Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #545 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 545 Wednesday, 7 October 1998 Today's Topics: Re: Please, No Bill-Less Crimso Mastelotto Crimson without Bruford = Crimson Electronic impulses Expanded DGM product line Prince Rupert and The Prisoner A question to Montreal's KC fans... Bruf going back to Yes? NO! Brufordless.. Crimson? Detroit Elephant Talkers Bruford and technology Two Long Posts Mudslinging Charity rethinking Crimson-Bruford Bill and Bob Bruford and The Prisoner 21st Century Schizoid Fans Re: interview Bruford in Yes again? enough bruford worship Bartok, Bruford and other banter True Classic Yes!!; what we/the artists want; Pat not good ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:05:36 -0400 From: Jon Quint Subject: Re: Please, No Bill-Less Crimso I think that Greg's idea of Fripp and Bruford as the two musical "giants" of KC is entirely correct. If one thinks of the great (as in both technical proficiency *and* creativity) guitarists in the world then Robert Fripp clearly is on a very short list. Similarly, if one were to list the most creative percussionists in the world, then, well, I don't think anyone else even belongs on the list with Bruford! Yet you can't say that about anyone else in KC. Certainly Levin is a trememdous talent, but he plays only a supporting role in the music. The other members, excellent musicians as they may be, are simply not in the same class as messrs. Fripp and Bruford. This is why the absence of Bruford (or Fripp) would be a major disappointment to me personally, and perhaps to many other KC fans! But yet it seems that any such fan disappointment is of little or no concern to Fripp. He appears to be most interested in "pushing the envelope" musically, in an intellectual yet emotional vein; he seems to care little about public opinion regarding his musical direction. (He does, however, care about public opinion of his ethics in the music *business* for which he deserves a great deal of respect!). Fripp's heart is clearly "in the moment" and there's no room there (for him) for "historic" KC music. In fact, I think he's working so hard on the DGM projects only because we KC fans demand it (with our spending $) and he is trying to please us; his studio work doesn't, in his mind, compromise him as an artisist. However, I don't believe we'll hear him playing much of this archival music, because he only wants to create and perform new music as *he* feels it. And I for one can respect that, even if it means I won't be able to experience live performances of some of the greatest modern music even played. Fripp is at the top of his game, and as such he should be allowed to call the shots for himself -- even if it isn't the call that his fans want! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:45:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Mastelotto In ET 543 Greg Guillot writes: > (4) Pat (although very nice) simply does not fit within KC > as its sole drummer -- he simply isn't good enough. Tony > Williams might fit, but he's dead. Narada Michael Walden > could fit. The old Phil Collins (Brand X days) would fit. > But not Pat. Sorry. So much for no Number 4's, huh? Oh well. Those who doubt Pat's talent might care to check out his drumming on two of the tracks on Trey Gunn's _The Third Star_, or his work (if I remember correctly) on the eponymous CD by Prometheus. Some good stuff there. Anxiously awaiting further crimson surprises, Justin ------------------------------ Subject: Crimson without Bruford = Crimson Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:37:01 -0400 From: David Todd And conversely, Crimson with Bruford = Crimson. Monsieur Fripp has stated several times the King Crimson is a way of working, and a particular music. It's doesn't rest in him, but as he is the most experienced with it, he is most likely to recognize it. Bill is a fine drummer; my favorite even. But his inclusion doesn't define Crimson. It's just that he is one of the few drummers capable of playing Crimson well. Pat is also capable of playing Crimson, though perhaps he is not going to be playing Bruford parts. Let's not be arrogant and declare him not capable; *we* not being close enough to him, can hardly judge, and, I dare say, those who are wouldn't. I think Monsieur Fripp stated clearly in his web diaries. Brufords interests at this moment do not match Fripps vision. Should we be shocked? My god, they're changing all the time!! HOW SHALL WE COPE?!??!?! Cope. If they never changed, they'd suck. -- Hacksaw = David Charles Todd GTEI-BBNT = Hacksaw's Employer Hacksaw's Opinions != GTEI-BBNT's Opinions Linux understands you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 18:23:08 -0700 From: "Matthew S. Mueller" Subject: Electronic impulses To all: Sorry if my previous impulsive comments on fututre KC endeavors involving electronics caused confusion. I did not mean to suggest that KC'99 would be involved in "elctroncia." Rather, my fear is that such a project would be following a musical trend towards electronics, but perhaps a bit "late in the game." V-drums and guitar-synths can certainly open up exciting new possibilities in music, but the problem with electronic music is that it can quickly become dated. The technology is always changing and advancing and what may have sounded new and exciting today can sound old and dated in a matter of a five years (or even less). This is all IMHO: I DO like electronics. For example, I love Depeche Mode and Prodigy. But, I personally enjoy KC as a guitar/drum band that utilizes new and exciting technologies. For example, to me, Red-era Crim utilized the mellotron, but it was the thundering power of the extra-agressive Fripp/Wetton/Bruford trio that was the meat of the band. '81-84 KC featured guit-synths and electronic percussion, but often it was the complex guitar interplay of Fripp and Belew that stole the show. I'm afraid that if technology becomes the primary focus of the next KC, and if Fripp concetrates on making his guitar sound like anything BUT a guitar, the resulting music will not seem to be KC to me, but rather, just another ProjeKCt. This wouldn't be bad! Just a little disappointing. I happen to LOVE Thrak-era Crim -- it was raw and powerful, yet contained, which is amazing for a band with double the normal players! The use of polyrhythms was also something I hoped to see explored further, but you need Billy B. for that! Please, no flames. This is all my own opinion. I'm certain that there are many fans who are excited by the apparent change in sound and direction that Fripp has been alluding to. -Matt Mueller ------------------------------ From: "Kerry Neuville" Subject: Expanded DGM product line Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:48:46 PDT Conversing(?) with my girlfriend the other day, she was describing possible birthday gifts, while I was going on about the "Absent Lover" CD's, she stops and ask, "What is "Tears of a Waiting Man"? There I was, nudged by a notion - DGM toiletries! Tears of a Waiting Man cologne! Elephant Talk lip balm! Sheltering Sky hair gel! WOW! anyway, the idea is there if you want it; no need to thank me, you've done enough already. A fan, hikingartist at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ From: "Jon Green" Subject: Prince Rupert and The Prisoner Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:07:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:24:08 EDT From: FRANKYORK at aol dot com Subject: King Crimson and The Prisoner >Prince Rupert is the evil prince in, surprise surprise, >"The Prisoner of Zenda" Thank you for providing yet another piece to the puzzle. In Lizard, Prince Rupert is indeed an imposter...on several levels: The four Sinfield albums each correspond to an element. ItCotCK=Air, ITWOP=Water, Lizard=Fire and Islands=Earth. Futhermore Sinfield used as his muse for each album a particular Tarot card. ItCotCK=Sun, ITWOP=Temperance and Lizard=Magician. Cirkus is Pete Sinfield's homage to Hermes as he appears on the Magician Tarot card, the magician, the trickster, the Carnival King-the ringmaster. Here, at the outset of the album, we are put on notice that things may not be what they seem. Names and concepts may be intentionally misrepresented. Prince Rupert, the 17th century English noble, was involved in the English Civil War, but this is not the conflict alluded to in "The Battle of Glass Tears". The album's back cover illustration makes it clear this is an east-west conflict (the very union of opposites so integral to the life of Frederick II). Yes, believe it or not, perfectly in keeping with the magician's penchant for sleight of hand the ringmaster's cloak of words, Frederick II reappears in this album under the guise of Prince Rupert. But Pete Sinfield didn't just pull this name, like a rabbit, out of a hat. His decision to use the name "Prince Rupert" to represent Frederick II was quite calculated and deliberate. Rupert and Frederick were both German nobles with a non-German parent. Both found their greatest political and military success in a foreign country ( England and Italy respectively ). Both were adversaries of the Catholic Church. Both engaged in scientific experimentation and are still known for an accomplishment in their particular field of endeavor. Frederick's treatise on Falconry is still in use today. Rupert is known today by his discovery, Prince Rupert's Tears, and his work in mezzotinting. Both are associated with a particular animal. Falcons in Frederick's case, a poodle in Rupert's. As if that were not enough, both are descendants of monarchs named Frederick. Frederick II's grandfather was Frederick I, Barbarossa. Rupert's father was Frederick V, elector palatine of Bohemia. The Bohemian palatinate was inaugurated by the grandfather of Frederick II, the first palatine being Frederick I's half-brother. http://www.mediaspec.com/castles/hberg/history.html Both men lived in apocalyptic times. The Rosicrucians of Rupert's Germany believed a new age was imminent, as did the average medieval citizen of the first half of the thirteenth century. In the spirit of Hermes the trickster, Sinfield's choice for a name also represents a little joke on Fripp: Rupert is the Old German form of the name "Robert". And, finally, as every British schoolboy knows, Prince Rupert is the evil prince in "The Prisoner of Zenda" a novel all about kidnapping the rightful prince and replacing him with an imposter. I think, in the final analysis, the name "Frederick" simply not being aesthetically pleasing, Sinfield found one that was, one that also provided several parallels and connections to his true subject. Would you like to know more? E-mail me for the whole story...so far. - Jon Green jgreen at i-cafe dot net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:43:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Laureti David Subject: A question to Montreal's KC fans... Greetings all, I have a simple question for Montreal KC fans. Is there any canadian KC fans in this forum ??? At the last performance of Projekct TWO at Le Metropolis (July 8th), did Adrian Belew played "Burned by the fire we make" in the accoustic part of the show ?? Just wondering... Please reply via private e-mail. Thanks. David Laureti Universite de Montreal (M.Sc. Science Politique) courriel : lauretid at magellan dot umontreal dot ca "Space is still the place" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:18:57 -0500 From: Suzanne Cerquone Subject: Bruf going back to Yes? NO! >> could it be that Anderson/Squire/Howe/Wakeman/Bruford team might be reassembling? << It's highly doubtful. Yes has always been a band with "power partners or trios" setting the tone. Ages ago it used to be Anderson-Squire-Howe. In the'80s it was Rabin-Anderson-Squire. These days, it's Squire & Billy Sherwood. With their musical vision (if you can call it that, I found "Open Your Eyes" to be the worst Yes CD ever), Alan White is their drummer of choice, not Bruford. Plus, Bruf and Squire can't stand each other. It's worse than probably anything we can imagine between Fripp and Bruf. Truthfully, I think Bruf would rather make music with the Backstreet Boys than Yes these days. He only did it for the money during the Union debacle. He did it for the music for ABWH, but saw that quickly disintegrate into a war between "West Coast Yes" and ABWH two years later. It was no longer about the music, it was about money, and everyone wanted a piece of the action. Lawyers, managers, and the like. >> Wakeman could not join the current Yes tour because of his own desire to tour and write (oh no...) Christian Music.<< That was a lousy excuse used by Anderson and Squire in interviews. Rick's Christian music is a nice career sidebar; he would have gladly joined with Yes again had they provided him with a decent contract. Yes has been poorly managed for the last seven years and have jumped from label to label. Rick didn't want to take such a large risk. On top of that, Rick has recently suffered from ailing health (pneumonia and complications from), and has been advised to take it easy touring-wise. He'll be busy enough when he releases his much-anticipated "Return to the Centre of the Earth" album in January and tours afterwards, perhaps even in the US. --Suzanne <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> The Web North America web site: http://alabanza.com/lothian/ e-mail inquiries: webna at aol dot com <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: "Vytautas Dubniakovas" Subject: Brufordless.. Crimson? Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:38:33 +0200 I can' t resist on Brufordless Crimson discussion. I think most of the ET'ers fall into unnecessary discussion about the "King Crimson" name itself, but not the question of Fripp putting aside collaboration with Bruford. Did you ever think who made the rules on setting the name of King Crimson to the musicians playing in the team? I think it was Mr. Fripp together with EG in the old days. I can even remember some kind of EG people's phrase from magazine talking about changes of staff in KC: "EG is able to supply Mr. Fripp with schizoid musicians" (it is not precise extract, just definition). Remember- Mr. Fripp wanted to name the '80 KC lineup- "Discipline". If to follow this idea, the 90' lineup could have been "Discipline" II (since the main musicians are the same). So what I am trying to say is, that in fact last 2 generations of KC are Mr. Fripp's bands called "King Crimson". And here, I am sorry to say (really sorry, because I think Bruford is great) Fripp has the right of choice. Since ET newsletter has a certain influence on Fripp, then let us talk not the subject of KC name without Bruford, or discuss electronic drumming disadvantages against acoustic, but let us try discussing the loss of great pair- Fripp playing together with Bruford, and doesn't matter if it is KC, or any other formation. Another point. Let us try to look at the problem from another side- what about Bruford, why nobody is offering him to take Fripp's side and play electronic drums? (Somebody said, that he was drumming electronic on Absent Lovers, it was great nothing to add!) I am not musician myself, but of course I can see the difference for real musician to play "synthetic" instrument instead of pure. But Fripp is the master- he has his own band's concept he wants to achieve. At least there is a last point. Fripp was the one to say, that Brufordless Crimson is because of acoustic drumming. Is it the only reason? So if to follow this idea, one day Bruford will be back in the team, if not- there is something else in between, but hopefully not. Vytas Dubniakovas ------------------------------ From: "Michael Irish" Subject: Detroit Elephant Talkers Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 12:39:48 PDT The performance of "Indiscipline" from Absent Lovers not only has my hair standing on end, but walking away. From the Adrian Belew-Bill Bruford percussive introduction, leading Bill to further improvisations, to the full-out guitar-bass-drum assault, this is the Indiscipline of all Indisciplines: complete full-tilt high-blast rocking by KC. If this was the 81-84 KC during their final concert prior to disbanding, then more bands should call it quits (with tape-machines running in posterity mode). If you're gonna go out, then go out with a bang and a blast. I had the boombox out this weekend, a fine cool sun-laden Sunday, listening to Robert Fripp's "The Gates of Paradise." I had volume at maximum overdose, and then it hit me: my neighbor jumped over the fence, punched me in the nose, and told me to turn the noise down; or rather, it was then that the impact of this music hit me, with layers lying upon layers of sound, of the existence of yet more music beyond what is audible, hinted at; not unlike a full symphony orchestra in the diversity and unity of textures possible. I include "The Gates of Paradise" among this year's hit records. Indeed, the more I hear of Soundscapes, the more I wish to hear, a situation not unlike that of first hearing "Court of the Crimson King" (the tune, not the entire album) on the radio, in the middle of the night, and wondering who was this band? I understand Toby's point about the Bartok Quartets. It's a topic that can go on from Digest to Digest, and while entirely fascinating, doesn't pertain to Robert Fripp (the idea occurred when he mentioned the quartets as an early influence during the Epitaph press party), or King Crimson. In return for doing the Chamber Music Society of Detroit homepage, I received subscription tickets for this season. The Majestic Theater was full of Crimsky lovers for the ProjeKct Two concert, so I'm wondering if anybody would like to attend these chamber music concerts, beginning with the Juilliard String Quartet on Sunday. If so, please e-mail me. It was tight, but finally the money was right, and I sent off a money order to DGM for membership in the Collector's Club some twelve days ago. This is something very much to look forward to, especially on those dark days when a KC fix makes the world more livable. Whether or not Bill Bruford participates in a 1999 King Crimson, his presence will still be there; the prescence of one of rock 'n' roll's greatest drummers; the presence of a musician, who beginning with Lark's Tounges, has participated in some of rock's finest recordings, and continues to be an active force with Earthworks. This in no way is meant to slight Pat Mastelotto's playing, which breaks out like all thunder, and who's importance to the band will continue to be made manifest. Mike Rambleonith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:54:52 -0400 (EDT) From: dl462 at freenet dot carleton dot ca (Mark Rehder) Subject: Bruford and technology Hi all, (Lurking for quite a while and enjoying, now it's time to speak!) As a pro drummer myself, I've been following Bill's career for a long time. I know he has said that he doesn't have a computer, doesn't use the Internet, etc. but Bill is not a technophobe, or, at least he didn't used to be. When he started Earthworks, he reversed the concept of most groups in that he was an electric drummer with the rest of the band being primarily acoustic. He used a Simmons SDX computer driven kit, and was on the cover of Modern Drummer magazine with said machine. He was pictured wth MIDI cables draped over his shoulder and waxed poetic in the interview about how grand the technology was. Now that Simmons is out of business, and that the technology has shown it's limitations, Bill has re-discovered the nuances that only a acoustic kit can provide - good for him. Maybe he'll want to try again when the technology becomes more intuitive and spontaneous to work with. I myself have used a Simmons kit, and I have tried the V-drums, but nothing is quite like a regular kit, with the air around you breathing and moving as the drums respond to your touch. Electronic kits can't replicate this effect. All one can do is turn up the monitor loud enough to push some air toward you, and that doesn't have the same effect. Bill has always provided us with thoughful, creative, and energizing music. I'm sure he will continue to do so inside or outside of KC. Cheers, Mark -- Mark Rehder Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before. (Steven Wright) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 16:44:33 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Two Long Posts Elephant Talk #543 contains several Long Posts, and I'm glad Toby let them through, since they are cogent and thoughtful, albeit go on a bit. Greg Guillot had me nodding in agreement with his 18-point post for most of the way, but portions seemed repetitious and redundant. I would agree with him that V-drumming, at least as exhibited on the P2 album and tour, is inferior to a Real Drummer on Real Drums. I gather Belew used some form of sequencer to maintain those metronomic beats; they lacked syncopation, a backbeat, or any real "swing." They handcuffed the music. A good drummer knows when to lag behind the beat or push it forward, when to retard or advance the tempo, and can do this as needed within even a measure in ways no machine can. Greg clearly feels a lot of passion himself on the subject of Bruford's place in KC. No flames here. Frank J. Oteri (any relation to Cheri?) bases a mammoth post on the possible similarities, parallels, and influences of THE PRISONER on KC. Most of the connections he makes strike me as far-fetched, and one of them goes back to the basic question of Who Conceived King Crimson. Unless you think King Crimson's first album sprang full-formed from Robert Fripp's head (and I don't), the whole single-minded parallel between Fripp and Patrick McGoohan breaks down. And while a mind-blowing TV series that made its debut appearance in 1967 might well have been a big influence on a new band in the process of reinventing itself (beyond GILES, GILES & FRIPP) in 1968 and 1969, I have strong doubts of its influence years later (the early-middle seventies into the eighties). And some of the connections Frank makes are apparently based on misunderstandings. He cites "the 'faux illuminated manuscript' rendering of the Beatles on the cover of LIZARD. 'All You Need Is Love' appears throughout 'Fall Out.'" And your point was? Each of those illuminated letters on the cover of LIZARD -- front and back cover -- illustrates a song or piece of music on the album. The illustration of the Beatles illustrates "Happy Family," a commentary about the Beatles' breakup. Unless you think this song was written due to the influence of the appearance of "All You Need Is Love" in the final episode of THE PRISONER -- and I do not -- there is no possible connection here. So I'm afraid I find this attempt to link KC with THE PRISONER a rather silly exercise. If you're looking for progressive music with Actual Links to THE PRISONER, I suggest you check out the album THE GIRL WHO WAS...DEATH by the Yugoslavian/Italian band Devil Doll. --TW (DrP) ------------------------------ From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:42:58 EDT Subject: Mudslinging In ET 543 Greg Guillot so confidently wrote among other things: "(11) Bill is the only member of Crimson, past or present, who has never released a musical "dud." (I'm excluding Yes's Union, which Bill didn't play a major role in, and didn't want to be involved with). Belew -- many duds, and a big ego that exceeds his abilities. Gunn -- good, but not yet mature enough, musically, to avoid the occasional "dud-dom." Fripp -- several duds, most of them soundscapes. Pat -- Mister Mister. Tony -- no legitimate solo releases at all, as of yet (world diary has its moments, but is more like a dabbling hobby than a real record)." and then he later wrote: "(17) This whole situation, I am certain, is hurtful to Bill, and he does not deserve to be lambasted in this way." *sigh* Greg, I appreciate that you feel hurt (as I read your assumption of Bill's pain to really be your own), but I see little reason for you to make your point by "lambasting" the rest of the band the way you have. I think a few others here have made the suggestion that what is occurring today (as we all define the situation to be in our own minds - what do we really know about the details anyway?) is not so different from what has happened in the past. Like Nick Smith wrote in ET 543, "If the aim is to defy audience expectations with this approach, let's have more of it (the status quo is there to be disrupted)." King Crimson has always been a means for Bruford to stretch himself, and to do so in a context that has a larger audience than a jazz combo provides him. And he is stretched in part because he is challenged. I would think that Fripp has a better feel for how to work with Bruford, than any other person, and consider that perhaps that involves changing the equation from time to time. All that said, it is premature to conjecture as we all are. I'm with Emory on this one, "bring it on". Who knows what the future will bring, but Fripp's renewed excitement in his present and future endeavors makes me think that something good is just around the corner. The day when Fripp starts making musical decisions based on their popularity is the day the music dies. Bye, bye, Dan ------------------------------ From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:54:56 EDT Subject: Charity In ET #542 Kevin Brunkhorst wrote "My solution is to keep doing business with him as a consumer. I want no charity, and I believe Fripp wants none as well." Agreed, but it's a two way street. Perhaps Fripp should never have done business with your former employer, but there is no reason why I should feel content to let money I spent, that should have found its way back to DGM, linger in the black hole of corruption. Hey, at the very least, we should all be doing our very best Howard Beale impersonation: "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" Damn -you can't open windows in these office buildings! Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 16:23:00 -0700 From: Gerhard Subject: rethinking Crimson-Bruford I admit I posted in haste. I am not really mad at Uncle Bob. My comments were unfair. (I do however, think the ongoing bickering between Fripp and Bruford is really funny). I just really like listening to the "Dynamic Tension" (to quote Charles Atlas) between these two muscians. What I am annoyed at is the "Dopey" posting that's going on a ET. The level of discussion is getting really stupid, and I stupidly responded in kind. My rant should have been directed at people whining about what Crimson should or should not be doing. Who Cares? Not one ET poster knows what Bill & Bob are going to do in the future, so why sweat it? Anyway reading this newsletter has started to affect the way I hear Crimson, and not in a good way. I going to stop reading ET because it annoys the hell out of me now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:06:08 -0400 From: Andy Acunzo Subject: Bill and Bob Hello, After reading Fripp's recent postings at the DGM site regarding Crim's future plans and to what extent they include Bruford, as well as the ensuing discussion here at ET, I wanted to throw in my comments. As I read it Fripp gives at least two reaons why he'd like Broof to try out an all electronic drum setup (the V-drums) for Crimson. These are: 1) They make rehearsing, recording, performing, and mixing much easier. 2) Acoustic drums do not fit in with his vision of Crimson's future. Regarding reason number one - I'm sure all of these points are completely true. But do they justify forcing a world-class drummer who is possibly more dedicated to this band than anyone else to use an instrument he doesn't want to use (if that is the case)? In my opinion, they don't. I think a negative result of the P2 experience is that Robert got spoiled being on a stage which was essentially silent and now he cringes at the prospect of being next to Bruford's batterie again. Otherwise is just doesn't make sense - he's worked with acoustic drummers for 30 years with often phenomenal music resulting, and now he decides acoustic drumming onstage is doomed to failure? It may be loud up there, but this is rock and roll. :) Keep the fiberglass shields up and if necessary wear some of those expensive ear filters or ear monitors that reduce the decibel level without making the sound muffled by cutting the high end too much. As for reason number two - acoustic drumming may not fit in with Fripp's view of Crim's future. But if, as he's stated repeatedly, he's not the leader of this band, then shouldn't Bruford's view of Crimson's future be just as valid as his? And if conflict arises over acoustic drumming, shouldn't the drummer have the final say, not The Guitarist? If Fripp wants Broof to play an all-electronic drum setup against his will, what's to stop Bill from saying, "Gee Robert, your distorted honky-tonk piano sound has grown quite tiresome, and those phantom choirs don't do much for me either. How about playing only acoustic guitar onstage?" My point is that these are excellent musicians who should be allowed to choose what instruments they play. Of course these things can be discussed and debated within the band (and by the fans), :) but someone should not be forced out of the band, even temporarily, because he refuses to yield to someone else's wishes on this matter. Sincerely, Andy Acunzo aacunzo at sbchem dot sunysb dot edu ------------------------------ From: David MacLennan Subject: Bruford and The Prisoner Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:38:10 +1200 I think Greg Guillot made too much of Bruford's role in KC in ET543. The only person who MUST be in any incarnation of KC is Fripp himself (whatever he may say to the contrary -- see below). Bruford has certainly been there a long time and if he does not appear in the next incarnation I will be rather sorry. But the fact is Fripp wants to take KC in a certain direction, and this is a direction Bruford is obviously uncomfortable with. Thus the parting of the ways, just as it has always been with members who leave KC. Frankly, I find Fripp's vision for the new KC very exciting and I can't wait to hear what results. I have enough faith in Fripp and in the calibre of the musicians with whom he chooses to work in the context of thing thing called "King Crimson" to know that whatever the result it will be challenging to both musicians and audients. So roll on '99! As for Fripp's comment that he would love to see a KC that did not include him, I'm afraid that the reality is that even hardcore fans would not view such a group as "King Crimson". From a commercial standpoint, a Fripp-less KC would not be as profitable a proposition as one with him in it, and I think he knows this. All notions of the purity of music notwithstanding, Fripp cannot (and does not) ignore commercial realities -- but that does not make him a venal and shameless marketing weasel, merely a man with both feet on the ground and a clear head. Seen in that light, EG may have been wise to nix the McDonald-led lineup, whatever Fripp may have thought at the time. Personally, I would not view a Fripp-less KC as a bona-fide "King Crimson", even though I may well enjoy it on its own terms. I would view it in the much the same way I view BLUE and the PROJEkCTs -- a project involving members of KC, but which can not be KC proper without Fripp's presence (the fact that Fripp IS in all PROJEkCTs to date does not negate my argument). Now, as to Frank J Oteri's analysis of "The Prisoner" and KC: I can't help feeling that Frank is reading FAR too much into this. Such parallels (and some of them seem very tenuous to me) are little more than coincidence, IMHO. Frank has obviously given a great deal of thought to this and I do not wish to flame him, but the words "get a life" do come to mind.... Maybe it's time to nix the "Prisoner" thread, Toby? David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:59:33 CST From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" Subject: 21st Century Schizoid Fans Quite frankly the sheer amount of hysterical speculation going around here on ET lately about the vague state of affairs at Crimson World Central is kind of hard to believe. If Bruford doesn't come back to Crimson, then it's because it wasn't right for him to be back in it. Hey, BB is my favorite drummer and I'd hate to see him go, but I'd hate even more to hear Crimson with a member who didn't feel like he belonged and was there only because of fan pressure. Somebody from the last ET said "why question music you haven't even heard yet?" This is a good point--we have no idea what the next Crimson (provided there will be a unified Crim and not a collection of fractals) is going to sound like....and this is good. I don't want to know what it will be like until I put it in the CD player. I hope I hate it at first. I think I've hated every single Crimson album I've ever bought at first, and I own about 17 or 18. It took me six months to get into LTIA (my first one), the better part of a year to get into THRAKATTAK. Speaking of which, I really really loved the double trio idea, once I got used to it. I have to disagree with the guys who say Pat can't play with Bill--have you listened to B'Boom (the song)? Just keeping up with Bill through the metric modulation parts would be beyond most people, and Pat manages to do interesting things on top of that. The double drumming idea is wonderful, and I'd like to see them keep it. (I'm rooting for acoustic drums, but hey, it's not my band.) Anyway, before I start indulging in too much pure speculation myself here, how about everybody take a deep breath and remember that Crimson's entire raison d'etre is doing what you don't expect, even what you don't want them to....and the beauty of it is that you end up liking it anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:08:16 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: interview >Robert Fripp is certainly no stranger to the art of >bootlegging. Wearing the hat of both a Crim-head, as well >as, a boot devotee, one often considered the benefits of >getting the goods from within Fripps's own tape vaults- >which have acquired Zanadu-like mythical proportions. "Zanadu"? Ouch. Lost some credibility points right from the start. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:52:23 +0200 From: Henning Schnoor Subject: Bruford in Yes again? Hi, > With a semi-classic Yes running around; after making at > least two classic CD's: KTA Vols. I & II, and a passable > studio album: Open Your Eyes, could it be that > Anderson/Squire/Howe/Wakeman/Bruford team might be > reassembling? I don't believe so. From the interviews at NFTE (http://www.nfte.org), it seems clear that Bruford wasn't really too interested in the ABWF 'reunion' and the following 'Union' album. He said he mainly did it for the money, although it was some fun. He said - back then - that his first priority always was, and always will be King Crimson. I think there might be more than just the electric / acoustic drum problem, but I don't believe Yes has anything to do with Bill not playing on the next KC album. Of course, I could be wrong. All the best, Henning ------------------------------ From: MWise at icfkaiser dot com (Wise, Marshall VA01) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:35:27 -0400 Subject: enough bruford worship As I stated here previously, I love Bruford and own just about every recording he has played on. i've seen him in various bands several times. But, this Bruford worship is too much. It's insulting to Fripp and the rest of the band. Case in point, Greg Guillot's comments below from ET 543. >>From: Greg Guillot >>Subject: Please, No Bill-Less Crimso >>(4) Pat (although very nice) simply does not fit within KC >>as its sole drummer -- he simply isn't good enough. Tony >>Williams might fit, but he's dead. I bet you haven't heard "Damage". Pat's drumming there leaves me breathless. Regardless, what makes you think Fripp is clueless? Doesn't he want to make the best music possible? Also, enough with the Tony Williams. Tony Williams is the opposite of Bill Bruford. Tony had a peerless intuitive sense of rhythmic flow that drove the music while keeping it swinging and floating through time. Bruford's precise manner drives the music, but it certainly doesn't float effortlessly. I've yet to hear Bruford really "swing", even in his jazz groups. Ironically, I (and a few of my friends) remarked when P2 came out that Adrian's drumming flowed like Tony Williams. Adrian tends to play the downbeat a little bit ahead, then he relaxes on the upbeats, which gives a driven but flowing and open pulse to the music. >>It would be comprised of Fripp, his "pupils" (Pat and >>Trey), and someone who idolizes him and has spent a lifetime >>trying to imitate his sound (Belew). Okay, I don't see how Pat is Fripp's pupil. This statement is ridiculous. As to Adrian being an imitator, he is almost as different from Fripp as Bruford is from Tony Williams. Their interplay with their radically different styles is one of the strengths of the band. If Fripp wanted an imitator or pupil, he could have called on thousands of Crafty students who would give their left nut to be in KC, imitate Fripp, an do exactly as they are told. I bet Belew doesn't know or care one bit about Guitar Craft. If he's an imitator, he's not doing a very good job. Can't wait for ProjeKCt 4! Marshall Wise ------------------------------ From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: Bartok, Bruford and other banter Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:06:56 -0700 Issue 543 put some thoughts into my head that I have a burning desire to share: 1. I respect Toby's list monitoring more than any other list I've been on. However, I have to disagree with banning Bartok talk relevant to Fripp. Based on what little I've gleaned from Michael Flaherty's post and private e-mail with list member Brad Wilmot, this stuff is on the minds of some E-Ters. In relation to Mr. Flaherty (whom I suspect to be a fellow Chicagoan and therefore even more credible), he is probably the only regular poster that keeps his commentary consistently concise and relevant. Frankly, if he has something to write about the issue, I for one would like to see it. Also, we've all learned about other related KC artists from E-T, so why not some talk about a major influence? 2. All this moaning and kvetching about the lack of Bruford obscures one of Fripp's most important points: King Crimson is what Fripp (oops, the band members) think it is. Fripp has gone in a zillion different directions since '69, and with a personal exception here or there, the music has generally proven worth it. Don't get me wrong - I will miss Bruford and what he brings to the table (I agree with the issue 543 poster that felt Bruford to be the closest thing to another leader of the band after Fripp). Bottom line: we'll probably end up liking a Bruford-less KC anyway. Besides, with the fractal nature of KC these days, maybe Bruford will be back with a King Crimson Acoustic ProjeKCt. Regards to all, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:01:56 -0700 From: Scott Steele Subject: True Classic Yes!!; what we/the artists want; Pat not good > Bill Bruford now suddenly become available in 1999. This could mean: 1) > Anderson/Bruford/Wakeman/Howe + Squire = True Classic Yes!!! Ulgggh. For years I wished for this, but over and over again they have proven that they are not interested enough in this possibility to do a good job of it. >Now if we can just get Bill and Allan Holdsworth together again. It's not about what we want, it's about what the artists want, and whether they can create an environment where art can be created. >(4) Pat (although very nice) simply does not fit within KC > as its sole drummer -- he simply isn't good enough. This kind of statement is ludicrous. Good morning, it's not 1975 anymore. Can we please move on. Pat's good enough for any band. >It strains credulity to say that Billy-B. can't execute the >electronic Crimson concept. If he doesn't want to, I submit >it is for a very good reason (i.e., he knows it's a faulty concept). Or, that he doesn't want to. >(10) I can guarantee you, based on experience, that Billy-B >does not want to sit out for any Crimson project. You can provide us your conjecture as to whether or not Bill wants to sit out a Crimson project, but you can't guarantee anything. Turn loose of this, you don't own this. Just watch it all go down. >Twenty-two years later I'm still amazed; would there be "Fracture" without >Bartok? No. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #545 ********************************