Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #548 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 548 Wednesday, 14 October 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Long posts -- some restraint please NEWS: California Guitar Trio and Tony Geballe - Southwest Tour 98 NEWS: FAQ, Archives, Tour Dates and CD Reviews NEWS: Crimson DVD announced NEWS: King Crimson on DVD - Deja Vrooom GIG BIZ: Seattle P4 tix for sale / trade for Portland tix Tri-drums, etc Reality check A reflection on ET by way of Gurdjieff and Bennett. Spontaneous combustion G.Guillot's dissertation on BB & KC, issue #543 Found: Young Person's Guide to King Crimson An obscure '60s TV program... LIVE 1969 Rilke mit frippiger Untermalung Re: KC on Letterman '95....not Getting rid of vinyl WTB: FFWD on CD RE: future BLUE tour query Bruford Vs Mastelotto = No winner... King Ferry! AB: high mean, high variance Subject lines; Eeek; Mike Giles; Tony Oliva KC on Conan, not Letterman Re: Wakeman Anticipated by ... IRC Chat McCartney on music My purple perspeKCtives Hair Mastellotto The Crimson we want...(What it is, what it never will be) Bruford "Lizard" - Prince Rupert's tears explored live recordings Wishful thinking and expectations The Death of the Crimson King The Bottom Line! The Enigmatic Bruford Debate DGM Page - Fripp's Thoughts Fripp-less Crimson Anagrams of DGM Inc. Fripp's at the crossroads ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.htm You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Weds 14 Oct, 7.48pm From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: Long posts -- some restraint please To those Earnest Young Men/Women who make l-o-o-n-g posts to ET (you know who you are): beware. In future, very lengthy posts will be filed at the *bottom* end of ET. My feeling from the private feedback I get from ETers is that long posts -- and I mean *long* -- are generally not much fun. Please, if you're halfway through a massive missive, think about exercising some restraint. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 21:49:08 -0600 From: Jon Lybrook Subject: NEWS: California Guitar Trio and Tony Geballe - Southwest Tour 98 Hi All, The CGT and Tony Geballe will be having another tour - this time of the Southwest U.S. to promote their newest albums, "Pathways" and "Native of the Rain" respectively. Below is an outline of their itinerary. More details will be available as they develop on the Yamanashi News page on the CGT Website: http://www.cgtrio.com/yamanews.htm Check this page frequently for up to date CGT News and Event Information! For those of you who enjoyed the CGT ROAD CAM from the groups West Coast Tour, rest assured, the CGT ROAD CAM will continue to keep you in touch with the California Guitar Trio's adventures on and off the road. Point your favorite browser to http://www.cgtrio.com/yamanews.htm#roadcam to see what you've been missing! Best regards, Jon CGT Web ~^*~^*^~*~^*~^^*~^~*~^~^*^~*~^*^~*^~~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^*~^~^*^~*^~*^~*~^*~^ The following dates are still tentative and subject to change. See the California Guitar Trio's *Yamanashi News Page* at http://www.cgtrio.com/yamanews.htm#toursched for up to the minute tour infomation. California Guitar Trio and Tony Geballe - Southwest Tour 98 Date Day City Time & Venue Oct. 29 Thu Provo, UT Borders Books and Music, 7:30pm Oct. 30 Fri Salt Lake City SLC Community College opening for Andreas Vollenweider Oct. 31 Sat Travel Day Nov. 1 Sun Phoenix Borders - Glendale 2:00pm; Mesa 6:00pm Nov. 2 Mon Phoenix The Mason Jar Nov. 3 Tue Travel Day Nov. 4 Wed Santa Fe, NM Borders, 7:30pm Nov. 5 Thu Albuquerque, NM Borders, 7:30 pm Nov. 6 Fri Santa Fe, NM TBA Nov. 7 Sat Santa Fe, NM Greer Garson Theater, College of Santa Fe Nov. 8 Sun Travel Day Nov. 9 Mon Oklahoma City Borders, 7:30 pm Nov. 10 Tue Oklahoma City TBA Nov. 11 Wed Dallas/ Ft. Worth TBA Nov. 12 Thu Dallas/ Ft. Worth Borders, 7:00 pm Nov. 13 Fri Dallas/ Ft. Worth Borders, 7:00 pm Nov. 14 Sat Austin Borders, 7:00 pm Nov. 15 Sun Austin TBA Nov. 16 Mon San Antonio Borders, 7:00pm Nov. 17 Tue San Antonio Borders, 7:00pm Nov. 18 Wed Houston Cactus Cafe Nov. 19 Thu Houston TBA Nov. 20 Fri Houston Borders, 8:00 pm Nov. 21 Sat Houston TBA Nov. 22 Sun End of Tour ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 00:04:13 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: FAQ, Archives, Tour Dates and CD Reviews ETers, It would seem that many of you might be unaware of some of the things ET Web offers in support of this here newsletter, so let me invite those that haven't been to the site to pay it a visit at http://www.elephant-talk.com/, and highlight a few sections in particular: - The ET FAQ, now maintained by Steven Sthole, should be one of the first stops for the ET newbie. Please try to look for information in the FAQ before asking a question to the newsletter's subscribers. Also consider reading the ET Help! file. - The newsletter archives exist in two places. Mike Stok maintains a searchable archive that could also be a source of information. After 500 plus digests some questions come up over and over again, and if they aren't yet in the FAQ, searching the archives may find you an answer. - People often clamor that they never saw any tour date announcements. Well, in an effort to provide a central source of info about Crim related touring, an up to date listing of tour dates can always be found at ET Web. Make sure you look there. Also consider checking our sources (although we're happy to do that legwork for you): DGM (http://www.discipline.co.uk/), Tony Levin's site (http://papabear.com/), Adrian Belew's site (http://www.murple.com/adrianbelew/), Trey Gunn's site (http://www.treygunn.com/), John Wetton's site (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/8099/wetton.html), and The Artist Shop (http://www.artist-shop.com/). Even checking the Ticketmaster site will help. We don't want people missing out on shows not announced in the newsletter, or announced in an issue you miss. - Finally, my brother mentioned that the Amazon.com site now stocks CDs and like it has been possible for books, people can submit reviews for CDs. I know many ETers are interested in what others think about King Crimson releases or Fripp related projects, and for a few years we've been collecting ETer reviews of these releases, good or bad, on the ET Web Releases pages. For non-Fripp Crim alumni releases you should go to Henry Andrews "King Crimson Alumni Discography Project" web site (http://www.concentric.net/~Handrews/music/crimsolo/). Anyway, that's my little ET Web plug. Now back to our determined and dopey drivel - these are words with a 'D' this time. ;^) Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:01:29 -0500 (CDT) From: vince Subject: NEWS: Crimson DVD announced http://www.dvdfile.com/news/archives/press_releases/kingcrimson.htm The release says the audio is DTS-encoded. This ought to sell to alot of Crimson neophytes, as DVD'ers have been waiting for DTS-encoded software for a while. I've got the laser but now I MUST own the dvd. Cool features. Good work DGM! vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:24:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel K Hildebrand Subject: NEWS: King Crimson on DVD - Deja Vrooom I just read this on an excellent DVD website - The DVD File. Sounds terrific. - Daniel Hildebrand dkhst8 at pitt dot edu Discipline Global Mobile And Kao Infosystems Produce World's First User-Tailored Musical Experience On DVD For King Crimson Robert Fripp announces the King Crimson DVD release, Deja VROOOM, due out on his Discipline Global Mobile label on November 3, keeping with King Crimson's tradition of using new technologies. Designed in conjunction with KAO Infosystems, the DVD will be the world's first user-tailored musical experience on DVD. The DVD will feature re-edited concert footage from two Tokyo, Japan performances of the 90's line-up of King Crimson. Most of the material is previously unreleased. "DVD will revolutionize home entertainment," says Fripp. "Remember life before T.V.?" Unlike any other DVD release available, the hybrid DVD-10 disc will incorporate elements on both the DVD-Video and DVD-ROM portion of the disc. The Video portion willfeature the re-edited concert with two audio streams, one stereo and one 5.1 surround. Selected songs will feature additional angles. For one song, "VROOOM VROOOM," the viewer will be able to pick up a view of either Adrian Belew, Bill Bruford, Robert Fripp, Trey Gunn, Tony Levin or Pat Mastelotto. The selected musician will appear on the screen and his musical part will be featured in the center speaker of the surround sound system.For this one track, the viewer is furnished with seven different video angles, one for each musician, as well as the main edited angle. Additionally, "VROOOM VROOOM" will provide eight audio streams (the maximum capacity for DVD); six highlighting each musician in a 5.1 surround mix, one default 5.1 surround mix, and one stereo mix. Apart from the standard Dolby Digital 2.0 soundtrack, this disc also features a high-resolution 5.1 channel DTS Digital Surround soundtrack. DTS is the leading supplier of 5.1 digital soundtracks to the motion picture industry, and is now available for multi-channel music concerts on compact disc and DVD. While all DTS-encoded DVDs will play in two-channel stereo on any DVD player, the 5.1 soundtrack requires the use of a 5.1 digital playback system that includes a DTS-compatable DVD player. Virtually all of the new players on the market have this feature built in, and the end result is a stunning audio presentation in terms of sonic clarity, dynamic range and 5.1 channel separation. (For further information on the DTS system, contact Marketing Director David DelGrosso at 818-706-3525, ext. 320). Other unique features on the video portion of the disc include, "Tony's Road Movies," a series of clips of the band on the road, photographed by Levin. The viewer may also explore the history of King Crimson in "In The Court Of King Crimson." Biased playback and auto angle shuffling will be available as alternative viewing options. In addition, Lisa Mattei, Producer/Editor for the project, has included surprises into the menu structure for the player to discover, such as a previously unseen Fripp solo performance videotaped during the Tokyo dates. "The audience needs to know that although they may sit back and enjoy the full-length concert performance, there are many complex levels of interactivity within the title which have never been available before on DVD," stated Mattei. "Deja VROOOM challenges the limitations of the medium from which the moment was observed, and forces a fundamental paradigm shift in how we interact with media, in essence redefining 'point of view'." The Hybrid capabilities of the disc are featured by an interactive musical "game," where the player may choose their own version of "21st Century Schizoid Man" by choosing a rhythm section, vocal track, and soloist from any of the various incarnations of King Crimson. The game takes live performances from 1969, 1971, 1973 and 1995, and time-compresses and transfers them so that, for example, the player can hear Adrian Belew (live in 1995) and Mel Collins (live in 1971) playing over Robert Fripp, John Wetton and Bill Bruford (live in 1973). Unique ROM features for the DVD include website links and a collection of text documents written by Robert Fripp. "We are very thrilled to work with King Crimson, a band known for residing at the forefront of musical expression and technology," said Mattei. "David Singleton (of DGM) and I wanted to come up with a project which would grab hold of the DVD spec, and allow us to explore available options to compliment the band's unique position within the music industry. We are all very excited and proud at how the title is coming along, and feel that it will be a breakthrough title for DVD." SOURCE: Discipline Global Mobile ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:45:47 -0400 From: Taylor Subject: GIG BIZ: Seattle P4 tix for sale / trade for Portland tix Hi. I stupidly bought two tickets to the 10/28 P4 show at the Fenix in Seattle, when I'll be out of town that night. So I'm planning on going instead to the 10/30 Portland show. Soo. . .if anyone would like to trade me two Portland tix for two Seattle tix, that would be wonderful. Other than that, I'll sell 'em to someone for face value (ie I eat the stupid Ticketmaster service charge I paid. . .). Thanks! Taylor Sherman p.s. please send replies to me, not ET. Thanx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:58:39 EDT From: Boobird at aol dot com Subject: Tri-drums, etc Dear Folks, Just some thoughts on everyone else's latest ruminations: a) According to Robert, none of his prepared ideas for P4 were "the right stuff." Thankfully, all is right with the world... b) I will show my ignorance of musical history by remarking "three drums simultaneously? how novel!" In the vast cloud of unknown, unplayed music known as King Crimson, some tri-drum music undoubtedly exists. Now who would play "melody" and who would play "harmony"? Would an extra player (three drums + guitar, bass, stick, whatever) be needed to provide one of those components? I can see possibly Adrian on V-drum lead, Bill on acoustic set, and Pat providing an almost Jamie Muir-like role (complete with blood capsules and chains...). c) Nice to know that Adrian picked up the V-drums in only a day or so. I hope as time goes by he can program some "feel" (or some other vague terminology) into his drum work; eight minutes into Space Groove II and I'm in need of aspirin... Perhaps some help from Pat or Bill? d) For the poor person who has to explain "Ladies of the Road" to their 5-year old, here goes: "two-fingered Levi'd sister" - a woman wearing blue jeans giving the "PEACE" sign "I smiled and just unzipped her" - as close to a description of rape as you will ever hear in a King Crimson song e) Eb, you're as cruel as ever ;-) keep it up... Mark np: Goin' Places (The Kingston Trio) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:38:00 EDT From: ErneMar at aol dot com Subject: Reality check Some of you are going to hate me for this but somebody's gotta do it, so here it goes: 1) To anyone who's ever challenged the roles of Pat M, Adrian Belew, or anyone else in Crimson: Guess what? They're in the band and you're not. End of discussion. 2) To everyone whining about Bruford's possible departure from Crimson: Guess what? IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! GET OVER IT! 3) To everyone who wishes Bruford would re-join that pathetic group of "has- beens" who go by the name of Yes, here's a big reality check: Jon Anderson can't sing anymore (just watch their performance on "Hard Rock Live" on VH-1), Steve Howe needs an extra guitarist because he can't play Trevor Rabin's parts, and who the hell is that guy behind the keyboards!? Maybe next year they can tour with Foghat and BTO... Ernie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 15:33:25 -0400 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: A reflection on ET by way of Gurdjieff and Bennett. Hi Crimpersons, In 1973, J.G. Bennett summarized Gurdjieff's "Harmonious Development of Man" in his book "Gurdjieff: Making a New World". Though there are 7 developmental stages of Man, only three are usually encountered. They are: Man Number One: "Men and Women dominated by the physical body are called men or women number one. *** He may be intelligent and interested in ideas; but when his behaviour is carefully observed, it can be seen that he is dominated by material considerations. *** He is insensitive to the feelings of others and has not even much feeling for himself." Man Number Two: "They are people who have strong feelings; whether or not they have strong bodies, it is the feelings that predominate. *** His likes and dislikes are flamboyant, his enthusiasms irrational, his hopes and fears unrelated to the facts of the world. *** He can feel for others, but only insofar as he is himself involved." Man Number Three: They "are those whose thinking part predominates. They live by theory or assess everything in terms of yes and no, agreement and disagreement. These are the logical people whose minds dominate their bodies and their feelings." Bennett then writes, "According to Gurdjieff, all the people that we are likely to meet belong to one of these three categories. *** So long as there is lack of balance between the three sides of man's nature, his further development is bound to be lopsided. "One of the characteristics of man number four, is that there is balance between his body, his feelings and his thoughts". *** Man number four has made the first strivings towards liberation from his own egoism. He sees where he has to go, and he is prepared to make the sacrifices necessary in order to reach his goal." To me, ET is an example of these principles. We each write in and in our own way expose ourselves. The last few weeks have been a particularly keen example of how much people can say about themselves without trying. There has been attacks on Crim members (I believe that only T-Lev has escaped the recent crossfire), and attacks on ET-ers. There have been defenses of both, also. And there has been much kvetching about the band's direction and constitution, with other posts that look ahead to the future. Many posters, though, have revealed parts of themselves in the process, also. A number of weeks ago a few people got upset at Fripp for commenting (I am paraphrasing) that ET often seemed to be more about ET than King Crimson. To me, this seems to be obvious. When each of us write, speak, or act we expose ourselves along with our opinions. Whether or not we intend to, we are at least partially transparent. And in these moments we reveal where we fall into the above system. I make note of this to my fellow ET-ers just as a reflection. Naturally, by posting this, I reveal myself. I reveal that I regard these teachings as worthwhile, and I probably also reveal that I am still a novice in the teachings. I think that when I write I show that I am woman number three, which is to my detriment. But becoming aware gives me the opportunity to strive and learn. I am not trying to implicate anyone specifically. If you see yourself in the above, feel free to attack. I also welcome any comments by private email. Peace, Kathryn Ottersten "They come better looking, but they don't come mannered." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:57:09 +0200 From: "Sven-Erik Dymne" Subject: Spontaneous combustion Hello you Crimson and Frippfans! I have the single "Sabre dance" With Spontaneous combustion, It is Robert Fripp playing the guitar, If you are interested in buying it, send your offer to me. sven-erik dot dymne at utbildning dot halmstad dot se ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:52:54 -0400 From: C Gribbin Subject: G.Guillot's dissertation on BB & KC, issue #543 I understand that Robert occaisionally peruses these pages as a gauge of sentiment regarding tracks to include in re-issues, periods to re-issue, etc., - perhaps also to measure sentiments regarding future directions? In this case, I must express my near complete agreement regarding Greg Guillot's analysis of Bill's place in KC, and the extent to which that "way of doing things" that we've all come to recognize as the sign that KC is here has become almost as much a product of Bill's creative being as it is of Robert's. No, I don't think the projeKCts are KC (damn good though!), and I don't believe that any of the other band members (obviously other than Robert) have become as much a part of the soul of what KC is as Bill has. And it seems to me that that's just the way it is. I agree wholeheartedly that the creative tension between Bill and Robert drives KC and that something would be seriously lacking without this. And a live KC without Bill's big smile and obvious exaltation in the joy of playing KC would be lacking as well. I can't say I've enjoyed Bill's solo releases as much as his work with KC, including his collaboration with Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez (much to my disappointment....I mean, it was good, but with that lineup....I had greater expectations). I hope the only choice doesn't come down to hearing Bill with a warmed over Yes or doing without the joy that Bill's sounds bring to the heart. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 17:46:17 -0400 From: Irissky Subject: Found: Young Person's Guide to King Crimson Found local to me on vinyl. I have it already, so let me know if someone wants me to pick it up for you. I'll don't know if the booklet is present or not. Randy ralley at mindspring dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:42:28 EDT From: Bknt at aol dot com Subject: An obscure '60s TV program... Dear Team: As I was exploring possible archive releases that could alter our perceptions of the music industry, I came across this obscure recording of a television program that, to my knowledge, was never finished. I present this fragment for enthusiasts of the Correctors Club, so that we may understand what might have been. The Frissoner Close-up of confused guitarist initiating short-person-behavior while he awakes and stumbles for his breakfast cup. Guitarist: "Where am I?" Wheezing voice: "In the music business." Git: "Who are you?" WV: "The new Number Two World Wide Media Conglomerate." Git: "Who is Number One?" WV: "A mouse with ears." Git: "What do you want?" WV: "Production. We want production." Git: "You won't get it." WV: "By crook or by hook, we will. We want...production." Git: "You'll excuse me but at this portion of the program it is a great--dare I say--magnanimous custom of the assembled or perhaps disassembling individuals otherwise known as King Crimson to bless upon the eagerly attentive audience for which we are so delighted to be performing in this palace of wretched conformity a moment in which the guitarist foists upon the listener his otherwise disagreeable tendency to be speak at length about the exigencies of conducting himself in a context of poverty, exploitation, greed, theft, depravity and montony bereft of sarcasm so that music can come into the world--" WV: "Must you be difficult?" Git: "If our hands know where our heart is going, then we can get where where we already are, if we can handle it." WV: "Must you be obtuse?" Git: "If you don't think that this is for you, then we don't think it is for you and you aren't for us and unless you use V-Drums then perhaps this shouldn't be for you and I am thus returning your cheque for--" WV: "Must you be tedious?" Git: "In order to postpone the inevitablity of historical expectation, yes." WV: "Yes? We dropped them. We want production. Production. Production." Git: "I am not a producer! I am a way of doing things. I am bridge between necessity and sufficiency. I am a manner in which music may come into a hostile world. I am a mobile intelligent unit thinking on its feet when not spitting at someone else's. I am doing the hardest thing simply. I am simply doing. I am...I am...I am...." WV: "Be whoever you wish, but just let us put your name on the package. The name Jimmy Page means so much to so many." Git: "But I'm not--. I live in a house that was once in habited by a famous homosexual society photographer. I keep a pet rabit. I'm married to an actress who does not remove her clothes on camera." WV: "You're---? Oh my. Dreadfully sorry. There's been a mistake. We thought you were--" Git (with a sigh): "Dreaming..." --Bill Kent ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:00:55 -0600 From: enrique Subject: LIVE 1969 Hi, While reading the booklet on theGreg Lake Retrospective, I discovered that he owns a video from the concert in Hyde Park in 1969 the day King Crimson opened for the Stones and that he thinks it was a great performance, so... for all Crimson and Lake fans it could be fantastic to see that video, why don't Fripp and Lake comercialise it ? I am sure there would be plenty of fans mad for it. Well... I hope both, Fripp and Lake take note of it and publish it one day. ENRIQUE GOMEZ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:05:05 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Pinke Subject: Rilke mit frippiger Untermalung On Sept. 14, 1998 around 23.14 Fripp wrote on the DGM site: > Part of my evening's work has been to select two > soundscapes: a short piece for a charity record (for a > Down's Syndrome school in Derbyshire), and an hour of > `scaping to accompany Anthony Blake reading Rilke. If anyone has info about this Rilke reading, when it will be available, what it will be called, more specific details about what it will contain, I would really appreciate being privy to it. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:59:31 -0400 (EDT) From: crv1 at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Re: KC on Letterman '95....not Hi all James Dusewicz wrote: >My one really Crimsonlike memory of seeing them(the Thrank >tour double trio) on TV, was when David Letterman still was >on "that other network", on at 1 am in the morning. [snip] >Then there was a pause.....And so around 1:30 am that March, >I believe Knig Crimson appeared on the show!! I long forgot >what they played but I happen to identify KC with that big >Nor'easter. On November 14, 1995 the Double Trio performed an abridged version of "Dinosaur" on Late Night with Conan O'Brien. Letterman has been on CBS since 1993 an has never had King Crimson on his program. CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. -- J.G. Bennett And it's potato, potato, potato. -- Mike Keneally ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:56:46 +0100 From: Tim Pickard Subject: Getting rid of vinyl Clearing out my vinyl and wondered whether anyone on this list is interested in any of this Fripp/Crimson related stuff. E-mail me privately if you are. 7" singles Barry Andrews - Rossmore Road/Win a night out... featuring Fripp LoG/Fripp - Heptaparaparshiokh/Marriagemuzic (Frippertronics 11'45") KC - Sleepless KC- Heartbeat John Wetton - I'll Be There 12" single KC - Sleepless LP's Toyah - Prostitute (RF voice & guitar sample on one track) Toyah & Fripp - The Lady or the Tiger EGED44 Daryl Hall - Sacred Songs ... featuring RF Robert Fripp - Network (mini lp) The New Percussion Group of Amsterdam - Go Between EGED54 ...featuring Billy B. Journey to Inaccessible Places & other music, composed in collaboration by G.I.Gurdjieff & Thomas De Hartmann, Elan Sicroff, piano...produced by RF & Tony Arnold EGED45. Toby hope this sort of post is OK, if not please strike it out! Poor lecturer in need of funds to join DGM collectors club!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:19:08 -0400 From: Bert Rubini Subject: WTB: FFWD on CD Hi, Pardon my use of ET for personal reasons, but I'm looking for a copy of FFWD (the Orb + Fripp collaboration) on CD. I already have a cassette of this, but I'd like a disc copy. It's out of print, so I would appreciate it if anyone has or knows of an available copy. E-mail me directly, please, not to ET. bert r. rubini at mail dot hcc dot cc dot fl dot us -- My homepage - now updated with even more boring photos and mindless tedium!: http://www.hcc.cc.fl.us/services/faculty/bertrubini/home.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:13:08 -0400 From: tj Subject: RE: future BLUE tour query >From: Calyx/Big Bang > Secondly, I recently was in contact with David Torn about >the B.L.U.E. project. He mentioned that no further >activities were planned for that group beyond the upcoming >Autumn tour, mainly because... Aymeric Leroy Does this mean that there is no new material? That would be a shame for BLUE to tour the same part of the US (the one even I live in) and play the same tracks. I'll enjoy it but too bad they couldn't get a bit further out of town for others to hear (like you dear reader) or be bringing new tunes to similar shores. Now if they care to try a little more improv then that is PERFECTLY ok with moi. otherwise, tj DC-ET www with some nice pics of live BLUE http://www.tidalwave.net/~dumela/index~1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 04:45:36 PDT From: "Rafael Di Liumbard Jr." Subject: Bruford Vs Mastelotto = No winner... First I'd like to say that it's pintless to argue about which one who's the best. They are equally good but at different things. I have followed Both drummers carreirs, and I must say that they , althoug different in genre, has accomplished similar status, as high-ranked drummers. And if Crimson in the future is "Bruford-less" I trust that the rest of the group will turn it into something good. I certainly don't mind if Pat takes the "Throne" (ha), I know he'll trreat Crimson good. Keep up the good work... Rafael Di Liumbard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:38:50 EDT From: JFROXY at aol dot com Subject: King Ferry! Does anyone know if there are any demo recordings/bootlegs, etc of Bryan Ferry auditioning for the lead vocalist's role in K.C. in 1970? I read a couple of years ago in an article about Roxy that R.F. still had the demo tapes and threatened to release them one day! Any info? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:39:28 -0700 From: Rob MacCoun Subject: AB: high mean, high variance In ET 543 Greg Guillot asserted the following: "Belew -- many duds, and a big ego that exceeds his abilities." The latter part is incomprehensible; Belew simply oozes talent, both technically and creatively. Statistically, Belew might be characterized as a "high mean, high variance" performer. The high variance implies a lack of predictability and an openness to experimentation that is a source of great delight, even if it generates the occasional "dud" -- though I doubt we'd all agree on which songs were the duds. Rob MacCoun Goldman School of Pub Policy Univ. Calif. at Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-7320 t/510-642-7518, f/510-643-9657 maccoun at socrates dot berkeley dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:52:15 -0700 From: Scott Steele Subject: Subject lines; Eeek; Mike Giles; Tony Oliva > Please note that from now on, any posts received for ET which do not have a > valid subject line will not be included in ET, I've been posting some pretty long subject lines that haven't always come through. Is there a limit to the length of a subject line? [ Yes, 50 characters, for readability -- Toby ] >Are there *really* people in the world who "much anticipate" > a new Rick Wakeman album? Eek. Yes, and thank you for your unsolicitied judgement of these people's tastes. Eeek indeed. >As for nominations to fill his seat . . . has nobody any >recollection of the tremendous drumming of Michael Giles? >Imagine him and Bruford sharing the stage . . . WOW! Imagine M. Giles sharing the stage with any or all of the members of King Crimson. I wonder if Giles would serve if he were elected. I wonder if he would play V-Drums. >(I ain't crazy about "Kahn" and "Oliva," neither. "ELO" was >perfectly executed, however.) Oliva was an excellent hitter whose career ended prematurely because of knee injury. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:16:11 -0700 From: Jym Dingler Subject: KC on Conan, not Letterman James Dusewicz recalls King Crimson appearing on Letterman: > My one really Crimsonlike memory of seeing them (the Thrak > tour double trio) on TV, was when David Letterman still was > on "that other network", on at 1 am in the morning. They appeared on NBC's "Late Night With Conan O'Brien" (the old Letterman home) and performed a slightly truncated version of "Dinosaur." I had a nice high-speed tape that was later inadvertently used to tape an episode of "Freakazoid!" So, it wasn't a total loss. Cheers! Jym Dingler jymd at pacbell dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:13:06 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: Re: Wakeman Anticipated by ... In Pachyderm #547, the inimitable Eb wrote: > Are there *really* people in the world who "much > anticipate" a new Rick Wakeman album? Eek. PEOPLE WHO MUCH ANTICIPATE A NEW RICK WAKEMAN ALBUM: 10. The writer pool for "Saturday Night Live" 9. Paying members of the European Union of Lame Cape Manufacturers 8. Video owners on their third print of "This is Spinal Tap" 7. Event organizers at keyboard trade shows 6. Local pot/'luude dealers catering to that lucrative over-35 crowd 5. alt.fan.hobbit/highlander.deconstruction.listserv.daily (fake) 4. http://www.suck.com (real) 3. Marilyn Manson's primary costumer (hey, fabulous decorating ideas can come from anywhere) 2. Unemployed gnomes with current Equity or SAG cards and our #1 person: 1. Roger Dean (those commissions don't come in like they used to) Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 03:21:33 -0400 From: "Jim Budge" Subject: IRC Chat Tried to access the chat on IRC at 3:00pm est last Sunday for the first time. I actually started the room and only one person showed up. Is it typically like this, do you have your share of regulars or am I doing something wrong? Love the web page, I'm a Crimson fan from way back, first saw them in NYC (Academy of Music) in late '71 or '72 I think. Shared the bill with headliners Procol Harum and 'opening act' Yes. Trying to keep up with Fripp's activities these days, hope he makes it to Tampa sometime. Anyway, keep up the good work, peace. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:26:28 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: McCartney on music Hello, A local radio station ran a Beatles A to Z marathon this weekend, which got me looking at and reading through Mark Lewisohn's superb "The Beatles Recording Sessions" book once again. ETer's might find the following quote on page 6 from an interview Lewisohn did with Paul McCartney quite interesting in light of Fripp's own remarks about music: "We were mates and nobody was into copyrights and publishing, nobody understood -- we actually used to think when we came down to London that songs belonged to everyone. I've said this a few times but it's true, we really thought they just were in the air, and that you couldn't actually own one" BTW, Beatles fans who haven't checked this book out should definitely do so. It includes an incredible amount of detail about EVERY recording session, and much more (if that's possible). Goodbye, Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:28:22 -0500 From: John Toothman Subject: My purple perspeKCtives This may be my last post to ET. Although it is a valuable source of KC related information to me, and I will never stop reading it, I simply find that when I do post, most of my comments are overlooked, forgotten, and/or ignored. This may be a reflection of me, or of ET'ers, but neither is pertinent. I was thinking about the idea of "research and development". As an artist myself, I do research for one of two reasons: 1. Because I have a clear idea of what I want to do, but need some information on how to best develop that idea. 2. Because I have no clear idea of what I want to do, and therefore, need guidance in a more specific direction towards generating such an idea. I then tried to reason out what one of those two is behind Robert's "research and development" agenda. A third possibility is that he wishes to research for the sake of research itself, but this seems ruled out by the addition of "...for the greater Crim". What I believe Robert is attempting is best described by reason #2. After all, if the double trio had any idea of what was to happen next, we might have had another complete or finished (or whatever term one wishes to apply) album out by 1997. But instead, we got THRaKaTTaCK, which, to a listener who is not privey to all the workings behind the scene of the greater Crim, was rather alarming, if not totally disorienting. This was followed by other process- or research-related material, such as the various projeKCts, but nothing that was quite as polished as THRAK. All this is meant NOT to belittle the development made by Robert and KC, but merely to support my belief that there was really no clear idea behind what has transpired between 1996 and now. What has transpired has been a lot of empty gestures, though nonetheless well-intended gestures. I have found that this lack of depth in gesture, albeit superficial, has produced a soap opera-like interpretation of King Crimson's R&D phase. I point out to readers that I have said "superficial", aware that as any artist knows, (and I'm sure Robert knows), what goes into a work of art is seldom seen at the completion stage. I am proposing that we have been seeing the process stage, rather than the product stage, since 1996. And as much as I want to rebuke the commodification of art, to abandon music-as-merhandise ethics, I feel I must say that process often makes poor product. If any wish to reply privately, please do: twd at eden dot rutgers dot edu Thank you for your attention. John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:42:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Paolo Valladolid Subject: Hair No, this is not about the rock musical but about a short piece by Japanese comic artist Katsuhiro Otomo (best known for _Akira_). Otomo's "Hair" takes place in a city in the future, ruled by a tyrannical Director, where hippies are banned. I won't go into details about the story itself, though it is quite hilarious, but instead mention what happens towards the end: The guru-like leader of the Hairs (a guerilla group of hippies) sits cross-legged atop a pair of huge stereo speaker cabinets. He receives a vinyl record which turns out to be... In The Court Of The Crimson King! The guru revels in the waves of sound blasting from the speakers... Cheers, Paolo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:53:21 -0400 From: Tom Evans Subject: Mastellotto I think it is time to stop doubting the ability of Pat Mastellotto. Ok, so maybe he played in Mr. Mister, does that make him a bad guy? NO! If you want to hear some of Pat's great playing, check out "Oranges and Lemons" by XTC. Pat's drumming and percussion work is all over this disc, and I remember comments by Andy Partridge about what a great percussionist Pat is and how easy it is to work with him. As far as Pat being hired to provide the backbeat in Crimson, it appeared to me that Pat was doing more around-the-beat, accent-type playing when I saw KC in Springfield, MA on the Thrak tour. Bruford was playing the straighter stuff in more than a few songs. Now, don't get me wrong, Bruford is my favorite drummer. I've seen him with KC, Earthworks, Moraz, and ABWH. Crimson without him is a different beast, but still a beast nonetheless (and that's a compliment!). Give Mastellotto a chance. His main crime seems to be that his name doesn't roll off the tongue like Bruford's! Tom Evans drummer http://users.aol.com/jumpropers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:26:25 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: The Crimson we want...(What it is, what it never will be) Dear ETers - In a recent posting to the DGM website Robert went into a fairly long dissertation that included: "King Crimson fans and enthusiasts, if ET is an indication (and it probably is), are more interested in King Crimson of 25 years ago than the / an ongoing and present King Crimson. New Crimson material, tours and recordings are eagerly awaited, with the implied proviso that new Crimson is a great idea - subject always to fact that it's the same as before. And preferably 25 years before." I myself am only still this interested in KC because it is always changing, challenging the listener to open new doors to move beyond preconceptions into a place of magic and wonder. If I want to listen to the history of KC I have those recordings from that time. For this time and place KC should be WHATEVER IT IS NOT WHAT I WANT IT TO BE! I have faith that Robert et al will do whatever they must to let Crimson evolve, a living breathing, wall paper shreadding, delicately flowing force that challenges all it's participants, audients and performers to rise above the automated, mundane status quo and live a life alive not dead. "The King is not dead, Long live the King" - Martin B. <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> Martin G. Bradburn <>-<>-<>-<> Heartlab Inc <> <> Senior Database Engineer <>-<> 101 Airport Rd <> <> mgb at heartlab dot com <>-<> Westerly, RI 02891 <> <> mgb at brainiac dot com(home) <>-<>-<>-<> (401) 596-0592 x103 <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> 'We know others to the extent we know ourselves' <> <> - Guitar Craft Aphorism <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:03:52 PDT From: "Steve Honoshowsky" Subject: Bruford I think Bill is the man. He can not be replaced in my opinion. The only person I could ever see replacing him would be Terry Bozzio. I don't think Fripp would ever consider Terry though, especially because the focus is electronics. I also think that it would be a bad idea to bring back any of the old Crimson drummers. I think the reason why Bill has been the Crimson drummer for the most time is because he is so much better than the Crimson drummers of old. Bill's contrabutions to the band have been ground-breaking, and they can be recognized by all musicians. Anyway, I usually trust Mr. Fripp's judgement, but I don't know about this one. I probably would have never got interested in KC if it wasn't for Bill and vise versa. That's all. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:49:01 +0100 From: "D. Chinn" Subject: "Lizard" - Prince Rupert's tears explored While were exploring the arcana of "Lizard", I'd like to pick up on a strand thats only been touched on periperally so far (as much as I can make out...). I'd always thought that the central image of "Lizard" - Prince Rupert and his glass tears - was merely another Sinfieldian affectation. Just another cod-mediaeval/fantastical legendary image which he'd drop as casually as the rest of his Gothic pantheon of hags, kings, witches, jesters, scales, iron wheels and claws. etc. While it did bring to mind the glass tears glistening on the cheeks of a model in one of Man Ray's more famous photographs (any photo-art buffs among the ET community can remind us of the title, 'cos I've forgotten!), I couldn't associate the image with much more (beyond the obvious chandeliers, that is), and eventually wrote it off as one of Sinfield's more outrageously purple moments. This changed, however, when I read Peter Carey's excellent (and recently filmed) novel "Oscar & Lucinda" (Faber & Faber, ISBN 0-571-1534-6) and suddenly came across a passage which read: "...the phenomenon known as "larmes bataviques" or Prince Rupert's drops." Crimhead reflexes kicked in. Intrigued, I read on, and with great delight discovered that it continued as follows: "You need not ask me who is Prince Rupert or what is a "batavique" because I do not know. I have, though, right here beside me as I write (I hold it in the palm of my left hand while the right hand moves to and fro across the page) a Prince Rupert drop - a solid teardrop of glass not more than two inches from head to tail. And do not worry that this oddity, this rarity, was the basis for de la Bastie'a technique for toughening glass, or that it led to the invention of safety glass - these are practical matters and shed no light on the incredible attractiveness of the drop itself which you will understand faster if you take a fourteen-pound sledgehammer and try to smash it on a forge. You cannot. This is glass of the most phenomenal strength and would seem, for a moment, to be the fabled unbreakable glass described by the alchemical author of "Mappa Clavicula". And yet if you put down your hammer and take up your pliers instead - I say "if"; I am not recommending it - you will soon see that this is not the fabled glass stone of the alchemists, but something almost as magical. For although it is strong enough to withstand the sledgehammer, the tail can be nipped with a pair of blunt-nosed pliers. It takes a little effort. And once it is done it is as if you have taken out the keystone, removed the linchpin, kicked out the foundations. The whole thing explodes. And where, a moment before, you had unbreakbale glass, now you have grains of glass in every corner of the workshop - in your eyes if you are not careful - and what is left in your hand you can crumble - it feels like sugar -without danger. It is not unusual to see a glass blower or a gatherer scrabbling around in a kibble, arm deep in the oily water, sorting through the little gobs of cast-off cullet, fossicking for Prince Rupert's drops. The drops are made by accident, when a tear of molten glass falls a certain distance and is cooled rapidly. You will find grown men in the glass business, blowers among them, who have handled molten metal all their lives, and if you put a Prince Rupert's drop before them, they are like children. I have this one here, in my hands. If you were here beside me in the room, I would find it almost impossible not to demonstrate it to you, to take my pliers and - in a second - destroy it." During the course of this chapter of "Oscar & Lucinda", two Prince Rupert's drops are shattered in precisely this way, one of which has been sent inside a letter as a symbolic message. Carey explores its significance as follows: "...Abel Leplastrier had been given, in John Bell's letter, an annotated index to the event he had just witnessed. The glass was by way of being a symbol of weakness and strength; it was a cypher for someone else's heart. It was a confession, an accusation, a cry of pain. It was for this he wept. ...Fireworks made of glass. An explosion of dew. Crescendo. Diminuendo. Silence. There are drugs that work the same, and while I am not suggesting that our founder purchased the glassworks to get more drops, it is clear that she had the seed planted... and knew already the lovely contradictory nature of glass and she did not have to be told, on the day she saw the works at Darling Harbour, that glass is a thing in disguise, an actor, is not solid at all, but a liquid, that an old sheet of glass will not only take on a royal and purplish tinge but will reveal its true liquid by having grown fatter at the bottom and thinner at the top, and that even while it is as frail as the ice on a Parramatta puddle, it is stronger under compression than Sydney sandstone, that it is invisible, solid, in short, a joyous and paradoxical thing, as good a material as any to build a life from." What a fabulous Crimsonic image! While thirty years perspective might've made us dubious about a hefty percentage of the heavily overwritten lyrics of early KC, surely the use of Prince Rupert's tears as a lyrical image is one that still stands up in the present day? Excuse me if I'm getting as purple-prosed here as Sinfield himself, but think of Crimson's balance between opposing forces of rigid, restraining Frippian order and violent chaotic THRAKked-up explosion. Of the delicacy of a Greg Lake-sung KC melody, suddenly blown to smithereens by the full-bore guitar-and-sax onslaught pouncing from out of the group. Of the guitar lattices/catstepping melody and the naked vocals/howling noise elements coexisting in the structure of "Frame By Frame". Of the agonised emotiveness held in check in "Two Hands". Or, simply, of "Starless" (need I say more?). Has anyone else got anything to add on this topic? Or does anyone know where Sinfield and Fripp got the image from in the first place, or if either of them have commented on it subsequently? At any rate, an indestructible glass drop with an explosive Achilles heel undoubtedly beats "Larks' Tongues In Aspic" as a symbolic concept, any way you look at it. Over to y'all, Dann Chinn dchinn at btinternet dot com http://www.collective.co.uk/misfitcity ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:33:05 -0700 From: "Leif Anderson" Subject: live recordings Absent Lovers and Nightwatch are excellent discs which represent my entry into live King Crimson. I am always eager to listen to "live albums" because, at their best, these albums convey a "presence" not always evident in studio performances. As Mr. Fripp points out in Absent Lovers' liner notes, a live performance is like a "hot date" compared to the "love letter" aspect of studio work. Perhaps we would both agree that the interchange of energy between the band and the audience linked to the transitory nature of live performance (Only one take here, fellas!) may highly charge the material. Mr. Fripp continues to discuss the irony intrinsic in archive releases of live KC. He uses the term "translation" in reference to recording studio work and live performance. In other words, what we hear is a representation or reflection of the an actual, i.e. specific in space and time, musical event. This leads me to wonder what exactly is the purpose of a live performance album? It, by its very nature as a recording, cannot BE the performance it documents. Should every little bit of the performance, the talking between songs, and all the applause be included in the CD? (Some of the applause in Absent Lovers is truncated which seems ok to me since I realize I'm not at the venue, anyway.) If the intent in the creation of the live CD is to help recreate the experience of being there to someone who actually WAS there or to create a historically accurate "document" for future generations, I suppose everything should be included. But if the purpose of a live album is to attempt to bring the "presence" of a performance to listeners after the fact, I would say that band chatter and announcements between songs, even preliminary introduction of the band(!), is detrimental to the immediacy of the music on the CD. The announcements on Absent Lovers just don't have the "hot date" presence of the music! On a different note, Patrick Gaudin (ET#546) speaks rightiously about the merits of Islands' "Sailor's Tale." This song has a timeless appeal to me, too. Leif ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:08:37 PDT From: "Nomad Stem" Subject: Wishful thinking and expectations ETers should hop on over to the DGM site and read what Fripp has to say about things. What you wish for might just happen. Be careful what you wish for, it might just happen. Although some may feel that Fripp is verbose and pratty, I can only admire his ability to articulate his soul and his thinking to us in his diary. His latest entries frightened me, made me laugh, made me nod in agreement, and most of all, as always, made me think. If only more ETers would just think about what they are saying and contemplate the possible effects of their thoughts, their words and their expectations. Perhaps the music has already died and we're just beating a dead horse. Where is that volume dial? It must be stuck on 11! Nomad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 16:54:08 CDT From: "Eric Anderson" Subject: The Death of the Crimson King Dear ETers, Please read the following excerpt from Robert Fripp's DGM Diary: >Audience expectation is a weight, a brick wall, which >spoils so much and denies the possibility of joy within any >available moment - by defining the moment >historically. Hey! lighten up guys! Let go! You've got your >favourite albums - listen to them! You've got fond memories >and nostalgic reflections - wallow in them! 25 years' ago >there was little enough interest in the band; 25 years >later, get into the now or stay where you are - but DO NOT >hold down my moment. You kill me, you kill Crimson, and you >impoverish a precious opportunity for us all. >The idea that Robert is THE leader - this reflects a >limited understanding of what a leader is, or might be. It >doesn't reflect on how Crimson operates, or provide an >insight to the nature of leadership. There is no one >privileged position: which means equally there is / are >privileged postion/s. In an ideal world, leadership is a >role played among equals. My particular role of "leader", >or what Adrian calls "quality control" and "vision", has no >bearing on what is known as "the leader" in an heirarchical >context. Crimson is not heirarchical in the way that many >ET posters appear to assume; e.g. each Crim player has the >right of veto; everyone shares the money. >The limited, simplistic view has my sympathy. But this dud >reasoning does not apply to the inner workings of Crimson. Robert also mentions in the post his proposal that the next Crimson/ProjeKct should be a Fripp-less one (although he reports that Adrian will have nothing to do with it, and I infer most likely won't happen). He also mentions that in the face of audience expectation that his creative future might be less suited to Crimsonising and more suited to the business of DGM or Guitar Craft. Nevertheless, Fripp clearly illustrates how the restricting bind of audience expectation is suffocating the way in which King Crimson is. I find it highly ironic that the very thing which allows King Crimson to function in a (relatively) global capacity (namely the patronage of its audience) is the very same thing which may cause King Crimson to ceace to function. I remember sitting in the audience of the P2 show at Park West and during the encore hearing (almost) every King Crimson number ever recorded being shouted out towards the group! In that musical event the audience communicated that it had a preference as to how the event should unfold, and their reaction to how the music evolved would (and was) based on that. THIS BLEEDS THE PERFORMANCE OF ITS ENERGY What's the point of having a King Crimson show if we KNOW what's going to happen? If we know where the ripping improv is going to fall? If we know the chord progression of the next tune? Where's the discovery? Where's the Energy? Where's KING CRIMSON??? Every time I read a post on ET that expresses an 'opinion' about where Crimson should go, how Crimson should be Crimson, I shudder. Additionally, I shudder at every post that defines what (or more recently WHO) King Crimson is. King Crimson is what it's going to be. It has never, and should never be about who is on stage or in the studio. It would seem to me that the audience (and its expectations) are about to close the door through which Crimson enters the world. If King Crimson is going to continue, it is going to continue in an explorative and creative direction. King Crimson won't be doing geriatric nostalgia tours (ala Yes, ELP). And if King Crimson is going to function at all in the future, I think that since this listserv has a hand in determining (for better or for worse) how Fripp & Co. respond to their patrons, then anyone who has a desire to see King Crimson on stage again (or in a studio) exploring unchartered waters and leaving behind confining expectations and material should speak up and say so. Let King Crimson hear the encouraging voice of its audience. Let it know that you are more concerned with hearing the future than the past. Are you? My vote: Robert, guys keep going in the direction(s) you're going. Don't look back. If you bow to the audience's wishes, KC will die. If you go off where the music takes you then most of the audience might not follow, which would also mean death, but for Crimson, it's better to die standing on your toes than on your heels. Eric Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:00:18 -0500 From: jessica Subject: The Bottom Line! Crims, Having just read Robert Fripp's stunning new journal entry, I reply publicly that: I WILL NEVER PURCHASE A "KING CRIMSON" ALBUM, ATTEND A "KING CRIMSON" LIVE PERFORMANCE OR SUPPORT IN ANY WAY ANYTHING CALLED "KING CRIMSON" IF ROBERT FRIPP IS NOT INVOLVED!!!!!!!!!!! Any entity calling itself "King Crimson" that does not have as one of it's members Robert Fripp, is a vile sham, a disgrace, and a non-band. Blaine D. Arnold ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:53:42 -0700 From: Robert Mayer Subject: The Enigmatic Bruford Debate Dear ETers: Mr. Murphee in the last ET (#547) told us about Adrian Belew's Q&A (sections 1-4) on the Belew website listed in the letter. In those questions, there are some details Adrian provides that really makes the Bruford debate moot. Really. Trust me. There's some other intriguing details in there. Again, trust me. Sorry, don't mean to detract from ET reading, but Mr. Murphee has done us a favor. Respectfully R.A. Mayer P.S. Really enjoyed the Bopster's review. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:02:52 EDT From: Jdmack01 at aol dot com Subject: DGM Page - Fripp's Thoughts Having read the current news on the DGM page, I've concluded that Mr. Fripp seems to be receiving a lot of feedback that King Crimson should be exploring avenues already traveled in the '70's. And that this saddens him. Robert, if you're reading, I for one want to hear something totally new! To my ears, the album "Discipline" was absolutely new when it came out - unlike anything I had ever heard up to that point in my musical discoveries. There is nothing I would love more than to put on the next King Crimson album and exclaim, "Whoa! This sounds like... like ... It sounds like nothing I've ever heard before. I can't compare this to anything!" But I'm also realistic to know that this is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE! And those who actually make the attempt are heroes in my book. The last album I heard that made my jaw drop was John Zorn's "Naked City." As a slightly related note to some previous postings, if King Crimson ever decides that neither Pat nor Bill will carry it to the next level, I strongly recommend Joey Baron as a future drummer. He is amazing! Speaking of Bill, I'd like to respond to a paragraph from the latest DGM news: "Bill, who suffers terribly for Fripp's (apparently) arbitrary decisions is not troubled by many of the concerns which trouble me. Bill is primarily an executant, and an outstanding one. That is, Bill is mainly interested in the activity of playing music. The specifics of what he plays, or the conditions in our culture that musicians work within, are largely a given." And for this, I love him. B.L.U.E. will be playing at The Birchmere near Washington, DC on December 1, and I will be as close to the front as I can. I want to have the best view possible of musicians who simply love music, and love to play music, regardless of their circumstances. I consider it a fantastic gift to fans like myself at any ticket price. Enough rambling for now, J. D. Mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:57:01 -0700 From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Fripp-less Crimson Quote from Fripp's journal at the Discipline website: "Adrian has just popped down to say that KC without Fripp is not an option he's interested in. He felt strongly about this." Who's need guitarists anyway? Adrian can stay home. How about a Stick/drums double duo? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:52:19 -0400 From: "Bill Duhigg" Subject: Anagrams of DGM Inc. Anagrams of 'Discipline Global Mobile Incorporated': (Puntuation added) Doomed: Obligations cripple brilliance. Bold, ideal policies; Robert complaining. Egoistic, primordial, noble, cold, plebian. Bob deploring anti-social, melodic peril. Re: bootlegging: Demoniacal in Bob deplores illicit prog. Re: Fripp: Incredible diplomat; biological person. Re: Bruford-less KC: Composition boring; Bill: ideal. Replaced??! Melodic prog; Bill nonseparable! Idiotic!! Bill: noble maniac; deplores idiotic prog. Odd leftovers: ELP booting: deplorin', diabolical crimes! BBC'S millionaire pop: delicate drooling. Mellotron origin appalled BBC idiocies. Melodic propagation on BBC: idle, sillier. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:05:34 -0700 From: Scott Steele Subject: Fripp's at the crossroads in a lot of different ways. Check out his posting to the DGM website: >The Great Divide describes how we feel in any process when we are too far from the beginning to go back, and too far from the end to go forwards. I hope he gets some more wind in his sails pretty soon, somehow. >During the P4 bagel-time (not quite a lunchtime, but a break time anyway) I suggested to Tony, Pat & Trey that they consider a five-piece King Crimson without me in it. At the end of our working day we visited Loco Lupes, Mexican restaurant and home of the Monster Margharita, with Adrian & Martha Belew, Chris Murphy and Ken Latchney, our recording engineers. Once again I made the suggestion, and encouraged them to initiate Frippless Crimson and ProjeKts. >Points in favour: Crimson can visit all those towns & cities that Fripp will never play in; can play in all the venues that Fripp rejects on the grounds of size, acoustics and musical suitability; can play any repertoire; can play acoustically, electronically, without restriction; and can make a lot of fans and enthusiasts very happy. Apparently he thinks that this is a solution for a lot of problems for his Crimson amigos. >If it isn't already clear, King Crimson for Fripp is not simply a musical venture. King Crimson is a way of doing things; it has its own raison d'etre; its way of doing business has operating policies which support the musical aims; it comprises individuals who define / express / manifest the eternal Crim's spirit within any partiKcular inKcarnation. I suggest that it follows that King Crimson's members (not just Fripp) hold themselves to a higher standard personally, professionally, even spiritually! than the members of other groups. This is remarkable. > [ . . . ] the democracy of the dollar confers a voting right on anyone who has a dollar. [ . . . ] But if the relationship between performer and audience becomes a commercial transaction, and as I see the audient as merely a consumer, the musical life has just died in me. So there is more at stake than Fripp's fortune. This is not a guy who is just going to do Soundscapes in his studio with no one except David Singleton watching. He is in it to reach his audience, an audience that he is begging to throw off their self-imposed shaKCles: >King Crimson fans and enthusiasts, if ET is an indication (and it probably is), are more interested in King Crimson of 25 years ago than the / an ongoing and present King Crimson. New Crimson material, tours and recordings are eagerly awaited, with the implied proviso that new Crimson is a great idea - subject always to fact that it's the same as before. And preferably 25 years before. Here's your opportunity to convince Fripp that yes, we appreciate Fracture, and yes, we don't need him to remake that song (or any other KC song) anymore; we are ready to for King Crimson's future to present itself. >[ . . . ] Bill is mainly interested in the activity of playing music. The specifics of what he plays, or the conditions in our culture that musicians work within, are largely a given. So, to borrow Zappa's phrase, Bill shuts up and plays his drums, and doesn't need to agonize over the relationship between audient and performer. That would make things easier if we were all wired that way, but of course we are not. >Tony, Pat, Adrian, Bill and Trey are all exceptionally experienced, talented professional musicians. These five are all better players than I am, Naaaa, all including Robt are on that level where their greatness is self-evident, they are just different people. Notice that Fripp includes Pat in this grouping, though some of the readers of ET inexplicably don't. >and mostly have greater experience. They know, from this experience, the crushing conditions which restrict the possibilities open to any group of players. [ . . . ] To get King Crimson onstage and playing, or in a studio and recording, is itself such a triumph maybe, reasonably, that's all we should hope to be able to achieve. When we get that far, against all the difficulties and limitations, we're faced with an audience who mostly prefer material Crimson played years ago. Why not give the audience what they want, so everyone's happy!? The group plays, which it loves; the audience loves what they play; and the musicians get paid (not a great deal, but sufficent). This is an achievement in itself, and to aim for more is unrealistic. >But in this regard Fripp is utterly fucking unrealistic. BRAVO! >If this is my future as a working musician, and as a member of King Crimson, better to stop here. For the third time. In my opinion, this guy talking is looking for hope. I think the readership of ET might give him some. Have you ever been in that position, when you have been talking for hours or days or longer, and you feel strongly about a subject, and you wonder if anyone will listen or ever consider your viewpoint? I have, and it makes me tired. This guy is an advocate for you if you consider yourself an audient of music that is different from all the rest: >My personal responsibility is to the global view. It disturbs me that in any 2500 theatre 500 people are not going to see or hear anything of value. That profoundly disturbs me. I know the reason: economics. The extra 500 people, marginal to the musical event, are necessary to the economic event. 2000 people break even. So the Tower in Philadelphia (capacity c. 2500) is on my banned list. [ . . . ] When I look out, see and know this, the performance is spoilt for me. There are a lot of things that are spoilers for Fripp. All of his spoilers seem legitimate to me. >But to any experienced, professional musician, that's the way it is. And Fripp is to be commended for trying to change the way it is. >Why break up Crimson when the group gets about to be really successful? Because "success" reinforces the nonsense, the pressure to continue, to repeat, and the pressure to continue to accept the nonsense. Wouldn't it be interesting if DGM becomes a blueprint for record companies? A way of doing things? We see that Todd Rundgren and Shawn Phillips (among others) are beginning to market their music in a more direct-to-the-consumer method. Kind of like DGM. >[ . . . ] King Crimson fans would love new King Crimson music, providing it's the same as before. And if it is, they'll complain that it's not innovative, just like they did, well, before. Isn't this clear? Now is the time to demonstrate to this guy that Crimson's fans are a cut above, like I think they are. >Audience expectation is a weight, a brick wall, which spoils so much and denies the possibility of joy within any available moment - by defining the moment historically. Hey! lighten up guys! Let go! You've got your favourite albums - listen to them! You've got fond memories and nostalgic reflections - wallow in them! 25 years' ago there was little enough interest in the band; 25 years later, get into the now or stay where you are - but DO NOT hold down my moment. You kill me, you kill Crimson, and you impoverish a precious opportunity for us all. The words couldn't be any clearer. >The idea that Robert is THE leader - this reflects a limited understanding of what a leader is, or might be. [ . . . ] Crimson is not heirarchical in the way that many ET posters appear to assume; e.g. each Crim player has the right of veto; everyone shares the money. Hmm. Sounds like a collective. (Duh.) >The limited, simplistic view has my sympathy. But this dud reasoning does not apply to the inner workings of Crimson. >Adrian has just popped down to say that KC without Fripp is not an option he's interested in. He felt strongly about this. Nor am I. That's the expectation I can't get rid of - it's not Crimson without Fripp. Though the other five are talented enough and don't need to rely on Fripp to make a fantastic sound. As a fan of Crimson I can't release this requirement of what defines Crimson - it's an unnamed Fripp quality that is present on all their albums and would be absent if he was gone. And finally the very cryptic entry at >22.19 >Today was a turning point. That sounds good but that's all we know, so it might not be good. It wasn't bad or good? It wasn't musical or otherwise? >I have returned from dinner with my friends Vic Garbarini and Kate Dombroski, and meeting their friend Jane Cantrell. Vic was editor of Musician magazine during the early 1980s. He is the only writer I know who is able to clearly articulate the dynamics of the creative process; and more directly than any musician I know. Katie is a shiatsu specialist of exceptional talent and capacity. And they played a part in the turning point? What was the outcome? Such a cliffhanger, ProjeKCt 4. How will we live until the next posting?? Aaaa!!!! This is much better than any Steven Segal movie. It's real. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #548 ********************************