E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Issue Number 567 Monday, 18 January 1999 Today's Topics: GIG BIZ: "Earthworks" UK Gig Looking for Bruford/Moraz - Music for Piano & Drums cd Projekcts' live releases & Collins/Fripp/Burrell/Wallace-KC DGM Guestbook mouseposts DGM Guestbook and ET (revisited) Progression Starless & Bible Black Totally Thrakking Headgear. Lizard prog rock Review:Deja Vroom michael brook Lizard KC: What Kind Of Band? 30th Anniversary Zappa & Fripp Fracture for the fractals From Blaine, reply from Bill deja VROOOM Please won't the Greater Crim Tour Again! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is temporarily being produced using Cheetah PRO Mailing Systems (c) Black Cat Software Factory (info at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Saturday, 16 Jan 1999 10:02:14 From: lee at waterleat dot demon dot co dot uk (Lee Fletcher) Subject: GIG BIZ: "Earthworks" UK Gig Dear ET Readers, I received a newsletter from Poole Arts Centre this morning announcing the return of Bill Bruford's "Earthworks" to the venue. The gig will be on Thursday 27th May at the Jazz Club, (8.00pm.) My wife and I attended their previous show in September of last year, and I would recommend that any Bruford fans within reach do the same this time around. You won't be disappointed. Maybe see you there... Regards, Lee & Lisa Fletcher (p.s. are there any other ET readers/home recording musicians living in South Devon, England? - the last time I posted this question I received one reply, from Watford!) ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 11:15:26 From: Gabe_Camacho at usccmail dot lehman dot com (Gabe Camacho) Subject: Looking for Bruford/Moraz - Music for Piano & Drums cd The few recent posts offering cd copies of Bruford/Moraz's Flags cd have reminded me of my need for a copy of their first cd: Music for Piano and Drums (Editions EG, EGED 33) (1983) Is there any kind soul out there who could spare a copy or has seen one for sale? I'm also looking for a copy of Come Together - A Guitar Tribute to the Beatles featuring our man Adrian (NYC Records 6004). Please let me know at Gabe_Camacho at usccmail dot lehman dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 01:35:54 From: nikbrueckner at hotmail dot com (Dominik brueckner) Subject: Projekcts' live releases & Collins/Fripp/Burrell/Wallace-KC Hello from Germany! Does anybody know what happened to "live groove" and "Jazz cafe"? The live CDs had been announced for last november but have not been released yet. The excerpts featured on the new DGM-sampler made me curious, but I couldn't find out why the CDs have been delayed and when they are going to be released. Will they be available outside the collectors' club? And what happened to the live CD of the Burrell/Collins/Fripp/Wallace lineup? (also promised for 1998 as "Earthbound II")? Will there be any release apart from "Live at Jacksonville? Thankful for any answers, Dominik ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 17:21:45 From: chriss at glass dot co dot uk Subject: DGM Guestbook mouseposts I admit: I have taken part in advising RF how to off the mice. It seemed appropriate because while I don't know shit about music, I do know about old houses and killing rodents, whereas RF's position seemed the absolute opposite. Advising RF about musical matters seems as silly as a passenger complaining to the pilot about the way he's flying the plane: they may both be airborne and dependant on each other behaving, but one of them is far better informed about what's going on. Snuffing rodents is more my level. What I wouldn't do is rubbish ET, since it's an important forum for discussing things that shouldn't be discussed in the subject's front room. The DGM Guestbook seems to be being used for all manner of strange purposes just lately, whether for suggesting Fripp is the Devil Incarnate or just for slagging him and/or each other off. The 'Ecce Frippo' experiment must be rather painful for the Frippo in question, although I expect he expected it. Maybe things will calm down again, but it's hard to be optimistic in the face of such inanities and weirdness. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 10:04:52 From: nomad_stem at hotmail dot com (Nomad Stem) Subject: DGM Guestbook and ET (revisited) In ET 566 I wrote about the DGM Guestbook. I feel compelled to add to my comments following postings there in the past few days. I don't know if this is the handy work of one incredibly immature person, or a sudden massing of idiots, but the end result is a DGM Guestbook replete with trash, filth and disrespect. Fripp has insisted on either reading all or reading none. He obviously has a better stomach for this crap than I do. I hope that these people are not ETers. I'm guessing they are not, and have faith that Toby and Mike will spare us their pathetic posts if they are. Nomad [ You can be assured that neither Toby nor I will publish anything in ET that doesn't deserve to be. -- Mike ] ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 10:07:25 From: btpmsi at email dot msn dot com (Brian T. Perkins) Subject: Progression >he doesn't feel KC to be a "prog" band in >the sense that we all roughly define the term. It's easy to slap a label on something and then just close your mind to the facts. I think we all fall into this trap to some degree. See "grunge". I suppose these labels are most valuable when you are describing something to someone else without them actually able to experience it first hand. See "Corporate record labels/management" Consider the experience of all the Chambers Brothers fans who came to the Fillmore that evening in December and had their ears and minds widen a bit. Do you suppose some of them "progressed" that night? :) Cheers, Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 99 15:50:53 E From: campaigner at usa dot net (James Dusewicz) Subject: Starless & Bible Black A couple of years ago or so I purchased a copy of SBB on cassette tape. Upon playing it in my car tapedeck I found that side one was mono and side two(corresponding to both sides of the lp) was in stereo. I only bought it for $1.99 on Gem records. Was there ever a mono mix of side one of SBB? Is this a mistake? jim campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 14:15:55 From: cetlange at hotmail dot com (Christopher Lange) Subject: Totally Thrakking Headgear. ET'ers, First time writer here... Bill Lantz, in one of the last issues, mentioned wearing a Thrak hat to a CGT gig. WHERE CAN I GET ONE? (I wasn't aware DGM had a merchandising section.) What do they look like? (Just the Thrak Logo? What?) Can anyone help? Day Fripper ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 23:30:33 From: msafier at ozemail dot com dot au (Marcel Safier) Subject: Lizard Pat Nolan patnolan at indigo dot ie > I'm updating my vinyl for CD. I've waited and waited for a > re-mastered Lizard but have yet to see one. > Other titles in the series are available re-mastered but not > this. The only CDs in retail outlets are dated 1970 or so, > when the original title first appeared. > Is there a re-mastered CD of Lizard available now (or in the > future)? Benjamin Adler badler at hehe dot com wrote: Subject: somebody's post about "Lizard" If you can find "The First Three" Box, which I own, there are the '89 "Definitive Versions" of said picture disks (ICofCK,IntheWofP, & Lizard). calmanor at pce dot net (Drew W. Eaton) wrote: > Pat Nolan inquired about upgrading his vinyl Lizard and was > discouraged about the lack of a remaster....Pat, as I > understand, the entire back studio catalog is going to be > released on 20-bit Japanese gold discs. Shipping is supposed > to start maybe early February....very limited. Those of us who were around in the 80s who bought the original releases of the KC 70s and 80s albums on CD would perhaps have been both delighted (to hear the music in better condition) and in a way annoyed (at haven't forked out for the original releases and having to decide whether spring for the new ones) when the catalogue was re-mastered. I bought a new set of CDs (up to and including Discipline) and kept the old ones as well. All the albums (including Lizard - it sits beside me while I am typing this) were re-issued and carried the wording THE DEFINITIVE EDITION. Re-mastered by Robert Fripp and Tony Arnold 1989 on the rear CD case insert except for Discipline where you have to open the booklet to find this. I don't know about Beat or TOAPP because I didn't buy the remasters of those. I believe it is these remastered versions that have been on sale since then including in the 3 CD picture disc set containing the first 3 albums. The only way a shop would still be carrying the original releases is if they had 10 year old stock. Perhaps they dropped the additional wording at some stage? Also Islands was in fact issued in a half speed mastered version on vinyl which is moderately superior in sound to the standard vinyl release (does anyone else have a copy of this?). Jon Wrote: > I've been listening to king crimson for awhile now and I'm > also into elp and genesis and I have noticied something I > don't think I like. The remastered versions of the KC > albums are kinda poor in comparison to say a Genesis album > or an ELP album from the same time. In the Court... is good > and In the wake... is as well and Lizard isn't bad. But > Islands is poor. Fripp has stated that he will continue to re-issue the back catalogue using the latest technology available at the time, so this is no surprise. I don't believe that 20 bit sampling was employed in 1989 when the KC remasters were done but it was later used by Atlantic for the Yes, Genesis, Led Zep and ELP remasters. When/if 24 bit 96kHz digitisation is eventually used for CDs expect the catalogue to be issued again with sound even closer to what is on the master tapes. Cheers! Marcel ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 22:01:44 From: aqd at connection dot com (derek andrew orford) Subject: prog rock So R.F. prefers not to think of Crimson as a prog band. It seems to me that the reason we shouldn't think of K.C. as a prog band is that generally the "prog" refers to the fact that most of these bands get progressively worse throughout their recorded output. I think a better term for Crimson would be "reg"rock, as they seem to get regressively better with time. Any thoughts? ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Jan 1999 23:06:01 From: Enoboy at aol dot com Subject: Review:Deja Vroom I've now had a lot of time to sit and go through the DVD, so I can present a reasonable report on it. Fundamentally, it is a very good live representation of the band. The performances are excellent and capture the essence of the band. The song selection is good and flows together quite well. I would recommend it as an introduction to the band. On some songs, there are multiple camera angles available. On "Vroom Vroom," there are actually 7 angles; one of the entire band and one for each musician. What is very unique is that the mix changes and focuses on that particular player. Now you can tell who is playing what in the double trio. "Three of a Perfect Pair" allows a main angle and a Tony angle. "Frame by Frame" give a Robert angle, "Indiscipline" gives a Bill and Adrian angle, and "People" gives an alternative angle. There are also some additional features that are only possible with DVD. There are copious notes from Fripp, lots of photos, and a video "Road Diary" by T. Levin. The most fun item is the "21st Century Schizoid Band." The DVD allows you to select a Rhythm section, soloist, and vocalist from any of the 1969, 1971, 1974, or 1996 versions of KC. You can combine them in anyway you wish, such as Adrian singing lead with David Cross performing the solo backed up by Fripp, Lake and Giles. As you listen, lots of still photos flash on the screen. One item to look out for is a "hidden" Soundscapes performance. You can access it whilst reading Fripps notes when you highlight the DGM Logo. Overall, the sound quality is quite good and they didn't do anything annoying in the 5 channel mix, which so many artists are prone to do nowadays. The video quality is OK at best, and true to form, Fripp hides in darkness throughout. My biggest criticism is that the Menu format is truly terrible. It is confusing and very difficult to navigate. It took me ten minutes to figure out how to switch from DTS to AC-3 (by going deeper and deeper into different menus) , and the instructions included are simply incorrect. Overall, however, I am really happy to have this DVD available, as it fills in for the lack of a live band. To me it is the best representation of this incarnation of KC yet. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 15 Jan 1999 12:38:30 From: chris at creativeonlinemedia dot com (Chris McGarel) Subject: michael brook I recently acquired a copy of Damage after many years of searching and I believe it to be one of the truly great guitar albums. Fripp's playing on 'Wave' is breathtakingly beautiful while Michael Brook adds colour and a few mean leads of his own. Does anyone know where I can get the CD of Michael Brook Live at the London Aquarium? I have a cassette copy which I am in serious danger of wearing out. Also if any Irish KC fans are reading this get in touch. Chris McGarel ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 15 Jan 1999 01:59:38 From: earpro at gate dot net (Jeffrey L. Lutes) Subject: Lizard I bought Crimson's Lizard album as soon as it got to the stores in the 70's. And over the years, somewhere in my travels, (I'm a musician), I became separated with it. Just wanted to say, I recently picked up Lizard on CD. And after many years of not hearing this album, I was just blown away by what a great piece of work Lizard truly is! I've listened to it every day for two weeks now. I usually never do that with any CD! Jeff Lutes earpro at gate dot net Clear Soul Productions ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 15 Jan 1999 14:31:04 From: mbschaefer at cvn dot net (The Schaefers) Subject: KC: What Kind Of Band? Dear Crimpersons, This is my first posting. I have been a Crimso fan since a delightful evening in 1974 when a dear friend turned me on to the pleasures found in ITCOTCK. Immediately, I acquired the KC catalog released to that date, and have acquired every release since. Something that has ALWAYS bothered me about music is the way people label it. Perhaps it is just human nature to want to label everything one comes in contact with, but to me: GOOD MUSIC IS GOOD MUSIC. It is an opinion. It is personal. Others will label KC "prog rock", "heavy metal", "art rock", etc. It is none of that. All I know is that I like it; it is good music to me. Some persons I know will automatically turn their noses up to music labeled in a certain way precisely because of that label. They are missing out on some great music. If it moves you, if it makes you happy, if it always makes you return to it, and if you LIKE it, then it is good music. King Crimson is all of that to me, and to millions of others. I think those who label music have a closed-mindedness about them that clouds their enjoyment of the music they are hearing. One of the greatest joys you can experience (just one!) comes when you play King Crimson for someone who has never heard KC before (or has never really LISTENED to KC). I have yet to find someone in that position who has NOT become an instant devotee to all things Crimson. Anyway, sorry for proselytizing; I suspect I'm preaching to the choir. I hope no one minds me sharing my opinion. "I don't know why I like it, I just do" Mike Schaefer ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 15 Jan 1999 15:40:13 From: randall dot hammill at snet dot net (Randall Hammill) Subject: 30th Anniversary Hello all, I am sure I will not be the only one posting my opinion about the 30th Anniversary line-up possibilities that Robert posted at DGM. I do not know if they are still actively thinking about some sort of ProjeKct/Reunion, but here's my two cent's worth. I would like any of the suggestions that Robert posted, but since there seems to be a disagreement primarily between Ian and Robert, I would propose the following amendment to option two. How about a ProjeKct consisting of John Wetton, Michael Giles, Robert Fripp and Trey Gunn. They could still focus on the material from '69-'74, but have ample opportunity for improvisation and new music. Between Robert and Trey they would not need somebody to worry about mellotron, and I'll bet they'd do a killer version of Starless, among others. To a large degree, I am not sure what a Robert Fripp ProjeKct would sound like at this time without Trey. (Anybody who has seen any of the ProjeKcts live will know what I mean). I understand both Robert's and Ian's positions, so I don't want to imply that I do not want Ian involved. The only thing I would worry about if the original line-up decided to perform together would be the intentions of the band. If they were just going to get together to play the '69 material, then I am not sure how good that would be. Don't get me wrong, with the current technology as well as the talent of all involved the music would sound incredible. We would also have available a great live recording from that line-up. But a large part of the appeal (at least to me) of the original line-up, and the reason it doesn't sound dated, is the forward-looking approach they took. Their innocence at the time, as well as the intention of expanding upon the material they had written has always been part of what defines King Crimson. So, in that spirit, they would have to approach it with the idea of doing something new. They would certainly be capable of improvs, but they probably would sound nothing like what they would have come up with had they continued after '69. In essence, if the purpose is to relive the past, it isn't possible. Most 'reunion' tours are to play old material, and recreate the past. For most bands this is little trouble, because the material is performed in much the same way every time. But if you listen to the live material available, Crimson is always evolving. More importantly, there is always something new being added, especially in an improvisational format. I would love to hear what the '69 line-up would come up with at this point, but I am not sure it would be what people would expect. I doubt very much that it would sound like they did when they were improvising in '69. I guess it comes down to something that Robert has always talked about. The music has as much to do with time and place as the people involved. I most definitely want to hear more of the older material played live, but in a context that is looking towards the future, and not towards the past. To put together various ProjeKcts that include any member of the Crimson history would allow the past to be revisited in a forward-looking manner. Ultimately, the past members could be contributing to the future of Crimson, even if they choose to do it in short hit-and-run type collaborations. Imagine Epitaph with soundscapes instead of mellotrons... Anyway, whatever happens, thanks to all Crimson members for the many years of great music, and I hope that there will be involvement from all who have played with the Crimson King. Randall Hammill randall dot hammill at snet dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 17 Jan 1999 01:38:23 From: pdrubetskoy at hotmail dot com (Peter Drubetskoy) Subject: Zappa & Fripp Well, answering the obscure named "#563" request if, Fripp ever expressed his opinion on Zappa or something like that, I do not know, but when FZ was asked about RF, he said he had never heard of him. You can find this interview with FZ http://www.fwi.uva.nl/~heederik/zappa/interviews/picturedisc2.html For those lazy and reluctant to follow the link, I'll add that in this interview FZ is asked about many other guitar wizards and has very intersting judgements (so you DO should go there), and for FZ fans who are unfamiliar with this site (St. Alphonzo's Pancake Homepage - http://www.fwi.uva.nl/~heederik/zappa/), well, its maybe the best Zappian site, so you should go there too! Cheers, Peter. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 17 Jan 1999 06:32:08 From: TWODOLLAZ at aol dot com Subject: Fracture for the fractals In my humble opinion, it seems to me that both the double trio and the fractal versions of Krimson have missed out on what seems like a an obvious move......PLAY FRACTURE FOR THE LOVE OF GODS AND GODDESSES EVERYWHERE!! I know that Krimson {or at least Robert Fripp}, are trying to down play the roll of their past songs and instrumentals at thier shows in favor of research and development but,my god , how did they pass up playing Fracture at least once in the last decade! Can you imagine what the double trio could have done with Fracture with soundscapes and Belew's guitar whales and chimes in full effect{easily filling the space left by David Cross}, and pulsating/interlocking drum patterns curtiosy of mssrs Bruford and Mastelotto. Trey Gunn could play pedal bass notes and wind gushes to Levin's embelishments of the original. I hope that they stop playing at least one of thier usual past instumentals in favor of a tune that truly deserves to see the light of day again. I believe that Krimson could make a huge impact on the current staleness of todays boring musical enviroment if they take the time{as my guitar guru Mr. Belew suggest}, to record thier best albumn yet as i believe all the ingridients are there and alot of people are waiting {unknowingly or not}, for King Crimson to really shake things up. As a fan of the band i would like to suggest a dark and intricate albumn yet one that would shake off the shitttags ''Progressive Rock'', and ''Art Rock'' ,for good. However, I would rather the band ignore my suggestions and just do what they will{gee ,do you think that would be the case anyway }, I never saw how Krimson was lumped together with all those ''Progressive'' bands anyway ,considering Krimson were and are actually progressive and exploreative while those other band were pretentious and just didn't sound good. King Crimson actually have the power to skake up this world if the choose to . ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 17 Jan 1999 09:53:31 From: bforth at pacbell dot net (William Forth) Subject: From Blaine, reply from Bill > A comment: It looks to me as if the DGM Guestbook is becoming as > disgusting, negative, irrelevant, and pretentious as most of ET. Have > you seen the latest bit of garbage - several "guests" are engaged in > some sort of bidding/trading operation for nude pictures of Robert's > wife! Excuse my language but can you tell me what the fuck is going on? > Guestbook visitors are either busy ripping each other apart or worse, > ripping Robert apart. Despite the exceptions, why this carnage? Hi Blaine, I haven't read the DGM guestbook page recently, but I will check it out. It's an open, uncensored forum, and as such, a window. Why not post your thoughts, too, if you feel so strongly? The current level of public discussion on the Internet strikes me as pathetic. To answer your question, why this carnage? The answer is: because this is the state of their world. And, never before have so many idiots had so many open lines of communication. I view it all as growing pains. Let those who can see a better way raise the standard with courtesy and maturity, and by restricting commentary to the relevant. Best wishes, Bill Forth ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 17 Jan 1999 23:10:33 From: robertc at uclink dot berkeley dot edu (Rob Cervero) Subject: deja VROOOM If you don't yet have a DVD player and you're a big Crimson fan, you should seriously consider picking one up, and soon. I got an advance copy of deja VROOOM and, hey, it's a blast. It's the same '95 show as "Live in Japan", but, as expected, the video and sound quality are quantumly better than VHS. The real treat is that on four of the songs (Vrooom Vrooom, 3oaPP, Indiscipline, and People), you can select and view multiple angles of the performance. Most fun is Vrooom Vrooom which provides seven different view-sheds -- each band member's perspective plus that of the audience. For fellow guitarists out there, try Fripp's vector on Vrooom Vrooom -- you can literally follow his playing, chord-by-chord, note-by-note (...now only if I can figure out how he tunes his Fernandez). However it's the hidden treasures tucked away on each each side of the disc that makes deja VROOOM a must-purchase for the true-blue Crimson aficianado. At "The Court of King Crimson" on side one lies: historical text of the band ("Entry of the Crims"...pretty much the liner notes found on Epitaph, Night Watch, Marquee '69, & Jacksonville); PJ Crook's art work; band members' web sites ("Dig Me"); list of Crimso appearances on the tube ("Frame by Frame"); and Fripp's laments about music critics ("The Mincer") and ethics of the music industry ("Endless Grief"). Better yet is side 2 of the disc that features Tony's road movies from Japan (auto-racing, rehearsals, train stations, Mr. Bill, etc. -- about 20 minutes worth, with the audio replaced by a fun mix of Thrakattak, Upper Extremities, soundscapes, & CGT) and the 21st Century Schizoid Man "band". For those of you who "scream for more", finding the five versions on the "Schizoid Man" CD not enough, now you can assemble 64 different combinations of Crimson's all-time metal tune! I got through about seven permutations till I was pretty much schizoid-out (and my wife was about to ring my neck). Courtesy of Mr. Singleton, you can mix rhythm sections, voice, and instrumentalists from four Crimson eras: 1969, 1971, 1974, and 1996. (Vocal options are obvious; instrumentalist choices are Ian, Mel, David, and Ade.) So far, I favor the mix of the '96 band's poly-rhythms, Wetton's soulful vocals from '74, and Ian's blazing sax of '69. (Dan: this will make a fun poll in about three month's time -- ETer's favorite and least favorite combos of Schizoid Man.) Kudos to DGM for putting this out. Once again, Fripp & company have chartered new grounds. This ain't a paid promo for DGM, rather a enthusiastic endorsement from an enthusiast. Get it. Dig it. Sit, watch, listen, groove, enjoy! ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 18 Jan 1999 09:41:35 From: KKeller968 at aol dot com Subject: Please won't the Greater Crim Tour Again! From that autmn day in 1976 when I frist got my 8-track version of "Red," to today, as I enjoy my Collector's Club version of Jacksonville ' 72, I have been a great lover of Crimson music. To me, this band excells, no matter who surrounds Master Fripp. To those ETers who have yet to do so, JOIN THE COLLECTORS CLUB! The music is great so far. Is there any chance at all of the Double Trio touring in ' 99? I read in ET newsletters that Robert and Bill are not interested in extensive touring. I don't blame them. But, should they make my day and hit the road, I hope they find their way to a 200 mile radius of Northern Virginia. If they do, I'll be there! Master Fripp once wrote that live performing is a hot date, as opposed to recorded music being a love letter. I've really been enjoying the love letters, but I am more than ready for a hot date! Come on, guys! Go on tour! Please!!!!!! Sincerely, Dennis Keller (Crimsoid of 23 years) ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #567 ********************************