Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #547 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 547 Sunday, 11 October 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: ET postings -- please read NEWS: Adrian answers to his Q&A GIG BIZ: Blue Bruford - Levin UpperExtremities Tour Predictions changes and opportunities Earthbound on the Web... Six Degrees of Fripp king crimson (and yes) in film Young Lion Drummers, soliciting opinions.... the great drum debate.... ProjeKct Four in SanFran Fripp's favourites Re: Wakeman + synthophobia RF as non-leader of KC Re: Crimso Drummers RE: KC '95 Letterman appearance EVOLVE...//Krim does Maybe no more Bruford, but a potential replacement Interpreting Lizard etc. Golden Mean Proportions,Fibonacci Numbers, Harmonic Proportions Re: Brufordless Crimson Ranting at the edge... Re: In defence of V-Drums Re: all things bruford Be thankful Adrian Belew: Still Reigning Rhino Electric Cat Guitarist Re:Drofurb and other drivel Re: pocket, Tori & Aaron Bill ,YES and Wakeman stuff Bruford Drummers Soundscapes: Box; 1999 Dynamic brufford's role in king crimson Amazon.com -- Reviews of CD's from Artists and Fans Drumless Crimson? ( from japan with love) Review of Bopster re: please no brufordless crimso ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun 11 Oct From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: ET postings -- please read Please note that from now on, any posts received for ET which do not have a valid subject line will not be included in ET, nor will they be returned to the poster. In particular, subject lines like "Re: Elephant-Talk #546" are not valid. OK? Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:58:23 -0500 From: "Rob Murphree" Subject: NEWS: Adrian answers to his Q&A Hi All! Adrian has sent in the last batch of answers to the questions he's received and there's a lot of great kC-related information. Drop by Adrian's Website and take the link to Adrian's Corner. And in case you missed batches 1, 2, and 3, they are also available at Adrian's Corner and include lots of kC info as well. ( kC Related topics covered: p2, p4, Future of kC, Fripp, Bruford, Levin/Bozzio, etc.) You will NOT be disappointed. I welcome feedback from the ETers. Until next time... -Rob rob at murple dot com Your Complete Guide to the Twang Bar Rhino King!!! Rob Murphree's Adrian Belew WWW Site http://www.murple.com/adrianbelew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:55:19 -0400 From: Rob Thomas Subject: GIG BIZ: Blue Bruford - Levin UpperExtremities Tour The Blue Bruford - Levin UpperExtremities Tour featuring Bill Bruford (drums), Tony Levin (bass), David Torn (guitar) and Curtis Botti (trumpet) will make a stop on Tuesday, December 1, 1998 at the Birchmere in Alexandria, VA (DC suburb). The show starts @ 8:00 pm and cost of admission is $17.50. The Birchmere is a small music club that should provide a great place to see and hear all going on. Not a bad seat in the house. More information can be found at www.birchmere.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 21:36:20 +0000 From: John Barnas Subject: Predictions Hi everybody, Remember the first time you heard THRAK? Did you instantly connect with it and say, "now there's the Crimson I love so well!"? I didn't. I thought it sounded Lennon-esque at first hearing. But, of course the more I looked at it, the more I let it roll around in my brain I was brought to an exclamation: "I like it!" You are going to buy LIVE GROOVE. It is going to sound very interesting. Wild. Unfamiliar. There are some musical moments that may cause you to pull over to the side of the road for awhile. This Crimson doesn't sound anything like any Crimson? Your memories of Crimson exist in reference to time. This music exists right now in space. Put this space into your brain. You will get the idea, I think, that this sound being produced does not need Bill Bruford. Maybe it will later. Something funky is going on with the ProjeKct. Would you be so stiff as to not present yourself to this music in the form of (gasp) dance? Bring it on Robert and Co. We'll meet you there. No hurry. Love to all. Let's groove. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:20:15 -0400 From: "Your Name" Subject: changes and opportunities Being a drummer, I took the news Bruford's departure in disbelief. My first and emotional reaction is that a Bruford less KC is about as exciting as a weinerless hotdog. My second reaction is that what remains is still a core of incredible musicians and I have little doubt that they will find new ways to challenge the listeners. However, I will listen before I pay for new material. Change brings opportunities. My fantasy is that a Bruford and Holdsworth reunion will take place to create some new, relevant, and even groundbreaking music. That combination keeps getting mentioned many many times on multiple lists as being an all time favorite and a classic. I hope that anyone in ear shot of the two guys will encourage some new magic to the best of their abilities. I read in horror of Bill's discovery of the first disbanding of KC by Fripp. If it is accurate that he learned of the painfull news from a near stranger, then I will lose all respect for Fripp as a man. I been on both sides of that coin. Being fired from a band caused much self doubt and feelings of betrayal by people I had considered friends. I hope this time Fripp demonsrated a human and dignified side. As deep as Bill's passion extends, I can only imagine how he must feel. Perhaps in my ignorance of the actual recent events and the old one, I am way off base. I hope so. Kurt Angel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 04:52:50 +0000 From: Selinsky Subject: Earthbound on the Web... I'm starting a non-for-profit website, at http://www.freespeech.org/earthrise (there's nothing there yet), called "EarthRise". One of the purpouses of this website is to host works of art that are almost impossible to find. "Earthbound", a King Crimson album that is almost impossible to locate, is now off the catalogs. I've sent an email letter to Robert Fripp, stating that I am requesting permission to post audio samples from this live album, and thus "host" an online presence of this rather "artistically controversial" work on the web. Mr. Fripp has yet to respond, as he is a busy person, I understand this well. Here's the catch, I actually never even heard "Earthbound" before! I did hear Islands, and I quite like that album (read my review). I once saw a used copy of "Earthbound" in a NYC record store - by the time I scraped up the necessary seven bucks it was gone (one of you guys probably grabbed it :) Why do I want to do this, sound unheard? Because I feel that there has been enough talk about this album to make it worthy to at least take note of, which often happens in with works of art. I want to provide access for those who want to hear parts and discuss this album, and have the freedom to intelligently discuss it. Even if new unheard material pops up from this era, Earthbound itself is a work of art that was around in it's day. IF and only IF Robert approves of my desire, I will need a copy to transform into audio samples. Here is where I need to appeal to the help of ET members. I am asking whoever has access to a clean copy of this album (in other words, relativley good pressing and more or less free from scratches), to make a good quality dub on tape for creating audio samples. I'd also need someone to scan in the cover and any other art possible, such as photos of that band, and even the LP label itself. Naturally, I'll also ask for your written contributions - i.e. the album's history and it's impact. As Robert himself said, "Your enthusiasm is encouraged". - George mailto:earthrise at apexmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:16:00 -0700 From: "Joey Aguilera" Subject: Six Degrees of Fripp Jim McCabe has given me the honor of maintaining the "six degrees of fripp" page. I will be updating the database shortly. If you have any contributions please send 'em to fripp at indiscipline dot net The new address is: http://www.indiscipline.net/fripp/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:52:02 EDT From: Elfinster at aol dot com Subject: king crimson (and yes) in film fyi, i've senn "buffalo '66," a film by vincent gallo. in it there are two songs by yes: "heart of the sunrise" and "sweetness" and one song by king crimson: "moonchild." as a further note let it be noted that christina ricci tap-dances to the song on a bowling alley. life is full of surprises, i guess. best to all of you, carlos schroder ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 14:08:01 -0400 From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: Young Lion Drummers, soliciting opinions.... The discussion on Bruford has me thinking on drummers; I'd like to get some opinions from people but (for Toby's sake and ours) ask that they come via private email as we will otherwise stray far from the King Crimson fold -- Recently, Berklee here in Boston had a celebration in honor of Louis Bellson, Max Roche, Roy Haynes and Elvin Jones (sadly Tony Williams, maybe the only other drummer in this class, has passed on -- then again Williams would not quite be as old as these four, and arguably his style was very derivative of Roy Haynes' (though distinct) and so there was a tip of the hat there). I'm wondering who people are listening to in terms of _young_ drummers of that skill level -- the only two I can think of offhand are Joey Baron and Brian Blade (the latter already being quite probably as talented as any of the Berklee honorees, in my opinion, and the former being slightly older than I'm thinking when I say "young."). Then there are less distinctive voices, e.g. Cindy Blackman, who sounds (to me) remarkably like Tony Williams (and, jeez, is able to play the M-Base stuff Steve Coleman writes). Anyone else come to mind? I'd appreciate your ideas. SK Sanjay Krishnaswamy sanjay_krishnaswamy_ab93 at post dot harvard dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:49:00 -0400 From: "Stack, Mike" Subject: the great drum debate.... Being the type to come out of the woodwork once every few months or so on such sundry things as mailing lists, I make my semi-occasional visit here. Semi-related sidenote-- went to see Jerry Cantrell last night at Lupos in Providence, RI (Cantrell was formerly the guitarist for Alice in Chains, IMHO the only band in the "grunge" movement to show any real potential..) and found myself realizing how much I appreciate the incredible live sound Crimson has. Cantrell had guitarist Chris DeGarmo (who recently left Queensryche, IMHO the best of the descendants of Crimson, Yes, et al..) with him, when DeGarmo was playing a lead, you couldn't hear him 'cause he was mixed so damn low. This never would've happened at a Crimson show, so a big thanks to the sound guy for Crimson whose name alludes me at the moment-- if you ever happen to read this, you're appreciated. Now, onto more relevent (?) topics..... Greg Guillot said: > >>(4) Pat (although very nice) simply does not fit within KC > >>as its sole drummer -- he simply isn't good enough. This statement has stirred the pot quite a bit it seems. I agree with him, BTW, I find that the succession of incredible drummers in Crimson doesn't have it's place filled by PM. I'm not saying he's a bad drummer-- on the contrary, he's an excellent player. But the standards he has to live against being in Crimson (with his predecessors/contemporaries at the kit including Bruford, Giles, Wallace... all of whom I feel were unbelievably good, especially the first...) are extraordiarily high, and I don't feel he meets them. Maybe after Projekct 4 I'll change my mind. I don't know. Marshall Wise said: > I bet you haven't heard "Damage". Pat's drumming there leaves me > breathless. Regardless, what makes you think Fripp is > clueless? Doesn't > he want to make the best music possible? I found PM's drumming on _Damage_ to be intrusive and somewhat "pushy", really the only good word I can think of. On "Every Colour You Are", I was really annoyed by how forced his part sounded. Now mind you, I'm a big fan of Sylvian and his brother, drummer Steve Jansen, who played that part initially, so that could influence my opinion. Jansen is the anthesis of much of what I hear in music with regard to the percussive arts. Love his stuff. Far and away one of my favorites. I'd never want to see him in Crimson though, it just wouldn't work. > I bet Belew doesn't know or care one bit about Guitar > Craft. If he's an imitator, he's not doing a very good job. This one I find myself in complete agreement with. Belew is one of the most phenomenal and inventive musicians I've ever heard. He was definitely influenced by Fripp's playing, but that doesn't make him an imitator. Someone else mentioned that Fripp's motivations with this drum issue may regard noise by acoustic drums v. near silence from electronic drums. I found this to be intriguing. Not sure if it's accurate, but definitely got my mind thinking. And as an aside, my dream drummer in Crimson would've been Ed Blackwell, but he died a few years ago, and I'd be curious if he was aware of Fripp's music (as an aside for those who don't know, Ed Blackwell was a jazz drummer who played with free jazz god Ornette Coleman back in the 50s and 60s, as well as with numerous other superb musicians, including Ornette's former sideman and IMHO divine trumpeter Don Cherry..). Blackwell's incredible use of nearly polyrhythms would have worked well with Fripp I think. mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:18:32 -0700 From: spike Subject: ProjeKct Four in SanFran Hi there, We have our tickets to the show at 7th Note in San Francisco? Does anybody want to meet before? and Can anybody email me (privately of course) information about the place (i.e. should we arrive really early for best standing positions, or should I consider 6" heels on elevator shoes)? Take it easy, Spike -hoping Bill plays at ProjeKct Five ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:26:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Hampton LeGrand III Subject: Fripp's favourites Howdy! I'm a huge fan of Bartok, especially his quartets, and I'm interested to know which of them are Mr. Fripp's favourites, or which influenced him the most. The quartets are all quite different, so I would imagine some would appeal to him more than others. Any thoughts? _ _ Rob LeGrand III Class of 1998 computer science | | | honky98 at aggies dot org Texas A&M progressive rock | | | cricket http://www.aggies.org/honky98/ Republican Party | | | "The world is tragic to those who feel and comic to those who think." --- Robert Walpole ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:10:06 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Wakeman + >From: Suzanne Cerquone > >He'll be busy enough >when he releases his much-anticipated "Return to the Centre >of the Earth" album in January and tours afterwards, perhaps >even in the US. Are there *really* people in the world who "much anticipate" a new Rick Wakeman album? Eek. The new Bill Berry-less REM album is "much anticipated." Hole's Celebrity Skin WAS "much anticipated." The upcoming Nine Inch Nails album is probably the most "much anticipated" release of all. But...RICK WAKEMAN? Heh heh. Regarding Bruford: personally, I'd have been a lot more disappointed if Belew left. I can cope with a Bruford-less KC. I'd say something to the effect of "we're only talking about a *drummer* here," but I know that would be unforgivable heresy in this chops-obsessed, complexity-is-everything realm. So I won't. ;) Eb, rarely in the pocket np: Frank Black & the Catholics ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 13:44:16 +0000 From: "p. little/n. green" Subject: synthophobia hello, Why all this worry about Crimson using electronic instruments? I suspect that more traditionally oriented folk are scared by the prospect of yet more synthesizers and high technology invading the Court. Someone (I forget who) once said that "synthesizers are so easy to play badly, and so difficult so play well. I believe this to be essentially correct, most especially in these times of a rapidly accelerating profusion of digital audio technology. It is so easy for anyone to walk up to a $800 Roland machine, or similar, hit the appropriate button, and this series of (initially) amazingly complex sound issues from the speakers, with no effort on the part of the "player". It is so easy and cheap now to make an impressive amount of chirping and bleeping with a PC sequencer and a rack of midi kit that any kid, even with little musicality can make an album of sorts in his bedroom. There is so much dumbed down synthesized ear candy on the radio and in the clubs...lots of icing, and very little cake. It is a convenient and cheap way of manufacturing pop(ular) music/muzak for instant gratification, and rapid boredom, like a kid with a new toy, quickly discarding it for the next. But is that the fault of synthesizers? No absolutely not. It doesn't matter on what sort of instrument you write perform or record music. Musical instruments, since mankind first stretched skins over hollow tree trunks, have always reflected the state of the art in science and technology. The synthesizer is no exception, and with its infinite sonic palette has more potential for both wonderful (and horrendous) music than any instrument ever made. And with the massive processing power of future DSP devices, synthesizers will correspondingly have yet greater sonic possibilities. But to get the best out of any synth, no matter what controller is used, requires time, effort , patience and practise; any fool can pull up a factory preset....which is the equivalent of a beginning pianist plonking about with one finger. So it is hardly surprising that the mere mention of synthesizers can raise some folks' hackles...and for good reason!! If the intent is sincere, and the writer is compelled to share it, then the spark will shine through any amount of big budget production, or lack thereof. It doesn't matter if it's via a $5 kid's ukelele, a drums-bass-guitar trio or a roomfull of midi modules and samplers. And when a group of experienced, skilled and creative players get together, the possibilities for something of musical scope and substance are boundless...things can really happen...in theory at least. Is that not why an electronic offering from Crimson is so welcome in these days of endless market driven corporate baby-formula electronica? I am really looking forward to hearing something else that electronics have to offer, other than yet more of those predictably militaristic16ths-hihat, 4-on-the-floor TR808 beatbox rhythms, and nasal filter sweeps. With popular electronic music remaining stubbornly in its infancy, barely out of the cradle, the possibilities are endless. nik ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:52:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Jonathan Subject: RF as non-leader of KC > From: Scott Steele said: > > >Another point of interest is Fripp's continued denial about > being the leader of King Crimson. > > I'd like to see Robert address this again in a way where we > might understand what it means to deny being the leader of a > band that would not exist without him. If you will indulge me, I would like to give it a shot: 1) RF has been very consistent in stating that he is not the "leader" of KC. 2) My own experince in "leading" has been in local volunteer organizations (two different organizations over a space of 12 years). 3) Often, though everyone sees me as leader, I am concentrating my effort in creating circumstances which (I hope) will induce small fits of creativity and initiative in my volunteers. This saves me having to do all the thinking and generates ideas that I would not have had on my own. 4) Due to a personal tendency to cave in to peer-pressure, there is no item 4. 5) Human nature being what it is, I expect that RF has had similar experiences in his collaborations. 6) Often, I find myself saying "I am not in charge". This is a recognition of the limitations inherent in working with volunteers, who must often be cajoled and can leave at any time. 7) Human nature being what it is, I expect that RF similarly recognizes that he is in no position to dictate precisely what KC does at any given time. 8) RF's claim to non-leadership may be a recognition of this. 9) Perhaps it would be accurate to say that RF is the facilitator of KC. Yours, Jonathan Krall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 19:27:45 -0500 From: Carl F Rudorf Subject: Re: Crimso Drummers The notion that Crim cannot function w/out Bruford is silly. Hadn't the band several other drummers prior to him? Though Bruford is in fact one of my favorite percussionists, his opportunities will not be lessened by going, as it were, on sabbatical. And, doubtless, we -- his fans -- will not suffer in the least bit. After all, there's always Earthworks. As for nominations to fill his seat . . . has nobody any recollection of the tremendous drumming of Michael Giles? Imagine him and Bruford sharing the stage . . . WOW! salaam carl rudorf kcmo ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 98 21:29:13 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: RE: KC '95 Letterman appearance My one really Crimsonlike memory of seeing them(the Thrank tour double trio) on TV, was when David Letterman still was on "that other network", on at 1 am in the morning. It just so happened that night, it was predicted to occur in the Northeastern part of the United States a big Nor'easter. The Nor'easter hit and the wind was howling outside and the bay in our backyard rose 2-3 feet above normal. Then there was a pause.....And so around 1:30 am that March, I believe Knig Crimson appeared on the show!! I long forgot what they played but I happen to identify KC with that big Nor'easter. addendum to BB. KC has existed before BB was in the band, admittedly he is one of my favorite drummers also, but to fill an entire digest with reaction to a conjecture? KC will even go on without his tremendous talents. campaigner at usa dot net James Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:00:45 -0500 From: "EJ Plumb" Subject: EVOLVE...//Krim does TRUE Crimsoids would care less if Bruford was absent for awhile. Remember what Mr. Fripp (and KRIM 1,2,3,4,5, etc....) has painted thru the sonics. Crimso is not Crimso without inner angst, flux and change!!! GET A CLUE!! Masterpieces evolve with each incarnation The studio paranoia of Schizoid Man from the FIRST CUT of the FIRST and DEBUT disc reveales the core of the KING... It is of itself (the sound and music are replicated and enhanced and becomes a writhing and living creature in the numerous "Boots" I have heard.) From Phase to Phase and Incarnation to Re=Incarnation to Rebirth to almost a-sexual reproduction where 3 or 4 come from ONE union is how CRIM may be viewed..) ALL is ONE !! The previous are part of the present and the change of today becomes the good of tomorrow.. EVOLVE on KRIM!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 01:25:16 -0500 From: "Justin A. Kolodziej" <4wg7kolodzie at vms dot csd dot mu dot edui> Subject: Maybe no more Bruford, but a potential replacement 4. It's been a very long time since my last post, but I think I've finally found something to comment on, although it is the same old thing everyone else is talking about, i.e. no Mr. Bruford in KC. 4. I know that most of you might find this very controversial, but I might have an idea as to why Bill may be out of the band. 4. Two words... William Reiflin. 4. Of course this sounds completely bizarro and wacko. King Crimson and William Reiflin come from such impossibly different worlds of music... KC from the "make it incredibly complex and impossibly perfect" "progressive" school of music, and William Reiflin from the "Bang your head against the wall until one of the other cracks" school known as "industrial rock". Clearly the two are incompatible with one another. Mr. Reiflin may be great in his area, but somehow I don't think that William is in the same league of musicianship as the members of KC. Even though Willie has taken part in many side projects, and the members of KC have also taken part in many, many other projects, Reiflin's have always been in the "industrial" category, whatever that may mean -- heavy metal you can dance to, perhaps -- while the (current) members of KC have never benn afraid to try different categories of rock. 4. And yet there is evidence to suggest that Fripp wants to work with William in the future. There is the Ten Seconds album which features both Fripp and Reiflin wailing away. How the heck would that happen? Why would they both agree to work on this project? It just doesn't make sense. 4. Furthermore, and most importantly, the there is "The Repercussions of Angelic Behaviour" which features ProjeKCt 2 with Adrian replaced by Reiflin. This is even more ludicrous then the two working together on someone else's project: one on them must have called the other to propose the project, unless this is actually Tre's little project. And judging from the DGM News it seems to be a bit more than a one-time experiment; Fripp and Reiflin have talked about the marketing of the album, which it seems I'll have to pay $96 for :). This most likely is the way Fripp does business, but there is the slim chance there is something more... Anyway one can only wonder what else they talked about during their chat. 4. Also, Fripp wants Bruford to write pieces for three drummers, as he writes in DGM News. I assume 100% of you know that means Adrian, Bill, and Pat. But what if -- and this is admittedly highly unlikely -- "three drummers" means three drummers plus two guitars plus two stick-like things? That means KC needs another drummer, and based on current events, William Reiflin seems like the next in line for the job. Or, even more radically, Bruford writes but doesn't perform -- Sinfield and Palmer-James wrote lyrics without singing -- same thing except that perhaps no one but he could perform what he writes. 4. Of course, I submit all this without making any clam that any of it is in the least bit accurate. For all I know, Fripp could fire all the drummers and play MIDI drums on his guitar. I think it is safe to say, however, that the chances of William Reiflin joining King Crimson are greater than zero, perhaps even significantly. As always, Fripp and company call the shots, while we only stand back and observe and comment upon those choices. 4. There are 4s to be found everywhere -- but the one true 4 is forever elusive. Justin A. Kolodziej -- Your lucky number has been disconnected. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:00:38 EDT From: CURUGROTH at aol dot com Subject: Interpreting Lizard etc. This is a response to some interesting speculative interpretation of early KC albums posted by Jon Green in Digest #545: Green suggested that Prince Rupert, the fictional protagonist of Lizard, might represent a real historical figure, Frederick II. Here is another lead to follow: Many years ago, in some mega-multi-volume history of the Catholic Church, I ran across a reference to a certain Prince Ruprecht associated with an organization known as The League of the Lizard, which, if memory serves (and it may serve poorly indeed), was a group of Teutonic knights doing the bloody work of the Church in Prussia (15thc. maybe?). More likely, however, Lizard is simply allegorical, and the quasi-realistic historical allusions are a cover for more of the kind of indoor games Sinfield played in the lyric for the song "In the Court of the Crimson King." (In case this rather obvious observation hasn't found its way to elephant talk yet: Sinfield was the yellow jester who didn't play but gently pulled the strings and smiled as the puppets danced . . . which was why he was subsequently slammed in "The Great Deceiver") In this context, Green's clever suggestion that Rupert may actually represent Fripp (Rupert being a German equivalent of Robert) is intriguing. Greg Karl NY NY curugroth at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:35:44 +0800 (WST) From: tout at arch dot curtin dot edu dot au (Errol Tout) Subject: Golden Mean Proportions,Fibonacci Numbers, Harmonic Proportions To Mr. Robert Fripp and other ETers: I am currently involved in a Masters degree involving Music and Architecture. The project involves the common constructs, with a view to designing a building based on a piece of music. I am an Architect, and on a good day I feel I begin to act like musician might - on a bad day. I have had involvement in two Guitar Craft courses, from which I am still recovering. The translation of one artform to another is termed "Synesthetics" and has been in people's minds since Euclid and Pythagoras, and various projects have been undertaken in this area. In an interview article, Robert mentioned that in the future he was interested in working with th Fibonacci Series [ he did not mention that Bartok used the Fibonacci numbers as proportioning system within his later compositions, but I feel there is a very good chance he is aware of that]. In the same article Robert made reference to Harmonic Proportion and the Golden Mean. I have scoured all the articles I can find and I have not been able find any further references to these areas of interest. Does anyone have any further information as to whether Robert has done any further work in this area? Errol H. Tout. Architect, Lecturer Chair Science + Technology Stream Enrolments Officer Generally Cool Dude! Department of Architecture Curtin University of Technology P.O.Box U 1987 Perth, Western Australia 6001 Ph.(08)92663843 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 02:28:53 PDT From: "George Khouroshvili" Subject: Re: Brufordless Crimson Hello, everyone! I suppose we all better stop the discussion on this topic. 1. First of all, I don't think we have any right to dictate the artists what to play, with whom, on which instruments, etc. We all are acting as if we are in the band and can make decisions on its future. Mr. Fripp read our posts and sometimes replies - that's very kind of him. But he doesn't owe us anything - so don't try to press (Bring back BB!, Please no B-less KC! and so on) unless you think that the only reason for KC existance is to serve your own cultural needs. 2. Yes, I feel some pity because of a strong possibility that Bill won't participate on the next KC release (he was a member of my two favorite incarnations and my favorite drummer too). I think that many fans felt the same after 1974 break-up. But later we've got the new and great King. I think that Fripp proved many times before that every reformation, sound changing etc. of KC were for good. Why don't you believe that the new reinvention of Crimson will present us with with some great material in future? 3. I think we should wait for the new album and only than we'll be able to judge was the Bill's absence for bad or not. As for Bruford's future plans (sorry, the idea of joining Yes seems absurd, IMO)I think that maybe he'll play with U.K. during the next tour (as far as I'm concerned the new album is almost finished) and of course he may have some plans on Earthworks. So let us just change the topic. All best wishes, George ===If I fall moondust will cover me...=== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:42:03 -0400 From: "Hickson, Robert [PRI]" Subject: Ranting at the edge... With all of the talk concerning the merits of various Crimso's - within and outside of the band - I wonder if some ETers even consider past discussions concerning audient expectations. The passion with which some readers approach the band must distract from them hearing the music with "innocent ears." Like photography and bootlegging, I suspect these distractions prove to be equally significant in undermining any KC performance (or in the least, dissuading them from live performance). Although Fripp has been an important "medium" in tuning many of us in to the Crimson King, I truly believe that neither he nor any other player is necessary for the existence of Crimson. The Crimson King was present before Robert Fripp and will continue after he is gone. Could somebody please give me a "hallelujah"! Listen closely when there is nary a Crimso around and you just may hear the Crimson King smile. Your pal, Bert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:54:08 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: In defence of V-Drums In ET 546 Matt Nolan thought: > For P2, Adrian did play them in a very mechanical manner, > both in terms of the sounds, and the playing, but I think > this was deliberate. Plus, of course, on Space Groove he'd had them, what, a *whole day* was it, but certainly less than a week, before they recorded a double CD with them? Wotta guy! (and certainly not a mere Fripp imitator, Greg G.) Pete. -- Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:24:09 -0400 From: Dave Lane Subject: Re: all things bruford In ET546, rspeak <"rspeak"@erols.com> wrote... >Basically, Bill didn't want to keep a beat for the rest of >the band to jam to, so Fripp kept a rhythm so Bill could be >free to improvise. This led to a below average ( by >Crimson's standards) album. After they desolve the band, >Bill doesn't have a problem keeping the beat for 20 year old >Yes songs !!! And eventually he gets to play Allan White's >songs. Maybe this time he could reform U.K. and play Terry >Bozzio's songs! Caesar's Palace Blues !!! Any album that has "Nuages", "Industry" and "No Warning" on it cannot be considered below-average, especially when you consider the album that preceded it. As part of the touring repertoire of the original BB/AH/JW/EJ UK, "Caesar's Palace Blues" was played by Bruford before it was ever played by Bozzio. As a hired drummer, Bozzio did not have any compositional input into UK, whereas Bruford, one of the band's founders, did. I would like to hear the original version of "Sleepless" with the Bruford drum tracks intact. --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:31:15 EDT From: ErneMar at aol dot com Subject: Be thankful Doesn't anyone on here remember that music is meant to be enjoyed, and not criticized and overanalyzed to death? All this talk about who should or shouldn't be in Crimson (read: the Bruford thing is old already, people) is pretty damn silly, if you ask me. Here's a novel concept: BE THANKFUL for the music and enjoy it if you like it. Anything other than that is just unnecessary and intrusive to the music and the musicians playing it. Now back to the DGM site... Ernie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 10:45:33 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: Adrian Belew: Still Reigning Rhino Electric Cat Guitarist Regarding Bill Bruford's exclusion from a possible 1999 KC (which sounds like its still very much in the air; we're currently speculating on future Crimson line-ups from the perspective of October 1998; what the future will actually bring remains unknown), one thing really get my goat, and my kid too: This is the denigration of KC musicians other than Robert Fripp. What really gets my blood cooking like boiled rice, is the denigration of Trey Gunn, Pat Mastelotto, Tony Levin, and especially Adrian Belew. Since the formation of King Crimson in 1969, Adrian is the first guitarist that Robert has been able to work with in the band, in integrating lines for two guitars, and whose contributions to KC in terms of song composition have become a vital part of Discipline/Thrak-era Crimson. Adrian's standing a one of the finest guitarists in rock is further collaborated in his solo work. I would suggest relistenings of "Lone Rhino," "Desire Caught by the Tail," "Mr. Music Head," "Young Lions" "Op Zop Too Wah," "Guitar as Orchestra," and his two acousitc albums. Over a career dating 29 years, Robert Fripp has established himself as one of rock `n' roll's finest guitarists and composers, in a league with such musicians as the late Jimi Hendrix, John McClauglin, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Peter Green, David Gilmour, Steve Howe, David Torn, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Vernon Reed, Eric Johnson, Kirk Hammett, Patty Larkin, Jimmy Page, Al Dimeola (who'll I'll see at the end of this month, in the same beer club where the ProjeKct Two concert took place), Richard Thompson, Pete Townshend, Carlos Santana, Stevie Ray Vaughan, and Rory Gallager, among others. Adrian's contribution to the art of guitar and song, if but a step down from Robert, is as significant as any guitarist's work these past 18 years. They had a copy of "Damage" at the local record store for thirty dollars. What is this album like? All best, Mike I www.oeonline.com/~erish ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:39:33 -0700 From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: Re:Drofurb and other drivel The good, the bad and the ugly on E-T: Ian Moffat's post regarding Wakeman was informative, and I'm glad that someone out there is saying that just because music has a religious bent, it should still be judged on the merits of the tunes rather than one's (often negative) predisposition regarding religion. Jamie Lack's post was a hoot: << There is more self indulgent Bullshit in the posts on the Bruford\acoustic drums thread than in all of the cattle yards in Australia. Little in the way of informed opinion, even less in fact, you posters really occupied a lot of ET space with selfish rants. >> Jamie (Jamie, Jamie) - take it easy there, big shooter. When ET needs the posting police, we'll give you a call. Bruford's leaving seems to be a suitable discussion topic, and I see no reason to whine about subjective opinions supplied. When asking posters to make a careful assessment of their post, it would be good if you did the same. A quick note to lindz regarding 'Zanadu' - I think Eb's issue was the spelling, not the reference. Seattle Crimpersons - give us the skinny on the P4 performances ASAP. I'm thinking a move to the west coast is necessary to get to see more of ProjeKCts, Soundscapes and CGT. Regards, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:42:25 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: pocket, Tori & Aaron >From: "Nick Smith" > >It looks as though we're in mortal danger of >resurrecting the leprous corpse of Bruford lacking >groove/feel/swing/pocket/belt/matching tie & braces debate. >Enough already! No, because I believe Toby declared the phrase "in the pocket" banned from ET. Or is this just wishful thinking on my part? >From: Lindsay Planer >Subject: Re: Zanadu > >>"Zanadu"? Ouch. Lost some credibility points right from the >>start. ;) > >I hope that the author realizes that I am refering NOT to >the film or song but the literary and historical references >of Kubla Kahn's Zanadu. Not, ELO or Oliva Newton_John's Um, that's strike two. ;) (I ain't crazy about "Kahn" and "Oliva," neither. "ELO" was perfectly executed, however.) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:44:59 -0500 From: John Ott Subject: Bill ,YES and Wakeman >From: James Dusewicz > >This could mean: > >1) Anderson/Bruford/Wakeman/Howe + Squire = True Classic Yes!!! >2) Anderson/Bruford/Wakeman/Howe project > (Augmented W/Yes backup musicians.) >3) Some kind of Yes oriented splinter project > This is very speculative and also wrong. speculative: As far as Bill joining Yes, Alan White is/has been Yes's drummer since Bill left. Yes is touring with Alan and that is that. Yes has done OK with Alan at the kit. (athough I would agree they peaked with Bill and "Close to the Edge" but have released some good material without Bill) The AWBH thing happened because Yes was splintered at the time. It is not now. (other than Wakeman quiting) Maybe Bill and Rick could get together but I doubt it. Wrong: Rick Wakeman's Christian faith had nothing to do with leaving Yes. He was making Christian Music while still in Yes. He played Material from "Tales from Topographic Oceans" on the " Keys To Ascension" live dates even though he had philosophical reasons not too. He felt the music was worth playing despite the material's confict with his faith. He left Yes because 1. He felt very strongly that the studio material on Keys to Ascension II was great and wanted that released as a studio only, and to tour and promote it immediately. He did not want the new material linked with the Classic Yes live tracks. 2. Anderson and others (managers) were not in agreement on point 1. and released it as studio/live Keys II. 3. Delays in touring caused by too many managers and lawyers and lack of direction in Yes caused him to leave in frustration. Rick has quit Yes several times and seems to come back when the Music/Timing is right. His young russian replacement has not been made a full member of Yes yet. Back to KC Bill is not out of Crimson forever. He may not be currently involved with Projects, but that could change at any time. I've enjoyed Bill's playing outside of Crimson (BLUE, Earthworks) and I'm sure I will continue to until the double trio reforms. I believe that it will with or without acoustic drums. later John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:14:16 -0700 From: Scott Steele Subject: stuff >And for this time, I want to feel "modern" and talk to the screen. Chris I enjoyed your feverish post. You talked to the screen, and your words were not too carried away. >At first, I thought that without BB, KC would be debilitated; a mere shadow of its former self. After some soul searching, I realized that this is somewhat closed minded and not really in keeping with my own views about what music is or can be. Bravo, this is a healthy reversal of opinion. >what happened to the drummer on the court of the crimson king, is he on any other albums? he is the best drummer Ive ever heard. ed He doesn't play kit drums on Ghost Dance but it is a fine album nonetheless. Kind of ambient in nature. Much what you would expect from two percussionists (Giles, Muir) and a tape loop guy (Cunningham). >Was the UK-lineup something like a post-Fripp Crim He was offered the post and declined it. >and was the absence of Fripp himself the reason why they finally failed? There was a Holdsworth/Bruford axis and a Wetton/Jobson axis; it would have been interesting to see how the politics of the band might have been different with Bob instead of Al. >I'm Jury, and I LOVE Industry (and Book of Saturdays and....) ;-) I would love to see the revival of Industry. What a fine piece of music. Theme and variations. Just like Fracture. >it's a five-years old question: did someone in the earth know what a "two-fingered levi'd sister" do mean? and what about "...and just unzipped at her"? Two-fingered levi'd sister (hippy girl holds up peace sign) Said Peace. I stopped, I kissed her. Said, I'm a male resister. I smiled and just unzipped her. (Obviously not very resistant.) Rock and roll was different then! >Maybe this time he could reform U.K. and play Terry Bozzio's songs! Caesar's Palace Blues !!! The more powerful versions of CPB and Danger Money were rendered during the time UK was a four-piece band, before their second album was released. I submit that Bozzio was playing Bruford's parts on much of Danger Money. >I also suspect BB's style has more to do with his possible exclusion from the new album than his drum choice. Why would anyone think this when Fripp has posted on the DGM website exactly what all the considerations are, and when one takes into consideration that they have been playing together for many, many years? - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:00:04 +0100 From: Calyx/Big Bang Subject: Bruford On the subject of Bruford out of Crimson: - First of all, although Bruford is probably what I like best about the current King Crimson, I must say that I trust Robert Fripp's vision and what he thinks is best for KC to "progress" again. I tend to find "Thrak" is not much more (except for the brief double-trio sequences) than a mixture of 70s and 80s crimso; I'd like to hear something newer. I don't especially like electronic drums nor the idea of Adrian Belew playing them rather than Bruford, but what the hell? Am I supposed to know better than the guys who actually ARE playing the music? Or conceptualizing it? - Secondly, I recently was in contact with David Torn about the B.L.U.E. project. He mentioned that no further activities were planned for that group beyond the upcoming Autumn tour, mainly because of Bruford's desire to concentrate on the new Earthworks line-up. An ABWH reunion or something like that seems *completely* out of the question!!! Aymeric Leroy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:53:39 -0400 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: Drummers I can not offer an 18 point diatribe of spurious statements, but I can offer an opinion. While I am not enthusiastic about the possibility of a Bill-less KC, as one of the fortunate people to have been able to see the Sylvian & Fripp tour, I feel we have nothing to worry about--Pat M. is an excellent drummer. Really. A very sensuous player. Robert (Who is so looking forward to P4 at the 7th Note) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:04:56 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Soundscapes: Box; 1999 I. When DGM released "November Suite", they offered, for a limited time, a box to house the Soundscapes Trilogy. The box is nice enough (afterall, it was free): it's simply an open ended, white, cardboard box with some of John Miller's paintings on the front and back, and a list of the CDs on the spine. I doubt that there are any more of them available; as far as I know, only DGM every carried it. II. The "new" 1999 Soundscape, which will be released January 1999, is an expanded, two CD version of the original release. I assume that some of the material will be repeated, but, of course, a good deal of the material will be new. It is possible that further Soundscapes will be available as alternate Club selections, a prospect worth $96.00 US to me in itself. III. Finally, to the person who refered to the Soundscapes as "duds" and then resigned from ET because it "bugs" him, your resignation is accepted. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:22:26 -0700 From: Timothy Edwards Subject: Dynamic It's interesting to see the dynamic taking place on this list. Fripp has been posting detailed entries on his site regarding his work and the work of King Crimson, etc. Reading through the posts here leaves me with the feeling that many on the list feel the need to (attempt to) indirectly direct the course of KC through this list as a result of being more informed of KC's inner activities. Why is this so? Should we just let it be and be happy that we have inner access to the ongoing development of this band(s)? Is it just chit-chat (apologies to AB) and wish-lists here? Or are we providing a different form of non-live audience feedback to the performer(s)/composer(s)? I side with the former since I don't see a true reciprocation. Y tu? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:38:08 +0200 From: "enrique" Subject: brufford's role in king crimson hello folks ! i think bill is the better krimson drummer and for those they say he is too spare of the beat , i respond that : hear well his drumming in indiscipline or thela hun jinjeet and you'll discover his fine art of suggesting the beat even if he breaks it . if i talk about eighties theme it's because i think bb was more involved in kc . i saw them in 95 i believe and the impression that bill produced me is that he was borred ... (il se faisait chier- in french) . it was not a good idea for me to associate an other drummer to bill : he do not needs and crimson don't too . sorry for my bad english ! bye ! enrique kik at infomaniak dot ch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:39:46 -0400 From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Amazon.com -- Reviews of CD's from Artists and Fans Did you know you can go to Amazon.com's web-site and submit a review of a CD? They also accept comments and information about CD's from the artists too! David K UNDO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:11:01 -0700 (PDT) From: yoshifumi arikawa Subject: Drumless Crimson? ( from japan with love) I was surprised to read the ET and know Bill was going to quit the 1999 version of KC. Reading some articles on ET, most of the Crims seems to be disappointed at it. But how about this? It is drumless Crimson - Fripp, Belew, Levin, Gunn - first drumless lineup in the history of KC.(Sorry, PAT!) And I hope them to play songs like "Cage". And when they want drum sounds, Belew can play V-drum. 21st century is coming. Let them do some evolution? What do you think about this idea? It seems to be interesting to hear "21st century..." by this formation. You do not llike this? WEll..... Yoshifumi Arikawa == ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:39:45 +0100 From: Bopster Subject: Review of Bopster Dear ETers, As We've all read, ET as a forum is more about the members of ET than anything else, and a review of an album says more about the reviewer than about the album. Thus, I have decided to review myself in the light of the six first pieces off "Absent lover" So, here goes: _A_present_audient_ Smiling, as he sits by his feeble stereo equipment the earnest, young, long-haired man he cranks up the volume to a comfortable, but powerful level. The darkly hovering soundscapes raise an introspective look to his face. As Fripp and Tlev continue their duet he thinks about the frustrating inability of the band he is in, as a vocalist, to get a non-funky improv going. All thoughts of this, however is wiped away by belews stunt-guitarism, which he, as an enthusiast of things odd and peculiar is intrigued with. But then: wooff. His eyes open wide, saliva production doubles and a mad scientists' smile inhabits his face: Larks' tongues in aspic, part III has begun and he is loving every note, especially the drumming which seems to share his sense of humour (illogical [read: unorthodox] premisses lead to perfectly logical [read weird] consequenses). A moment later Bopster is funking around his untidy room (Bopster is an undisciplined person), while thela rocks out. He tries to analyze this music, but is too busy shaking his shoulders. Patience is not one of this audient's biggest virtues. But, when listening to Crimson, he doesn't need so much of that, since almost every note excites him/intrigues him. The extraordinary powerchording and wailing on Red he loves, but even more so in the heavy-metal, kick-ass, rock your guts out version on B'Boom. Matte Kudesai again gives Mr. B a chance to contemplativeness, but, in this version fails to really make hinm intrested. Industry, again, gives him a chance to excperience the oxymoronic and a bit paradoxal qualities he loves in music, language, art and life. "Nothing is as it seems. Neither is it otherwise" he thinks to himself, wondering if he has quoted the Guitar Craft aphorism correctly, or, indeed, if there even is such a guitar craft aphorism. As you may have noted, his memory isn't very good. Where, were we, ah yes, the oxymorons: the mechanical and merciless working of the "rythm-section" contrasted with the beautiful soaring of the quitar-synths. Ah. He wipes a tear off his cheek and goes off to spend another day in the lovely world of finnish education. Yours, Bop ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:03:27 +0200 From: Rainer Plagge Subject: re: please no brufordless crimso hi there, the more mails I read to this topic, the less I understand them. In fact I find myself often tempted to skip them after a few lines. The reason for this is: Why should I, the listener, complain about the lives of the musicians? The decisions they make are there own and I hope, they find out what they truely want to do. I am interested in the music and the people, allthough I have rare possibilities to meet the musicians. So I like to read about them and if possible their own writings- especially fripps linernotes and letters. So I prefer to share his ideas and his thinking as far as possible in this medium. On the other hand I am looking forward to the recordings and the new material which will come out in projeCKts or not. I don't mind if Bill Bruford is part of this or not, because it's his own decision, and I accept that without any further thinking of it. I do admit, the idea feels strange, that Robert Fripp e.g. would not be part of the next KC-line-up, but even that would not be a sacrilege in my eyes. All this has its own energy and lives with the playing and living musicians. So I feel very pleased to take the small part as the loving and compassionate listener. Answers and comments on this are very welcome, Rainer ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #547 ********************************