Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #575 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 575 Sunday, 28 February 1999 Today's Topics: Silly post and ProjeKcts What is King Crimson? The Peter Gabriel III - Discipline Connection Re: Adrian's promo trip Rembrandt vs Crook Aint no mello-trone!! Concert acoustics Fripp Live: Meditation; Vs. The Club more P3 dates Flashes KC Desktop Theme RE: ABWH 10th Ann. DEJA VROOOM and Sticks Cover confusion DVD vs CD What are words worth? Allusion or plagiarism? GIG REVIEW: Belew at Bibelot's in Baltimore 2/24/99 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:57:27 +0800 From: Brady Drum Company / Chris Brady & Craftsmen Subject: Silly post and ProjeKcts apologies for my "New material/archival" post in #573. Seems I was the victim of misinformation. I had an interview with BB from a Dutch (or is it German) mag called 'Sticks' translated by a German/Dutch speaking friend of mine, he mentioned one part as "we've been working on the new record since last year......it is 95% finished'.One would assume this meant recorded. Oh well, it was a nice thought anyway......... Could some of the folks catching the upcoming P3 show(s) post in a gig review? Judging from old tour diaries and the DGM sampler, there are progressively more written 'sketches' in the ProjeKct music as it develops. For anyone who's seen more than one ProjeKct, is this discernable from an audient's point of view? In what ways is P3 similar/different? I'd love to see the show and find out for myself, but I don't think I can get a train to Austin from here (Australia) Shane Brady P.S. someone was looking for KC alumni in Pink Floyd? Check the T. Lev interviews here at E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:32:52 -0500 From: "RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR." Subject: What is King Crimson? Hello ET. Personally don't need gig reviews, Fripp adulation or archive rehash. Need something interactive and progressive, not something that happened yesterday (even though I'm 40). Would like to offer my last 9 minutes thoughts. Could ETr's submit some lyrics to KC for consideration? The following concepts are submitted under complete discretionary censorship by ET moderation:( I am not a vulnerable soul) 1) Youth slips to apathy. 2) Enemies vote themselves in; oppression undenied. 3) He that has the gold makes the rules. 4) Liberalism sucks, when in doubt check your 1040. 5) Cynycism displaces emotion. 6) KC needs lyric emphasis. 7) Yawning is exercise. 8) Cultivating creativity in an environment of corporate conformity. 9) The wall on which the Rhino wrote has cracked; shelter is behind the scenes. 10) Self Discipline is admirable, anything else is self limiting. Quote: Live music is better, bumper stickers should be issued. From: Neil young, Hawks and Doves album, Union Man song. Entire album currently unavailable in any legal consumer medium... cassette, cd or otherwise. (Politically incorrect?) Give the customer what they need and end the posturing, Don't call me audient, call me customer and bring me product, price, place and promotion: Raymond J. Raupers Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:18:02 +0700 From: "Dave Lumenta" Subject: The Peter Gabriel III - Discipline Connection 1. Fripp 2. Levin 3. Hi-hats censored Wanna know how Phil Collins would sound if he ever opted joining KC instead of 'Face Value' ? PG3: Intruder, No Self Control, And Through The Wire... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:04:06 -0500 From: Rhea Frankel Subject: Re: Adrian's promo trip "Rhino" wrote: > >Here is a list of this week's Adrian Belew / Salad Days promotions. Tune >in if you can and for live appearances, drop by and lend your support. >Sorry for such a short notice . I'm not sure if there's going to be more >in the near future but if there is, I'll let you all know. > >-Rob > > >THURS., FEB 25th > >1:30pm WORLD CAFE w/David Dye: WXPN Univ of Penn > Rob, Thanks for the news! I found out about this through your website too. I worked at WXPN a few years back, and with your notice, I managed to call in some favors at the station, take a *long* lunch from my current job, and see the interview and performance! :) Adrian played three songs - Young Lions, Dinosaur, and Three of a Perfect Pair, all performed acoustically. This should air on the World Cafe on the first week of April. Adrian spoke about upcoming solo plans - working on an electric album with guitar, bass, and drums (with Adrian playing all the instruments) and a set of rarities albums called "Dust". There's also going to be a new Bears album. I used to work for the children's show on XPN, called Kid's Corner. It combines weekly guests, trivia contests, and music. One of the songs that got a lot of airplay was Oh Daddy, which even made the top 50 Kid's Corner songs of all time, which was compiled a few years ago. I got to tell this to Adrian and his wife, to let them know we were introducing his music to multiple generations. :) Rhea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:51:22 -0500 (EST) From: david vella Subject: Rembrandt vs Crook Greetings, ETalkers In the last newsletter, William Krueger wrote: "have any of KC's alumni ever recorded or performed with Pink Floyd or Manfred Mann's Earth Band?" While I don't know for sure, I think not. However, readers of this newsletter might like to know about the "King Crimson Alumni Discography Project", which is located at the url: http://www.concentric.net/~Handrews/music/crimsolo/ This is a useful idea, but the website is woefully incomplete at this time. Knowledgeable readers might want to contribute to this website with new entries and/or reviews... Mr. Krueger also wrote: "Sorry, I have a million questions that I should just forget about for instance why Rembrandt's "The Night Watch" wasn't used for the recent King Crimson cd's album art? Ever since I first heard the song as a teenager I've always aesthetically associated that painting with the music and thought how mystical it was that this group took their inspiration from such a profoundly deep obscure reference. Not that there's anything wrong with the new artwork (in fact it's quite excellent), however, it doesn't seem to suit the song as richly and I felt somehow schwearted. Is there anyone else out there that shares in this sentiment?" In a word, Yes! I was/am/will always be moved by the transcendant beauty of that song, and as I wrote in my own King Crimson discography page (at http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/kcdisco.htm), that song did more to make me appreciate the painting than the painting itself ever did. In fact, late one night about 17 years ago while I was up to the wee hours (see the recent DGM guestbook post by the psycheflapper for the reference to the "CIA" - Chronic Insomniacs Association) trying to write my graduate dissertation, in a search for some spiritual support and some relief for my tired brain, I called in a request for that song at my local radio station. In all my long years of listening to music, it is the ONLY time I ever phoned in a request to a radio station. [PS While the outcome of the story is not really relevant to my original point, readers may like to know what became of my request. Well - - hours later, the DJ finally played "In the Court of the Crimson King" instead. It was the only KC the DJ could find at the radio station (& I suspect the only KC he had ever heard). While I was delighted to hear SOME KC, it was not what I had in mind! Fortunately, my dissertation was in Mathematics - I hestitate to speculate on the effects of such a substitution had I been writing a dissertation in say, History, Psychology or Politics...] In any case, I anticipated a Rembrandt cover to "The Night Watch" as soon as I heard about its impending release. I was very disappointed when I saw the actual cover art. I wish I could be as generous as Mr. Krueger, but frankly, 'no matter how I study it, no matter how I break it down, it remains inconsistent. I don't like it!' (to paraphrase something I heard once...) This is not to be taken as a criticism of P.J.Crooks' work in general - I quite like the "other worldliness" of the cover artwork for "Epitaph". Last thought - I wonder whether there are copyright issues involved in using a Rembrandt image on a commerical product. If so, who would own the copyright? The descendants of Rembrandt? The museum (collector) which (who) owns the original painting? Before I return to lurking, I was wondering if anyone has heard anything about whether CC#3 is on schedule, or close to it, and also whether any one knows anything about the release date for USAII? Back to the shadows, David Vella ==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==*==* David C. Vella Office: Harder Hall 219 Associate Professor of Mathematics 518-580-5291 Skidmore College dvella at skidmore dot edu Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Home: 518-587-5363 web-page: http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/dcvbio1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:10:54 EST From: Goodcraker at aol dot com Subject: Aint no mello-trone!! Well now that the mellotron sample/Bungalow Bill argument is settled, let's throw one more iron into the fire!! If you give a very close listen to the Louis Prima/Freedy Smith rendition of "Old Black Magic", from "Live at San Quentin" I think you will hear a familiar sound midway through during a break in the vocals (Just after Prima is rumored to say "Paul is dead" but actually has admitted to saying "Raspberry Claws"). It is very similar to the opening mellotron riff in the first few seconds of "The Devils Triange" or "Mars" or whatever we are calling it. Well it aint a mellotron, it was a drunken Freedy Smith stumbling into a holding cell and screaming at their orchestra conducter/prison trustee. I am hoping this will put to rest the rumors that there was a Louis Prima/Robert Fripp connection. Back into the weeds.... T Murphy/Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:59:56 -0500 From: "Louis Courteau" Subject: Concert acoustics With all due respect, I somewhat disagree on the point of concert acoustics submitted by Robert MacCoun et al. (ET573ff.). I have seen Strawbs in 73 in a hockey arena with a horrendous sound (actually, the only good part was when the PA went down and we were graced with a solo piano improv). Fripp & Co got on the same stage with the same PA half an hour later and had this VERY LOUD but VERY CLEAN sound which contrasted a lot with the mess heard in Part I. KC sound was already remarkably clean in 71 at Pavillon Pollack (one could particularly enjoy Mel Collin's tone and presence). At the Montreal Forum in 74, KC had a cleaner sound than anything else I ever heard there. The only annoying sound there was those inarticulate screams from a mescalin-induced portion of the crowd whenever the music was soft enough for them to be heard. I guess they just mooed all through the show. Again in Palais Montcalm in 1981, the sound definition was something unheard before. One could even hear Bob call numbers (6..., 10) enthusiastically while playing Discipline. I'm telling you, it was as clear as a night with Shakti. The Sheltering Sky theme line drew crowd applause every time it was played. There was some sort of a magic shrill in it that just made tilt somewhere in everyone's brain. Now you need a good sound engineer to get that. Maybe Quebec and Montreal have some of the Best in the West, who could tell? As a contrast, I must admit that the sound of the sextet in Le Grand Theatre de Quebec (which is no hockey arena for sure) took about an hour to get used to. As far as I'm concerned, it was rather an exception than the rule. louis courteau loco at caractera dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:46:18 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Fripp Live: Meditation; Vs. The Club I. In the past year or so I have seen Robert Fripp play four times; each time I was in the first or second row. While I cannot say for certain that he was meditating, his level of concentration, especially in the Soundscape shows, was extreme, and included the deep-breathing-closed-eyes approach of meditation. As I have said here before, I don't care whether or not photography is allowed at rock shows, but Soundscapes aren't rock. II. To the question, "Would you prefer more club releases or live shows?", my answer is "It depends." If the live show is Fripp or a Project in a nice club, I'll take the concert. If it's the double trio playing a mostly predictable set in a big ugly hall (with Fripp hiding in the shadows), I will take a new club release, please, although preferably something more adventurous than what we've seen so far. (I love the club releases, but I'm looking forward to a more eclectic blend in the future. This, of course, will take some time.) The last time KC played at "a big hall" near me I didn't attend, and I've never regretted that decision. Concerts of this type are celebrations of celebrity that have more to do with spectacle than with music/art. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:00:47 -0600 From: James Hines Subject: more P3 dates PrjeKct 3 have (for now) 2 more performances in Austin... March 22 and March 23 at the Cactus Cafe in Austin. Both shows start @ 8pm. The Cactus is where the CGT and Tony Geballe played when they came through last month (in addition to Borders). Usually the Cactus features folk/acoustic music so the noise that P3 make should make for an interesting evening. Let's hope there's more to come! getting ancy for SXSW, James Hines (no crafty affiliation) cheevy-james at mail dot utexas dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:54:41 -0600 From: "Grant Colburn" Subject: Flashes Although something tells me this may be on its way to being a dead thread, I thought I'd throw in the provervial 2 cents before its too late. From what I've read about Fripp its not the flash itself that is the greatest distraction. I think it has more to do with the "capturing" of the moment rather than the living of it. The same is probably true regarding bootlegging, even if one doesn't do it for profit and trade. The photographer's and and recorder's attention are on the future (having the photo/recording for "later") rather than the present. Now this may all seem semi-mystic occult mumbo jumbo to some, but obviously Fripp is at the stage in his life where what he believes and what he wants concern him more than total understanding of his motives by his audience. The phrase that always comes to my mind when thinking of this situation is from the lyrics of Peter Gabriel's Security album: "Smash the camera, you cannot steal away the spirit." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:56:13 -0500 From: "Robert C. Parducci" Subject: KC Desktop Theme There is a great Schizoid Man Desktop Theme, and more, at http://www.winfiles.com The site is pretty easy to navigate. Start from Windows Shareware -> Desktop Themes -> Music. The ZIP file is about 2M. I downloaded it about a year ago. Enjoy! Robert C. Parducci ICQ# 11375362 LEGEND: In Our Own Time http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rcp/ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 99 11:00:28 EST From: James Dusewicz Subject: RE: ABWH 10th Ann. 1999 is the tenth anniversary of the release of the much underrated Anderson/Bruford/Wakeman/Howe album. Also, for those of you into Bruford/Wetton. Has anyone mentioned the abslute brilliance of the the first UK album? It is a wonderful combination of Yes/Crimson/Roxy Music/Zappa influences. jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:24:58 -0600 From: "Chris Berg" Subject: DEJA VROOOM and Sticks Hey Folks, I just wanted to drop in my two cents about DEJA VROOOM. It was tough to find. I never did find it on the shelves at any store around here. I had to go to Amazon.com for it, but it was worth the search. The extras like Tony's road movies and the song remix are very cool (well, the remix feature is more "gee whiz" than anything else), but the music, sound quality, and performances are top notch. I really like the angle changing feature on the few songs it's implimented on. The whole concept behind this DVD is really an advancement. I don't see how anyone who has any respect for their own music would be able to put out a vhs tape anymore. I know that marketing will probably dictate this, but a CD quality sound track and razor sharp image are unbeatable. Mix in the feature flexibility and I don't see much of a choice from a creative stand point. I only see two minor negatives with this DVD: 1) the mix has almost NO audience, so the performances have a bit of a creepy, sterile feel to them. You can only hear very faint cheers between songs. 2) The menu interface isn't very intuitive. At first I thought it didn't work until I combed the manual and found out that it worked exactly like I wouldn't have assumed it would have :) It doesn't work like every other DVD I own... Anyway, all in all I give it two thumbs up. It's a must for DVD player owning Crimson fans! On another topic, does anyone know where I can see, feel, touch, play test, possibly buy a Chapman Stick near Chicago? Im out northwest of the city and I haven't a clue who might have one on their shelves... thrak, chris "I went to tell everybody, But I could not get across..." -Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:18:39 -0800 From: "Talia A. Valles" Subject: Cover confusion Dear fellow Crimheads: Yesterday I was taking a stroll through Georgetown in Washington, D.C, when we came upon a record store. Naturally, I went to the King Crimson section, and I browsed through the titles, and I was quite surprised to see that they had Lizard. However, on closer inspection, I found out that it really was In the Court of the Crimson King with the Lizard cover. There were several such CD's. Does anybody know what the hell is going on? I was about to buy it, yet I already have ITCOTKC. It's a good thing I was careful. Victor Herrera audient and enthusiast reply to: vm_herrera at acad dot fandm dot edu Franklin and Marshall College Lancaster, PA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:04:57 EST From: Roozeboom at aol dot com Subject: DVD vs CD "Is there any part of the audio track on the Crimso DVD that is playable on a normal CD player?>>" "This is like asking if any part of a VHS cassette is playable on an audio cassette deck." No, it's not. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:12:32 EST From: Roozeboom at aol dot com Subject: What are words worth? "applies to videos as well. As you know there has been a bit of a clammer for 1969-1974 videos of the group, and if good copies exist out there in Cyberland (or elsewhere), then " Sorry - "clammer"? ... Perhaps the use of "emoticons" should be encouraged so as to cue the reader to either laugh or cry? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:28:03 EST From: Roozeboom at aol dot com Subject: Allusion or plagiarism? "Anyone else spot the chord progression from the intro to that song deep within THRaKaTTaK? (I believe it's track 5, but don't have the CD here with me). Given Fripp's beliefs regarding copyright ethic, how would he justify its inclusion?" If we cannot tell the difference between citation, humurous allusion, homage on one hand and plagiaristic inclusion and subversive copycatting for personal gain on the other, we are all in deep trouble. Quiz: Which of the below are objectionable actions of plagiarism: - People exclaiming theatrically: "I have a dream" - People earning Grammys for recycling Sting songs - People surrendering to admiration and awe by letting acknowledged influences permeate their work By the way, apologies for the violation of copyright ethic in the above first paragraph. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:33:38 -0500 From: Mark Chapman Subject: GIG REVIEW: Belew at Bibelot's in Baltimore 2/24/99 I apologize for the tardiness of this message, and I also apologize for any inaccuracies communicated in it. So I had to ask myself would it be worth it to leave my job early in McLean, Virginia (just on the south edge of Washington, DC) and drive 115 miles (round-trip) in Washington/Baltimore rush-hour traffic to try to catch Adrian Belew at a bookstore appearance when I had actually no idea what might take place or for how long? Well, yes, it was most worth it. I have one friend to thank for letting me know about this event, which was apparently not arranged nor publicized very far in advance. My friend heard about it on a local radio station only a half-day in advance, and the Bibelot events manager confirmed that it had been scheduled "at the last minute." Adrian and his lady were in the store quite a bit early but sneaked into the cafe/restaurant inside the store, and as I only noticed them just as they were being greeted by the hostess, I decided not to approach them. But I did take a flash photo. (haha, just kidding) The seating area for Adrian's 'performance' was quite cozy and a bit removed from much of the store, and offerred quite a number of chairs. I would say that close to 75 people (a rough guess) showed up to see/hear him. Of course it was a bit strange as Adrian approached and had to walk through the group. People said 'hi' and he was quite open and friendly, but only one person applauded. A. began talking immediately and said that he had been with two radio stations all day, being interviewed, and recording some music on National Public Radio, which would presumably be played back at a future date. He did not know when. He felt a bit drained by all the day's schedule, and really didn't have specific plans (his or someone else's) for this evening's event. He said he would be happy to sit and chat for a while and then play a few songs. So it turned into a very nice hour of question-and-answer (it seemed like significantly longer at the time), interspersed with wonderful renditions (only he and his acoustic guitar) of 'Young Lions,' 'Dinosaur,' and 'Three of a Perfect Pair.' Many questions were asked by the audients and here's some of what Adrian had to say (I apologize in advance if any of this is old stuff to you or repetitive in any form): He's only recently installed an in-home studio and his productivity has shot through the roof. He has 9 or 10 new songs recorded with The Bears, with the hopes of getting out a new Bears album. He's been working on a variety of solo projects and hopes to continue putting out such recordings. He has a bunch of archival, previously unreleased material that he said is equal to five "volumes" worth, and this may be released sometime. He admitted that he was not certain about what format Crimson will follow in the near future, but he has plans to sit back down with Robert around June to work on new stuff. He has found working with Zappa, Laurie Anderson, Eno, and Bowie very fulfilling. He likened Zappa to a college professor, whose nearly every utterance can be filled with meaning. He had high praise for all of these artists and said in particular that Bowie is brilliant. He told of how Zappa, after doing a big show in Nashville, asked his driver what kind of groups he (the driver) liked, and the driver mentioned this little band that Adrian was in at the time called The Sweethearts (or Sweetheart ~ I'm not sure). So Zappa went to this Nashville club, saw Adrian, and told him afterwards that he wanted to have Adrian audition. Six months went by and Adrian kind of dismissed the whole thing. But Zappa called him after the six months and kept his promise. Zappa auditioned 50 guitarists, according to Adrian, and picked him. How's that for pressure? Adrian said that working with Zappa was quite demanding, but he had nothing negative to say about it. Later, when they had been touring, supposedly Zappa mentioned Adrian to Bowie (Adrian wasn't aware of this). At a show, during a particular song when Zappa was soloing, some of the musicians, including Adrian, could walk to the side of the stage. He turns and walks over to some amps and there's Bowie and Iggy Pop. Adrian (very funnily) described going up to them and saying, "Hello David, I just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed your music...," blah, blah, blah...and Bowie says something like, "That's very nice of you to say. I want you to be my guitarist." It was great how Adrian retold this. Adrian spoke of the trials and tribulations of not being a "huge" artist like The Stones. He told of putting out one of The Bears' records, going out on tour, and finding out in the middle of the tour that the label had folded. He has requested many times that his early albums such as Twang Bar King be rereleased, but these requests have apparently fallen on deaf ears. He joked about how some labels seem to have new executives every year and you have to speak to a new "ear" each time you call. When asked about his creative process, Adrian said that writing the music is easy. He is hardly ever at a loss for a new "melody," but the words, timing, and putting the whole thing together is what's a killer. He recalled a conversation with Paul Simon, who had the same approach (and that sometimes, he ~ Simon ~ just sits and literally tosses a ball against a wall until the right words flow into his head). Adrian spoke of the difficulties with the Crim double-trio concept, and that "sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't so much." He mentioned having written a piece that has a segment where it's really a single trio that is demanded, so it can be a bit tricky (he didn't specify which song). When asked about how different it has been working with Zappa versus Fripp, he said that it has been a real creative partnership with Fripp. He enjoys sitting down and composing with him together (my pitifully succinct words, not Adrian's), and likened their collaboration to a kind of "weird Lennon & McCartney." There's no way I'm going to remember and be able to repeat everything he talked about in the 45 or so minutes that he talked. Sorry but the brain cells don't work that well anymore. It was a great short evening, and I'd like to thank Adrian and Bibelot's bookstore for making it possible. I feel sorry for those who did not hear about this event far enough in advance. ~Mark P.S. In the middle of performing 'Dinosaur,' right after the quiet part, and he began to strum his guitar louder and louder, he said out loud, "Where's Mr. Bruford!?" Pretty funny. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #575 ********************************