Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #543 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 543 Monday, 5 October 1998 Today's Topics: Bartok Brufordless KC? Can't Resist: a comment on future KC lineups Brufordless KC and the drums KC configurations Bruford leaves KC FRIPP PHOTOS IN "WOMEN'S MAGAZINES" Please, No Bill-Less Crimso Talking Drums Broofless is mighty black? "Red" Album - A Dime A Dozen? bassist/drummer wanted KC and future ProjeKcts hey check it out King Crimson and The Prisoner Bartok Anyone? "Court of the Crimson King" cover seen in movie syntactics USA: A '74 Space Odyssey Radiophonics Trey Gunn's One Thousand Years A disciplined philosophy of Music Canadian Crimson Connection Absent Lovers... Frippless Crimson robert fripp--folkie ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:02:35 PDT From: "Andrew Luck" Subject: Bartok >From: flaherty michael w >Subject: Bartok Quartets > >Mike Irish asked in #540 if anyone would care to discuss the >Bartok quartets, and then noted that Toby probably would not >want the discussion on ET. It's Toby's call, but I would >like to note for the record that these quartets had a >tremendous influence on the young Robert Fripp. If there is >more to say in this context, I don't know. > >Michael Flaherty > >------------------------------ Greetings-I have to agree this would be an interesting discussion and would certainly encourage a more active role on my part (for what ever that's worth). Bartok, Kolandy, Schoenberg, free jazz, whatever might apply. There is nothing wrong with dream line ups but there might be more music appealing to ETers available now. What do you say Toby?-Lucky [ I think it would be better to discuss Bartok off-line, if you don't mind that. -- Toby ] ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 98 14:00:30 EDT From: James Dusewicz Subject: Brufordless KC? Just read ET #541 today and heard the news of Bill Bruford's likely omission from 1999 KC project. The reason given is his fancy for playing acoustic drums?!?! Perhaps there is more here than meets the eye. With a semi-classic Yes running around; after making at least two classic CD's: KTA Vols. I & II, and a passable studio album: Open Your Eyes, could it be that Anderson/Squire/Howe/Wakeman/Bruford team might be reassembling? Wakeman could not join the current Yes tour because of his own desire to tour and write (oh no...) Christian Music. Anderson/Squire/Howe are on tour with the current edition of Yes. Bill Bruford now suddenly become available in 1999. This could mean: 1) Anderson/Bruford/Wakeman/Howe + Squire = True Classic Yes!!! 2) Anderson/Bruford/Wakeman/Howe project (Augmented W/Yes backup musicians.) 3) Some kind of Yes oriented splinter project crazyhjhd at yahoo dot com James Dusewicz ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:47:40 +-900 From: Jeff Liss Subject: Can't Resist: a comment on future KC lineups Folks RF's recent writings show that he has three concepts of King Crimson right now, as a four, five and six-piece. He also says that he would like to do shorter tours, giving a three-week limit on them, including rehearsals (Crimson is known for doing very little rehearsal.) Crimson has also recently been known to fractalize into smaller groups and do short tours, creating a minimum of expectations for the setlist, short and sweet. Several people have written to ET recently, shocked over Bruford's "departure" for the next phase of the band -- to me this seems like a misconception. Throughout this ProjeKCt era, the six members have consistently been referred to as King Crimson. And we have also heard RF mention that, listening to a P2 show, he recognized some of the music as belonging to King Crimson. What I think is happening is that the line between what is a ProjeKCt and what is KC is breaking down. If Crimson goes out as a five-piece next year without Bill Bruford (for whatever reason), I don't think it means that he's not in the band "for this phase", unless you adjust your idea of the duration of a "phase." We used to think of a KC phase in terms like "1972-4" or "1981-4" -- but maybe now we should think of them in periods of a few months, or even just the three- week duration of a mini-tour. If KC does go out without him, Bruford will probably be back sooner rather than later -- after all, he does belong to two out of the three concepts of King Crimson currently in Robert's thinking. The short turnaround time (brief rehearsals, relatively low expectations for touring profits, etc.) may be the fulfillment of the idea, articulated some time ago by Robert but embraced by other members of the band, of the mobile intelligent unit. We could conceivably see several different Crimsons tour in one year, although each one would not reach every corner of the globe, so Texas, Eastern Europe, and Australia residents should get ready to howl. It's probably too much to start speculating on what these tours would be like, but there would probably be some core tunes. If the five-piece goes out I imagine that Adrian might do some double drumming with Pat. I'm not sure why Matthew Mueller in ET541 equates RF's desire to have electronic drums in the band as a sign that KC will move towards "electronica". Bubbling programmed synth lines cycling around? P2 was all-electronic, but wasn't "electronica"! The big question seems to be how the other members feel about these ideas. Another is whether or not they will try to promote a new KC album, whenever and however that happens, on a large scale (like Thrak's distribution by Virgin). Of course, that's going further down the line of fan speculation, for which Bruford has several times expressed such contempt. I reckon he dislikes it because he is so often the subject of it, being a mobile unit between several projects. Musicians aren't the kind of people who work steady 9 to 5 jobs; isn't it natural that they have many projects? Jeff Liss Tokyo ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Subject: Brufordless KC and the drums I too mourned breifly when I read that Fripp was considering a Brufordless Crimson. Moreover, despite how excellent "Absent Lovers" is, I can't help but wish Bruford was playing a real drum set instead of those awful sounding Simmonds things. Bruford should be playing acoustic: his technique demands no less. After thinking about Space Groove, however, I am reminded of how different and fresh some of that sound is (and humorous!), due in large part to Belew's rhythmic approach and, I guess, those newfangled V-drum things. No doubt this new rhythmic approach had a lot to do with taking the greater-KC in new directions, and Fripp (true to his instincts) has sought to maintain that new line into the new KC. So maybe there should be a Brufordless project. Bruford is such a strong force in KC (probably underrated influence-wise in these pages) that maybe it would be a good thing to have this new feel get more fully fleshed out and allowed to permeate before Bruford's return to a new KC. Meanwhile, Bruford is certainly doing more "R&D" in his own work, which could eventually be pulled into a KC quite different than anything we've seen before. So what the heck. Project5? Bring it on. -Emory PS: I'd still like to see a Frippless and Brufordless project: Pat, Trey, and Adrian! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:56:08 -0700 From: Scott Steele Subject: KC configurations >Another point of interest is Fripp's continued denial about being the leader of King Crimson. I'd like to see Robert address this again in a way where we might understand what it means to deny being the leader of a band that would not exist without him. >I think Bill Bruford is one of the world's great musicians I have enjoyed the work of all the members of King Crimson, both together and separately. I look forward to whatever Bill decides to do. >Would Mr. Fripp ever envision an incarnation of KC in which he not only >contributed silence, but absence? That's an interesting question. Another interesting question is whether or not the possibility exists that new music could be realized by any former configuration of King Crimson and whether Mr. Fripp would care to pursue that. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au Subject: Bruford leaves KC G'day all If this is true I'm greatly disappointed. IMHO Bill has been a great force behind KC and I cannot really imagine KC without him. I hope I will be pleasantly surprised. But I don't think so. From what I've read Pat was employed because Fripp wanted a straight beat for the new KC. Maybe he should just use a drum machine :-) Does this mean we can kiss the odd time goodbye. The recent interview by Anil Prassard gives some clues to Bill's reluctance to use the V-Drums. He mentions in the interview that he is a technophobe so this would outline the problems for Bill of using V-Drums. Also I was talking to a drummer friend of mine recently and asked if he was still using the trigger kit that he bought a few years ago. He said he became tired of the kit because of the feel of the pads (lack of physical dynamics). This is maybe another reason why he doesn't like playing them exclusively. Maybe I'm shirking my responsibility as an audient by placing demands or superimposing my own expectations on KC but what the hell, if I like it I'll buy it and if I don't, I wont. If Bill leaves then I'm sure we'll get more Earthworks and maybe more BLUE. Now if we can just get Bill and Allan Holdsworth together again. Regards to all Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:36:18 -0400 From: "dwool at yesic dot com" Subject: FRIPP PHOTOS IN "WOMEN'S MAGAZINES" Does anyone have any scans of the articles & photos of Mr. Fripp & Toyah in any of these "Women's Magazines"? (Or any links to the actual magazine sites that would contain the info?) Thanks, -Don- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:38:44 -0400 From: Greg Guillot <801greg at radix dot net> Subject: Please, No Bill-Less Crimso Points to Ponder: (1) A Bill-Less Crimson is not Crimson. Yes it has been in the past (pre-1972), but not now. (2) A Bill-Less Crimson has about as much claim to being Crimson, and is equally as (un)appealing as a Fripp-Less Crimson. (3) Billy B. comprises at least 50% of the excitement of seeing Crimson live. When he is there, everyone experiences, among other things: (a) jaw-dropping reactions; and (b) an immediate compulsion to call out his name. When he is not there (as in the ProjeKcts), people still scream out for him. This annoys Belew (visibly) and Fripp (invisibly), but it is true. Fripp, conversely (and unfortunately), in the 1990's comprises about 35% of the excitement of seeing Crimson live. This was not true in the four-piece, but it has been true in the 1990's. (4) Pat (although very nice) simply does not fit within KC as its sole drummer -- he simply isn't good enough. Tony Williams might fit, but he's dead. Narada Michael Walden could fit. The old Phil Collins (Brand X days) would fit. But not Pat. Sorry. (5) If Bill were to decide to "sit out" a particular Crimson "experiment," to me it means that it is highly doubtful that the experiment is worthwhile. Bill has more musical (and Krimso) integrity than anyone in the band, save for R. Fripp. Moreover, Bill loves, and is dedicated to, Crimson more than anyone in the band (including Robert), and believes that it is important that Crimson always be around. I interviewed Bill in 1984, on the same day Fripp announced the disbanding of the 80's Crimson (I was the first one to tell Bill about the breakup, and he didn't believe me), and Bill was absolutely crushed. This says alot, because as stated by other posters previously, Bill's solo music has more integrity (and independent listenability) than anyone else in the band, past or present. (6) A totally electronic Krimson, and its music, will quickly become dated. Check out "Live in Japan," for example. Yes, it's awesome, and Fripp plays with passion throughout. But, those synth sounds (especially Lark's Tongues Pts II and II) sound extremely dated here in the 1990's. Fripp has virtually acknowleged as much, in the "Careful with that Axe" video, where he hints that the synth sounds of the 80's Krim were no longer stylish. (7) Unfortunately, Fripp's idea of an electronic Crimson, probably means he will spend most of his time making his guitar sound like a piano. This ruined ProjeKct II, in my humble opinion (saw them in D.C.), and is really boring. The "piano playing," if played by a pianist, wouldn't hold its own -- it's not good piano playing. It does not become better because it is played on guitar. Nor does the guitar playing become better because it sounds like a piano. I like the choral choir voices sound Fripp gets, but please, leave the fake piano at home. (8) The V-Drum, though interesting, is like a little toy -- very unimpressive. And very beneath Bruford, unless he has a supplemental batterie. (9) Fripp has had "problems" with Bill since at least the 1980's, and perhaps in the 70's Krim, too. In my opinion, these latest musings are just another example of this doubt resurfacing. However, I submit that the tension between Fripp and Bruford (rather than the partnership between Fripp and Belew) is the foundation of the modern King Crimson. (10) Bruford pioneered electronic drumming with his work with Crimson in the 80's and Earthworks (the original one) thereafter. Moreover, he has always been willing to abide by Fripp's restrictions on his playing, for the sake of the greater Krim -- he even accommodated Pat, thereby making the double trio work (all members of the band have acknowledged that the double drumming was the most successful aspect of the new Crimson -- even though Billy-B. hated the idea). It strains credulity to say that Billy-B. can't execute the electronic Crimson concept. If he doesn't want to, I submit it is for a very good reason (i.e., he knows it's a faulty concept). (10) I can guarantee you, based on experience, that Billy-B does not want to sit out for any Crimson project. Fripp's writings on the DGM page, I believe, are "political" -- he's trying to convince BILL that its ok to sit out, because he won't be excluded from Crimson forever. NO ONE IS MORE DEDICATED TO CRIMSON THAN BRUFORD. He's even more dedicated to the band than Fripp, who cannot maintain continuous inspiration or involvement. As Bill told me in our 80's interview: "Fripp is an oddball. He doesn't particularly like music; he despises playing it in front of people; he hates touring -- and yet, he's the greatest guitar player in the world." Bill does not have these "problems" which interfere with creativity. Bill is always available; always awesome. (11) Bill is the only member of Crimson, past or present, who has never released a musical "dud." (I'm excluding Yes's Union, which Bill didn't play a major role in, and didn't want to be involved with). Belew -- many duds, and a big ego that exceeds his abilities. Gunn -- good, but not yet mature enough, musically, to avoid the occasional "dud-dom." Fripp -- several duds, most of them soundscapes. Pat -- Mister Mister. Tony -- no legitimate solo releases at all, as of yet (world diary has its moments, but is more like a dabbling hobby than a real record). (12) If Bill's musical ideas bother Fripp, that's all the more reason to keep him. (13) Fripp has lost all credibility he may ever have attached to any statement indicating that he is not the bandleader or a dictator. If he can force Bill out of the band, even momentarily, there is no democracy in Crimson. And, I fear that part of the motivation behind the projeKcts was simply to play without Bill. (14) Bill is Fripp's only equal within the band. (15) Fripp wants to destroy everyone's preconceptions about what Crimson is or should be. That's a shame, because the only preconceptions I, or any of my friends have ever had about Crimson, is that it is comprised of the very best musicians in the world, playing whatever they want to play. True, my expectations would be shattered by the removal of Bill, because then Crimson would not be comprised of the best musicians in the world, playing whatever they wanted to play. It would be comprised of Fripp, his "pupils" (Pat and Trey), and someone who idolizes him and has spent a lifetime trying to imitate his sound (Belew). Yes, Tony L. would be there, and he is the best. But, he's a nice guy and would of course show up. It cannot be argued that Tony doesn't want Bill in the band. Look at Blue. Look at ABW&H. Look at all the side projects Bill and Tony have participated in (David Torn, Al Dimeola, etc.). Bill and Tony belong together as the rhythm section, and I would be very surprised if Bill were ever to state that he'd rather play with Pat as his drummer than Bill. (16) Yes, Bill has definite stylings that will always surface, and Fripp may not like them. BUT, Fripp also has definite stylings that are not for everyone. Fripp and Bruford are coleaders of Crimson now, whether Fripp likes it, wants it, or sees it, or not. The very soul of Crimson is in these two people, and if Fripp can't see that, IMHO, personal feelings are getting in the way of his artistic vision. (17) This whole situation, I am certain, is hurtful to Bill, and he does not deserve to be lambasted in this way. (18) If choices are to be made, my suggestion (which Fripp already is entertaining) would be to "bag" Trey and Pat. Just some thoughts. Bring on the flames. But I know these things to be true. [ If you want to flame Greg, and I hope you don't -- do it on private email please -- Toby ] Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:56 -0600 (MDT) From: Gary Mayne Subject: Talking Drums It was a bit alarming to read that Robert wants to abandon acoustic drums in the next KC/Project. One of Crimson's most interesting traits over the last 30 years has been both the use of superb drummers and the creation of compositions that allowed space for the drums to come through. For me, the use of V Drums in Projeckt Two diminished my interest in this effort. While one can understand Robert's desire to better control the overall live sound on KC, V Drums seem to lack the nuance or excitement of acoustic drums and add a flat uniformity to the sound that also seems slightly bombastic. Part of the problem in Projeckt Two could be Adrian's playing (surprising competent but miles away from any of KC's distinguished percussionists) but the issue seems to be more the sound of the drums rather than his playing. I tried played a set of V Drums in a local store recently and found them fun for a few minutes but the electronics seemed to effectively filter much of the personality that comes through an acoustic set via the many choices made by a drummer through tuning, velocity of attack, choice of cymbals etc. The V Drums make it easy to change your personality quickly but seem obscure your own personality. Perhaps over time, you can tame the machine but Bruford's reluctance to play them says a lot. I think Leon Parker (the great young jazz drummer who has boiled his set down to a bass drum, a cymbal and a snare) captured the issue perfectly in an interview published August in the New York Times when he likened the proliferation of the drum machine since the early 80's to "a nuclear bomb...I couldn't understand how everyone could walk around as if nothing had happened," he said. Although Robert didn't specifically state that the next Crimson would abandon using a drummer (presumably Pat will play V Drums), the move away from acoustic drums towards electronic drums is not a positive trend for KC percussion enthusiasts. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:04:11 +0100 From: Bopster Subject: Broofless is mighty black? E-Talkers, Regarding the pessimism about the probable and probably temporary exclusion of Broof, Master of All Time, from the next incarnation of the Monarch: -Why the hurry to condemn music you haven't even heard? If Fripp feels that for this stage in Crimso's development Acoustic drumming is very much in the way (and so is an acoustic Billy Boy), well, I've seen him do radical things before. And, usually, they've turned out very nicely. Give the man the benefit of the doubt, please. -Someone in the last ET was afraid Fripp was jumping on the "new" (seven year old at least) electronica-trend. He's already done that, with "Darshan", and his projects with Future Sound of London. I think the next incarnation being electronic is probably more about equipment than music. And They've been using guit-synths since '81. Now the drums are synthed. Where's the big difference (providing, of course, they do it with style). - There is no "-"... %-P .... -The concept of double drumming, imho, was very well carried out on B'Boom and Thrak. Now I hope for the two per se extraordinary bassists to find a way of working together more musically and intrestingly. That is, *I REALLY want to hear Trey*. He, like, umm, rools, doods. Youze, -Bop ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:22:32 -0400 From: Peter Geddes Subject: "Red" Album - A Dime A Dozen? If I had a dime for every band that is supposed to sound like "Red"-period Crimson, I'd have...okay, maybe $1.20. But seriously, I know folks need a reference point to describe things, but no band sounds like "Red"-period Crimson, not even Crimson itself! One interesting thing about the "Red" line-up is that, while Bruford, Fripp and Wetton are pictured on the cover, the album includes alumni from every other Crimson line-up, up to that point (eg., Ian McDonald from "In The Court...", Mel Collins from "Wake...", "Lizard", "Earthbound", Mark Charig from "Lizard", "Islands" and David Cross from "Starless..." and "Larks' Tongues..."). No wonder no Crimson has never sounded like this -- this Crimson line-up is really four line-ups at the same time (more or less, work with me here)! No band is ever going to sound like "Red"-period Crimson because no one will ever be able to duplicate that Uber-Crimson line-up. Not even Crimson! Feel free to flame or ignore. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:23:45 EDT From: DoubleTrio at aol dot com Subject: bassist/drummer wanted Hi, I'm a 21-year-old guitarist based in the Los Angeles area (actually about 20 miles east of downtown) that's looking for a bassist and drummer (21 or over) to form a band. As far as guitarists go, my major influences are Robert Fripp, Martin Gore, David Gilmour, and Robert Smith...among many others. I apologise to Toby for the possible inappropriateness for a post such as this, but frankly it's near to impossible to find musicians that have great taste in music without choosing a forum such as this one to inquire upon. Please e- mail me if you are interested. Looking forward to starting something great... DT ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:44:54 +0100 From: "Nick Smith" Subject: KC and future ProjeKcts I read Robert Fripp's postings to the DGM website about the possible future/s of King Crimson and it's various fractals, with a mixture of enthusiasm, a little regret but no real surprise. Certainly a Crimson without Bill Bruford won't be the same, but then surely that's the point. It's not really clear whether Fripp considers the proposed 5-piece configuration to be the new Crimson or merely another projeKct (or is to be called PROJEkCT). It seems as though we could be faced with the exciting prospect of having three viable Crimson line-ups; each being mobilised as material, opportunity and intention present themselves. This would make the best use of the existing material, and be less unwieldy for development of new pieces. Certainly the recent double-trio line-up achieved moments of tremendous group interplay and cheek withering intensity, but I also think it made too much of too little new material. Live, it took old war-horses like "Red" into new and devastating areas, but then didn't really do justice to the 81/84 pieces, especially in comparison with "Absent Lovers". These pieces live seemed to reduce Pat Mastelotto's role to being less than a percussionist, which was a shame. If the aim is to defy audience expectations with this approach, let's have more of it (the status quo is there to be disrupted). I could see the 5-piece PROJEkCT radically re-working and bedding down the "THRAK" material and coming up with something completely new and wonderful (Belew and Mastelotto on double V-Drums perhaps). Finally, how about this for a future projeKct; Bruford/Gunn/Levin/Mastelotto? Here's to the 21st Century! Nick Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:53:00 -0700 From: "Martin H. Eastburn" Subject: hey check it out i had no idea the amount of live albums now out;i'll be in bliss if it is still possible to order them. MUSIC Always i have steered away from fan clubs or any type of communication though the mail(for the most part) but i really can't listen to enough KING CRIMSON especially when it's live any newsletter or any information about KING CRIMSON or any band on DGM (anything enlightening) i'd enjoy Sean Phillip Eastburn 145 View Rd. Felton,CA 95018 THANK YOU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:24:08 EDT From: FRANKYORK at aol dot com Subject: King Crimson and The Prisoner In E.T. #541, SMcmil6360 at aol dot com proposed the following possible origin of Schizoid man: > The 21st Century Schizoid Man might be an (indirect) reference to the > excellent British TV series The Prisoner. As I long time fan of both King Crimson (the greatest-ever rock band)and The Prisoner (the greatest-ever television broadcast), I have long pondered connections between the two. Both King Crimson and The Prisoner are products of late 1960s Great Britain, born out of the mind of single-minded iconoclasts within genres that are primarily about collaboration. Like Robert Fripp, Patrick McGoohan wanted to make a revolutionary statement at a revolutionary time. Both believed in the need to work within the confines of popular entertainment while at the same time elevating it to a much higher lever. Just as listening to KC albums over and over again always turns up something new, rewatching the 17 episodes of The Prisoner (all of which originally aired in the U.K. in 1967, U.S. premiere 1968) always yields new revelations. The personae of both Fripp and McGoohan in their respective public guises in KC and The Prisoner are actually quite similar. Both are very introspective and stubborn with a slightly daft sense of humor. Interestingly enough, the cast for each episode of the Prisoner changes with the exception of McGoohan (and a midget butler played by Angelo Muscat who remains silent throughout all 17 episodes!). This is an interesting parallel to KC where Fripp is the only member to appear in all of the band's incarnations. (Some characters re- appear in different guises in various episodes of The Prisoner just as folks like Ian McDonald resurface on RED, etc.) Rehearing and rewatching KC albums and episodes of The Prisoner has revealed a wide array of more specific parallels, many of which are probably wishful thinking. But since both endeavors are puzzle-laden mazes, some might indeed be more than just mere speculation. My interest in these parallels first began when I noticed a curiously Fripp- sounding distorted electric guitar in the soundtrack for several of the episodes. "Could this be a young Fripp "getting his bearings?" I fantasized. Then I noticed the belltree whenever there was a weird twist in the plot which recalled to be the belltree in "Prince Rupert Awakes" on LIZARD. "Hmmm..." and the wheels started turning some more. . . I pondered saving this post for a future issue, perhaps issue #600 or #601 (i.e. "Six o' one, half a dozen of the other" - a dismissal line used frequently in The Prisoner), but <> opened up the proverbial Pandora's Box. so here goes. . . ITCotCK The most blatant Prisoner reference here is the 21CSM reference already cited by <>. The song offers a very similar paranoid view of reality presented in the television program. In The Prisoner episode, "Schiziod Man", authorities try to break down the resistance of their designated prisoner Number 6 and find out what his personal secrets by presenting him with a nemesis who looks just like him and trying to make the real Number 6 believe that he is in fact someone else. Being confronted with ourselves as the real enemy is a running theme of The Prisoner and seems keeping in spirit with the selfless philosophy which has guide the Fripp-led yet leaderless KC these past 29 years. ItWoP Yes, I'll admit I'm stretching a bit here, but one of the few friends that Number 6 makes in his prison of "The Village" is a cat. Befriending and giving the cat some "Cat Food" is in itself an act of rebellion against the authorities. The bizarre musical denouement of "The Devil's Triangle" is also a curious parallel to the visual denouement of "Fall Out", the final episode of The Prisoner. LIZARD The big link here is "Prince Rupert Awakes" with its belltree. But, there's more. Prince Rupert is the evil prince in, surprise surprise, "The Prisoner of Zenda" a novel very popular among British schoolboys which is all about kidnapping the rightful prince and replacing him with an imposter. Curiously, "Prince Rupert Awakes" is not sung by then KC-lead singer Gordon Haskell but rather by an "imposter" Jon Anderson. Take that, Mr. Schizoid Man! Then, of course, there's the "faux illuminated manuscript" rendering of the Beatles on the cover of LIZARD. "All You Need Is Love" appears throughout "Fall Out." ISLANDS Number 6's one soft spot in The Prisoner is with the ladies and it's usually his undoing. This album offers three undoings by ladies -- "Formentary Lady," "The Letters" and "Ladies of the Road." These songs seem as unconnected to the usual KC lyric plot as the whimsical Prisoner episodes "Living in Harmony" and "The Girl Who Was Death", in which McGoohan portrays a man never identified as Number 6 who is undone by women. Also, the album ends with the title track "Islands." The Prisoner's infamous Village is located on the island resort of Portmeirion, Wales. Number 6's several unsuccessful attempts at escaping the Village by sea might have inspired "The Sailor's Tale." Certainly Fripp's unusual solo is a "great escape." EARTHBOUND Yes, I know this is definitely a stretch, but the original issue of this rare never-released-in-the-United States LP, says "SAVE 6" in the corner. I've been told that's just the catalog number, but I can dream can't I? The LP of couse features live performances of "The Sailor's Tale" - which provides a momentary escape from Boz's attempts at scat and Boz's brilliant 21CSM. LTiA Other than the title, "Exiles", it's all probably too much of a stretch. Although the taped voices on LTiA conjure up thoughts of Prisoner-esque mind- altering experiences such as the dream invasion in the episode "A, B or C" and Jamie Muir's punctuations on "Easy Money" conjure up the Prisoner episode title "Hammer Into Anvil." S&BB Ditto here except for the title "The Great Deceiver" which really is about the Vatican, not the CIA. However, the Village's extremely effective surveilance system maintains a pretty thorough "Night Watch" with surveillance cameras everywhere. RED The title "One More Red Nightmare" has its antecedent in Cold War lingo. Whether or not The Prisoner is run by US or THEM (the Reds) is an early question that Number 6 keeps asking the keepers of the Village to no avail. USA Live performances of 21CSM and "Exiles", but no real connections. (In the pure footnote department, when the Prisoner first aired in the USA in 1968, the episode "Living in Harmony" was banned from the airwaves. The episode, which was filled with references to mind-altering hallucinogenics and which advocated pacificism in the face of physical confrontation would have been too much of an assault to American morale during the Vietnam War.) Discipline Discipline is what the Village instills and those who do not conform are deemed "unmutual." The anagram title "Thela Hun Ginjeet" ("Heat in the Jungle") continues Fripp's McGoohan-esque crypticisms Beat Indeed Number 6 is a "Waiting Man" who paces his room up and down endlessly whenever he is alone. Three of a Perfect Pair Adrian's mantra "I want to get out of here." in "Dig Me" is the only potential allusion I've found thus far, but I haven't given up the quest yet. The title and the schizoid nature of the album bring it back to the very beginning of this discussion, however. Thrak It's someone else's turn to find something here now. . . Enough said Be seeing you, Frank J. Oteri ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:59:19 -0400 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: Bartok Anyone? Michael Flaherty wrote in ET #541: "Mike Irish asked in #540 if anyone would care to discuss the Bartok quartets, and then noted that Toby probably would not want the discussion on ET." I agree with Michael. If there is something to say, let's hear it. I was listening to these quartets a lot when I first heard KC and it was partially this obvious--and since confirmed--connection that initially drew me into KC. Twenty-two years later I'm still amazed; would there be "Fracture" without Bartok? Robert Cambra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:06:57 PDT From: "Dave Mckay" Subject: "Court of the Crimson King" cover seen in movie Well, I saw a fairly dodgy B grade movie a while ago, call "Surf Nazis Must Die", and I saw a mural on a wall by the beach where the film was set of the "Schitzoid Man" face. This can just be thought of as a point of interest. Or, I was also wondering if it might have not just been for the set of the movie, or if, somewhere, there is such a mural? Dave Mckay; aarrrgh at hotmail dot com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:14:00 -0700 From: Nic dot Roozeboom at sv dot sc dot philips dot com (Nic Roozeboom) Subject: syntactics Fri, 18 Sep 98 23:24:50 +0100, Tony Douglas wrote: >> a delay unit and (most importantly) your fingers, ears and >> taste, and you'll be Frippertronicing away in no time. I venture the correct spelling would be "Frippertronicking"... Regards, Nic (without k) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:10:51 PDT From: "Edgar Kausel" Subject: USA: A '74 Space Odyssey Have you ever noticed that USA's cover is VERY similar to Kubrick's 2001:A space odyssey monolyth image (including the mystical alignment of the Sun and the Moon, both rising over the silhouette of the ominous ebon form)? "Stanley Kubrick chose the rectangular form of the Monolith because of its simplicity and its perfection. There is no question upon viewing the Monolith that it is artificial -- it is the work of an intelligent mind." Did Fripp choose the monolith because USA is simple and perfect? Did he want to show us the work of an intelligent mind? I wonder if he's going to keep that great cover in USA II. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:55:00 -0700 From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: Radiophonics I'm still looking to trade Radiophonics. I am interested in acquiring any one of the myriad side projects for King Crimson and other DGM artists that I don't have. If you have anything you wanna trade, e-mail me privately. Eric Ekirchner at deltadentalil dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:12:29 +0100 From: Keith Burns Subject: Trey Gunn's One Thousand Years I have a mint copy of Trey Gunn's "One Thousand Years" CD for trade or sale. Let's say UKP 7 or $10 plus postage (I'm in the UK). Cheers, Keith. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:58:48 +0200 From: Bartosz Malecki Subject: A disciplined philosophy of Music Hello all crimies!!! I would like to write a few words about music - I do not mean only music performed by KC and it's sub-crimson-court-bands but all kind of music. Music in general. However, I must admit that this idea, which was originally incubating in my friend's mind and then passed on to me, was developed in my mind under the influence of what KC and all Projects have lately undertaken. One of my friends says that we do not produce any music. According to her the music already exists and surrounds us. In other words, we live in a world full of music. It seems to be obvious, but the point is that there are two kinds of music. One is present in our every day life, we can hear it on a radio, TV or in concerts etc., etc. The other one has it's own dimension normally unable to be detected. It is a kind of fluid, kind of other world interfering with our world. People performing the music exist on the boundary of these two worlds. They are TRANSLATORS - first of all they are able to feel, to detect the higher dimensions of music and they are gifted by nature to translate it into language understood by others, into this music which we all can hear and feel - contemplate. Those gifted people are inventors, they show us and bring us new ways of performing and understanding music. They explore the higher dimension of music and then bring the results of exploration to us. But there is also another way to improve music. The music that has been already translated exists in our world in the form of schemes. What we can hear every day on radio or TV or somewhere else are only schemes - ways of playing music. We can mix those schemes, explore the existing themes and in this way compose something new. Someone who performs music is strongly influenced by those schemes, and sometimes he loses his sensitivity to higher dimensions of music, or maybe he is too lazy to explore the unknown. That's why those schemes are often similar, hard to distinguish one from another. To sum up these strange thoughts, the role of the musicians is to explore both the schemes and the unknown dimensions of music. This is my comment to what KC has done and achieved for the last thirty years. Do you wanna kill me now, or exchange the ideas, or maybe help me to develope this one? Please, write to: magikb2 at friko6 dot onet dot pl P.S. Next time you will get some more...... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:30:50 -0400 From: dschippe at ford dot com (David Schipper (R)) Subject: Canadian Crimson Connection I was wondering around my old vinyl last night and found a Crimson connection to Corey Hart. Mel Collins plays sax on Corey's Young Man Running album released in 1988. It seems like he isn't as active these days when compared to the '70s. Later Folks, Dave S. ... NP: Carman - The Champion - Prepare To Die ........................................................................... Watch out now, take care, beware of greedy leaders They'll take you where you should not go... - G. Harrison - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 21:23:15 UT From: gary_weimer at cinfin dot com Subject: Absent Lovers... Until I get a permanent home in my new location, I decided to bring my old vinyl and get a stereo to listen all of my old KC stuff. Well, that didn't work so I settled on buying a portable CD player and getting "Absent Lovers". All I can say is "cool!" I'm having a problem relating to some of the not-so-positive remarks on this; it's everything I could have hoped it to be. And Robert's liner notes don't offend me in the least - hey, let the man speak. It's his music, after all. Although I wish the guitars were better balanced (please refer to Fripp's comments on live recording in the liner notes!) I liked what I heard. Some of the songs, I was hearing for the first time, and I thought that the songs all worked together. The thing that I was reminded of when listening to this is the approach that Fripp and Belew take when playing live, and you can hear some of it on this CD. Fripp always seems to put a lot of concentration into doing what looks so easy when you see him do it. Belew, on the other hand, always seems to act as though he's not paying attention; kind of like the new guy in the band who's being shown something - since he doesn't know what his part is, he kind of noodles and screws around with the basic sections as he goes along. We can assume that this isn't the case, but the nonchalance of Belew and the deliberateness of Fripp make this collection a must in my book. And, since others have commented, they handle the older KC material just as well as the original musicians in their own write. I think I prefer interpretation to cloning anyday. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:22:33 -0400 From: Ted White Subject: Frippless Crimson On September 26th, Mr. Fripp posted to the DGM site the statement that "In 1974 I planned for Ian MacDonald [sic; his name is spelled McDonald -- I told you that you needed an editor, Robert!] to replace me in Crimson so it might continue, following my departure from the music industry. Ian would have given the group (Frippless And Slightly Slack) a legitimate succession in line of descent from the throne; but EG Management refused to accept a Frippless Crimson. Ted White suggested recently in ET that I should consult with Ian over Crimon's future, but what was authentic in 1974 is no longer realistic." I feel Mr. Fribble is slightly misquoting me: I was not suggesting that he alone should consult with Ian, but that the *band* might care to. Nor was I suggesting that Ian be taken into the band (unless that was the agreed-upon outcome of a consultation). But inasmuch as Ian was so much the original creator of King Crimson's music, sound, and approach (and inasmuch as his playing on TOKYO TAPES reveals that he can still Get It Up), it occurred to me that he too might have evolved over the years in terms of conceptualizing music, and might provide a fresh input for KC's direction. Certainly he's a touchstone. What I found more interesting than the bandying about of my name (enjoyable though that usually is), was the mention that Ian had been selected by Robert to be the Successor to the Throne of the Crimson King -- until EG nixed it. This is brand new to me -- and I not only pored over everything written in the British musical press on the subject at the time (1974) -- and there was a fair bunch -- I interviewed Ian on the subject in 1978, and Robert on it in 1979, and this never came up. Indeed, I wonder if Ian even knew about it. (He was disappointed when the band folded just as he was about to join it for the RED tour.) One can only wonder what a post-Fripp King Crimson in the mid-70's would have been like. (It would have included Wetton and Bruford. Would they have added another guitarist, or would Ian have handled all the guitar work, along with the Mellotron, flute and saxes? I have to think they'd have made it a quartet, with someone else who could trade off on the Mellotron from his main instrument. How about Jobson...? He did the violin overdubs on USA....) (Ah, idle -- or maybe idol -- speculation....) One might, in one's imagination, construct a whole Alternate History, in which King Crimson continued through the seventies, and Robert Fripp started up a new band in 1981, calling it Discipline.... --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 00:49:48 -0400 From: "Bill N." Subject: robert fripp--folkie Has anyone else ever toyed w/this idea--What if King Crimson had explored directions it toyed with, but never really pursued. Case and point: anyone lucky enough to have A YOUNG PERSON'S INTRO to KC has this EXQUISITE version of "I TALK TO THE WIND" W/Judy Dobyle, who worked with Fairport Convention on their first album, before Sandy Denny took over on UNHALFBRICKING. Anyhow, listen to that version, and you get this kind of english folk/Fairport/Nick Drake/feel that was going around england at the time. Listen to "LADY OF THE DANCING WATER" off LIZZARD or "Cadence and Casecade" off POSIDIAN and you'll get the exact same thing. Fripp and co. were very adept at making this type of music sound quite jazzy, lush and rich. Had KC not been an "electric band" but had instead been a folk band.....well, what do you think? I think we would have everything that's great about Nick Drake on our hands, but even more jazzy and abstract? Useless Conjecture? What could have been, you say? Perhaps. However, all members are alive and well, and people will be soon living past 100, so............. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #543 ********************************