E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Issue Number 564 Saturday, 9 January 1999 Today's Topics: J.G. Bennett Past People Appearences Sylvian Discipline via Marimba??? Epitaph CD Damage #563 Fripp on Water DGM CC #2 Collector's Club Elephant Tape Discovery Have I offended someone? Any reviews of Haskell gigs? Deja Vroom Have I offended someone, revision #1 Deja Vroooom zoned? Peter Giles PROJEkCT 2 in Nashville Tn. Box Sets ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is temporarily being produced using Cheetah PRO Mailing Systems (c) Black Cat Software Factory (info at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1999 09:13:50 From: ekirchner at deltadentalil dot com (Eric Kirchner DDPIL) Subject: J.G. Bennett Plenty of references abound regarding J.G. Bennett, Sherbourne House and so forth. I checked the FAQ and some other reference material, and I'm still in the dark about this topic. Can anyone out there explain the man and the philosophy that obviously has made such an impression on RF? I'm sure someone has asked this before, but if someone could sketch it out I'd be obliged. If Toby obliges, it might be a good post to E-T in general, but if I'm repeating a dead thread, perhaps a private reply would be best. Regards, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1999 12:12:46 From: dschippe at ford dot com (David Schipper R) Subject: Past People Appearences While wondering around during the Christmas break over here in the states, I found an interesting find in one of the buget bins...a CD called _Links_ imported from Germany. It has the following persons playing on it: Jack Bruce - Bass Mark Charig - Cornet Jorg Drewing - Trombone Dick Heckstall-Smith - Saxes John Marshall - Drums Wolfgang Mirbach - Piano (who also wrote most of the songs) Joe Sachse - Guitar I picked it up 'cause I was familar with previous works which had Bruce, Charig, and Heckstall-Smith on them. Mark Charig played with KC on the _Island_ and _Lizard_ recordings and I always wondered what happened to those people who played on them but were not part of "the band" so to speak. (They were listed as the other people who played on the LP's). This comes from '92, so Mark seems to be still active. BTW, the recording falls into what I call the "Jazz-Fusion" type of work - more along the lines of Corea's Return To Forever stuff. Well worth the time to pick it up. Dave S. NP: New York Rock'n'Roll Ensemble - Reflections - Street Song ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1999 14:30:37 From: MStack at saharanet dot com (Stack, Mike) Subject: Sylvian ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com said: > Oddly, however, Sylvian himself seems to sort of want to > distance himself from the fripp collaborations. In fact, > states: "I wasn't happy with the work I did with Robert > particularly, Robert was leading things a little more than > was; he instigated the project, but i felt I never felt i > got to grips with it. It wasn't a particularly stable time > in my life either, so I didn't feel focused on the work at > all". I would agree with this statement, actually. While I enjoyed _The First Day_ (and _Damage_), the collaboration was more Fripp than it was Sylvian, especially in the studio. Live it was more balanced I think, but the music was guitar driven, relatively free of synths, and far and away more Frippish, than it was Sylvianish. I would actually go as far as to say Crimsonish moreso than anything else. I'm don't usually think of the Sylvian/Fripp stuff as part of DS's canon, as it is so far detracted from things such as Sylvian's wonderous _Secrets of the Beehive_. That album, in addition to being stunning, pure and simple, was a natural extension of _Gone to Earth_, which in turn was a natural extension of _Brilliant Trees_, which in turn was a natural extension of the last Japan album. The question that begs to be raised is this-- could _The First Day_ be a natural extension of Beehive? Probably not. Parts of the Syl/Fripp material, "Jean the Birdman", "The First Day", "Damage", "Ingrid's Wheels", these are very much in the vein of the last Sylvian album. But I think the lack of focus Syl was referring to was moreso to the album as his own vision rather than mostly Fripp's vision. Of course, one would argue that with a collaborator such as Fripp, this is to be expected, but then, one could also argue that with a collaborator as strong as Sylvian, this should also be expected. mike ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1999 12:38:0 From: crash at waste dot org (Todd Madson) Subject: Discipline via Marimba??? I recently ate at a restaurant called Cafe' Odyssey in the Mall of America in Bloomington Minnesota. The restaurant is set-up as four or five separate themes, and my party was placed in the "african" simulation. A giant videowall slowly displays simulated african scenes and the decor was full of plants, artifacts, and it was really quite different from anywhere I've ever dined. How this relates to Crimson is the following: while we were waiting for our food, the music being played in the background slowly began to insinuate itself into my consciousness. It was then that I recognized the piece of music. I listened before announcing what I had discovered, but before too long I said to one of our party: "this sounds like Discipline.." The friend also recognized it. The instrumentation sounded like marimbas and bass with no drumming that I could hear. Does anyone know if a cover version of discipline was ever produced with this instrumentation? The rest of the music played during the meal was a sort of dark, ambient affair with quiet percussion. -Todd ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 06 Jan 1999 15:31:43 From: drolem at videotron dot ca (Michel Drolet) Subject: Epitaph CD > kevin beaulieu wrote: > Subject: Epitaph CD > > I recently received "Epitaph" as a Christmas gift. I noticed during "A Man, A > City" on Volume II, there occurs at the 1:55 mark of the song one full second > of silence. This passage is obviously not part of the song, but sounds like a > glitch in the recording. Does anyone else have this on their > CD (I know the source tapes had their problems) or is this a defective CD? I am > getting conflicting answers from different sources. Thank you. > > Kevin Beaulieu I'm listening to this cd right now and I don't seem to hear any glitch in this particular song. Maybe there's a batch of Epitaph that are mispressed. I bought mine on the same week of release maybe yours is a second printing? It happened sometimes: Marillion's This Strange Engine first US printing has a glitch at the beginning of the song Memory Of Water. Michel ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 06 Jan 1999 18:04:39 From: mchapman at langley dot edu dot net (Mark Chapman) Subject: Damage This guy has a copy of Damage ~ he only wants $35 U.S. for it. (haha) http://www.ricksdiscs.com/ The race is on! ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1999 17:12:09 From: Bolinhed at aol dot com Subject: #563 <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> She sang on the Page/Plant "Unledded" thang, doing a GREAT job on "Battle of Evermore" - gorgeous singing. The Fripp parody in ET #563 referenced Zappa; I do not know enough Zapp to judge but does anyone see much similarity between Zapp and Fripp, not SPECIFICALLY musically but somewhat more re: their philosophy of music? (I said SOMEWHAT dammit). I know Adrian Belew played in FZ's band; has Frippster ever talked about Zapp? Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1999 17:56:46 From: rtc at sirius dot com (Robert Cambra) Subject: Fripp on Water Hello ETers, While grazing the used CD bins recently I came across a wonderful little album previously unknown to me, David Cunningham's "Water" (Made To Measure Vol.31). Some of you may remember Cunningham's Flying Lizards, on whose albums Fripp contributed; and as a serendipitous bonus he does on this one too . It's a meditative, ambient sort of album; dark and a little scary in parts, especially the one piece Fripp contributes to--it reminds me of the title music to the movie "Crash." You are lucky if you find it--recommended! Robert Cambra San Francisco ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Jan 1999 21:36:18 From: spunky at fireball dot blast dot net (Jim McLaughlin) Subject: DGM CC #2 Dear Crimpersons: I've been a following the antics of KC & the Frippster since the mid '70s I have this strange quirk. ("Only one?" my friends and associates would interject.) When I am thoroughly enjoying music such as the type subject to this newsletter, I tend to laugh under my breath. Its not quite a giggle... I'm told it has more of an "evil tone" and I don't really know I'm doing it. As I sit here thoroughly enjoying release #2, my wife (of six years) thinks I'm going insane! Regards! Jim (Spunky's my dog!) ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 Jan 1999 08:26:28 From: wmo at interserv dot com (charles / wmo) Subject: Collector's Club >Personally, I think my $96 was a good investment. I couldn't agree more even though I don't think I'll ever play #1 again - after about 30 minutes I had to turn that one off. #2 is more durable, and with any luck the Zoom Club may even be better! This CC is very forward thinking by our friends at DGM. So I have a few questions for the list - 1. Does anyone actually read the "extended" liner notes - I love KC and all, but Fripps diary? Is he serious? Save on the film printing costs - and invest the time in the studio. 2. Will there ever be a CC release that is sonically equivalent to a "commercial" release? That would be more of a treat than Diary notes for the Internet-Challenged Crimso fan. 3. When will it end? charles wmo at interserv dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 Jan 1999 08:06:57 From: ekirchner at deltadentalil dot com (Eric Kirchner DDPIL) Subject: Elephant Tape Discovery I have been a big fan of Elephant Tape, and I want to share with other E-Ters the music of Stephan Thelen who is currently one of the featured artists. Having corresponded with this gentleman after expressing interest in his music, I've become a big fan. Specifically, I recommend his CD Boy On A Swing - I firmly believe that it compares very favorably with my favorite Robert Fripp Soundscape albums: A Blessing of Tears and That Which Passes. He also works as part of a project known as Radio Osaka (also featured on Elephant Tape), which is "Crimson-esque" without being a rehash. I have no financial interest in extolling Stephan's work; I just feel his ability is damn good and E-Ters who like Soundscapes will enjoy his material. So many of you have turned me on to other artists, and I hope that this recommendation returns the favor. Look for him on the Elephant Tape page! Regards, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 07 Jan 1999 09:21:11 From: micheljch at hotmail dot com (Michel Champagne) Subject: Have I offended someone? It has come to my attention that I have been misunderstood by at least one member of the ET community in my characterization of Boz and Ian Wallace on the Jacksonville CD as "more than adequate": "Mel Collins is in fine form throughout and Ian Wallace and Boz function more than adequately, stomping through "Pictures of a City" and "Circus," two eye-openers for me personally." These two pieces were eye-openers for me because I longed to hear this lineup perform more early KC material and immensely enjoyed the opportunity after so many years to finally have the opportunity. I was, perhaps deservedly, scolded thusly: >Ian Wallace and Boz Burrell function "more than adequately"? Please >take more care with your postings. Almost no one subscribing to ET is >in a position to measure the minute differences between musicians of >this calibre.....and Ian and Boz do not deserve to be damned with such >faint praise. And they created this wild, blowing version of King >Crimson. You and I are looking at monitor and a keyboard 27 years >later. "More than adequately??????" (Whew!) Perhaps I was not as delicate as some would wish, so I'll try again. Ian Wallace and Boz Burrell have long been lambasted by Crim-afficianados (including the ones that attended their shows) as being sub-par musicians and, given the type of music thrust upon them (the first 3 KC albums-worth) to perform in a live setting and the reaults thereof, this is an opinion than can be defended to some extent, but it is _not_ true. I have personally been a semi-professional musician (in the past, before I needed an income I could rely upon) and so I do not take such criticism lightly myself. But Ian and Boz were simply not as well up to this _type_ of playing as were their predecessors. Completant musicians in their own right? Most certainly. Fine players (to use RF's terms)? Definitely. Who has heard the LP they (and Mel) recorded with Alexis Korner immediately after leaving KC? For what it is, it's great, but it ain't KC, nor should it be. Who on this list listens to this record as much as ANY KC release? Have we forgotten the interview with Boz where he jokes about stymieing RF by starting up a 12-bar blues jam and leaving Fripp out "because he can't play a 12-bar blues" (paraphrased) - Gee, there's some things that RF wasn't good at too! What a surprise. I was being somewhat sarcastic in my use of the term "more than adequately". Anybody with the balls to get up on a stage and do what these guys did has my respect. And I truly enjoy the sonic results, although not via comparison to other versions of the "same" material. But recall also Mel, Boz and Ian's complaint in another (or maybe the same) interview of the time that they had musical ideas to offer and Fripp was (apparently) not entertaining these ideas, an idea corroborated by Fripp by saying (elsewhere,probably) that _he_ was interested in writing for KC and that there was basically no room for any other input. I am recalling all of this from memory as I am at work, but it's all there in the "Young Person's Guide" and "frame by frame" scrapbooks. The upshot here is that, regarding the "Creation" of this version of KC, while they all split the revenue and functioned "as a group", Robert (and Pete Sinfield) were in the driver's seat. Sinfield so much as describes the group as a "pyramid" with himself and RF at the top, in yet another interview . . . This was apparently to some degree true for "Poseidon", "Lizard," and "Islands." Take note of the verbiage "Produced and Directed by Robert Fripp and Peter Sinfield" that appears on all three of these releases. "Directed?" Where else have you seen this on a "group" effort? The dichotomy of this "wild, blowing" version of King Crimson, as covered in Fripps journals and press clippings of the era, was an experiment that worked, as far as I'm concerned, because it re-formed the existing repertoire to the style of the group. Notice that the tempos of all pre-existing material (e.g. "Pictures of a City," "Cirkus," and "21st Century Schizoid Man" are all very noticably slower (hence my use of the term "stomp"), and go in vastly different places in solo sections than the original (and subsequent) recordings. Unfortunately is was also one doomed to failure, if for no other reason than the disparity between Fripp's personality and that of the rest of the group (again, read the interviews). "Islands" and "Earthbound" have long been two of my favorite KC recordings, in part because I don't hold them up to the rest of the KC catalog, and vice versa. This band was a totally different animal. Every KC has been a totally different animal. This is (part of) what makes KC so exciting, and bears out RF's description of KC as "a way of doing things." My detractor summed up his feelings with the following: >My opinion is that you should think before you type. Perhaps, but this is not rocket science, and I was so excited about the CD that I just _had_ to post a giddy hoo-hah note about it. Can you please forgive me?! ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 Jan 1999 12:38:28 From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Any reviews of Haskell gigs? Since none have been posted I was wondering if any ETers attended the recent Gordon Haskell shows, and could post a review. I'm curious as to how the shows went, what material he played, and it was received. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 Jan 1999 21:31:44 From: Enoboy at aol dot com Subject: Deja Vroom I just got a copy of the new DVD, although I have had very little time to go through it. No, it is not out yet, I was just lucky. It is a very clever package, with neat tricks that most DVDs do not utilize. There is a version of Vroom Vroom in which the viewer has the ability to focus the mix (although not the camera angle) on a particular player during the song. There are songs that have the same capacity but only for one or two members rather than all 6. I tracked through most of the songs and they all seemed good. The picture quality is OK at best, while the audio quality is better. I suspect that the picture quality had to be kept low because there is simply a huge amount of audio information and the bits had to be used there. I was listening in DTS, which has the best possible sound reproduction(and takes up a LOT of space) , so I cannot comment on the Dolby Digital or Stereo quality. Again, this is written after watching perhaps 20 minutes of the DVD. A more in depth report will follow as time allows. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 07 Jan 1999 20:26:45 From: micheljch at hotmail dot com (Michel Champagne) Subject: Have I offended someone, revision #1 Since it's a new year, I'll hand Toby, Mike, and Dan an Abita Purple Haze six-pack to share between themselves! [ Perhaps I should have mentioned this sooner, but Toby is off on holiday recuperating, so I'm sitting in for him right now. Which means that I'll have his one! -- Mike ] Well, me and my overactive brain . . . I mistakenly attributed the tag "Produced and directed by Robert Fripp and Peter Sinfield" to "In the Wake of Poseidon." "Lizard," and "Islands" (although I think I referred to "Lizard" as "Cirkus"...:-)) but, now home and pulling out the sleeves to have a look, I find that not only was I wrong, but that that nomenclature was part of the "Poseidon" credits only, and "Islands" is actually "Produced by King Crimson." While I haven't dug through everything in order to substantiate the rest of what I said, I think it was all correct (hey, I'm only human.) I don't want to wast too much bandwidth but feel I must be honest and correct myself if necessary. If I have to do so again, I'm ready and willing, hence the #1 in the subject. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 08 Jan 1999 00:24:50 From: artshop at artist-shop dot com (Gary Davis) Subject: Deja Vroooom zoned? Hi folks: One of my customers brought up a very interesting question regarding the Deja Vrooom DVD. He asked whether or not it was zoned. For those of you unfamiliar with zoning, it's analagous to the PAL vs. NTSC formats for VHS. Except with DVD I think there may be around 7 formats (zones) globally for DVD. A DVD manufactured in zone 1 cannot be played in zone 3, etc. However, not all DVD's are zoned. If it isnt' zoned, it can be played on any DVD machine. In the case of Deja Vrooom I spoke to the folks at Ryko, DGM's US distributor. According to them, Deja Vrooom is NOT zoned. He further explained that zoning is a practice usually reserved for major motion pictures because of the various release schedules throughout the world. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Jan 1999 09:31:33 From: ekausel at yahoo dot com (Edgar Kausel) Subject: Peter Giles Does anybody know where I can find more of Peter Giles astonishing bass playing, besides "In the Wake of Poseidon", "The Cheerful Insanity" and "McDonald & Giles" ? These three albums were enough to put Mr. Giles on the top of my favourite bass players list (together with John Wetton, of course). One wonders where did he get his inspiration in his "Pictures of a City" playing. After listening to that cut, you can understand why Fripp choose him instead of Greg Lake for the Poseidon album. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Jan 1999 15:05:11 From: stephenand at webtv dot net (Stephen Anderson) Subject: PROJEkCT 2 in Nashville Tn. ET, Recently discovered your site and find it most interesting. I don't know if this letter will qualify as 'meaningful' ,etc. (no, Mr.Fripp did not vomit on my person) so I'll accept your judgement. On Feb. 20,1998 a band I was playing with (Dinah Shore,Jr.) opened for PROJEkCT 2 in Nashville,Tn. at the Cannery(a huge warehouse type building converted into 2 or 3 performance rooms).After our set I was very anxious to depart, as it was extemely crowded, loud,etc. As I pushed my way through the throng I was cornered by a fan(?) who seemed set on attaching himself and delivering his own glowing review very loudly in my already aching ear (the monitors were distorting from sheer volume during show). Anyway, as I was reaching the point of despair a small figure emerged from somewhere (may have been the restroom door which I had been considering as a temporary refuge) made his way over to where we stood and extended a greeting and said he enjoyed my playing, or something to that effect. I was most relieved and although I didn't recognize him, was grateful for what felt like a genuine gesture and from his expression it seemed that he was aware of the opportunity for escape that he had provided. So, I thanked him and, muttering something about having to get the hell outta there, made my escape. Well, obviously the point of this (unintentionally long-winded) account is that it was Mr. Fripp who, apparently having seen my set, just wanted to say hello. Whether or not he was actually aware of my dilemma, I doubt I'll ever know. Several people standing nearby had recognized Mr.Fripp and told my bandmates who later told me. So, I simply wanted to say thank you, in return. I suppose I had the notion of writing ET about this due to reading several of the letters attributing nasty social habits to Mr.Fripp (which he should pay no attention to). Obviously such was not the case in my brief encounter. Thank you again Mr. Fripp. S.D.Anderson stephenand at webtv dot net **remembering on this day my close friend and mentor,Lenny Breau** ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Jan 1999 19:12:22 From: Papiav at aol dot com Subject: Box Sets I went to the 800.com site & they list that they have both "Frame by Frame" & "The Great Deceiver" box sets, at really good prices with free shipping. Vinny Papia ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #564 ********************************