Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #549 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 549 Friday, 16 October 1998 Today's Topics: The KC DVD Audients' expectations (long-ish) FS: fripped LPs Long Posts In ET Stick/Warr music in Boston, 10/28 Sightings Self imposed limitations. past and future Crimson Earthbound approved! E-T Negative Impact Damage and Recovery Fripp, Bruford and Artistic Vision; Outdated Yes Fantasys Re: True Classic Yes!!; what we/the artists want; Pat not good DGM and the art of being artist-friendly No Comment, Rory/KC KonneCtions, Percussive Metal, Memorabilia Ideas for an acoustic "ProjeKct" What In The World... Re: Brufords Departure/Repl. discussion KC Evolution In Support of the Crimson King BLUE in the Philadelphia Face ET about ETers Long Love the Crimson King! Distortions, Diatribes and the Unknown v Future Re: Adrian's drumming Frippless KC What Do Crimson fans want? A quick response League of the Lizard, Sinfield, Fibonacci, Rupert's Tears Guestbook chez DGM Future Crimson E-T Where is Fripp playing in Philly? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:19:44 +1300 From: David MacLennan Subject: The KC DVD Seen in ET458: > "Discipline Global Mobile And Kao Infosystems Produce World's First > User-Tailored Musical Experience On DVD For King Crimson Great, so now I have to go out and buy a DVD player! No way, Jose -- I'm going to wait a few years until the price comes down to Earth. I assume none of the audio stuff on this wil play on a standard CD player? David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:14:12 +1300 From: David MacLennan Subject: Audients' expectations (long-ish) Moving further down ET548, two adjacent posts caught my eye: > From: "Eric Anderson" > > Fripp clearly illustrates how the restricting bind of > audience expectation is suffocating the way in which King > Crimson is. and... > From: jessica > Having just read Robert Fripp's stunning new journal > entry, I reply publicly that: > > I WILL NEVER PURCHASE A "KING CRIMSON" ALBUM, ATTEND > A "KING CRIMSON" LIVE PERFORMANCE OR SUPPORT IN ANY WAY > ANYTHING CALLED "KING CRIMSON" IF ROBERT FRIPP IS NOT > INVOLVED!!!!!!!!!!! Eric Anderson's thoughtful post (echoed in part by JD Mack in the same issue) sums up the problem very neatly, I feel. KC has always done its own thing, for better or worse, and must continue to do so. What form that "thing" might take is, quite frankly, none of our business. It is for the members of KC only to decide. I fully endorse Eric's comments: I want KC to continue to amaze, surprise and confound my expectations as they have always done. To paraphrase the poet Robert Frost, they have always taken the road less travelled by and that has made all the difference. Contrast KC's development with that of, say, Yes and ELP (both bands I like a lot, BTW): neither band has been anywhere near the cutting edge of things for a quarter-century or so. Just compare Yes's "Keys To Ascension 2" with, say, "Space Groove" or "THRaKaTTaK". As for Blaine's post, I sincerely hope it was tongue in cheek, for if not then all I can say is that his attitude typifies the very thing Fripp complains about regarding audients' expectations. While I have some sympathy for Blaine's view in that I, too, would have great difficulty in coming to terms with a Frippless band that called itself "King Crimson" as being a bona fide KC (for all that I might like the music on its own terms), I think his attitude is unreasonable. What it boils down to is this: are you, as an audient, part of the problem or part of the solution, as regards what we want KC to do in the future? Blaine Arnold would appear to be part of the problem, while Eric Anderson's healthy attitude shows that he is part of the solution. Perhaps the best thing would be for Fripp & Co. to cease reading ET and posts to the DGM site and just get on with making the music in their own way and in their own time. David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:42:03 -0400 From: Steve Roche Subject: FS: fripped LPs These 4 US releases are in M- condition. Let The Power Fall God Save The Queen / Under Heavy Manners The League of Gentlemen Also included is Darryl Hall's Sacred Songs (produced by Fripp). Package price is $15 postpaid in the USA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:10:31 -0400 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Long Posts In ET I so much don't mind long posts, but please limit your paragraphs to no more than 9 or ten sentences. Long posts with paragraphs over 10 sentences tend to drag, and are definitely a real pain to read. Please if you must post a long one, try and break it up into readable paragraphs. Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:39:24 -0700 From: Peter Shindler Subject: Stick/Warr music in Boston, 10/28 Hi gang. Just wanted to pass on some concert info that you may (or may not) find interesting... Boston-based band called SmokStik will be playing at Johnny D's in Cambridge (Davis Square) on Oct 28 to promote their new CD, "Bugs." The band features John Kiehne on Chapman Stick and vocals and Hillary Koogler on drums. Opening up for them are the Joe Feloni Band and the Sweepers, featuring Victor McSurely (Crafty Guitarist and current Blue Man Group Stickist) on his shiny new Warr Guitar. The show starts at 8:30, and SmokStik go on around 10:30. Not sure about the cover, but it shouldn't be too much. If you're in town, here's another chance to see Sticks in action. E-mail John at SmokStik at supergod dot net for more info. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:50:27 +0000 From: Don Cooper Subject: Sightings Hi Gang, A couple of weeks ago I went to San Francisco to attend the annual gathering of the Audio Engineering Society (AES). This is a trade show which features demonstrations of professional audio products, some of which have been recently released. I wished I had gone about a month later, and seen P4, but, oh well. Now, the Sightings: 1)On Saturday, I went to a book signing at Borders where I met a fellow CrimHead who was raving about the recent CGT show in that same space. 2)I saw and heard the V-Drums through headphones. Incredible! I think Huey Lewis though so too. 3)The NPR radio station was playing KC and Eno! This is a big deal for me, since I live where the radio is unlistenable. I had tapes with me and didn't even need them. 4) I met Adrian. This was the second time we had met (the other in Albany after a P2 show). There is not a nicer man on the face of this earth. One thing I didn't do is go to Patricia fripp's office to get a button. SF ET'ers, enjoy the show! Awaiting the DVD, Don Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:42 +0100 (BST) From: Alan dot Maguire at CERT dot IE Subject: Self imposed limitations. Hello all, My first post in ages, here goes... Ryan S Wrote: >Issue 1:... Remember the no high-hat >"rule" for thrak and the less cymbals "idea" in the >eighties. That was completely unfair to BB. Imagine if Belew >said to Fripp,"ok for this album, don't use your low E >string". I see that the attempt is to break away from the >familar, but in practice it's like tying one arm behind your >back. Yes, imposing arbitrary limitations (like: Dont play cymbals on this album) can seem to constrain the player, but conversely I think a good musician can find the freedom within limition to explore 1 aspect of an instrument more fully. Would BB have played such intersting patterns on tracks like Thela if he was allowed to fill out the sound with hats instead of toms? Sure, it feels like you've one hand tied behind your back, but how else will you find out if your ambidextrous or not? I see a parallel with Fripps playing, first in imposing the NST on himself (an attempt to rid himself of old habits according to the DGM diary, I'm paraphrasing here) and secondly in that he almost never bends strings anymore. By limiting some aspects of his playing he's forcing himself to find new ways of doing things in other ways. Just a thought. Cheers, Alan Maguire. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:45:46 +0100 From: "mark" Subject: past and future Crimson Hmm where to start: I have just been reading Fripps latest postings on DGM. It seems that Mr Fripp is going through that process that all creative people go through - doubt and a need for redefinition. One thing clear from his posts is that he feels that the fan base (which in part this list is perhaps the most vocal) do not support the new stuff KC and related projects are doing. Perhaps this is true but for me it is not. I remeber the first time I hear ITCOTCK - this was different music and it sent shivers up my spine. Perhaps for the first time I realized what music was *capable* of. I recently bought Epitaph and had that same feeling from the first disc. THRAkATTAck (spelling?) did the same though. For me Thrak was disapointing - the possibilities that the band on paper outlined did not seem to be realized - I am hoping that these will come about though the fracKtals. We as fans have a reponsibility. As Fripp points out in his comments about unsolicited mail - no artist exists in a vacum. The audience energises and influences the art. We should be pushing the musicians on to new and greater things - giving them an energy wave on which to ride into the future. Not standing on the shore shouting "come back we liked it when you were over here". I for one am eager to hear where Fripp and co. are going - I already know where they have been - I have many (much loved) CD's of this - and thanks to DGM Collectors I will get many more. I have lived and worked with many artists from many disciplines - and I know one thing - unless you push them to realise their posibilities - their creativity dies. That in my opinion is a terrible thing. mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:23:57 +0000 From: Selinsky Subject: Earthbound approved! Dear ET'ers, This morning, I got a fax from Robert Fripp, giving me permission to use audio samples of Earthbound, and to start the Earthbound homepage! The audio samples will be samples, not the entire album (as exciting the latter prospect may have seen to some of you :) I express my thanks to Robert for taking the time to reply. I'm very excited, and I look forward to your submissions. Thanks to Edgar Krause, who's submitted some nice photos already, and a clip from a record review (including a quote by Robert). Thanks to all who offered help, I'll keep everyone posted when the site is about to be up. If you want to contribute any Earthbound information, regarding the history of the album, it's reviews, and so forth, please send them to earthrise at apexmail dot com , and feel free to send your commentary and so forth. - George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:42:41 -0700 From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: E-T Negative Impact I've been a pretty staunch defender of E-T over the last few months, but after reading Fripp's diary on the DGM website, I'm beginning to wonder if his reading E-T is having a negative impact. I say this because of his dwelling on expectations from years past, and frankly, I think he has a point. Many of us (myself included) post comments or musings that directly reflect the baggage we bring in to a discussion on King Crimson (be they emotional, technical or whatever). Open any E-T over the last year, and these sort of posts are peppered through the issue. I'm not suggesting that we stop postings on that subject (after all, as I've mentioned before, the newsletter is established so that such postings can be brought up and discussed). But maybe Fripp shouldn't be getting this much input by reading E-T. I won't tell him what he can and can't read, but maybe not reading E-T would help. Any thoughts? Eric (yes, I did think about what I posted before sending it, and I think it's relevant). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:36:15 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: Damage and Recovery After two letters yesterday, both of which gave the Robert Fripp/David Slyvian "Damage" recording the highest recommendation, I bought it today at one of the better trade-in shops here, for twenty-nine dollars, ninety-nine cents. This recording, which was in a glass case near the register, was labeled as an "Import Pressing Sale"; the back of the slip case notes the inclusion of a 32 page booklet and 24 carat gold CD. The case, booklet, and CD are in perfect condition. Where they obtained it from, I have no idea. Things are looking fine on the concert front, as I'm be seeing the Al Dimeola ProjeKct, followed by a Garbage concert. I'm hoping to see Joe Satriani also. Today's favorite Robert Fripp improvisation: Brian Eno's "Baby's on Fire." Mike I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:36:59 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Fripp, Bruford and Artistic Vision; Outdated Yes Fantasys I. The combination of Robert Fripp and Bill Bruford has made for some of the most interesting "small group" music of the last thirty years, and their potential to do more (all of this has been with others of course, but even alone these two could blow most bands away) is without question--if they feel inspired to do so. All things must pass, and if Fripp and Bruford are no longer inspired to create together, so be it. We should wish them well on their future work and look forward to it ourselves. II. For these two to work together out of fan-demand or because "it's Crimson" would be a huge mistake. Fripp and Bruford will only create interesting music if they are in a position that they are both comfortable with. If either player decides that this is not the time or place for him to create, so be it--whatever the reason. Is the electric vs. acoustic debate a good enough reason? Yes, it is. Is it the real reason? It doesn't matter. All that really matters is that each individual's creative process continues, be they alone or together. III. It is amazing to find that some list members see this as an opportunity for a reformation of Yes. Does anyone really believe Bruford would leave KC for another rock band? Clearly, it is jazz that is calling him into his future, not Yes calling him into his past. Fortunately, neither Fripp or Bruford are interested in creating a time machine for those who want to return to the late 60s or early 70s, that so-called golden era (it wasn't), but there are plenty of musicians who are willing to do so. Go to their shows and leave Fripp and Bruford to their futures. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:09:15 +0100 From: Jon Shaw Subject: Re: True Classic Yes!!; what we/the artists want; Pat not good >Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:01:56 -0700 >From: Scott Steele >Subject: True Classic Yes!!; what we/the artists want; Pat not good >>Now if we can just get Bill and Allan Holdsworth together again. >It's not about what we want, it's about what the artists >want, and whether they can create an environment where art >can be created. Couldn't agree more! I've been amazed at the amount of waffle surrounding how Robert is wrong to exclude Bill and Bill should do this and not that. We may like, or in some cases revere, KC but it is up to the artists to decide on the direction and composition of KC..... At least until the DGM "virtual-reality KC" on CD-ROM when all the whingers will get what they want --- to BE Robert and define their own incarnation! Regards Jon Shaw Information Systems Manager, Scomagg Limited Email work: jon dot shaw at scomagg dot co dot uk Email home: jonshaw at ndirect dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:38:03 +0100 From: "Tim Walker" Subject: DGM and the art of being artist-friendly Hi ETers, I've been reading the digest for months now, and although I've usually enjoyed the debates, my first contribution has been a long time coming (isn't "If you have nothing to say, better to say nothing" a very Frippian principle?). It's a bit of a departure from the Bruford posts of late, so I trust you won't mind the change ;-) In my view, Robert's thoughts on the music business, and the philosophy behind DGM, may be more in tune with the times than he realises. You may be aware of the current debate over MPEG1 layer 3 audio (or MP3), especially in the light of the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) taking out an injunction to stop sale of Diamond's Rio (a portable MP3 player, like a digital Walkman), amid the RIAA's accusations that MP3 is nothing more than a music pirate's tool. ET is probably not the place to debate this. What is relevant here, I think, is that the mp3.com site (http://www.mp3.com/ - arguably the leading resource site for the format) has launched DAM (Digital Automatic Music), a scheme for legitimate musicians to sell CDs of their music. Full details are in mp3.com's press release (at http://www.mp3.com/news/091.html), but here is a summary: Prospective artists are asked to read an "easy-to-understand" contract, and fill out a form from the mp3.com Web site. They design the CD they wish to sell, by selecting the price ($5-$9) and uploading MP3s of the tracks they want to appear on the CD. Obviously, the artists have to meet the recording costs themselves, but on the DAM scheme there are no signup or monthly fees, and mp3.com handles the CD production, sales, and order fulfilment. Most important of all, the artist retains the copyright in their work, and if the artist is not receiving value from the arrangement, in the words of mp3.com's president: "...they can exit and lose nothing. The artist is always in control." This sounds to me very close to Robert's recording philosophy, and the modus operandi of DGM (did anyone notice the similarity in acronyms?). It's heartening that music technology has advanced to the point where ethical, artist-orientated music production and distribution is more of a possibility than ever before. Artists now have the chance to take more control of how their music is presented to the world, which is conceivably one reason why the big record companies and collectives like the RIAA oppose technologies like MP3. (Incidentally, I do not use MP3 myself for piracy I would be most interested to hear Robert's views on schemes such as the one above, and how it fits in with his own views on the music business and the ethos of DGM. And, of course, I'd like to find out what you think :-) Apologies for waffling a bit, and thanks for reading... Best wishes, Tim Walker. *******************Tim Walker - Staines, UK******************* tawalker at dircon dot co dot uk - www.users.dircon.co.uk/~tawalker/ The Hall of the Endless Knot - looping, prog-rock guitar, etc. ********www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5117******* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:04:35 -0400 From: s craig stamm Subject: No Comment, Rory/KC KonneCtions, Percussive Metal, Memorabilia Hello Once Again Greater Chrimheads, It's been a while since I have de-lurked and posted, so here I am, hopefully with something of interest to report. First, I wouldn't touch the Bruford/Fripp line with a pair of aluminum foil-coated Funk Fingers, a Presidential cigar, or any of a variety of 3+ meter poles. I have seen some nice references to my late, great, rock/blues guitar hero Rory Gallagher lately in ET (specifically, Dan's post in ET 543--"Rory and Fripp Blind Date" and the mention by Michael Irish as one of the great guitarist/composers in ET 547). It was great to find out that Rory (through Taste) and KC shared the same bill together (Birmingham) in their formative days. I have some other Rory/KC crossovers to share with you as well. It was reported by Rory's brother (Donal) recently that Tony Arnold was responsible for a lot of the remastering of Rory's LPs to CD format, and that Tony (of the Courthouse Facilities in Dorset) was his first choice to master the new wave of re-released (plus bonus track) CDs, but wasn't available. As you know Tony and the Frippster did the EG Remasters of KC albums (which may get remastered again!). Also, while looking on the web for the new re-releases of Rory's albums on CD, I found a place called CD Universe (www.cduniverse.com) that has some excellent prices and may help buyers spread out their music interests by cross referencing via, "People who buy Rory Gallagher also tend to buy these artists": Jack Bruce/Robin Trower, The Beatles, Neil Young, John Lennon, Pink Floyd, John McLaughlin, etc..., and King Crimson! Hence, perhaps other Crimheads would like Rory's music as well (e-mail me if you'd like some suggestions). When I looked up King Crimson at CD Universe not only did I see a large catalog of both import and domestic CDs at excellent prices (the recently mentioned (ET 547) Japanese import of Epitaph Vol 3 & 4 for $39.47), but I checked out their section on "People who buy KC also tend to buy these artists" and found: Pink Floyd, London Philharmonic/Yes, Neil Young, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Frank Zappa, The Beatles, Jethro Tull, Led Zepplin, The Rolling Stones, Marillion, Alan Parsons, Bob Dylan, Camel, Fleetwood Mac, The Who, Steve Hackett, Jimi Hendrix, Soft Machine, Paul McCartney, and Van Der Graaf Generator (but no Rory). This seems to go somewhat hand-in-hand with the top ten plus poll collected by Ashley and Louis back in ET 482. After reading about the KC drum controversy, I was thinking about what other sorts of drums may work with KC. I know that Bill Bruford and Jamie Muir used to have sheets of metal that they would strike, and the notion of steel drums came to my mind. I know that the Caribbean steel drum would not work (except on that hilarious "lounge version" of Vroom by P2). I would have to bet that steel drum sounds are not on the V-drum menu given their complex harmonics. I see that the University of Texas at El Paso has been able to manufacture single-note disks out of stainless steel, but given Robert's dislike of metal cymbals perhaps this is a poor idea. BTW, Ellie Mannette, the father of the steel drum, is right here in Morgantown, WV at WVU furthering the science of this instrument and it's tuning (check out the www.sciencenews.org site under "selected full-text articles"--musical metal). Finally, it seems that we are all gravitating toward the DGM website and the news section written by Robert (yeh, I too have that page bookmarked). Lots of insight into Robert and a load of KC-related stuff to comment about on ET (remember, think first before pushing "send" on your e-mail--our emotions tend to get the best of us). Kudos to Robert for giving us insight into his productive and interesting life. I remember reading that Robert has put the KC melotrons up for sale, but at several thousand dollars apiece they are certainly out of my price range (I hope Robert Cervero is not out robbing banks now). I wonder if Frippster has some more affordable instruments or memorabilia for sale to fans, such as old posters, custom guitar picks, and the like. Perhaps we could each afford a piece of Chrimhistory if Robert or other band members could make some things available. OK, I've rambled on long enough! Best wishes, Craig "Man is only limited by his imagination"--Werner von Braun ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:42:58 +0100 From: M dot Barber at greenwich dot ac dot uk Subject: Ideas for an acoustic "ProjeKct" Hello everyone, After reading Robert Fripp's musings on the Discipline web site regarding possible "projeKcts" without him present I got particularly interested in the idea of an acoustic trio. Obviously, Bill Bruford would be first on the list due to his wish to play acoustic drums and percussion. Next up would be Adrian Belew. I've been listening a lot to Belew Prints lately, on which he not only does acoustic guitar versions of Cage and Dinosaur, but also does arrangements of numerous other songs for an acoustic band. He might not be interested in a KC without Fripp, but a "projeKct" could be another matter. Finally, I'd round off the trio with Tony Levin, who's put in many an excellent acoustic bass performance in his time, as well as being Bruford's most regular sparring partner over the years. So, we'd have a trio that could explore Bruford's new ideas, rework 80s and 90s Crim songs in an acoustic format, and probably improvise too. Maybe the band could see other ideas as well. Interestingly, this also leaves the so far unused "ProjeKct Three" lineup of Fripp, Gunn and Mastelotto free to keep up the electronic track of KC. This all sounds like a good idea to me. What does everyone else think? Cheers, Matt Barber ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:16:50 +0000 From: "Marc Carlton" <9703527c at student dot gla dot ac dot uk> Subject: What In The World... I cannot believe some of the things I have been reading concerning the future of Crimson; or, rather, what some of us think it should be. Due to that ultimately wretched little root of humanity that our creator planted in us for a joke, we have vastly convoluted what should be a simple subject. As a youngster and Crimson rookie, but nevertheless owner of an understanding of their raison d'etre, I have a power of hindsight over their whole career without all the temporal influences that were evident when each LP first came out. That is; no pressure, obligation, press reading, drug-taking or forgetfulness. And their work, regardless/non-regardless of the members, has survived in exemplary fashion - because the aims have survived, or at least they have survived as best they could under ridiculous ramifications in the music business. Fripp has addressed, unequivocally, his purpose within Crimson on several occasions. Some of us just don't want to listen. As long as the Crimsoid Aim is respected, regretfully a massive task it seems, the members of the band are ALWAYS appropriate, being the relevant vehicles at certain points in time to carry the Way. I see this having happened successfully for nearly thirty years, a time span that has corrupted several other musical geniuses, so my faith remains in King Crimson to continue as the Aim sees fit. In this respect, to support or to not support is irrelevant; and it is this that I feel Fripp aches for we fanatics to realise. 'Now, forget all this.' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:00:41 +0200 From: David Subject: Re: Brufords Departure/Repl. discussion Of course the end of BB's Kcollaboration is not a reason for happiness. He might just have wanted to change the scene (never moved into another city/employerwhatsoever?). Although interesting is the thoughts on what has been his chosen job on the drums and what could appear to be a new solution. I could imagine, that a problem is the arts of reduction, of not taking away to much room (acoustic room is something limited). It's probably not easy, also in the established pro-scene to find anyone, who's relaxed enough not to continuously promote him(her)self in an aggressive manner. Of course Bruford has done brilliant drumming at KC (he will carry on, anyway!), I don't think instead that Brilliance is bound on persons; it's a state of mind IMHO everyone can attain. Maybe KC "unlocks" someone new and exciting. It's not that urgent that any compromises are to be accepted by the band so I'm just curious. David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:32:37 -0400 From: "RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR." Subject: KC Evolution Just a note to recognize the seemingly silent percentage of ET'rs enjoying the personal faith, courage and excitement necessary to appreciate any near term step in the evoultion of KC. Given the history of the band, I crave each opportunity to share in the witness of artists capable of nourishing their creative spirit and the synergies of reconstructing the creative environment are accessible in many planes. God Bless the pursuits of the free artists that share the gifts they receive. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:14:05 -0400 From: "Hickson, Robert [PRI]" Subject: In Support of the Crimson King Purported to be a quote from Robert Fripp: "DO NOT hold down my moment. You kill me, you kill Crimson, and you impoverish a precious opportunity for us all." I don't want to be reactionary...but perhaps it is time to silence ET. It is becoming more obvious to me that the NET result of ET is to weaken Crimson to the point of nonexistence. Posts to ET span the range from thoughtful to down right moronic (cast the first stone my way, I'm guilty too). But as Robert Fripp has remarked, a lot of noise minus a lot of noise is not silence. ET seems to amplify the energy and effect of passionate King Crimson fans (yes, fans). Could it be that through our collective silence we could allow King Crimson to achieve something beyond any of our expectations? Could that moment be more revealing in that we allowed it to occur without our burden? Please, Toby, give King Crimson the gift of silence. This could be the moment that tells the tale... Sorry for being so bold, Bert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:06:18 -0400 From: c62op27 at ibx dot com (Victor Fiorillo) Subject: BLUE in the Philadelphia Face Since I missed the last show, I am happy to hear that BLUE is returning to the TLA in Phila on 12/2... this according to the Phila City Paper. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:29:22 -0400 From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Subject: ET about ETers The wise Kathryn Otterstein said..... < BQ> A number of weeks ago a few people got upset at Fripp for commenting (I am paraphrasing) that ET often seemed to be more about ET than King Crimson. To me, this seems to be obvious. When each of us write, speak, or act we expose ourselves along with our opinions. Whether or not we intend to, we are at least partially transparent. And in these moments we reveal where we fall into the above system. < EQ> I agree that it is obvious. The question is whether or not it is as big a problem as Fripp seems to indicate. I think the fact is that only in the rarest of instances do we can we come into contact with that which is truly other than what we already are, and perhaps this is only done in silence. The best we can hope for most of the time is that we 1) realize that what we say about others extends directly from a deep feeling about who we are; and 2) if we do say something, let it come directly out of the little experience we have, from the authority that our experiences give us. Maybe the basement dweller cannot describe the garden, but if he understands that his experience is limited to the basement, then he is a wise man in his way (and who knows? Maybe we'll need someone who knows that basement well someday). Too often we (and I include myself) will extend our tiny area of authority so that it covers the entire world. "I don't need facts or experience: my philosophy is strong enough as it is." No doubt ET would be much stronger if we spoke from just where we're at: but it might not be as fun! It would sure be shorter, however. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:42:47 -0400 From: "Matthew S. Mueller" Subject: Long Love the Crimson King! "Eric Anderson" wisely wrote in ET#548: >Please read the following excerpt from Robert Fripp's DGM Diary: YES! Very well said! Seeing what Robert wrote in the DGM sight was truly frightening. By bringing the audience closer to his music, that very audience may be theatening the music's existence! The saddest thing of all: I'm part of the problem! My past writing to ET was based on personal biases and preferences and was not informed, nor open minded. One of the great things about the Great Crim is it's unpredictability. Robert may have a direction he envisions for the band, but, put Ade, Pat, Tony, Trey, Billy and Bob in a rehearsal space,say "GO!" and, who knows what will happen? If there is a KC99, it could be something far different (and far greater) than anyone could have imagined! Who knows??? How many bands can have THAT said about them? Far too few. When we hear that Aerosmith is getting back into the studio, we know pretty much exactly what their new album is gonna sound like ... their previous album. While I still may have personal biases against electronic "stuff", that's only part of the overall musical picture and should not affect my, or the audience's, view of the Greater Crim. To me, Mr Fripp's playing on the very first track of "Space Groove" really sounds better than ever (IMO). When he is using the more "classic" distorted guitar sound for his solos, he appears to be conentrating on using very fast runs in almost a jazz style -- not something I'm used to. Throughout both discs, Mr. Fripp's playing is EXTREMELY emotive, often in new and unique sounding ways. Also, Adrian's drumming on the Space Grooves is excellent -- it's hard to make an electric kit sound THAT close to a real one. I don't know how "spacey" the first disc is, but, hey, it sure as hell GROOVES! This all excites me and makes me want to hear what's coming next. So, here we have a band that is unpredictable. And here we have band members that are experimenting, playing better than ever, grooving and trying to push music in new and exciting directions. Not too shabby! And the best thing of ALL: All of this projeKcting means that we have more new music being released in a short period of time than ever before! More bang for the buck! Sure as hell beats waiting two years for a new release, like most bands! And DEFINITELY beats waiting 10 years! Just a few words of encouragement. Humbly yours, Matt Mueller -- slightly clueless, and DEIFINITELY slack! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:31:41 -0700 From: "Heilbronner, Mike (I)" Subject: Distortions, Diatribes and the Unknown v Future Posted to the DGM Guestbook in response to RF's comments regarding the creative process, "democratic" principles in the music industry and his interpretation of the views expressed on ET: Robert: > The views expressed in ET do not necessarily reflect the views of a > majority of the KC audience. Thousands of opinions are NOT expressed in > ET. Obviously, one might argue that the expressed views are a > representative sample of > the greater whole. While I cannot dismiss that possibility, I do not > accept it. The proliferation and relative anonymity of the Internet has > enabled -- and more importantly encouraged -- vocal minorities to speak > with disproportionate volume and intensity. The fact that they have a > forum to speak, however, does not mean their views are representative, > nor should they be influential. If you really believe that democratic principles operate in the marketplace of the "industry of music," perhaps you should give higher consideration to the ways in which the greater KC audience has "voted with its dollars" (paraphrasing you). If "democratic" marketplace factors are at work, record sales are a more accurate indicator of the views of the greater Crim audience than ill-considered and hastily written opinions posted on the Internet. In other words, you as King of DGM know whether the audience has cast its vote in favor of modern KC and related material. Was Thrakattack successful? How about Space Groove? Likewise, sales of Live Groove and the ProjeKCt One release will serve as a good barometer of the views of the greater Crim audience. Two additional (and more important) issues warrant discussion: (i) why would you concern yourself with the perceived desires of your audience; and (ii) if you decide to make decisions based on the views of an audience, why the views of the current/past audiences, rather than those of the FUTURE audience? (i) You hold yourself out as an artist who attempts to follow his muse, so it is surprising that you would make artistic, creative and business decisions based on your perception of an arbitrarily defined "majority" view. Why do you care what the audience thinks? Do you feel any obligation (to yourself if not to others) to do what is artistically true and let the audience "vote" as it deems appropriate? Perhaps this is why you allow for the possibility of opting out altogether (i.e, what is artistically true is not feasible and/or desired, therefore I will do nothing). But if all artists either opted out or deferred to the perceived desires of their audience (assuming arguendo the perception is accurate), the legacy of art (music, literature, etc.) and the social and political history of the world would be very different from the rich history we have enjoyed. For you, me and many others, KC has been an integral component of that rich history. The important issue for the present is how you and KC will fit into the artistic "history" that will occur in the future. (ii) In light of your open-minded view of the future and the unknown possibilities for future creative endeavors, it seems odd that you would make artistic and business decisions based on the perceived views of your current and/or past audiences. What about the FUTURE audience? If you're concerned about an audience's view, shouldn't your ideas and decisions about the future be based on your future audience? Obviously, you do not know who your future audience is, nor can you identify their preferences. But isn't that the catalyst for the creative process? Indeed, by definition, an artist can only have a "future audience" in mind when he plays/writes his first note (or draws the first line, writes the first word, etc.). Who will you have in mind when you (hopefully) write and play your next note? Thanks for your time and consideration. Mike Heilbronner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:16:03 -0400 From: David Todd Subject: Re: Adrian's drumming ONE: While I'm not defending The projeKct 2 CD, Adrian's skills as a drummer are excellent, as demonstrated on a number of his solo albums. So if you must talk about the quality of his playing on an album, confine it to that album. And to paraphrase an old post from Adrian, If you think you can do better, let's see it. :-) Keep in mind, Adrian was trying everything. It was an experiment. That it came across badly is perhaps unfortunate; on the other hand many folks liked it. To each his own taste. Another ONE: In the past, Fripp has stated his desire for "your burning questions". On the other hand, He's stated that he has no desire to re-answer old stale questions like "Have you ever thought of doing a reunion tour" etc. So what are the burning questions? I'd suggest the criteria be that they should be about he present and future. In other words, if your question is about bring the past forward, it's probably not as interesting to Fripp. Here's a short list of my burning questions for that Fripp: 1. How do you go about creating music, describe your process? 2. How do you go about experimenting with new equipment? Is it random, scientific, what? 3. Is there anything you specificly do when you want to "contact the muse"? 4. What level of communication do you aim for when talking about the current music with the other folks in the project? Do you ask for specific things, or conversely only suggest that they not do a certain thing (i.e. "no hi hat"), or a combination of these things? -- Hacksaw = David Charles Todd GTEI-BBNT = Hacksaw's Employer Hacksaw's Opinions != GTEI-BBNT's Opinions Linux understands you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:00:15 -0400 From: Douglas Otte Subject: Frippless KC I've been regularly reading Fripp's diary postings in the DGM website for a while now. I'm upset about his recent posts after his disappoint with the P4 rehearsals. Since he's explicitly stated that we should post to DGM with only business-related mail, I'm addressing this note as an open letter to Fripp and all subscribers to ET. For at least the past few months, Fripp has been enticing us with tidbits about the possible direction the next KC will take. I enjoyed a bit of the P2 performance at the 9:30 club, but took most of it in its intended spirit - R&D for the next Krim. Sometimes this R&D works; sometimes it doesn't. Through all this, though, I've been getting excited about what the future might bring. I realize that having access to his diary provides a wonderful insight into Fripp, and his thoughts were not necessarily intended as specific plans. I can also empathize with Fripp's frustration with the music business, fandom, and humanity in general. However, his recent posts announcing that he's again turning his back on KC has angered me. What a coincidence that, at the same time he was frustrated with his new musical ideas flopping in rehearsal, he also has become unbearably disgusted with us fans who express a preference for the old KC material. How easy it is to simply walk away from it all. KC has a rich history. Some of it was grand, some banal. Six years after Fripp disbanded the '74 KC, he reformed it with a completely different sound and approach. If the whole idea was so different, why call it KC at all? One could easily think that this was a mere marketing ploy to sell records using an established name. Any why not? Fripp was bold enough to take us all on a new musical journey, so why not use the old name to help get the music to us? Now, although he wishes to take us in another new direction, the weight of the history of KC has apparently become too much. I agree with Adrian that a KC without Fripp would not be appealing. Because, regardless of the immense contributions by other members over the years, Fripp has been the heart of these units. What has been intriguing is that, despite this, Fripp's solo efforts have been somewhat lacking to me. I enjoy them, but I enjoy much more the spark that is often created in a KC environment with Fripp and others. If the yearning by fans for old material is so disheartening, why has Fripp spent so much time and effort in recent months putting together the DGM Collector's Club? Many of us love this archival material (I'm a member), but we also love the new music. We'd become concerned that he may have been spending too much time in nostalgia, at the expense of new directions. Despite this, I was glad that he had stopped turning his back on the KC history, and he seemed to reminisce and enjoy putting the recordings together. I would stand up for Fripp's right, as a human, an artist, and a searching intellect, to do whatever he wishes with his craft. Mr. Fripp, if the desire is in you still to create music, ignore us average folk and do what your muse tells you to do. If that means creating new music without the KC name, fine. Think back to 1980 and have the courage to do something bold, but why not be business-savvy enough to use KC to get that music across to a potentially broader audience than another name would do? I think I speak for most of us in saying that we're with you wherever you go. You have challenged us many times. If you truly don't have the heart to continue with the business of making music, that's fine. But what does that leave you - selling the archival material to the fans you so despise? -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: What Do Crimson fans want? After zooming through the last issue of ET, I find I have only one thing to say. There have been so many groups that have been undecisive at one point or another. Bands have tried to experiment from what they have done before. Some have succeeded; some have failed. If one sits and worries about "what the fans want," so many albums would never been recorded. For example, if Robert had stopped to think about "what the fans would think" if King Crimson was resurrected, playing music very different from whence they came, odds are that the band would not have gotten very far. I started listening to King Crimson in 1990, first listening to _Discipline_ and then getting earlier albums. I didn't think to myself when listening to King Crimson "this is not what King Crimson music should be about." As a listener, and then later a fan, I do not impose my opinions on what the musicians can or should do. I don't call out songs at shows. I listen, applaud, and wait for the next song. If I'm disappointed that I didn't do a song I expected, that's just the luck of the draw, unless the show is going to be all the albums strung together live. I'd think I'd like to speak for many of the readers of ET when I say: What do the fans want? What do the fans really want? We want King Crimson to play what they _want_ to play. Don't second-guess "what the fans want." Be true to what YOU want. And if you are true to what you believe in, the fans will be there. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:18:05 -0400 From: John Wylam Subject: A quick response Hi, Folks, In considering the thread of Fripp's remarks concerning the future of KC, I was reminded of the emotional situation in which many of us found ourselves in '73/4; the then-current lineup was nothing if not a sign that things were going to be different, that we weren't going to hear a reacapitulation. Personally, I was thrilled by the idea of the new, the risk we were going to witness on the '73 tour of America, and how this chemistry would develop in '74. Not knowing what would happen was in itself a significant thrill. Personally, it didn't matter whether KC played music from four or five years before; the *new* was much more important. For Fripp, it seems that the desire to push forward is every bit as strong as it was then. What's changed is the audience -- are we more conservative now, less willing to accept change? I'd like to think not. I honestly believe KC is something unique in contemporary music; how many bands of such long standing can claim such fluidity? Such a willingness to take aesthetic risks in the name of art? Just an opinion, folks -- but I agree with those who are arguing in favor of the idea that we need to support this process, rather than applying reductive standards. As much as I love the previous music (seeing the '74 band playing "Starless" at Curtis Hixon Convention Center in Tampa was a truly powerful experience), I also looked forward to the double trio with a sense of anticipation that I hadn't felt in a long time -- precisely because it represented new possibilities. The band's inclusion of older material, however appealing, was finally secondary to the developmental potential of the six-piece band. We needn't let go of happy memories. Far from it. But we need to remember what we love about the *idea* of KC, the notion of music as creative process, therefore developing, ongoing. Let's dare to encourage. John Wylam Creative Writing Program Dept. of English East Bowling Green State University Bowling Green, OH 43403 Ph: (419) 372-0591 e-mail: wylam at bgnet dot bgsu dot edu, or John Wylam at aol dot com Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible. -- Frank Zappa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:50:48 -0700 From: "Jon Green" Subject: League of the Lizard, Sinfield, Fibonacci, Rupert's Tears Re CURUGROTH at aol dot com Greg Karl's message of Fri, 9 Oct 1998, A 15th c. Ruprecht and a League of the Lizard: A very obscure but interesting reference, if it's accurate. There was an order of Spanish knights whose emblem was referred to as a lizard, but I can't find anything about a League of the Lizard. Certainly, based on the most obvious evidence, Sinfield's Rupert is something of a composite character. Rupert's Tears could only refer to the 17th century Prince Rupert and the back cover illustration depicting Teutonic Knights fighting Mongols could only refer to the 1241 Battle of Liegnitz which occured during the reign of Frederick II. Sinfield's allegories, indoor games and the jester: Yes. I agree the piece is allegorical, but representing what? Via private e-mail, I can offer some pretty compelling evidence as to the specific alchemical and historical allegories in Lizard. Indoor games: By this I assume you mean that Sinfield's lyrics are self referential or refer to the band. This is an intriguing idea. Does this mean the purple piper is McDonald? Who is the pattern juggler, the fire witch etc.? Considering Sinfield wrote the lyrics, why would he characterize himself as a yellow (cowardly) jester who manipulated others? I certainly hope the Great Deceiver is not about Sinfield, who strikes me as a gentle soul. If Peter Sinfield did choose the name "Rupert" to pull a little joke on Robert, I imagine it was not meant to hurt anyone. And why would Palmer-James agree to write such damning words about a man with whom he had little, if any, direct involvement? Re tout at arch dot curtin dot edu dot au Errol Tout's message of Fri, 9 Oct 1998, ...Golden Mean Proportions, Fibonacci Numbers, Harmonic Proportions: Fibonacci was a friend of emperor Frederick II who incorporated the Golden Mean and Fibonacci's numbers into the design of his Castel del Monte. BTW, I happen to think Frederick II is the historical counterpart to Sinfield's Crimson King. I will e-mail to you the whole story if you like. Here's a pertinent link or two: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3791319302/atlantisenterpri/002-94305 23-2710804 http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~joe/castel/castel.html http://www.lambdoma.com/Glimpses2.html Re D. Chinn's message of Mon, 12 Oct 1998, "Lizard" - Prince Rupert's tears explored: Thank you for an insightful analysis. Following are my thoughts, excerpted from a much longer text exploring all of the Sinfield albums: Rupert's (Frederick II's) tears are glass because they are not human tears. Because he considers himself godlike and above mere human concerns, his anguish is not closely related to the human suffering taking place in this situation. Additionally, Prince Rupert's Tears were a technological innovation created by fire. (Lizard is the Fire album, In the Court is the Air album, Poseidon theWater album and Islands the Earth album.) Fire represents technology (Prometheus) and, as such, Frederick's tears are of purely cerebral origin and, like him, they have been hardened in the fire. Nevertheless, some of his intentions are admirable as he is genuinely interested in a unification of east and west (Moslem and Christian), and a more liberal exchange of ideas, major themes of his life. If someone shed literal glass tears it would cause the individual to bleed, but, again, we are dealing with the symbolic implications of the idea. His tears cause him harm, as does his principled stand against the Catholic Church. - Jon Green ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:27:16 +0000 From: chriss at glass dot co dot uk Subject: Guestbook chez DGM Visiting the DGM site, as I assume many of us do, and reading the entries there I can't help but feel a little alarmed. Ladies and gentlemen, please! This is a guestbook, and we are guests! The only one allowed to piss on the carpet is the rabbit, and then only in extremis. I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel a sense of panic when looking at messages that seem drafted out in Crayola, or lengthy essays on I'm not quite sure what. We should offer a little restraint, or expect the defaced book to be taken away. And as for everyone's idea of the Ideal Crimson: I always felt there was a link between RF's long composed instrumentals and some of the works of Barry White, a certain underlying sexual tension. I refer the curious to the album version of Mr. White's 'It's Only Love' and suggest the ardent striving for resolution in the closing four minutes should be compared/contrasted with the middle section of Fracture. I think the next Crimson should be a joint venture with the Love Unlimited Orchestra, and I know I'm not going to get it. So why should you lot get what you want? Even someone who's Shameless Marketing Weaselhood stands unquestioned seems very reluctant to poll the mob in order to decide what to do next. The only information he does get is the terrible clamoring which is most likely going to make him chose to stay indoors. I think we'll all have to button up a little and learn to live with disappointment and surprise. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 06:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Schroeder Subject: Future Crimson Crimheads, I would not count on KC continuing as they have in the past, judging by the posts on DGM. Who really cares if they don't put out another new record? Who cares if Bill B. isn't on the record or live gigs? Why is everyone getting bent about "V-Drums"? Face it. Everything in the world of music is temporary! Most of the guys in the band are 50 (or very near) and I can't see bumping around airports and riding endlessly in a van to play a gig in some dive being very rewarding, when they have ALREADY DONE IT A THOUSAND TIMES. It is not the end of the world if KC breaks up. Their music will always be there, albeit in CD format, so whatever happens to King Crimson will be fine either way. They have already made their mark. Independent artists will always struggle in the business of music. If you are an aspiring musician, learn another craft so you won't have to depend on music to make a living! SUPPORT MUSICIANS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN MAKING MUSIC-NOT FAME OR FORTUNE! Just a reminder before you buy the next Marilyn Manson record! Pat S. pgs64 at yahoo dot com PS WEB http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/3290/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:23:35 -0700 From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: E-T I've defended E-T in the past. But if circumstances (be they silly in my opinion or not) are causing the newsletter to damage the process of putting together music we all venerate, should the newsletter continue? Eric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:58:54 -0400 (EDT) From: nmates at sas dot upenn dot edu (Neal Mates) Subject: Where is Fripp playing in Philly? I recently went over to the Painted Bride in Center City Philadelphia to see when the tickets would be going on sale for Fripp's shows there in late November. The lady at the box office told me that several people have called up about this before, and she told them all the same thing... he wasn't playing there. Apparently there never was any plan for him to play there. There was no information available from New Park Entertainment, the promoter that handles the relatively bigger shows that come through the Bride, like John Gorka and Sun Volt. Has the show been scrapped entirely or will he be playing a venue like the Keswick Theater in Glenside, or at the TLA or the Ballroom at the Bellvue downtown? The downtown venues are wonderful and a lot more convenient than a trek out to Glenside, which is pretty rough when you don't drive. Any updated info (or a ride if he does winds up playing at the Keswick) would be greatly appreciated. ***************************************************** * "ASPERVM AESTIMARE FIMI ALIQVID HODIE" - LOV REED * ***************************************************** Neal Mates nmates at sas dot upenn dot edu http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~nmates ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #549 ********************************