Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #550 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 550 Wednesday, 21 October 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Survey #8 NEWS: the et faq is for everybody! GIG BIZ: Bill Bruford's Earthworks live in Barcelona GIG BIZ: BLUE in NYC on 12/3 & 12/4 GIZ BIZ: B.L.U.E. and Keneally dates in NYC Surroundscapes Dribble This: Meat Beat Manifesto "Actual sounds and Voices" Bill Bruford and Brand X Release date of Crimson DVD re: The bottom line! (a little bit deeper) fripp & bowie tabs For Sale trust, 21st century schizoid spam Bruford's updated views on '74 breakup in regards to bruford ET: DVD, Laserdiscs! i cant believe>>>>>>>. I do remember one thing... Fripp's 'tron's & Hyde Park re: Robert & ET RE: Self imposed limitations billy b detate etc Club Issue #1 King Crimson>past>present>who the hell cares about Prince Rupert? records What I did on my holidays re:Getting rid of vinyl Shut Up ? Two-sided Fripp: correlations between posts What`s going on at ET Frippless KC IMPORTANT: to all Artists who send tapes... 99 Question for the details connoisseur Crimhead Review of _Lizard_ Should ET Continue? DVD digital sound The Incline to '99... I WAS WRONG ABOUT E-T ET On Endangered Species List? First Post and Questions Already ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 02:46:04 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: Survey #8 ETers, Just a quick word to invite you to ET Web to answer our current survey asking a few topical questions about King Crimson. The survey will run for a month, but this time you can see the interim results at any time. Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:41:16 -0600 From: Steve Subject: NEWS: the et faq is for everybody! I'd like to take this opportunity as the et faqmaster to echo Dan K's recent words on the faqs usage, but also to say: the et faq is for everybody! Some of you 'veterans' may want to stop by and check things out. The faq is in a slow but steady re-org process. I am attempting to capsulize everything that is happening in the Crimso universe, including DGM. I will add a few amusing anecdotes as well as the occasional quip from Mr. Fripp. If you think of something appropriate for the faq don't hesitate to drop me a line. That's all for now! -Steven Sthole sws at rmi dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:58:56 +0000 From: thrak at mx0 dot redestb dot es Subject: GIG BIZ: Bill Bruford's Earthworks live in Barcelona Greetings from Barcelona, Bill Bruford's Earthworks will be playing in Barcelona on November 10th at 22:00 in Luz de Gas. I've read it in the news, and I've confirmed it by the web. It costs 3000 pesetas (about 15 pounds, 25 dollars approx), and in Spain you can get the ticket in the Servicaixa de la Caixa. That's all. I hope I'll find any Elephant Talker there :) Any questions, or if you want to meet us in the concert, e-mail me at: thrak at redestb dot es (Thrak...? Where did I hear it before?) -------------------------- Josep Ma Serlavos IRC Nick: Thrak E-mail: thrak at redestb dot es -------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:10:55 -0500 From: Bob Gottesman Subject: GIG BIZ: BLUE in NYC on 12/3 & 12/4 I just found out that Bruford Levin Upper Extremities will be at the Bottom Line in New York City on December 3&4. Tickets are $25. Thought you might like to know. (Bottom Line Info (Recording) 212-228-7880) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:01:50 -0400 (EDT) From: crv1 at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: GIZ BIZ: B.L.U.E. and Keneally dates in NYC Hi All B.L.U.E. will be playing at The Bottom Line(15 West 4th St. at Mercer St.) in December 3rd, 2 shows(7:30 and 10:30) price is $22.50 Mike Keneally and Beer For Dolphins are playing at Wetlands Preserve(161 Hudson St. below Canal St.) this Friday(10/23) at 8:00 PM. $10 in advance; $12 at the door. Keneally and BFD are also at the Bottom Line on Monday 10/26 opening for(and MK plays with) Ed Palermo & His Big Band doing Zappa covers. 2 shows, 7:30 and 10:30. $15.00. bye for now, CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. -- J.G. Bennett And it's potato, potato, potato. -- Mike Keneally ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:30:51 -0500 (CDT) From: vince Subject: Surroundscapes I was excited to read RF's comments on the surround soundscapes that are being mixed for the 1999 re-issue(see DGM website). Having just received a Dolby Digital/DTS receiver yesterday, I am intrigued with the musical possibilities of this format. I've heard an Eagles DTS disc and had to guestion the logic behind the 5.1 channel mix. It's a live concert disc but the disc was not mixed with recreating the concert experience in mind. Not that this is inherently bad, just unexpected. Not being an Eagles fan surely colored my experience. Soundscapes(Surroundscapes?), however, would seem to be perfectly suited towards the DD/DTS 5.1 treatment. Mixing becomes perhaps as important as creating the original soundscapes. Robert's "womb" comment seems an apt metaphor. Whether this technology goes the way of the quadrophonic remains to be seen. It's certainly wonderful for movie sound so I think it has a healthy future in everyone's "home theater" at the least. I'll have to play some soundscapes using the various "surround fields" offered by my receiver. I can't wait to get my hands on the new 1999 as well as the Live in Japan DVD. Any ordering info yet, DGM? vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:36:49 -0700 From: "Brian Arnold" Subject: Dribble This: Meat Beat Manifesto "Actual sounds and Voices" This is a CD review of relevance to ETers. Really. Regarding all the ETers' opinions foisted regarding Crim plans and non-plans, and Bill's love of acoustic drums and the consequences of this love: I snore in your general direction; get lives. Here is my review of the new Meat Beat Manifesto CD, for those really interested challenging their ears: Meat Beat Manifesto "Actual Sounds and Voices" 7/10 Nothing/Interscope Records Our acid industrial funk pal Jack Dangers has given acoustic drums a more prominent role on this new release of heavy duty electronic noise. Jack supplies voice, bass, and "stuff"--and endless mixture of prepared and unprepared noises, mostly from real "stuff" but electronically altered, echoed, and looped. He is joined by Lynn Farmer on occasionally frenetic acoustic drums and percussion, adding a large amount of "wooody" sound which hasn't always been present on prior Meat Beat releases. John Wilson adds "prepared guitars" giving this new release of audio warfare considerable depth. Guests on selected tracks include Brain (nice "wooody" drums), Dr. Pat Gleeson (Arp 2600, Echoplex), Beanie Maupin (sax, clarinet), Dan Nielsen (Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzer), Consolidated freak Mark Pistel (Serge), and Mike Powell (Theremin, Radio). The music posesses utter chaos, zones of desolation, vector abortions, fantastic bursts of energy, and occasionally unfocused noise. For anyone seeking a theoretical discussion of things that go Thrak, B'Bish, and Vrooom, there is a wonderful pre-recorded discourse in the track "The Tweek." If you're new to Meat Beat, my recommendation is their previous 2CD release, "Subliminal Sandwich", or their now-ancient debut "Storm the Studio." This new CD adds some new twists to the Meat Beat sound and is considerably refined, but is largely traversing sonic territory that they've already covered before. Perhaps carried live, this music will take on a more significant quality, as it did during Meat Beat's 99% tour. Non-vegetarians (like me), beware, though, you'll get a lot of literature at the door. My pathetic, uninformed, wishful thinking is for one of the ProjeKcts to approach this style of music and Crimsonize it. My feeling is that this style was available to Sylvian/Fripp in Darshan but was left largely unexplored, and was available to P2's groove stylings--I can't wait to hear Live Groove--but I doubt P2 accepted the postage for delivery of this style. Perhaps P4's Acid Jazz vdrummer Patty M will step up to the plate? It would "Beat" the hell out a Red Part II, or Larks' Tongues Part 37-1/2. Regardless, I am enjoying the new Meat Beat CD, warts and all. 7/10. - Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:27:30 -0400 From: Peter Geddes Subject: Bill Bruford and Brand X I heard recently that Pangea/Outer Music is going to put out a 2 CD Brand X compilation entitled "X-Files" including previously released material and unreleased material with Bill Bruford and Pierre Moerlen, among others. Anyone care to confirm/deny/comment? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:24:58 EDT From: Enoboy at aol dot com Subject: Release date of Crimson DVD I was very excited to read of the upcoming release of the Crimson DVD. I work in the Consumer Audio business and am pleased that Fripp and company have embraced the new formats of both DVD and DTS. However, I have spoken to an inside source involved with the DVD authoring process who has told me that there is no way that the disc will be released before the end of the year. So the November 3 date is erroneous. It should also be noted that the disc will be among the very first encoded in DTS. For those who have not experienced the difference between Dolby Digital and DTS, you are in for a treat. The improved fidelity is immediately apparent. The only downside is that the vast majority of consumers do not currently have processors or decoders for DTS, much less the newest DVD players that will play back the format. So most of us will not be able to enjoy the fullest fidelity on the Crimson DVD until we upgrade our equipment. I mean, how many of you have DVD players, much less a DTS decoder? But the disc will have a conventional Dolby soundtrack that I'm sure will be excellent. Let's keep our fingers crossed that this disc comes out sooner than later. I will keep the group posted if I get any more news. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:15:47 +0100 (BST) From: Toby van de Peer Subject: re: The bottom line! (a little bit deeper) > > Any entity calling itself "King Crimson" that does >not have as one of it's members Robert Fripp, is a vile >sham, a disgrace, and a non-band. > >Blaine D. Arnold What about if there was no Robert Fripp in the band, but instead had Paul McCartney, John Lennon, George Harrison and Ringo Starr as its members? If it was billed as 'King Crimson,' it still might be worth buying the CD and T-shirt.... I wouldn't stand near John's side of the stage though, it might be a bit wiffy :-o ;-) I'm not too fussed who's in the band so long as it "blows my socks off." And, yes, surprise is an important factor in the act I just mentioned. Most of the posts to ET seem to have a similar opinion (although not using my vulgar wording) and have been too thoughtfully reasoned for me to reiterate here. My contribution is to say that all of this discussion has been far from destructive. I can't remember being this full of anticipation for something to come out from a band for ages (relative to other bands, you know, I do have a life...) Its quite exciting, and it gives me so much hope to learn that someone, somewhere is actually bothering to do something different, something real, rather than go for the easy nostalgia option like some bands. (mind you, Ernie, you were so cruel about Steve Howe in the last newsletter that I've got a ruddy good mind to challenge you to a duel to the death with Jon Anderson Karaoke! Maybe a bit too sadistic? I promise not to use 'Olias Of Sunhillow.') Anyway, I mustn't go on too long, so "Hey! lighten up guys!", If you want to hear some particular music then form a band and learn how to play it! And Mister Fripp, I hope you get where you're going, and it's cool to hear about the journey! (I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound quite so sycophantic, I do half expect to hate the new stuff but don't let that stop you) Toby van de Peer Raining Hard On A Friday Afternoon, Kent ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:14:24 +0100 From: patrick Midot Subject: fripp & bowie tabs how come no-one ever transcribed robert's parts on bowie's albums? if anyone got them, i am interested. great, great site! patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:05:46 EDT From: Papiav at aol dot com Subject: For Sale I have the following for sale: King Crimson "Young Persons Guide to .." 2 LPs w/booklet. EG Collectors ED. Half speed mastered Mint cond. treated w/Last. $30.00 King Crimsom "Sleepless" EP LP. Mint cond. Treated w/Last. $10.00. Tony Levins Road Photos book. Mint cond. $25.00. The LPs were played only a few times on an AR-ES1 turntable. Vinny Papia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:29:41 +0100 From: "Ashley" Subject: trust, 21st century schizoid spam g'day all, i trust fripp and the other KC members implicitly. whatever they do will be fine, be it reform as the violent femmes or break new ground with whatever technology they see fit. without fripp, without bruford. whatever. they have a reason for doing whatever they do. i've considered looking at the dgm guestbook but after someone's comments in the latest ET, i don't think i can be bothered subjecting my brain to the same ant-fornication as seems to be prevailant here recently. as a side note i'm wondering whether anyone else on this list is being spammed by Ecsp97 at aol dot com i pretty sure my email address was picked up from this list. i urge people to lodge complaints about this scumbag spammer to CosUK at aol dot com forwarding whatever message he's sent you. that's all. toodle pip, ashley **the new, improved ashley's tape trading post - complete with guest book is now overhauled at http://freespace.virgin.net/kate.d ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:50:52 -0400 (EDT) From: James Hannigan Subject: Bruford's updated views on '74 breakup It is common to mention the fact that Bruford was not pleased when Fripp broke up the band in 1974, but in Paul Stump's book "The Music's All that Matters: A History of Progressive Rock," published last year, Bruford told the writer the following: 'I remember in 1974 when Robert told me he was splitting up King Crimson. "I don't want to be like all these dinosaur bands," he told me. I remember thinking, "Well, this is a drag because we're just about to really make it big, but I guess he's right. And he was."' Stump said Fripp was going to talk to him about the "music industry in the UK in the '70s" but not the music. Apparently Stump had to cancel the interview. Too bad Night Watch had yet to be issued, he could have referred to Fripp's notes. - Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:56:13 PDT From: "Philip Beckwith" Subject: in regards to bruford Hello ETers, The Bruford "controversy" has become so annoying that when I hear the name Bill Bruford i am starting to get that same nasty feeling that I get when i hear the name Monica Lewinsky. I can't wait until this subject dies down to a manageable level so I can once again enjoy Elephant Talk. Thanks, Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:41:57 -0600 From: "Luna Negra S.C." Subject: ET: DVD, Laserdiscs! Hi, dear Crimsiod friends: > From: David MacLennan > Subject: The KC DVD > > Seen in ET458: > > > "Discipline Global Mobile And Kao Infosystems Produce World's First > > User-Tailored Musical Experience On DVD For King Crimson > > Great, so now I have to go out and buy a DVD player! No > way, Jose -- I'm going to wait a few years until the price > comes down to Earth. When I first knew about Laserdiscs Players, I 'HAD' to but one then. Now I wonder if this will be available on Laserdisc. > > I assume none of the audio stuff on this wil play on a > standard CD player? NO, but you can play an audio CD on your DVD player! By the way, I've just checked out a multi CD player that plays audio CD, Laserdiscs and DVD. To our mexican friends, it's available through Sanborns! ?Coma la ven? Juan Jose Salas R. LUNA NEGRA, S.C. lunanegr at sjr dot podernet dot com dot mx Support The Bassoonist Club! (For Lindsay) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:16:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith Adams Subject: i cant believe>>>>>>>. dear et readers and about half of the people who have sent entries to the past couple newsletters: you guys are really beginning to make me angry. i can't believe that you guys call yourself crimson fans when all you do is complain about everything that might happen to crimson in the future concerning bruford , the frippless projekt and so forth. all i have to say is trust the guy! if you guys like his music so much just shut up. fripp is a genious and a musician not the sort of "pop"star you guys are making him out to be. for a musician to progressand become better he is to work w/ different people i would actully be happy to see every in crimson leave and have fripp start all over again. listen, if fripp and brufords time is up it is. theyve been playing together on and off since 1973 give the guys a break! mr.fripp agreed to this newsletter to recieve intelligent advice from his fans not to hear how their world will end if bruford leaves, get a life! so give him some intelligent insight. keith elliot adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:03:43 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: I do remember one thing... I was listening to Absent Lovers the other day and realized that Adrian Belew seems to have already described the process of Crimson in any formation, past or future. Makes debates about who's in or out of the lineup sort of irrelevant I think. "No matter how closely I study it No matter how I take it apart No matter how I break it down It remains consitent. It remains consistent." enough said I believe. Kevin Death by drowning in your analysis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:25:16 -0700 From: Robert Cervero Subject: Fripp's 'tron's & Hyde Park In ET #549, Craig Stamm wrote: >I remember reading that Robert has put the KC mellotrons up >for sale, but at several thousand dollars apiece they are >certainly out of my price range I wish! The "In Court..." MKII mellotron (with serial # 115, supposedly the oldest MKII in circulation) has already fetched an offer of #10,000 and word has it will probably go higher. Evidently there are some high-rollers in the ranks of Crimson fans (....might there be a few closet Wall Street 'enthusiasts' out there?). Do not despair, there are still four other 'trons in the Fripp household where bids have yet to exceed five digits. Craig adds..... >(I hope Robert Cervero is not out robbing banks now). ....not yet. In ET #548, Enrique notes: >While reading the booklet on theGreg Lake Retrospective, I >discovered that he owns a video from the concert in Hyde >Park in 1969 the day King Crimson opened for the Stones and >that he thinks it was a great performance, so... for all >Crimson and Lake fans it could be fantastic to see that >video, why don't Fripp and Lake comercialise it ? Word has it that this elusive video is about 10 minutes in length, but has no audio! Hell, I'd settle for a dub, or for that matter, pure silence (....or we can all play DGM's newly released Marquee Club show in the background)..... A pleasant thought: footage of '69 Hyde Park -- what a great DGM release that would be (along with the 30 minute clip of '74 Crimson in Fripp's vault) to commemorate Crimson's 30th this coming January! Rob "the analoguist" Cervero ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:25:03 -0700 From: guy Subject: re: Robert & ET Eric Kirchner wrote: >I've defended E-T in the past. But if circumstances (be they >silly in my opinion or not) are causing the newsletter to >damage the process of putting together music we all >venerate, should the newsletter continue? If matters ever progress to the point that Robert (or any other members of KC) can no longer think creatively do to the presence of ET, I assume that they will just stop reading it. Guy ---- gberger at ucsd dot edu Taoism: go hardcore! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:51:21 -0700 From: "Walter Harley" Subject: RE: Self imposed limitations Alan dot Maguire at CERT dot IE wrote: > Yes, imposing arbitrary limitations (like: Dont play > cymbals on this album) can seem to constrain the > player, but conversely I think a good musician can find > the freedom within limition to explore 1 aspect of an > instrument more fully. Persons interested in this issue might study Chuck Close's approach to visual art. (I think there's a Close exhibit at the Chicago Art Museum at present, unless it's over.) He has, over several decades, chosen to limit himself in this way in order to progress as an artist. His statement on this is that he realized he had enough natural drawing talent that he would be successful but artistically stagnant unless he took active steps to force new discoveries. Structures and rules within poetry and classical music also come to mind. (And Fripp might not object to Bruford asking him not to use his low E string - after all, in the tuning he uses there isn't one.) --Walter Harley - http://www.cafewalter.com/~walterh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:04:36 +0100 From: "John Stevens" Subject: billy b detate etc C'mon, Toby, let's fuck this stupid Billy B debate.There's more to life than this! KC isKC and will continue to be so. LET'S MOVE ON. The evolution of NEW concepts is surely of more interest than living in the past: What will be, will be. So, folks, let us now allow KC to move forward, with our blessings, to become what it will become. John Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 02:02:07 +0100 From: Robert J Lethbridge Subject: Club Issue #1 Just received my DGM club issue #1 today - superb. Sonically sub standard -but we expected that, never the less I eagerly played it this morning whilst in bed and my ears were opened! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:59:43 -0400 (EDT) From: DocIrving at webtv dot net (doug mckee) Subject: King Crimson>past>present>who the hell cares about Prince Rupert? Greetings! I have been observing the E-T debates regarding the status of King Crimson and who will be in the band. I find the uproar about Bill Bruford to be quite effusive and IMO rather un-necessary. The vast majority of serious Crimson fans are old enough (and should be wise enough) to understand that we are talking about professional musicians...not playthings catering to our individual whims. Bruford may well be the greatest drummer alive IMO, but he should not be locked in by something as tawdry as fan pressure. Talented musicians need to spread their wings and explore. Given the history of Crimson, it is a reasonable bet that Bruford would return at some future time anyway! We should allow Robert Fripp to guide Crimson as he sees fit. Do I like ALL of the newer exploratory material??? No, but that view becomes meaningless when the Fripp quest for experimentation and new direction is TRULY taken into account...witness some comments about Soundscapes...I love them and find them unusual and intensely atmospheric in nature. Have they basked in the fleeting glow of public/commercial acclaim? I think not! Further proof that the arbitrary opinion of the average fan often leaves much to be desired. Example...my personal favorite Crimson was the "RED" lineup. Great stuff! Viable today? Probably not. Have I allowed my tastes to grow and change to accomodate the various KC offerings since "RED" ? Yes!!! We all should. King Crimson is a musical entity under constant metamorphisis in every sense. Please allow Robert Fripp (a genius in my estimation) to guide it as he sees fit. In closing, who the hell cares about Prince Rupert, hidden interpretations and 27 year old album covers? Please...to these folks all wrapped up in this...its only an album cover...get over it!! Doug ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:38:58 EDT From: ChiKidsFly at aol dot com Subject: records twenty years ago I lost my copies of cheerful insanity and mcdonnald and giles. even though the sun is shining its raining in my heart and I would very much like to get a copy of each again. do you or any one on line have any idea where i might purchase these records? thanks steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:43:37 +0100 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: What I did on my holidays For reasons that I'll not reveal (so as to maintain some sense of suspense), ET readers may find amusement in my holiday snaps at http://www.anchorag.demon.co.uk/newpics.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:59:06 +0100 From: Tim Pickard Subject: re:Getting rid of vinyl First let me thank you all for the incredible response. Apologies to all those I haven't had time to repond to yet. I will endevour to reply to everyone eventually! I should also apologise for a) rushing into this without due preparation b)failing to mention that I live in London UK, c) not asking people to tell me where they live (I have had replies from. Germany, Italy, Portugal, USA, Japan, Holland etc. and quite a few from I don't know where). This is the first time I've ever tried this and next time(?) I'll invite offers! All the best Tim Pickard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 98 20:26:08 +0100 ( + ) From: Tony Douglas Subject: Shut Up ? Dear all, I must admit to being slightly disadvantaged when writing this (as Internet Exploder 3 does just that when I try to read Fripp's Dear Diary on the DGM site), but I must admit to being somewhat bemused by some of the recent postings on ET, to the effect that we should communally, in effect, "shut up and let them get on with it." Poppycock. (The politest single word I could think of in response.) Did The Beatles sit and have conference about whether the fans would "get" Sergeant Pepper, or the White Album ? Did U2 have a conflab over the fanbase's likely reaction to Achtung Baby ? So why on God's good earth should Fripp and/or KC worry over the fans opinion of their next step ? If it's crap, I claim the inalienable right to say so. And if it's great, then I'll say that too. I thought Space Groove was a bit of pointless noodle for much of it's length, and they would have been far better off recording and releasing some sessions after they'd played together for a bit longer, but there you go. But my, yours, or anybody else on this list's opinion is unimportant - if Fripp & KC want to do something, and feel they should do something, then they should do it. And to hang with the fanbase. If they don't get it now, it's more than likeley they will in 5 or 10 years time. And if Fripp and co. really *are* that worried about *anybody* else's opinion of what they're doing, they should communally be given a damn good kick up the arse and told to get a grip and get on with it. As for ET ? ET exists for the benefit of ETers. If Fripp and KC care to read it, that's all fine and dandy. That's not to say they should pay much attention to it. It's all part of a worrying trend. Fripp criticises ET for the quality of some of the posts - cue ETers whinging about dopey posts and (as theatrically as you can manage in an e-mail) flouncing off. Fripp apparently complains that the opinions on ET are favouring the old stuff instead of the new. Cue complaints on ET that perhaps the list should quieten up to leave them in peace. Perhaps the next ET survey should be a "sheep to thinkers ratio" ? And anyway, Fripp should be used to this sort of comment by now. According to the booklet in the Young Person's Guide, someone left a note in lipstick on the side of the van to the effect of "Play the old songs - the new stuff is crap" in about 1970 / 71. (I leave it to someone else to verify the correct date - I haven't got the booklet to hand). Have fun everyone ! - Tony ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:52:58 -0700 From: Robert Mayer Subject: Two-sided Fripp: correlations between posts Dear ETers, Several of us have been involved in creative endeavors before. Many of us know that it's time-consuming and requires a great deal of concentration. In other words, there have been a couple of posts that indicate that Robert should stop reading ET, and I can see why. It's like a woodcarver or painter or sculptor in his or her studio working on a project only to have friends drop by and not only ask about it (which would be distracting enough), but also suggest how to do it. The number of distractions increase to the point that creative momentum (let's face it, an artist needs that) is successfully killed, and an artist begins to wonder if he or she has the so-called "gift" any more. Let's face it, creative work is a fickle and difficult occupation. Those who are truly interested in artistic effort and not commerical reproduction, as would be obvious to many, is a stressful venue. (And we haven't breached the idea of what happens when you find yourself the subject of pity/psychoanalysis in a major arena of communication without anyone talking to you. It's like listening to everyone gossip about you...) Having said that, it would seem simple for Fripp to just ignore ET and his fans and get back to work. However, there are two other problems we've discussed. First, Fripp feels a strong correlation between the development of music and an audience (i.e. Soundscapes), but even more important, as many of us have read from a couple of DGM liners, Fripp has the specter of the EG fiasco on the back of his mind. He realizes what has happed in allowing non-creative persons to control the financial aspects, and is trying to handle that himself. In essence, Fripp is trying to reconcile the Creative Fripp with the Business Fripp, and that perhaps is why we're seeing him struggle. But I wander.... IN the end, I can only hope that Fripp, KC, DGM et al continues to strive toward the creative integrity they have always shown, but somehow find a way to solve the business-end question without coming to a crash. In this world of stale reproductions, it's a relief to find artists attempting something new. Thank you, Fripp, Belew, Levin, DGM, et al. R.A. Mayer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:41:50 PDT From: "Morten Tornes" Subject: What`s going on at ET Hey. I am new to the ET and after reciving three digests I must say: What is going on here is quite silly. All thre`s talk about is: Is Bruford leaving?, is there going to be a KC without Robert?, what will they do?, ahhh what will they do? My opinion is what ever happens to KC is up to the people involved in KC, NOT the fans. I`m happy with what ever they do. I`m sure Robert is capable of making good desicions, he`s been make them for over 30 years now. Allthough I must admitt I don`t fancy the thought of a KC without Robert. You can`t really call that King Crimson now can you? There`s not much left off what you started out with there then. That would be like the Genesis you`ve got now, which is real silly. I mean Peter Gabriell left and Phil Collins started singing was big change, but ok. ( he really should have sticked to drumming, he`s the king of whirl) But what happens when you take away Phil and put in some young "Stilt Skin" guy. You`re left with something sounding like (pardon my french) shit. I mean, you`re mixing generations. The old people trying to sound hipp and the young person trying to live up to this big thing. I`m sorry if I gott a tad off subject here. Got carried away. My point is: if you take away Robert you don`t have KC, you have something else. Call it whatever you like, just not KC. Matt Barber had an interesting idea. To put Bill Bruford, Arian Belew and Tony Levin in a group. There you have you no Fripp band, but you don`t have to call it KC. This was my first posting to ET. Hope somebody cared to read it, and even like something off what I had to say. P.S: does anybody know if KC has had concerts in Norway? (where I live) If so, when and where was that? And dear Robert Fripp, could you care to consider coming to Norway? Just playing anything, soundscapes, guitar craft, projeCKt or Kc (mostly KC :)) I`m of the new generation and I can`t go all the way to the US. So please, if you`re reading this. Consider coming to Norway. We have this great Jazz festival in my home town Molde each summer. Maybe you could come there. Bye for now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:19:00 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Frippless KC Responding to David MacLennan's synopsis in ET #549: >Moving further down ET548, two adjacent posts caught my eye: > >> From: "Eric Anderson" >> >> Fripp clearly illustrates how the restricting bind of >> audience expectation is suffocating the way in which King >> Crimson is. > >and... > >> From: jessica > >> Having just read Robert Fripp's stunning new journal >> entry, I reply publicly that: >> >> I WILL NEVER PURCHASE A "KING CRIMSON" ALBUM, ATTEND >> A "KING CRIMSON" LIVE PERFORMANCE OR SUPPORT IN ANY WAY >> ANYTHING CALLED "KING CRIMSON" IF ROBERT FRIPP IS NOT >> INVOLVED!!!!!!!!!!! I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned yet, but what about the possibility of Fripp writing for KC (in whatever form it may take) as behind-the-scenes songwriter, in the way that the Beach Boys did with Brian Wilson? That way, Fripp is released of the emotional/historical baggage of dealing with incessant burble, banter, and brou-ha-ha from audients with limited interest in R&D, and those audients who *do* want to hear the latest results of Fripp's R&D will get to do so. I say this mindful of the fact that ET lately has been turning into a "forum to tell Bobby, Billy, and company what to do" and that by making this suggestion I am only contributing to the problem. If you are reading this, Robert (and again I am guilty of sharing every ET'er's supposition that my measly post is being personally read by Mr. Fripp), it is only offered as a friendly brainstorm, not a demand or even a wish on my part. My only wish for KC is that you be allowed to pursue your aim, and that we as audients may somehow share in the aural result. Now back to your regular arguments, agreements, advice... some of which has lately been peppered with far too much upper-case cybershouting and multiple exclamation points. As RF has been known to say, "lighten up". Kevin Holm-Hudson kholmhud at nwu dot edu Kevin Holm-Hudson Senior Lecturer, Department of Academic Studies and Composition Master, Jones Fine and Performing Arts Residential College Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:47:34 +0000 From: "Marc Carlton" <9703527c at student dot gla dot ac dot uk> Subject: IMPORTANT: to all Artists who send tapes... Hello, To all in the Crimson Kingdom and the related realm who have unsuccessfully (success being irrelevant, it seems) sent work to DGM; let us all make contact. If we can set up correspondences with each other, and if there are enough of us, perhaps we may create something ourselves. If there is any reaction to this at all, feel free to contact me. Marc Carlton. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:13:37 PDT From: "Dick Ross" Subject: 99 ET, King Crimson ... Drink deep, enjoy. King Crimson 99 ... Bring a clean and empty cup. Dick Ross ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:37:09 +0200 From: "Christian Skina" Subject: Question for the details connoisseur Crimhead Collector's Club vol. 2 is said to be the Jacksonville show, spring 1972. Since in that spring I was 11* and not being good in details (still have not memorized titles of albums, not to mention songs-), I'd ask the Crimhead connoisseur to tell me if this concert was part of the Islands tour. I hear there's been something like that. Thank you. * For the fun of it: part of my youth I have spent in a country considering foreign cultures as dangerous. Music, which travels faster than anything else, was particularly prohibited. Since part of my family was living abroad and had some friends involved in the music business, I could get my hands on some rotten western culture. I remember 1974 as being a year full of musical encounters. One tape I managed to record (from another tape) was by a certain guy King Crimson. I thought he was the guitar player in a group bearing his name(sic). There was a song there that knocked me down, in particular the way the guitar solo was developing within the whole (and I wasn't born yesterday, Zappa and McLaughlin were already my idols). In spring 75 I have joined a school band and perversely talked its members into these obscure tapes. [Obscure to the folks of my age, not so obscure to some older friends of mine, who were bringing these tapes in]. They through me out of the band from two obvious reasons: I had no hand coordination, thus was unable to play any instrument and my two-notes-guitar-solo was never ending. As you might have guessed, we were thinking we were playing Starless and I was so delighted with Mr. Fripp's solo, I just couldn't stop playing some two notes, while the band was growing higher and higher, more tense with each minute passing. In 75 I went abroad and found out that Crimson was not his family name- Then I was smashed by Islands. The news of hearing this live is overwhelming me. PS. I think is much better to perform music than just to listen to so, if you have any possibility, do so. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:03:29 PDT From: "~ Hogard" Subject: Review of _Lizard_ Hey ET-ers, The Daily Vault review site (http://www.dailyvault.com/) has tackled _Lizard_ today (for those of you still concerned with "historic" Krim). Hogard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:53:52 -0700 From: "William Heinrichs" Subject: Should ET Continue? >Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:23:35 -0700 >From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL >Subject: E-T >I've defended E-T in the past. But if circumstances (be they >silly in my opinion or not) are causing the newsletter to >damage the process of putting together music we all >venerate, should the newsletter continue? >Eric Should ET continue? My vote is a definite YES! ET is not to be blamed for damaging the rocess for putting together music. ET is simply a medium to ommunicate. What we as members choose to communicate (and the tone in hich we do so) has a greater bearing on others than the medium we use. A more appropriate question would be: Does my post add value to, or does t diminish the ET community? Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0500 From: "Dr. Michael Kovacs" Subject: DVD digital sound Just to clarify. The various posts indicate that the proposed DVD will have "DTS". Will it have, however, the more prevalent Dolby Digital ( also known as AC3) ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:14:37 EDT From: Boobird at aol dot com Subject: The Incline to '99... Dear Folks, Just in the writing mood, especially after reading Robert's latest diary entry. I knew all would be right with the world, despite his initial misgivings about P4 (which should still produce some amazing, and "possibly Crimson," music). I envy all you folks out west; should be an audiovisual treat! Already looking forward to October, 1999. Here's hoping that the initial Midwest leanings hold (fellow Twin Citians, cross your fingers). I hope it's not moved to November, because any Chicago trip would be pre-empted by "the old Y2K problem" (my company has already stated NO VACATIONS 11/99-02/00... :-( ). By the way, is DGM "Y2K ready"? ;-) The King is different; long live the King! Mark np: Native of the Rain (Tony Geballe) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:21:01 -0700 From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: I WAS WRONG ABOUT E-T I retract my statements regarding whether E-T should continue. After some thought and discussion with another subscriber, I realized that E-T's value is measured by the subscribers and not one outside force. Many have written in over the last month to say how it has contributed to their enjoyment of the music and has introduced them to stuff they would never have heard of before, and if for no other reason, that makes E-T worth keeping. If E-T is somehow making Fripp feel stifled, that's his cross to bear - no one is holding a gun to his head to make him read it. Maybe some of us get carried away with speculation or nostalgia about King Crimson, but I hope in his heart of hearts, Fripp can look upon E-T not as an albatross but as a generally well-meaning group of enthusiasts enamored with his music and methods of bringing it to the world. It has been explained to me that Fripp's sometimes less than diplomatic retorts regarding E-T can to some degree be explained by his incredible personal intensity - perhaps those demolished in his missive of 10/16 can take that into account before committing a rash act like taking their DGM CDs to the used CD shop. Sorry for the flip-flop, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:29:24 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: ET On Endangered Species List? On first hearing Damage: This is a magnificent set. One thing that particularly strikes me, given a band where you have four distinctive guitarists, is the sense of space here, of the interaction of music and space. There is no a sense of Michael Brook, David Sylvian, Robert Fripp, or Trey Gunn stepping over each other; rather there's a sense of integration, with the focus on the expansion of music rather than the soloist. ET I: I still feel that this is a great site and thank Toby for the work he has done continuing this site. I understand that Robert finds ET limiting and counterproductive in the creation of new music; that, with our love for previous manifestations of King Crimson, we are weighing down paths that Robert wishes to pursue, paths of creation freed from audience expectations. I agree with previous posts regarding Robert dropping ET from today's reading list. Between working with DGM, with the organization of releases by the Collector's Club, and rehearsing for Projekct IV, I wonder that Robert finds time to sleep, let alone accessing music sites. ET II: Of especial interest of late has been Robert Fripp's Soundscapes in particular, and tape-looping in general. Using the ET Archives, I've been able to access information regarding the history and technology involved in this means of music expression. Using search engines had not been as productive. Why need there be a new King Crimson at all? This year has given us Upper Extremities, Space Groove, Belewprints, and The Gates of Paradise, recordings I continue to return to. At no point did I think, "well, this is all very good and fine, but where in heaven above is the new King Crimson Lark's Tongues in Asphalt Part Four?" Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:08:17 +0000 From: Francois Corve Subject: First Post and Questions Already Hello to every one of you. First of all, forgive my english : any mistake is simply due to my poor usage of any language that is not french. Nobody's perfect. I read ET newletter quite often and I decided to post some queries for my first try at it. 1/ Are the abrupt cuts at the end of Absent lovers (when the audience applause) on all copies ? Or is my CD player encountering problems? 2/ On "live at the marquee", is Schizoid Man supposed to be complete or is it still my CD player that is unable to read the beginning of it? Same question, different record... Hope someone can give me answers on this. By the way, Club release No1 is a great surprise : packaging is good, music is good, liner notes are as interesting as usual and sonics are ... who cares? More on this later. NOTE : I'm not using my computer right now. Mine is down for a few hours. My e-mail address for any reply is : sberland at infoflash dot fr Thanks a lot by advance. I already spent great time reading ET Newsletter. I'll continue. Some subjects are really entertaining or thought provoking, information is often valuable. Keep up the good work (this one for Toby) and good postings (for everyone else). Regards, Stephane Berland Email: sberland at infoflash dot fr ----------------------------- ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #550 ********************************