Elephant Talk #550 (as text)

20 October 1998



Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 02:46:04 EDT
From: DanKirkd at aol dot com
Subject: NEWS: Survey #8
ETers,

Just a quick word to invite you to ET Web to answer our
current survey asking a few topical questions about King
Crimson.  The survey will run for a month, but this time you
can see the interim results at any time.

Cheers,

Dan
ET Web

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:41:16 -0600
From: Steve <sws at rmi dot net>
Subject: NEWS: the et faq is for everybody!
I'd like to take this opportunity as the et faqmaster to
echo Dan K's recent words on the faqs usage, but also to
say: the et faq is for everybody! Some of you 'veterans' may
want to stop by and check things out. The faq is in a slow
but steady re-org process. I am attempting to capsulize
everything that is happening in the Crimso universe,
including DGM. I will add a few amusing anecdotes as well as
the occasional quip from Mr. Fripp. If you think of
something appropriate for the faq don't hesitate to drop me
a line.

That's all for now!
-Steven Sthole
sws at rmi dot net

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:58:56 +0000
From: thrak at mx0 dot redestb dot es
Subject: GIG BIZ: Bill Bruford's Earthworks live in Barcelona
Greetings from Barcelona,

Bill Bruford's Earthworks will be playing in Barcelona on
November 10th at 22:00 in Luz de Gas. I've read it in the news, and
I've confirmed it by the web. It costs 3000 pesetas (about 15 pounds,
25 dollars approx), and in Spain you can get the ticket in the
Servicaixa de la Caixa.
That's all. I hope I'll find any Elephant Talker there :)
Any questions, or if you want to meet us in the concert, e-mail me
at:
thrak at redestb dot es
(Thrak...? Where did I hear it before?)

--------------------------
Josep Ma Serlavos
IRC Nick: Thrak
E-mail: thrak at redestb dot es
--------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:10:55 -0500
From: Bob Gottesman  <bobg at basit dot com>
Subject: GIG BIZ: BLUE in NYC on 12/3 & 12/4
I just found out that Bruford Levin Upper Extremities will be at the Bottom
Line in New York City on December 3&4. Tickets are $25. Thought
you might like to know. (Bottom Line Info (Recording) 212-228-7880)

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:01:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: crv1 at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen)
Subject: GIZ BIZ: B.L.U.E. and Keneally dates in NYC
Hi All

B.L.U.E. will be playing at The Bottom Line(15 West 4th
St. at Mercer St.)  in December 3rd, 2 shows(7:30 and 10:30)
price is $22.50 Mike Keneally and Beer For Dolphins are
playing at Wetlands Preserve(161 Hudson St. below Canal St.)
this Friday(10/23) at 8:00 PM. $10 in advance; $12 at the
door.  Keneally and BFD are also at the Bottom Line on
Monday 10/26 opening for(and MK plays with) Ed Palermo & His
Big Band doing Zappa covers. 2 shows, 7:30 and
10:30. $15.00.

bye for now,

CV

If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people
this is no obstacle to work. -- J.G. Bennett

And it's potato, potato, potato. -- Mike Keneally

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:30:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: vince <vince at io dot com>
Subject: Surroundscapes
I was excited to read RF's comments on the surround
soundscapes that are being mixed for the 1999 re-issue(see
DGM website).  Having just received a Dolby Digital/DTS
receiver yesterday, I am intrigued with the musical
possibilities of this format.

I've heard an Eagles DTS disc and had to guestion the logic
behind the 5.1 channel mix. It's a live concert disc but the
disc was not mixed with recreating the concert experience in
mind. Not that this is inherently bad, just unexpected. Not
being an Eagles fan surely colored my experience.

Soundscapes(Surroundscapes?), however, would seem to be
perfectly suited towards the DD/DTS 5.1 treatment. Mixing
becomes perhaps as important as creating the original
soundscapes. Robert's "womb" comment seems an apt
metaphor. Whether this technology goes the way of the
quadrophonic remains to be seen. It's certainly wonderful
for movie sound so I think it has a healthy future in
everyone's "home theater" at the least. I'll have to play
some soundscapes using the various "surround fields" offered
by my receiver.

I can't wait to get my hands on the new 1999 as well as the
Live in Japan DVD. Any ordering info yet, DGM?

vince

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:36:49 -0700
From: "Brian Arnold" <arnold at batnet dot com>
Subject: Dribble This: Meat Beat Manifesto "Actual sounds and Voices"
This is a CD review of relevance to ETers. Really.

Regarding all the ETers' opinions foisted regarding Crim
plans and non-plans, and Bill's love of acoustic drums and
the consequences of this love: I snore in your general
direction; get lives.  Here is my review of the new Meat
Beat Manifesto CD, for those really interested challenging
their ears:

Meat Beat Manifesto "Actual Sounds and Voices" 7/10
Nothing/Interscope Records

Our acid industrial funk pal Jack Dangers has given acoustic
drums a more prominent role on this new release of heavy
duty electronic noise.  Jack supplies voice, bass, and
"stuff"--and endless mixture of prepared and unprepared
noises, mostly from real "stuff" but electronically altered,
echoed, and looped.  He is joined by Lynn Farmer on
occasionally frenetic acoustic drums and percussion, adding
a large amount of "wooody" sound which hasn't always been
present on prior Meat Beat releases.  John Wilson adds
"prepared guitars" giving this new release of audio warfare
considerable depth.  Guests on selected tracks include Brain
(nice "wooody" drums), Dr.  Pat Gleeson (Arp 2600,
Echoplex), Beanie Maupin (sax, clarinet), Dan Nielsen
(Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzer), Consolidated freak Mark Pistel
(Serge), and Mike Powell (Theremin, Radio).

The music posesses utter chaos, zones of desolation, vector
abortions, fantastic bursts of energy, and occasionally
unfocused noise.  For anyone seeking a theoretical
discussion of things that go Thrak, B'Bish, and Vrooom,
there is a wonderful pre-recorded discourse in the track
"The Tweek." If you're new to Meat Beat, my recommendation
is their previous 2CD release, "Subliminal Sandwich", or
their now-ancient debut "Storm the Studio."  This new CD
adds some new twists to the Meat Beat sound and is
considerably refined, but is largely traversing sonic
territory that they've already covered before. Perhaps
carried live, this music will take on a more significant
quality, as it did during Meat Beat's 99% tour.
Non-vegetarians (like me), beware, though, you'll get a lot
of literature at the door.

My pathetic, uninformed, wishful thinking is for one of the
ProjeKcts to approach this style of music and Crimsonize it.
My feeling is that this style was available to Sylvian/Fripp
in Darshan but was left largely unexplored, and was
available to P2's groove stylings--I can't wait to hear Live
Groove--but I doubt P2 accepted the postage for delivery of
this style.  Perhaps P4's Acid Jazz vdrummer Patty M will
step up to the plate?  It would "Beat" the hell out a Red
Part II, or Larks' Tongues Part 37-1/2.  Regardless, I am
enjoying the new Meat Beat CD, warts and all. 7/10.

- Brian

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:27:30 -0400
From: Peter Geddes <peter dot k dot geddes at mci dot com>
Subject: Bill Bruford and Brand X
I heard recently that Pangea/Outer Music is going to put out
a 2 CD Brand X compilation entitled "X-Files" including
previously released material and unreleased material with
Bill Bruford and Pierre Moerlen, among others.  Anyone care
to confirm/deny/comment?

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:24:58 EDT
From: Enoboy at aol dot com
Subject: Release date of Crimson DVD
I was very excited to read of the upcoming release of the
Crimson DVD.  I work in the Consumer Audio business and am
pleased that Fripp and company have embraced the new formats
of both DVD and DTS.

However, I have spoken to an inside source involved with the
DVD authoring process who has told me that there is no way
that the disc will be released before the end of the year.
So the November 3 date is erroneous.

It should also be noted that the disc will be among the very
first encoded in DTS.  For those who have not experienced
the difference between Dolby Digital and DTS, you are in for
a treat.  The improved fidelity is immediately apparent.

The only downside is that the vast majority of consumers do
not currently have processors or decoders for DTS, much less
the newest DVD players that will play back the format.  So
most of us will not be able to enjoy the fullest fidelity on
the Crimson DVD until we upgrade our equipment.  I mean, how
many of you have DVD players, much less a DTS decoder? But
the disc will have a conventional Dolby soundtrack that I'm
sure will be excellent.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that this disc comes out
sooner than later.  I will keep the group posted if I get
any more news.

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:15:47 +0100 (BST)
From: Toby van de Peer <toby dot vandepeer at gecm dot com>
Subject: re: The bottom line! (a little bit deeper)
>
>        Any entity calling itself "King Crimson" that does
>not have as one of it's members Robert Fripp, is a vile
>sham, a disgrace, and a non-band.
>
>Blaine D. Arnold

What about if there was no Robert Fripp in the band, but
instead had Paul McCartney, John Lennon, George Harrison and
Ringo Starr as its members? If it was billed as 'King
Crimson,' it still might be worth buying the CD and
T-shirt.... I wouldn't stand near John's side of the stage
though, it might be a bit wiffy :-o ;-)

I'm not too fussed who's in the band so long as it "blows my
socks off." And, yes, surprise is an important factor in the
act I just mentioned. Most of the posts to ET seem to have a
similar opinion (although not using my vulgar wording) and
have been too thoughtfully reasoned for me to reiterate
here.

My contribution is to say that all of this discussion has
been far from destructive. I can't remember being this full
of anticipation for something to come out from a band for
ages (relative to other bands, you know, I do have a
life...)

Its quite exciting, and it gives me so much hope to learn
that someone, somewhere is actually bothering to do
something different, something real, rather than go for the
easy nostalgia option like some bands. (mind you, Ernie, you
were so cruel about Steve Howe in the last newsletter that
I've got a ruddy good mind to challenge you to a duel to the
death with Jon Anderson Karaoke! Maybe a bit too sadistic? I
promise not to use 'Olias Of Sunhillow.')

Anyway, I mustn't go on too long, so "Hey! lighten up
guys!", If you want to hear some particular music then form
a band and learn how to play it! And Mister Fripp, I hope
you get where you're going, and it's cool to hear about the
journey! (I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound quite so
sycophantic, I do half expect to hate the new stuff but
don't let that stop you)

Toby van de Peer
Raining Hard On A Friday Afternoon,
Kent

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:14:24 +0100
From: patrick Midot <vik at club-internet dot fr>
Subject: fripp & bowie tabs
how come no-one ever transcribed robert's parts on bowie's
albums?  if anyone got them, i am interested.

great, great site!
patrick

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:05:46 EDT
From: Papiav at aol dot com
Subject: For Sale
I have the following for sale:

King Crimson "Young Persons Guide to .." 2 LPs
w/booklet. EG Collectors ED. Half speed mastered
Mint cond. treated w/Last. $30.00

King Crimsom "Sleepless" EP LP. Mint cond. Treated
w/Last. $10.00.

Tony Levins Road Photos book. Mint cond. $25.00.

The LPs were played only a few times on an AR-ES1
turntable.

Vinny Papia

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:29:41 +0100
From: "Ashley" <kate dot d at virgin dot net>
Subject: trust, 21st century schizoid spam
g'day all,

i trust fripp and the other KC members implicitly.
whatever they do will be fine, be it reform as the violent femmes or break
new ground with whatever technology they see fit.
without fripp, without bruford. whatever. they have a reason for doing
whatever they do.

i've considered looking at the dgm guestbook but after someone's comments in
the latest ET, i don't think i can be bothered subjecting my brain to the
same ant-fornication as seems to be prevailant here recently.

as a side note i'm wondering whether anyone else on this list is being
spammed by 	Ecsp97 at aol dot com
i pretty sure my email address was picked up from this list. i urge people
to lodge complaints about this scumbag spammer to 	CosUK at aol dot com
forwarding whatever message he's sent you.

that's all. toodle pip,
ashley

**the new, improved ashley's tape trading post - complete with guest book is
now overhauled at
http://freespace.virgin.net/kate.d **

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:50:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: James Hannigan <thefly at panix dot com>
Subject: Bruford's updated views on '74 breakup
It is common to mention the fact that Bruford was not
pleased when Fripp broke up the band in 1974, but in Paul
Stump's book "The Music's All that Matters: A History of
Progressive Rock," published last year, Bruford told the
writer the following: 'I remember in 1974 when Robert told
me he was splitting up King Crimson. "I don't want to be
like all these dinosaur bands," he told me. I remember
thinking, "Well, this is a drag because we're just about to
really make it big, but I guess he's right. And he was."'

Stump said Fripp was going to talk to him about the "music
industry in the UK in the '70s" but not the
music. Apparently Stump had to cancel the interview. Too bad
Night Watch had yet to be issued, he could have referred to
Fripp's notes.

- Jim

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 08:56:13 PDT
From: "Philip Beckwith" <mrghil at hotmail dot com>
Subject: in regards to bruford
Hello ETers,

The Bruford "controversy" has become so annoying that when I
hear the name Bill Bruford i am starting to get that same
nasty feeling that I get when i hear the name Monica
Lewinsky.  I can't wait until this subject dies down to a
manageable level so I can once again enjoy Elephant Talk.

Thanks, Philip

Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:41:57 -0600
From: "Luna Negra S.C." <lunanegr at sjr dot podernet dot com dot mx>
Subject: ET: DVD, Laserdiscs!
Hi, dear Crimsiod friends:

> From: David MacLennan <David dot Maclennan at moc dot govt dot nz>
> Subject: The KC DVD
>
> Seen in ET458:
>
> > "Discipline Global Mobile And Kao Infosystems Produce World's First
> > User-Tailored Musical Experience On DVD For King Crimson
>
> Great, so now I have to go out and buy a DVD player!  No
> way, Jose -- I'm going to wait a few years until the price
> comes down to Earth.

When I first knew about Laserdiscs Players, I 'HAD' to but
one then. Now I wonder if this will be available on
Laserdisc.

>
> I assume none of the audio stuff on this wil play on a
> standard CD player?

NO, but you can play an audio CD on your DVD player!  By the
way, I've just checked out a multi CD player that plays
audio CD, Laserdiscs and DVD.  To our mexican friends, it's
available through Sanborns!  ?Coma la ven?

Juan Jose Salas R.
LUNA NEGRA, S.C.
lunanegr at sjr dot podernet dot com dot mx

Support The Bassoonist Club! (For Lindsay)

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Keith Adams <lizard_kea at yahoo dot com>
Subject: i cant believe>>>>>>>.
dear et readers and about half of the people who have sent
entries to the past couple newsletters:

you guys are really beginning to make me angry.  i can't
believe that you guys call yourself crimson fans when all
you do is complain about everything that might happen to
crimson in the future concerning bruford , the frippless
projekt and so forth.

all i have to say is trust the guy! if you guys like his
music so much just shut up. fripp is a genious and a
musician not the sort of "pop"star you guys are making him
out to be. for a musician to progressand become better he is
to work w/ different people i would actully be happy to see
every in crimson leave and have fripp start all over
again. listen, if fripp and brufords time is up it
is. theyve been playing together on and off since 1973 give
the guys a break!

mr.fripp agreed to this newsletter to recieve intelligent
advice from his fans not to hear how their world will end if
bruford leaves, get a life! so give him some intelligent
insight.

keith elliot adams

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:03:43 -0700
From: Kevin <kevin at minds-eye dot org>
Subject: I do remember one thing...
I was listening to Absent Lovers the other day and realized
that Adrian Belew seems to have already described the
process of Crimson in any formation, past or future.  Makes
debates about who's in or out of the lineup sort of
irrelevant I think.

"No matter how closely I study it
No matter how I take it apart
No matter how I break it down

It remains consitent.
It remains consistent."

enough said I believe.

Kevin

Death by drowning
in your
analysis

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:25:16 -0700
From: Robert Cervero <robertc at uclink dot berkeley dot edu>
Subject: Fripp's 'tron's & Hyde Park
In ET #549, Craig Stamm wrote:

>I remember reading that Robert has put the KC mellotrons up
>for sale, but at several thousand dollars apiece they are
>certainly out of my price range

I wish!  The "In Court..." MKII mellotron (with serial # 115,
supposedly the oldest MKII in circulation) has already
fetched an offer of #10,000 and word has it will probably
go higher.  Evidently there are some high-rollers in the ranks of
Crimson fans (....might there be a few closet Wall Street 'enthusiasts'
out there?).  Do not despair, there are still four other 'trons in the
Fripp household where bids have yet to exceed five digits.

Craig adds.....

>(I hope Robert Cervero is not out robbing banks now).

....not yet.

In ET #548, Enrique notes:

>While reading the booklet on theGreg Lake Retrospective, I
>discovered that he owns a video from the concert in Hyde
>Park in 1969 the day King Crimson opened for the Stones and
>that he thinks it was a great performance, so... for all
>Crimson and Lake fans it could be fantastic to see that
>video, why don't Fripp and Lake comercialise it ?

Word has it that this elusive video is about 10 minutes in length,
but has no  audio!  Hell, I'd settle for a dub, or for
that matter, pure silence (....or we can all play DGM's newly
released  Marquee Club show in the background).....
A pleasant thought: footage of  '69 Hyde Park -- what a
great DGM release that would be (along with
the 30 minute clip of '74 Crimson in Fripp's vault) to
commemorate Crimson's 30th this coming January!

Rob "the analoguist" Cervero

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:25:03 -0700
From: guy <gberger at sdcc13 dot ucsd dot edu>
Subject: re: Robert & ET
Eric Kirchner wrote:

>I've defended E-T in the past. But if circumstances (be they
>silly in my opinion or not) are causing the newsletter to
>damage the process of putting together music we all
>venerate, should the newsletter continue?

	If matters ever progress to the point that Robert
(or any other members of KC) can no longer think creatively
do to the presence of ET, I assume that they will just stop
reading it.

					Guy
----
gberger at ucsd dot edu
Taoism: go hardcore!

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:51:21 -0700
From: "Walter Harley" <walterh at cafewalter dot com>
Subject: RE: Self imposed limitations
Alan dot Maguire at CERT dot IE wrote:
>      Yes, imposing arbitrary limitations (like: Dont play
>      cymbals on this album) can seem to constrain the
>      player, but conversely I think a good musician can find
>      the freedom within limition to explore 1 aspect of an
>      instrument more fully.

Persons interested in this issue might study Chuck Close's
approach to visual art.  (I think there's a Close exhibit at
the Chicago Art Museum at present, unless it's over.)  He
has, over several decades, chosen to limit himself in this
way in order to progress as an artist.  His statement on
this is that he realized he had enough natural drawing
talent that he would be successful but artistically stagnant
unless he took active steps to force new discoveries.

Structures and rules within poetry and classical music also
come to mind.

(And Fripp might not object to Bruford asking him not to use
his low E string - after all, in the tuning he uses there
isn't one.)

    --Walter Harley - http://www.cafewalter.com/~walterh

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:04:36 +0100
From: "John Stevens" <john at edinburgh dot almac dot co dot uk>
Subject: billy b detate etc
C'mon, Toby, let's fuck this stupid Billy B debate.There's
more to life than this!  KC isKC and will continue to be so.
LET'S MOVE ON.  The evolution of NEW concepts is surely of
more interest than living in the past: What will be, will
be.  So, folks, let us now allow KC to move forward, with
our blessings, to become what it will become.

John Stevens

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 02:02:07 +0100
From: Robert J Lethbridge <Robert at seahunter dot demon dot co dot uk>
Subject: Club Issue #1
Just received my DGM club issue #1 today - superb.
Sonically sub standard -but we expected that, never the less
I eagerly played it this morning whilst in bed and my ears
were opened!

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:59:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: DocIrving at webtv dot net (doug mckee)
Subject: King Crimson>past>present>who the hell cares about Prince Rupert?
         Greetings!

I have been observing the E-T debates regarding the status
of King Crimson and who will be in the band. I find the
uproar about Bill Bruford to be quite effusive and IMO
rather un-necessary.

The vast majority of serious Crimson fans are old enough
(and should be wise enough) to understand that we are
talking about professional musicians...not playthings
catering to our individual whims. Bruford may well be the
greatest drummer alive IMO, but he should not be locked in
by something as tawdry as fan pressure. Talented musicians
need to spread their wings and explore. Given the history of
Crimson, it is a reasonable bet that Bruford would return at
some future time anyway!

We should allow Robert Fripp to guide Crimson as he sees
fit. Do I like ALL of the newer exploratory material??? No,
but that view becomes meaningless when the Fripp quest for
experimentation and new direction is TRULY taken into
account...witness some comments about Soundscapes...I love
them and find them unusual and intensely atmospheric in
nature. Have they basked in the fleeting glow of
public/commercial acclaim?  I think not! Further proof that
the arbitrary opinion of the average fan often leaves much
to be desired.

Example...my personal favorite Crimson was the "RED"
lineup. Great stuff!  Viable today? Probably not. Have I
allowed my tastes to grow and change to accomodate the
various KC offerings since "RED" ? Yes!!!  We all
should. King Crimson is a musical entity under constant
metamorphisis in every sense. Please allow Robert Fripp (a
genius in my estimation) to guide it as he sees fit.

In closing, who the hell cares about Prince Rupert, hidden
interpretations and 27 year old album covers? Please...to
these folks all wrapped up in this...its only an album
cover...get over it!!

                                             Doug

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:38:58 EDT
From: ChiKidsFly at aol dot com
Subject: records
twenty years ago I lost my copies of cheerful insanity and
mcdonnald and giles.  even though the sun is shining its
raining in my heart and I would very much like to get a copy
of each again.  do you or any one on line have any idea
where i might purchase these records?

thanks

steve

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:43:37 +0100
From: Russell Whitworth <russell at anchorag dot demon dot co dot uk>
Subject: What I did on my holidays
For reasons that I'll not reveal (so as to maintain some
sense of suspense), ET readers may find amusement in my
holiday snaps at http://www.anchorag.demon.co.uk/newpics.htm

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:59:06 +0100
From: Tim Pickard <timpick at enterprise dot net>
Subject: re:Getting rid of vinyl
First let me thank you all for the incredible
response. Apologies to all those I haven't had time to
repond to yet. I will endevour to reply to everyone
eventually!

I should also apologise for a) rushing into this without due
preparation b)failing to mention that I live in London UK,
c) not asking people to tell me where they live (I have had
replies from. Germany, Italy, Portugal, USA, Japan, Holland
etc. and quite a few from I don't know where).  This is the
first time I've ever tried this and next time(?) I'll invite
offers!

All the best
Tim Pickard

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 98 20:26:08 +0100 ( + )
From: Tony Douglas <Ajdouglas at btinternet dot com>
Subject: Shut Up ?
Dear all,

I must admit to being slightly disadvantaged when writing
this (as Internet Exploder 3 does just that when I try to
read Fripp's Dear Diary on the DGM site), but I must admit
to being somewhat bemused by some of the recent postings on
ET, to the effect that we should communally, in effect,
"shut up and let them get on with it."

Poppycock. (The politest single word I could think of in
response.)

Did The Beatles sit and have conference about whether the
fans would "get" Sergeant Pepper, or the White Album ? Did
U2 have a conflab over the fanbase's likely reaction to
Achtung Baby ?

So why on God's good earth should Fripp and/or KC worry over
the fans opinion of their next step ? If it's crap, I claim
the inalienable right to say so. And if it's great, then
I'll say that too. I thought Space Groove was a bit of
pointless noodle for much of it's length, and they would
have been far better off recording and releasing some
sessions after they'd played together for a bit longer, but
there you go. But my, yours, or anybody else on this list's
opinion is unimportant - if Fripp & KC want to do something,
and feel they should do something, then they should do
it. And to hang with the fanbase. If they don't get it now,
it's more than likeley they will in 5 or 10 years time. And
if Fripp and co. really *are* that worried about *anybody*
else's opinion of what they're doing, they should communally
be given a damn good kick up the arse and told to get a grip
and get on with it.

As for ET ? ET exists for the benefit of ETers. If Fripp and
KC care to read it, that's all fine and dandy. That's not to
say they should pay much attention to it.

It's all part of a worrying trend. Fripp criticises ET for
the quality of some of the posts - cue ETers whinging about
dopey posts and (as theatrically as you can manage in an
e-mail) flouncing off. Fripp apparently complains that the
opinions on ET are favouring the old stuff instead of the
new. Cue complaints on ET that perhaps the list should
quieten up to leave them in peace. Perhaps the next ET
survey should be a "sheep to thinkers ratio" ?

And anyway, Fripp should be used to this sort of comment by
now.  According to the booklet in the Young Person's Guide,
someone left a note in lipstick on the side of the van to
the effect of "Play the old songs - the new stuff is crap"
in about 1970 / 71. (I leave it to someone else to verify
the correct date - I haven't got the booklet to hand).

Have fun everyone !

- Tony

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:52:58 -0700
From: Robert Mayer <ramayer at cyberhighway dot net>
Subject: Two-sided Fripp: correlations between posts
Dear ETers,

Several of us have been involved in creative endeavors
before. Many of us know that it's time-consuming and
requires a great deal of concentration.  In other words,
there have been a couple of posts that indicate that Robert
should stop reading ET, and I can see why. It's like a
woodcarver or painter or sculptor in his or her studio
working on a project only to have friends drop by and not
only ask about it (which would be distracting enough), but
also suggest how to do it. The number of distractions
increase to the point that creative momentum (let's face it,
an artist needs that) is successfully killed, and an artist
begins to wonder if he or she has the so-called "gift" any
more. Let's face it, creative work is a fickle and difficult
occupation. Those who are truly interested in artistic
effort and not commerical reproduction, as would be obvious
to many, is a stressful venue. (And we haven't breached the
idea of what happens when you find yourself the subject of
pity/psychoanalysis in a major arena of communication
without anyone talking to you. It's like listening to
everyone gossip about you...)

Having said that, it would seem simple for Fripp to just
ignore ET and his fans and get back to work. However, there
are two other problems we've discussed. First, Fripp feels a
strong correlation between the development of music and an
audience (i.e. Soundscapes), but even more important, as
many of us have read from a couple of DGM liners, Fripp has
the specter of the EG fiasco on the back of his mind. He
realizes what has happed in allowing non-creative persons to
control the financial aspects, and is trying to handle that
himself. In essence, Fripp is trying to reconcile the
Creative Fripp with the Business Fripp, and that perhaps is
why we're seeing him struggle.

But I wander....

IN the end, I can only hope that Fripp, KC, DGM et al
continues to strive toward the creative integrity they have
always shown, but somehow find a way to solve the
business-end question without coming to a crash.  In this
world of stale reproductions, it's a relief to find artists
attempting something new. Thank you, Fripp, Belew, Levin,
DGM, et al.

R.A. Mayer

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:41:50 PDT
From: "Morten Tornes" <mufte at hotmail dot com>
Subject: What`s going on at ET
Hey.

I am new to the ET and after reciving three digests I must
say: What is going on here is quite silly.

All thre`s talk about is: Is Bruford leaving?, is there
going to be a KC without Robert?, what will they do?, ahhh
what will they do?  My opinion is what ever happens to KC is
up to the people involved in KC, NOT the fans.  I`m happy
with what ever they do. I`m sure Robert is capable of making
good desicions, he`s been make them for over 30 years now.

Allthough I must admitt I don`t fancy the thought of a KC
without Robert. You can`t really call that King Crimson now
can you?  There`s not much left off what you started out
with there then.  That would be like the Genesis you`ve got
now, which is real silly.  I mean Peter Gabriell left and
Phil Collins started singing was big change, but ok. ( he
really should have sticked to drumming, he`s the king of
whirl) But what happens when you take away Phil and put in
some young "Stilt Skin" guy. You`re left with something
sounding like (pardon my french) shit. I mean, you`re mixing
generations. The old people trying to sound hipp and the
young person trying to live up to this big thing.

I`m sorry if I gott a tad off subject here. Got carried
away.

My point is: if you take away Robert you don`t have KC, you
have something else. Call it whatever you like, just not KC.

Matt Barber had an interesting idea. To put Bill Bruford,
Arian Belew and Tony Levin in a group. There you have you no
Fripp band, but you don`t have to call it KC.

This was my first posting to ET.  Hope somebody cared to
read it, and even like something off what I had to say.

P.S: does anybody know if KC has had concerts in Norway?
(where I live) If so, when and where was that?  And dear
Robert Fripp, could you care to consider coming to Norway?
Just playing anything, soundscapes, guitar craft, projeCKt
or Kc (mostly KC :)) I`m of the new generation and I can`t
go all the way to the US.  So please, if you`re reading
this. Consider coming to Norway. We have this great Jazz
festival in my home town Molde each summer. Maybe you could
come there.

Bye for now.

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:19:00 -0600
From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson)
Subject: Frippless KC
Responding to David MacLennan's synopsis in ET #549:

>Moving further down ET548, two adjacent posts caught my eye:
>
>> From: "Eric Anderson" <e-anderson at carthage dot edu>
>>
>> Fripp clearly illustrates how the restricting bind of
>> audience expectation is suffocating the way in which King
>> Crimson is.
>
>and...
>
>> From: jessica <oppepper at earthlink dot net>
>
>> Having just read Robert Fripp's stunning new journal
>> entry, I reply publicly that:
>>
>> I WILL NEVER PURCHASE A "KING CRIMSON" ALBUM, ATTEND
>> A "KING CRIMSON" LIVE PERFORMANCE OR SUPPORT IN ANY WAY
>> ANYTHING CALLED "KING CRIMSON" IF ROBERT FRIPP IS NOT
>> INVOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned yet, but what
about the possibility of Fripp writing for KC (in whatever
form it may take) as behind-the-scenes songwriter, in the
way that the Beach Boys did with Brian Wilson? That way,
Fripp is released of the emotional/historical baggage of
dealing with incessant burble, banter, and brou-ha-ha from
audients with limited interest in R&D, and those audients
who *do* want to hear the latest results of Fripp's R&D will
get to do so.

I say this mindful of the fact that ET lately has been
turning into a "forum to tell Bobby, Billy, and company what
to do" and that by making this suggestion I am only
contributing to the problem. If you are reading this, Robert
(and again I am guilty of sharing every ET'er's supposition
that my measly post is being personally read by Mr. Fripp),
it is only offered as a friendly brainstorm, not a demand or
even a wish on my part.  My only wish for KC is that you be
allowed to pursue your aim, and that we as audients may
somehow share in the aural result.

Now back to your regular arguments, agreements,
advice... some of which has lately been peppered with far
too much upper-case cybershouting and multiple exclamation
points. As RF has been known to say, "lighten up".

Kevin Holm-Hudson
kholmhud at nwu dot edu

Kevin Holm-Hudson
Senior Lecturer, Department of Academic Studies and Composition
Master, Jones Fine and Performing Arts Residential College
Northwestern University School of Music
711 Elgin Rd.
Evanston, IL 60208
e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:47:34 +0000
From: "Marc Carlton" <9703527c at student dot gla dot ac dot uk>
Subject: IMPORTANT: to all Artists who send tapes...
Hello,

To all in the Crimson Kingdom and the related realm who have
unsuccessfully (success being irrelevant, it seems) sent
work to DGM; let us all make contact. If we can set up
correspondences with each other, and if there are enough of
us, perhaps we may create something ourselves. If there is
any reaction to this at all, feel free to contact me.

Marc Carlton.

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:13:37 PDT
From: "Dick Ross" <dick_ross at hotmail dot com>
Subject: 99
ET,

    King Crimson  ...  Drink deep, enjoy.

    King Crimson 99  ...  Bring a clean and empty cup.

            Dick Ross

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:37:09 +0200
From: "Christian Skina" <stalker at bart dot nl>
Subject: Question for the details connoisseur Crimhead
Collector's Club vol. 2 is said to be the Jacksonville show, spring 1972.
Since in that spring I was 11* and not being good in details (still have not
memorized titles of albums, not to mention songs-), I'd ask the Crimhead
connoisseur to tell me if this concert was part of the Islands tour. I hear
there's been something like that. Thank you.

* For the fun of it: part of my youth I have spent in a
country considering foreign cultures as dangerous. Music,
which travels faster than anything else, was particularly
prohibited. Since part of my family was living abroad and
had some friends involved in the music business, I could get
my hands on some rotten western culture. I remember 1974 as
being a year full of musical encounters. One tape I managed
to record (from another tape) was by a certain guy King
Crimson. I thought he was the guitar player in a group
bearing his name(sic). There was a song there that knocked
me down, in particular the way the guitar solo was
developing within the whole (and I wasn't born yesterday,
Zappa and McLaughlin were already my idols). In spring 75 I
have joined a school band and perversely talked its members
into these obscure tapes. [Obscure to the folks of my age,
not so obscure to some older friends of mine, who were
bringing these tapes in]. They through me out of the band
from two obvious reasons: I had no hand coordination, thus
was unable to play any instrument and my
two-notes-guitar-solo was never ending. As you might have
guessed, we were thinking we were playing Starless and I was
so delighted with Mr. Fripp's solo, I just couldn't stop
playing some two notes, while the band was growing higher
and higher, more tense with each minute passing.

In 75 I went abroad and found out that Crimson was not his
family name- Then I was smashed by Islands. The news of
hearing this live is overwhelming me.

PS. I think is much better to perform music than just to
listen to so, if you have any possibility, do so.

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:03:29 PDT
From: "~ Hogard" <hogard at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Review of _Lizard_
Hey ET-ers,

The Daily Vault review site (http://www.dailyvault.com/) has
tackled _Lizard_ today (for those of you still concerned
with "historic" Krim).

Hogard

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:53:52 -0700
From: "William Heinrichs" <wmh at mail1 dot jpl dot nasa dot gov>
Subject: Should ET Continue?
>Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:23:35 -0700

>From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL <ekirchner at deltadentalil dot com>

>Subject: E-T

>I've defended E-T in the past. But if circumstances (be they

>silly in my opinion or not) are causing the newsletter to

>damage the process of putting together music we all

>venerate, should the newsletter continue?

>Eric

Should ET continue?

My vote is a definite YES! ET is not to be blamed for
damaging the rocess for putting together music. ET is
simply a medium to ommunicate. What we as members choose
to communicate (and the tone in hich we do so) has a
greater bearing on others than the medium we use.

A more appropriate question would be: Does my post add value
to, or does t diminish the ET community?

    Bill

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:26 -0500
From: "Dr. Michael Kovacs" <Michael dot Kovacs at LHSC dot ON dot CA>
Subject: DVD digital sound
Just to clarify. The various posts indicate that the
proposed DVD will have "DTS". Will it have, however, the
more prevalent Dolby Digital ( also known as AC3) ?

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:14:37 EDT
From: Boobird at aol dot com
Subject: The Incline to '99...
Dear Folks,

   Just in the writing mood, especially after reading
Robert's latest diary entry.  I knew all would be right with
the world, despite his initial misgivings about P4 (which
should still produce some amazing, and "possibly Crimson,"
music).  I envy all you folks out west; should be an
audiovisual treat!

   Already looking forward to October, 1999.  Here's hoping
that the initial Midwest leanings hold (fellow Twin Citians,
cross your fingers).  I hope it's not moved to November,
because any Chicago trip would be pre-empted by "the old Y2K
problem" (my company has already stated NO VACATIONS
11/99-02/00...  :-( ).  By the way, is DGM "Y2K ready"?  ;-)

   The King is different; long live the King!

Mark

np: Native of the Rain (Tony Geballe)

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:21:01 -0700
From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL <ekirchner at deltadentalil dot com>
Subject: I WAS WRONG ABOUT E-T
I retract my statements regarding whether E-T should
continue. After some thought and discussion with another
subscriber, I realized that E-T's value is measured by the
subscribers and not one outside force. Many have written in
over the last month to say how it has contributed to their
enjoyment of the music and has introduced them to stuff they
would never have heard of before, and if for no other
reason, that makes E-T worth keeping.

If E-T is somehow making Fripp feel stifled, that's his
cross to bear - no one is holding a gun to his head to make
him read it. Maybe some of us get carried away with
speculation or nostalgia about King Crimson, but I hope in
his heart of hearts, Fripp can look upon E-T not as an
albatross but as a generally well-meaning group of
enthusiasts enamored with his music and methods of bringing
it to the world.

It has been explained to me that Fripp's sometimes less than
diplomatic retorts regarding E-T can to some degree be
explained by his incredible personal intensity - perhaps
those demolished in his missive of 10/16 can take that into
account before committing a rash act like taking their DGM
CDs to the used CD shop.

Sorry for the flip-flop,
Eric

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:29:24 PDT
From: "Michael Irish" <dhalgren at hotmail dot com>
Subject: ET On Endangered Species List?
On first hearing Damage: This is a magnificent set.  One
thing that particularly strikes me, given a band where you
have four distinctive guitarists, is the sense of space
here, of the interaction of music and space.  There is no a
sense of Michael Brook, David Sylvian, Robert Fripp, or Trey
Gunn stepping over each other; rather there's a sense of
integration, with the focus on the expansion of music rather
than the soloist.

ET I: I still feel that this is a great site and thank Toby
for the work he has done continuing this site.  I understand
that Robert finds ET limiting and counterproductive in the
creation of new music; that, with our love for previous
manifestations of King Crimson, we are weighing down paths
that Robert wishes to pursue, paths of creation freed from
audience expectations.  I agree with previous posts
regarding Robert dropping ET from today's reading list.
Between working with DGM, with the organization of releases
by the Collector's Club, and rehearsing for Projekct IV, I
wonder that Robert finds time to sleep, let alone accessing
music sites.

ET II: Of especial interest of late has been Robert Fripp's
Soundscapes in particular, and tape-looping in
general. Using the ET Archives, I've been able to access
information regarding the history and technology involved in
this means of music expression.  Using search engines had
not been as productive.

Why need there be a new King Crimson at all?  This year has
given us Upper Extremities, Space Groove, Belewprints, and
The Gates of Paradise, recordings I continue to return to.
At no point did I think, "well, this is all very good and
fine, but where in heaven above is the new King Crimson
Lark's Tongues in Asphalt Part Four?"

Mike

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:08:17 +0000
From: Francois Corve <fcorve at infoflash dot fr>
Subject: First Post and Questions Already
Hello to every one of you.

First of all, forgive my english : any mistake is simply due
to my poor usage of any language that is not
french. Nobody's perfect.

I read ET newletter quite often and I decided to post some
queries for my first try at it.  1/ Are the abrupt cuts at
the end of Absent lovers (when the audience applause) on all
copies ? Or is my CD player encountering problems?  2/ On
"live at the marquee", is Schizoid Man supposed to be
complete or is it still my CD player that is unable to read
the beginning of it?  Same question, different record...
Hope someone can give me answers on this.

By the way, Club release No1 is a great surprise : packaging
is good, music is good, liner notes are as interesting as
usual and sonics are ... who cares? More on this later.

NOTE : I'm not using my computer right now. Mine is down for
a few hours. My e-mail address for any reply is :
sberland at infoflash dot fr

Thanks a lot by advance. I already spent great time reading
ET Newsletter. I'll continue. Some subjects are really
entertaining or thought provoking, information is often
valuable.

Keep up the good work (this one for Toby) and good postings
(for everyone else).

Regards,

Stephane Berland
Email: sberland at infoflash dot fr
-----------------------------


Mike Stok