planet Detroit 7. Contrary ConstruKction 8. Live Groove 9. Vector Shift To Planet Belewbeloid 10. 21st Century Schizoid Man The disc runs around 65 minutes. I have listened to it once already, so I'll give a quick review. This disc was listened to in total darkness with headphones with no interruptions. I believe that to be a good way to get into a new album. Trey is on the left, Robert on the right, and Adrian in the middle. The first track starts with Robert and Trey, well, sustaining note after note (slowly) until Adrian comes crashing in a few minutes later and changes the mood. (This is not the same as the sustained harmony walk up Trey and Robert do. That is on Contrary ConstruKction.) I guess my explaination must be pretty crazy right now! How do you explain instrumentals?! Heavy ConstruKction is over 5 minutes long on here, the DGM sampler version should be called Heavy Edit ConstruKction. Much more enjoyable in a full length. The next track will always stand out in my memories from the Cannery in Nashville. This was the track that Robert felt was King Crimson, or something like that. It has so much power, an aura to it, I love it. I only wish it was longer! It is 7:30 long by the way. I remember that part of the next song X-chayn-jiZ was done inside Thrush at Nashville, with Robert using the vibraphone sound. As the tour continued, X-chayn-jiZ became the song with Robert and Trey hitting aggresive piano sounding counter-rhythms. Light ConstruKction is mellower, using bell patches on the guitars. Vector Shift To Planet Detroit is an intro track to Contrary ConstuKction. The former has a spacey feel to it, the latter has the sustained harmony walk up between Trey and Robert over and over, each time they hold the last note and then abruptly slide off their necks. Live Groove the song is the longest piece on the album and gives the guys room to solo and strech out. It features the Space Groove drum/bass sample from the Space Groove disc. The "show" seems to end here, and the crowd wants their encore. Belewbeloid is little encore featuring Adrian doing a little percussion solo. (I was hoping this would make it!) Schizoid Man is longer on here than the sampler, but they do not do the main riff. With that the disc ends, or does it??? It was a peaceful Ohio evening until...... :) First my complaints. I wanted to have the version of Vrooom on here. This disc should be a 2CD set. No more complaints. This CD is as good if not better than I could have imagined. I saw P2 3 times and this is a perfect document of the tour. The playing on here is flawless, these sound like definitive versions. I heard a tape of one of the P2 shows in Japan in April and those versions sound primitive by comparison. I actually didn't really enjoy that tape. By the time June and July rolled around, these songs took shape and became what they are on this CD. I saw the two shows here at the Park West and they were great. I met Trey after the first PW show and he asked me if I noticed a difference between the Nashville show and the one I just saw. Yes Trey, I sure did. BIG difference. Well, that's my little review for you. You can get this CD from CDNow or if you look around for a place that carries imports. I am going to wait for P1 when the box set comes out. To Robert, David, Chris, Ken, and DGM, absolutely incredible. Thanks R,T, & A for the music. Robert, I still wouldn't mind a club release of P2 at the Park West! Rich Malitz Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:56:36 +0100 From: "Ashley" Subject: Reaction to reaction to new line up G'day all, hmm...my tongue is hurting so i'll stop biting it. Enoboy offered: >I have been reading all the postings concerning the new line >up and have tried to sort out my own feelings on the issue. >Now, enough time has passed for me to be sure how I feel. You're sure about that, then... He continues : >It sucks!!! Of all the possible combinations one could have >gotten out of the Double Trio, this is about the weakest. Does it? excuse me if i don't take your word for it... The combination of Amy and Mr Fripp's guitar techie would be pretty bland... >This is not to disparage the technical abilities of PM and >TG; it is that TL and BB are both compositionally far ahead >of that pair and nearly anyone else in the business. I'm sure PM and TG will be relieved that you approve of their technical abilities. I only wish I had your knowledge of the music business so i too could make an informed comparison like yours. >If we look back at the various incarnations of KC, the >strongest three (IMHO) were those where the band was on a >par with Fripp in most respects. (1969, 1972, 1981). (finally an IMHO!) - whether or not they were the strongest doesn't detract from the fact that they exist in the past, which is not a place where KC is heading (thankfully!). > The other versions, including the Double Trio, had players that >were not of his abilities and the music suffered. Imagine, if you will, that all members of all ensembles were of the same ability - it would be a world of boyzymes and spice girls(sic) As for the music suffering; was it the music of KC or YOUR perception of what the music is/is not? >AB is a good musician but his songwriting is OK at best. You'd know all about good songwriting i guess, as you know of everyone in the business. >Now, his role will be even stronger in the band and that >means more weak songs. I'm hard pressed to think of a "weak" AB song, but of course I'm not as supernaturally perceptive as you... >What would most of us rather listen to? I can only speak for myself as I'm not the "People's Poet" or anything (RIGHT KIDS?), but I'll listen to what I'm presented with, with an open mind, an open heart and without being obtrude (two words before OBTUSE in the Oxford paperback dictionary - look them BOTH up). - my apologies if you were simply referring to RF's angular playing. >The classic muscular Vroom or the wimpy Walking on Air? That simple statement says it all, really... >The KC that we go to see, that >we enjoy the most, that gives up the most satisfaction is >the band that specializes in amazing instrumentals, not in >pop songwriting. Thank you so much for enlightening me as to what a "pop song" is...I've been wondering why the soulessly, unfunky "people" has been played cyclicly every ten minutes on the radio...as for that bland, over-processed, teen anthem "Matte Kudasai" - i wish they'd give it a rest! >To whine about no one wanting to write songs or organize the >band is BS; it is his f-ing job!!! I'm sure RF will be delighted to finally have his job description so eloquently put to him, er sorry US...maybe you should let him know. >Same with Bruford and Earthworks. They are a >great band, but they ain't raking in the dough I don't know for sure, but i suspect BB doesn't NEED the "dough", he may be happy playing the music he really loves without any monetary motives being involved - something i suspect you cannot understand. >But RF is so idiosyncratic and obtuse and that is >that. once again, that was the OXFORD PAPERBACK DICTIONARY... >So, now we have a band of decent technical ability but not >much excitement. Which gig is it that you saw again? - i'm thankful i saved my money and didn't attend... >I will go see them and buy whatever comes out, so you ARE a masochist - that explains your post! > but I am >saddened by the loss of the nuclear core of that amazing >rhythm section and the potential that we'll never see or >hear. You're obviously privvy to inside knowledge that the rest of us are unaware of - PLEASE post more of these tantalising secrets, I'm sure i CAN speak for all of us when i say that we can't wait to find out what KC will be up to in 2010 - could you let us know by ET#582? thanks. Obstinately, ashley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:09:35 +0200 From: "t. thencilentelias" Subject: re: pro vs. non-pro > Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:13:13 PST > From: "Nomad Stem" > Subject: Professional vs. non-professional musicians > > ET regulars are familiar with Fripp's diary writings about > unsolicited tapes and CDs and such. For example (there are > many), in a September entry he wrote: > > "Please, unless you are a recognised professional > (...) > > Contrast this with a statement Trey Gunn makes in his Road > Diary from February in which he talks about Percy Howard: > > "Most of the reasons musicians give, when saying that the > only way to be a real player is to be a professional > (...) > Comments? hi nomad, elephantalkers, i don't know that these statements actually do contrast each other. fripp is on record (if you really want, i'll dig it up) as saying, and i'm paraphrasing here, that "the work of a musician is music and the work of a professional musician is business (and music)," and also something like "being a professional musician imposes more constraint on the music than being a non-professional." it seems to me that the fripp quote you submitted details the difficulties of being a professional musician because he is talking to people who aspire to be professional, and not because he thinks pros have some extra musical validity over amateurs (the word really doesn't have a nice connotation, does it?). fripp is less than enthusiastic about the rigours of the professional arena, and i think he wants people to realize that just because music is a wonderful thing doesn't mean that professional musicianship is also a wonderful thing. that's my take on it. cheers, robert ps. i agree, macon: we are very lucky. pax vobiscum. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:09:52 EST From: Vicsevin at aol dot com Subject: Yes Virginia, Dean Martin once sang "In the Court of the Crimson King" Hello All, In response to a post about the Mike Quatro album "Paintings", I felt the need to add a few coments. "In the Court of the Crimson King" finished out side 2 of the LP and was done quite well. Nice use of mellotron and other keyboards, if memory serves correctly, I think that Ted Nugent did add some guitar sounds the very beginning of the song, although I may be a little fuzzy on that. The part of my memory that I will never forget is that the vocal on ITCOTCK sounded strangely like 'gasp", Dean Martin. Of course it wasn't, I think Quatro sang, but a lot of my friends and budding Crimson fans all thought that the rusted chains of prison moons sounded a little tipsy. Very strange vocal, quite good music. Everyone's a critic so I do have to add that I don't think it sounded like Dave Lawson of Greenslade, he doesn't sound flat, he sounds like one of the most sarcastic voices in all of 'rock' music, next to maybe Donald Fagen. All in all, I wish this old LP would be released on CD, it did have some very interesting music on it. To interest of Crimson fans, besides probably the first cover version of a King Crimson ever, was the liberal use of mellotron throughout the album. In particular, a song called "Rackmoninoffs Prelude", which cooked. It was sort of very ELPish but in a class all its own. And for all the years I have listened to and be dazzled by mellotron playing and mellotron sounds, this is maybe the fastest I have ever heard anyone play that instrument, very interesting sounding. Oh well, this is my first post to ET, enjoy reading all the comments and info, keep up the good work. I have just one last comment, King Crimson 1999, electronic drums, or acoustic drums, 4 or six players, old or new {{{although I would love to see MIke Giles back}}}, Fripp sitting on a stool or Fripp standing on a stool, who cares, just get it going, can't wait for new music. Thanks, Vikk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:18:48 EST From: JRindfrey at aol dot com Subject: "I talk to the wind" with female singer >Many years ago (25?) I heard in the radio the song "I talk >to the wind" while the singer was a female. (...) >Any idea where can I find this record? Any information about >it? I don't know if this recording is still available, but the female singer probably is Judy Dyble, formerly of Fairport Convention. She was a member of King Crimson for a few weeks. Jochen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:37:43 +1000 From: "Mark Jordan" Subject: KC live in 82 too Will Etkin wrote >I am looking for someone who is a member of the Discipline >CD club that does not want the upcoming live in France 1982 Me too. I've got enough of the other but never enough of the 80's. Please a collectors club member that doesn't like the 80's get this CD and I'll buy this from you. Regards to all Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:55:19 -0800 From: Sean Malone Subject: Sean Malone Clinic in Eugene, Oregon To anyone who might be interested, and living in the Oregon / Washington area, I'll be giving a clinic and masterclass on bass and Stick at Light's Music in Eugene Oregon, April 9th and 10th. The clinic will consist of tunes from Gordian Knot, (featuring Trey Gunn, Sean Reinert, Ron Jarzombek, John Myung) my first CD Cortlandt (featuring Trey Gunn and Reeves Gabrels), and Focus from Cynic. I'll probably to some solo Stick music as well. The masterclass is the following day where we'll work on specific concepts such as technique, improvisation, and styles. I'll be working out of my new book published by Hal Leonard Corporation called "Dictionary of Bass Grooves." The clinic is 7 PM at Lights Music, Eugene - 142 W. 8th Ave, and the fee is $5. The masterclass is at the same location at noon on April 10th, the fee is $20, and bring your instrument. hope to see you there, Sean Malone Light's music: www.lightsmusic.com -- ----------------------- Sean Malone Gordian Knot http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~spm29386 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:15:24 +1200 From: David MacLennan Subject: Gitbox In reply to whoever was asking about Gitbox recently: There is one earlier disc, from '92, called Pesky Digits. It's really good too, but is more Crafty-oriented that Touch Wood (which I think is the better of the two). It features a larger lineup -- they were then called Gitbox Rebellion. It came out on the Rattle label here, as did Touch Wood (Rattle is/was a fine wee label actually, but I haven't seen much from it lately). As far as I can recall, they were formed by Nigel Gavin, in particular, following a Guitar Craft course that Fripp ran here in about 1990-91 -- which I didn't even know about until after it was over (sigh....) For a while another Gitboxer, Kim Halliday, was distributing the DGM catalogue here in NZ, but as it was a one-person operation it was a bit hit or miss as to which ones got released here, and they were next-to-impossible to find anywhere. And before I go, one further comment on the Collectors Club release of KC at the Marquee -- there's a rare photo in there, the first one I think I've ever seen, of Fripp playing guitar WHILE STANDING UP!! TTFN, David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:30:27 -0700 From: "Furman, Leo" Subject: Brief Quote/Update from Fripp Hello, Elephant Talk and All Crimson Fans, On the "Entertainment News" section of the Total E website (www.totale.com), I noticed this tidbit today: KING CRIMSON UPDATE: So what's King Crimson up to these days? The six musicians continue to work in their assorted Projekt off-shoots, and drummer Bill Bruford recently released a new album with his jazz band, Earthworks. But we caught up with tight-lipped Crimson leader Robert Fripp in Austin, Texas, and he took a rare moment to shed some light on the group's future: "King Crimson is preparing for a new studio album and recording to follow. We have a working beginning date of August the first." Most of this, of course, is not news to Crim fans, but the August 1 start date for the new album is news to me. Also, thank you Robert, Pat, Trey, Cactus Cafe and Austin, TX for a wonderful evening of ProjeKct Three music on March 22. I drove in from Houston to see it, and it was worth the time/money/hassle, etc. The Crimson future looks bright indeed! Thanks for the forum, ET. Leo Furman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:21:02 -0500 From: "RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR." Subject: Is copying USA LP and gifting it bootlegging, pirating, or simple human kindness? I recently received a sincere inquiry from an ET'r whom felt remorse for wanting to hear the USA LP and torn because of their loyalty to Fripp and his opinion on bootlegging. I have never experienced a more sincere representation of enduring customer loyalty. My response is as follows and set the issue before ET. A simple request from Fripp to cease would be granted. The request being an exposure of ill character and a high price indeed. Bootlegging involves concealing audio equipment at a live concert, using that equipment to record the show, then distributing copies of that recording for monetary gain. Pirating involves copying of a legitimately released and commercially available recording and then distributing those copies for monetary gain. USA is out of print and commercially unavailable in any form. Any copying of the vinyl LP and sharing of that utility has no effect of pirating because it results in no loss of revenue to any artist or record company because they have chosen not to market it. It is not pirating. Any opposition of Robert Fripp to you receiving a copy of a vinyl LP to enjoy would be plain and simple selfish greed. Bootlegging which is an even more of a marshmallow argument is only arguable when a monetary gain is pursued. The digital audio disc cost me $3.18 a padded envelope cost me 0.85 and shipment anywhere within the United States cost me $1.43, this totaled out at $5.46. I have refused any offer to receive compensation for my time and refuse any monetary gain. This is not bootlegging or pirating. Robert Fripp has made a concious decision to make USA unavailable and therefore failed to serve the customers needs. Your receipt of a copy of the vinyl LP doesn't come anywhere close to addressing your needs as a customer to have a digitally mastered 1 or 2 CD set of USA, complete with artwork, enhanced computer graphics or DVD format compatibility, if released by Fripp. Don't let people like Fripp label you as an audient instead of a customer and then tell you what to think. There is nothing more important than a customer, nothing acts more responsibly than a customer and nothing uses scarce resources more efficiently than a customer. USA was recorded 1975 almost 25 years ago. And Fripp needs to be protected from you receiving a copy of the vinyl LP? That would be simple selfish greed and arrogance, which sums up Fripp and all artist's opposition against bootlegging. If any of this commentary arises a gut feeling within you perhaps you owe it to yourself to question Fripp's so called authority. Sometimes fans have a tendency to forget that their artists work for them the customer. Everything else is bull. And Fripp's opposition to bootlegging is really just fog as the recent DGM club establishment confirms. Fripp and other artists receive free marketing research by simply observing the bootleg activity and then serving the customers needs by providing the products identified by successful bootleg sales. If it weren't for the bootlegs the customer's interests would never have been identified by DGM or other record companies because they operate in a collusive non-competitive price fixed industry under the now scrutinous eye of the US Justice Department. In the words of Bob Dylan: "You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows". ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #581 ********************************