Elephant Talk #538 (as text)

6 September 1998

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:33:49 -0400
From: Discipline Global Mobile <73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com>
Subject: NEWS: Post from Fripp
DGM World Central
PO Box 1533,
Wiltshire, SP5 5ER.
(44) 1722 781042: fax.

Sunday 6th.

September, 1998.

Dear Team,

        Firstly, many thanks to Dan K. and the many posters
who have contributed suggestions and expressed interest
regarding the DGM Collectors' Club.

        Secondly, I quote from DGM postings:

        "One important point to prospective Club members: if
you have any reservations about joining, I recommend that
you do not. I assume goodwill, and a measure of
enthusiasm. There is no compulsion on any member to take any
release, whether a Club Selection or not. Selections will be
made on the likelihood that most of the membership will want
them, guided by the large amount of feedback we have
received and are receiving.

        Club releases, both historical and contemporary,
assume the willing engagement of the audience: the audient
extends themself to connect with the music. With open
releases, we cannot make that assumption. So, we present the
music in such a way that it reaches out to welcome in its
listening public: sonically, musically, and in presentation.

        Small unit runs are relatively expensive (copying,
editing, mastering, pressing) and operating the Club is also
(relatively) expensive.  We shall keep down the costs to
members of double / multiple CDs wherever possible. This is
where Members assume a reciprocal goodwill from the
company. Which they may.

        DGM as a trading company is very healthy. Roughly,
our releases sell enough to maintain the company but haven't
yet moved to the next plateau, which is a profit level. This
would enable us to invest in choice technology and address
our overdraft, so we don't have to bear hire and interest
charges. But, in time and with a supportive audience."

        This past Friday 4th. September we turned down our
first applicant to join the Club. A four page letter from
the applicant included useful suggestions for future Club
releases, and three pages of concerns and questions about
joining the Club. If any potential Member of this
(exclusive?) Club needs to write a three page letter
expressing their worries in joining, better not to join. We
sent their cheque back. (I guess that makes the Club VERY

Sample Q. & A.

Q.  Is the DGM CC democratic?
A.  Actually, no. It's a business. But it's the kind of
        business I'd like to do business with.

Q.  Is it right that Robert / DGM chooses the releases?
A.  Yes.

Q.  Why?
A.  Firstly, because we are the only person/s with the total
overview of musical and business possibilities; including
informed feedback and suggestions from correspondents, ET
enthusiasts, and the DGM Web Guestbook. Secondly, because we
take responsibility for our decisions, and pay the tab for
taking them.

Q.  But that's not democratic!
A.  Right again.

Q.  Why are the Club releases at the high cost end of
mainstream CD releases?
A.  They're not - they're at the low price end of bootleg

Q.  Will the sound be good?
A.  Probably not: most of it will be terrible. And if its
good, be happy. If it's bad, be happy anyway.

Q.  That's terrible!
A.  I thought we'd agreed on that.

Q.  Is the Club exclusive?
A.  Yes, but only if you don't join it.

Q.  What do I need to join?
A.  Sufficient sentient capacity to breathe in, and then
out, through two nostrils simultaneously. And if you only
have one, then we'll accept that as well.

Q.  I've never be so insulted in all my life!
A.  I don't believe you. But, perhaps you should go out in
public more often?

Q.  I'm not giving you my business!
A.  Firstly, I support your decision. Secondly, business
dealings between DGM and its customers assume goodwill and a
(critical) engagement. And so, thirdly, I support your

Q.  I'm not going to save up my hard-earned pay until I have
enough to join, and then give it to a manipulative, greedy,
mercenary, anal retentive who has no feelings for struggling
musicians who send him unsolicited tapes, and doesn't allow
himself to feel the pain of loss of not being able to assist
those who come pounding at his door.
A.  I thought we'd agreed on that too.

Q.  You'd better maintain DGM as an open model for others
who would endeavor to create a similar small label, or I'll
write you arrogant, assumptive and insulting letters which
tell you nothing about you but a lot about myself!
A.  So, you're sure you don't want a series of dodgy

        If we were to enter into a dialogue with one
potential member who has major problems with whether they
will be treated fairly by DGM; with the sonic quality of
bootleg tapes; with whether their suggestions for titles are
heeded; with whether we shall be consulting with them and
replying to their letter which takes three pages to air
these concerns; we wouldn't have time to prepare the

        Perhaps the ET enthusiast reading this may, inwardly
and quietly, say to themselves: "This is absurd! How could
any one person expect and demand so much of DGM's time? Who
is this?" I necessarily reply: a large proportion of those
who write to us.

        "The Book of Wimborne" by David Popham was published
by Barracuda Books in 1983 in a series which included The
Books of Sherborne, Dorchester and Bridport. The financing
for the Wimborne book was underwritten by a subscription
list put in the window of a Wimborne bookshop. Local
residents signed their name, guaranteeing sufficient sales
to make the venture possible. Names of the first 350
subscribers are printed at the back: 326, 327 & 328 are
Robert, Edith & Patricia Fripp. (I looked through the book
with my Mother on her last visit to this house). Club
Members are, in effect, the subscription list which
underwrites Club releases.

        If the gentle reader has an interest in joining the
Club, and finds a regular breathing pattern not unduly
onerous and / or challenging to either their sentience or
customer rights, the telephone order lines for DGM CC (and
regular mail order) operation in the US are:

        1 (323) 937 3194
        1 (213) 386 2522

        The fax order line is:

        1 (323) 937 9102

        If anyone applying to join the Club has not yet had
a reply: worry not! The repercussions of moving our
(analogue) office are continuing to settle.

        Once again, if anyone has any doubts about joining
the Club: please don't. Have an easier life, and allow us
the same.

        Thirdly, each e-mail / letter bearing my name and
sent directly to RF at DGM is presented to me. I undertake
to read all direct correspondence. A lot of letters do not
need formal response or acknowledgement (which is almost
impossible). But, if you write to me, I will read your
letter. (The exception to this are three individuals who
suffer mental health challenges and have acted aggressively
towards me over a period of years. Their letters are not
shown to me).

        In addition, I read our Website mail as well as a
large amount of regular DGM letters. If you write to me,
e-mail or otherwise, please give your fax number and postal
address. When I am able to respond, this makes a reply much
easier for me (I use analogue and digital formats!).

        If you don't receive a personal answer, please don't
be offended or disappointed: if we / I entered into personal
correspondence the business would fold and I would never be
able to play a note again (or eat cake, or brew Monster
Cappucini). But I do read all the comments.

        Fourthly, for those enthusiasts who have an interest
in the financial aspeKcts of touring ensembles, the three
members of ProjeKct Two have just received the final
statements for their most recent leg of touring (June 28 -
July 8). The income for six performances totalled
$33,678.53, plus merchandising profit of $907.15. This gave
a total income of $34,891.80.

        To quote Richard Chadwick: "As there was a deficit
on the touring side, the merchandising profit has been
included in the tour income to help offset the loss. After
allowing a retention of $507.53 for accountancy fees, the
overall profit was zero. Unfortunately, there will be no
fees due to anyone in respect of this leg of the tour".

        Each player received per diems @ $40, which gave
them a weekly income of $280.

Sample Q. & A.

Q.  Fripp! You venal, hypocritical toad! You're trying to
cull sympathy by playing music for nothing!
A.  True, to the degree that $280 per week counts as

Q.  You're a useless businessman! Anyone else in your
position would have made a fortune!
A.  True, to the degree that I don't look on playing music
as a business.

Q.  You're a failure! If you played decent tunes with
singing, preferably songs which were hated by the majority
of rock audiences 25 years ago but have gained a small and
devoted male following since, you'd make a lot of money!
A.  True, to the degree that I'm a venal toad.

        Fifthly, Guitar Craft enquiries for Europe may be
addressed to Hernan Nunez, the GC Registrar for Europe, at
(tel / fax) (49) 431 52 8612.  If you have any doubts about
attending a course, better not.

        Sixthly, good wishes to ET, its readers and
contributors, in their finding of the purposes and value, to
them, of their Newsletter.

        Robert Fripp.

Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:13:25 -0600
From: Eric Preston <prestone at terra dot colorado dot edu>
Subject: NEWS: P4 in Colorado
Tickets for the Fox shows now on sale!  The Fox is a great
small (non-smoking!) venue, one of my absolute favorites.
Anyone not receiving email from the Colorado ET 'local
chapter' that wants to have a few pints before the show, or
is just looking for local info contact me at:
prestone at cires dot colorado dot edu.  The Colorado ET info listed is
a little out of date, but i mailed Dan to change that.  See
you there,


Date: Fri,  4 Sep 98 14:01:02 EST
From: Robert Gottesman <bobg at basit dot com>
Subject: NEWS: Fripp At World Financial Center, New York
In the schedule for the World Financial Center Arts &
Events, Fripp will be there on Nov. 17 & 18 at 12:15 PM and
7:00PM doing Solo Soundscapes.  Admission is Free. Thought
you might like to know.

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:58:24 +0300
From: "Jarmo Muukka" <jarmo dot muukka at helsoft dot fi>
Subject: NEWS: John Wetton in Helsinki
John Wetton Trio is playing in Helsinki at Stoa on 12th of
September. This detail is from Helsingin Sanomat (2nd of
September). It can be found from web too


Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 00:49:29 +0100
From: "Tim Regester" <xbe20 at dial dot pipex dot com>
Subject: NEWS: Bill Bruford plays in Suffolk jazz venue
Dear ET'ers

I have just discovered that Our Bill is playing at the
Fleece in Boxford, Suffolk UK on Friday September 11th see
web site http://www.travis33.demon.co.uk/live.htm for more
detail I have no idea what they will be playing but it cold
be pure improvisation. If any ET'ers plan to go, let me
know, since I will be there ( One less stop on the bus home
on Friday night). Cant really believe my luck

have fun

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:27:10 -0600
From: Steve <sws at rmi dot net>
Subject: NEWS: rocky mountain (usa) concert alert
Hello et'ers:

To those of you living in Colorado and the outlying areas,
tickets for the ProjeKCt 4 concerts @ the Fox Theater went
on sale yesterday (September 4). The TicketMaster agent
informed me that I was buying the first ticket sold,
according to her computer (too bad it's general
admission....). The shows: October 23, 8:00 P.M October 24,
8:00 P.M.  The Fox is at 1135 13th Street in Boulder. I have
been told this is an excellent venue, with drinks served and
table seating: great acoustics.

Also, a concert is planned in Aspen, with exact locale to be
determined.  So you there!

-Steven Sthole, owner of 'The Greatest Band in the Universe'
website at:


Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:58:53 +0100
From: "Brian Thomson, London UK" <bnt at ibm dot net>
Subject: The Duversity
I came across the DuVersity on a web search the other day,
at http://www.duversity.org - this is an organization
founded by Anthony Blake, who was on the staff at John
Bennett's Sherbourne institute during the 1970s, and who
helped manage the institute after Bennett's death in 1974.

It may be of interest to ET because Blake's using Robert
Fripp's name in advertising on the web site. On the other
hand, if the Duversity is an ongoing and active concern,
ET'ers interested in the path followed by Gurdjieff,
Bennett, Blake and Fripp may wish to investigate further.

(Personally, anything that invokes "holism" leaves a bad
taste in my mouth, but, hey, it's a big universe..!)


Brian Thomson, London UK
bnt at ibm dot net

"When people are fanatically dedicated to political or
religious faiths or any other kind of dogmas or goals, it's
always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."  --
Robert T. Pirsig / Zen and the Art of Motorcycle

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:19:46 EDT
From: Camzone at aol dot com
Subject: "The Definitive King Crimson" has moved
"The Definitive King Crimson" has left Geocities for this address -


Update your bookmarks!

Cameron Devlin

Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 16:27:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: flaherty michael w <z946128 at rice dot farm dot niu dot edu>
Subject: An Index of Metals: A Shorter Version
I recently sent this information to John Relph (Robert Fripp
discography).  I forward it FYI:

I thought you might be interested to know that the original
version of "An Index of Metals" is shorter, by approximately
4:14, than the current CD version (Fripp and Eno's "Evening
Star").  There is no major new section in the piece: some
sections are simply allowed to repeat a bit longer.

I first suspected that this was the case when I noticed that
the tape I made of the LP fit on one side of a 90 minute
tape with room to spare, while the CD is over 48 minutes
long.  I played the tape and the CD at the same time,
thereby confirming my suspisions that what was side one is
exactly the same on both releases.  Using the CD timer, I
estimate that the original LP version is 24:22.  A good
amount of the extra length comes at the end, where the final
drone is allowed to continue for a bit longer, but
throughout the work there are small differences--the CD
falls "behind" quite early.

(This information pertains to the UK Polydor version from
the 1970s.)

Michael Flaherty

Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 09:20:40 -0500
From: Amy Weissenburger <aweissen at ix dot netcom dot com>
Subject: Absent Lovers Review, 9/11/98
>From Entertainment Weekly, 9/11/98

Music: P. 133

Reissues: King Crimson- Abesent Lovers

This 1984 Montreal concert is rife with the sort of crafty
guitar extrapolations and fusionm-damaged exhibitionism that
led many to dismiss the group's efforts as highbrow head
music.  But even if your taste runs to less esoteric fare,
there's no denying that the two-disc _Lovers_ is as weird
and rarefied as larks' tongues in aspic.  You just know some
cutting-edge DJ will sample this stuff sooner or later.  B-

Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:55:19 -0700
From: "Marc van der Pol" <MARCVDP at prodigy dot net>
Subject: K.Crimson T-shirts?

I was wondering where I could get ahold of a King Crimson
T-shirt... I've searched various places on the web but can't
seem to find any.  Any help would be appreciated.

E-mail before Sept 8: reply to this message (marcvdp at prodigy dot net)

Sept. 8 and beyond: marcv at student dot umass dot edu... please dont e-mail the other
address after the 8th, I wont be able to retreive it.


Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 23:22:49 -0400
From: Kathryn Ottersten <otter at nfx dot net>
Subject: re: ProjeKcts and Crimson
Hi Crimpersons,

Dan K asked in ET 537 about the development of Belew's
ballads in the context of the current R&D.  His questions
spurred my thinking.

Fripp has referred to King Crimson as a way of doing things,
a way of making music.  It seems to me that he hears "the
King" (not Elvis!) at the point where the musicians connect.
I interpret this to be the place where they begin to play as
one unit - able to simultaneously play and react to each
other's playing.  I see this as being the zone where
practice and sweat come together with an unknown force that
causes the group to be greater than the sum of its members.

In P2 I saw Belew as being an integral component of the unit
and its cohesion.  His Crimson lyrics and singing vary from
serious and dark to wry and witty.  He brought these
elements to his drumming, which in fact added much to the
two P2 shows that I saw.  Similarly, though Belew writes
independently of the group, the songs do evolve within the
context of Crimson, and are part of a collaborative process.
He brings his own element to the group where it becomes part
of the whole.

For these reasons I do not see Belew as being from a
different school as Fripp & Gunn when it comes to Crimson.
When he is with other Crims then the music develops from
what each of them bring.  Gunn's solo albums are influenced
by Fripp, but I do not imagine Fripp writing "Indiera" any
more than Belew's "Burned by the Fire We Make".  Neither
song is particularly Crimsonish to my ear, but listening to
solo albums gives me clues to what each Crim gives to the
group effort.  In this way, whatever Belew brings to the
Crimson will be a part of the group.

Kathryn Ottersten

"They come better looking, but they don't come mannered."

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 20:33:56 PDT
From: "Andy Dean" <taxman51 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: DGM receipt
Scott Steele (ET #537), in reply to my announcement about
receiving a receipt/confirmation from DGM, inquired as to
where I live.  Scott, I am from northeast Missouri, USA
(where we're probably more likely to get a visit from
Hurricane Bonnie than King Crimson).  :)

Has no one else received a similar letter from DGM?  Surely
I'm not the only one.

--Andy Dean

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 00:56:25 -0400
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36 at sprynet dot com>
Subject: The ProjeKcts = King Crimson, sort of...
Hi everyone:

For those who read ET yet somehow aren't able to check out
Fripp's almost daily postings to the DGM website, I'd like
to share the most thrilling thing I've read as yet from that
ongoing monologue, an item posted by Fripp back on August
25th yet uncommented upon by those of us on ET:

< FRIPP > "When I returned from the P2 Mid-West tour, clasping
my about-to-be-becoming archive DATs, I played the two
nights in Chicago (at the Park West) and the show in
Detroit. About 25 minutes into the second set at Detroit I
realised that I was listening to King Crimson. I knew, and
recognised, the person speaking to me. From this, it was a
simple step for my thinking to move from "King Crimson - A
Single Trio" to "King Crimson - Another Single Trio", to "KC
- A Quartet", and so on.  In other words, fractalising King
Crimson works.

It is a qualitatively different experience to know that a
fractal contains, refects, expresses, embodies the whole:
and then find yourself witnessing this happening. Surprise,
discovery, embrace, joy, wonderment. But P2 is also P2; it's
not always Crimson.

Similarly, with the P1 we've been editing for "Live At The
Jazz Cafe", I recognise the same spirit which informed and
empowered several Crimson improvs from 1973-74. It's not
simply that two of the players are the same: the identity
behind the notes is also the same. This isn't
rationalisation. When we close our eyes and a friend walks
in the room, we recognise from sensing their presence that
our Friend is present.  Similarly with Crimson: when it's
Crimson, it's recognisably Crimson.  And, from time to time,
the King has been flying by these projeKcts and waving,
beckoning, to us."  </ FRIPP >

This makes me very happy to hear, as I felt "The King" more
strongly at the Irving Plaza P2 show I heard this year than
at most points in the three Greater Crim shows it has been
my privilege to witness firsthand since 1981.

My opinion is that P1, P2, P4 and whatever else comes along
are all *part* of the "Greater Crim" in its ideal state.
After all, when Bruford chose to (dis)play "admirable
restraint" on the classic improv "Trio," was he any less a
member of the band at that time?  Obviously not... in fact,
Fripp gave him a very real credit for what he contributed to
that track.

Likewise, does the current King Crimson lineup demand that
all six players be playing at all times?  I think not.  If
two or three or even five players were to lay out during any
given segment of a King Crimson show while the remaining
member(s) played, then the evening, if everyone (including
the audients) played up to his or her potential, is an
evening with King Crimson, no more, no less.

(In theory, this also means that King Crimson may well
reside in the highest moments of B.L.U.E. shows, but I

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when the Double Trio
next hits the stage in 1999, I for one will not be at all
disappointed to see half the band disappear once in a while
and Belew mount a funny-looking drumset during the course of
the evening.  Likewise, if Belew and Mastelotto were to
disappear, I wouldn't panic, given the reports from the Jazz
Cafe and Fripp's words above.

And I'd prefer it to a six-piece "Frame by Frame," actually...

Ideally anyone should be able to leave the stage, and the
music made by the band in the absence of one or more
musicians would still retain the quality that for almost 30
years Robert Fripp has labelled King Crimson.

And the DGM Club... well... it's an exciting time to be
here, isn't it?

(My apologies to Trey, who's read nearly all of this before,
some of it nearly verbatim...)

Steve Smith
ssmith36 at sprynet dot com

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:15:09 +0100
From: Peter Clinch <p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk>
Subject: Oh No! it's another DGM CC followup...
In ET 537, Bill N. assumes:

> I would bet most people that buy KC CDs have complete
> collections, and strive to keep them up to date.

Highly optimistic, I would say.  I know quite a few folk
with KC albums, but nobody with a complete collection,
including me.  Despite collecting music actively and avidly
for years I don't have complete collections of any single
band with a double-figure discography, and observe very few
collections that do.  Outside of a highly committed and very
small core, you won't get many people buying everything.

> 2-Frank Zappa has had piles and piles of live material on
> the market for years

...including the mail-order only Shut Up 'n Play Your Guitar
series.  And Zappa is/was far better known, even in the UK,
than Crimson, so consequently a bigger fan base to buy the
material.  They played Yellow Shark at the Proms last year!

> 3-Lots of bands much smaller than Crimson on labals smaller
> than DGM are able to distribute their music to the general
> public, even if the CD's come in cardbord sleaves.

But those CDs are the cream of their output, the very best
they can do, representing current music people won't already
have.  They are not sonically poor versions of music we
already own, so you're comparing Apples with Oranges.

> 5-I think that most people buy records based on music, not
> sound quality--therefore I think these albums WOULD in fact
> sell on the market.If I were wrong, bootleggers would not
> exsist. If some people pay $50 for a bootleg (of incomplete
> and dubius quality), many more people will pay $15 to buy
> the album on offical release.

For many (most?) people, a certain standard of sound quality
is a necessary precondition to enjoy music.  There's a
concert hall in Glasgow with the World's Most Boring
Acoustic (TM), and my former flatmate refused to see the
RSNO there ever again because the sound was so dead.  This
is a live, quality orchestra he likes a lot in a major
concert hall, but the sound quality is too bad to enjoy the
music, and you think hardly anyone will be put off by
bootleg quality recording?  I don't agree!  I will not buy
boots, not because I dislike the ethics (though that is the
case), but because they generally sound so bad the music
doesn't come through to me.

Bootlegs operate in a very different market.  Because people
will pay $50 for a boot and because they cost very little to
make and are shoestring operations with limited distribution
they are inherently easier to do than a mass market,
potentially high risk, professional production.  "Many more
people", yes, but is that still enough to pay for it?  I
don't know for sure, but "not necessarily" is, I think, a
fairer answer than assuming "yes".

> If it did, Eno, Sonic Youth, Fugazi and about
> a million other bands on that level would have stopped using
> distributors and record shops years ago.

Again, you're comparing new recordings and archive material,
and thus Apples and Oranges.  I don't have any Sonic Youth
at present, though I've borrowed some and liked it.  I'll
probably end up with a couple of their albums, and given a
choice of an archive live recording that is admitted to be
sonically below par by the label or studio albums, I'll buy
studio albums.  And back to point 1, I believe more people
than you think will be approachinng KC in a similar way, so
the studio albums continue respectable sales.  If this were
not the case, and most of the sales were "top ups" from a
core as you suggest, *why* are copies of Beat still selling
when "everybody" already has it?

> I simply feel it is a lot of DGM to ask of Crimson fans

Possibly, but at least they *are* asking, as opposed to
*telling* them, "sorry, no", which appears to be the
alternative.  From what I gather DGM was in fairly serious
trouble when their old US distribution deal collapsed: the
label doesn't have bottomless pockets to bail it out of
risky situations, so a prudent approach to getting material
out is probably a Very Good Idea: if DGM lost lots of money
on releases due to untrue assumptions, That Would Be That.
Think of the CC method as financial risk management and it
makes rather more sense, and at the end of the day you get
CDs you want, just that you pay at a different time.

No offense taken, btw. I just think personally that your
assumptions are either wrong, or at least that they're a bit
too woolly to bet large amounts of money on.  Sad that it
should come down to money, but DGM must ultimately pay it
heed.  Business history in all fields is littered with the
corpses of idealistic companies who bet the farm on the
general public deciding they should exist because they were
nice guys.

Peter Clinch			Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637	Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177		Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk	http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:33:29 +0100
From: "mark" <mark dot williamson at dial dot pipex dot com>
Subject: Thoughts about Projekcts and Crimson and another irrelevant question
> As I write this I am listening to THRAK again for the first
> time in a while.  The thing about King Crimson is that it
> has produced music that ranges from intense instrumentals to
> beautiful ballads.
[ snip interesting discourse .... ]
> Much of Adrian's recent work has been instrumental
> or compilations of past material.
[ and again - sorry I find large quotes annoying... ]
> they've produced an obvious "sound" that is the influence of
> the Fripp/Gunn school of music making.  But how is the Belew
> school coming through?

From these comments and also KC's own about how the last
studio album was just more of the same it would seem that
they are changing track. Also you point out that Adrian is
not producing ballads right now anyway. I think [hope] they
are pushing on to pastures new. For any musician the reason
you work with other people (apart from the sheer joy of
sharing music) is that they take you to places that you
wouldn't necessarily go yourself. Fripp is obviously a
driving force in the composition but the rest of the group
is a flux of influence as the ProjecKts seemed designed to
explore. I suspect one of the things KC are looking for is
something that is MORE than the sum of its parts and given
the immensity OF the sum of its parts that is a thing worth
searching for indeed.

One of the other posters commented on Fripps comments about
this list... Indeed this list is about its members though
maybe not AA more a kind of down the pub evening with a load
of similar enthusiasts.  Whatever - it is still a place
where I can find useful information and renew my enthusiasm
for excellent music... You should try the Tom Waits list if
you want to see a lack of relevance but that is not the
point. They are a interesting and stimulating bunch of

My irrelevant question (sorry for this but I got such a
helpful response to the last one...) is does anyone know
where I can get hold of David Byrnes "Music for the Knee
Plays" I heard a fragment of it on the radio the other day
and remembered fondly that I once had a tape of it (now long
lost). I don't think it was ever released on CD but I would
still be interested in locating a copy. Private email


Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:52:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: noel swasta <cloneme at rocketmail dot com>
Subject: KC playing schizoid man...Elp Playing Schizoid man...this is driving me crazy
  Dear Eters and all of you KC FREAKS!!!,

     Hello all, i recently placed a post here at ET in reply
to ELP doing a version of Schizoid man.  I went on to say
that KC no longer plays schizoid man.  I was swamped with
tons of mail saying that (at the 96 HORDE they did) (P2
played it) etc etc.

     Ok, I am now taking my last comment back and
re-phrasing it.  "Schizoid man is RARELY PLAYED by Crimson,
so why shouldn't ELP play it."

     Thanks to all who mailed me with their comments, but
crimson in the last decade hasn't played this song that
often, and apologies to ET and Toby for taking up valuable
space that could have been used for something more
meaningful....LIKE THIS DAMN DGM CLUB!!!!  OH MY!!!

Noel Swasta
Cloneme at rocketmail dot com

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:40:40 EDT
From: Camzone at aol dot com
Subject: "The Definitive King Crimson"
Hey. Just a quick note to say that my page won't be updated
until I can sort out my HTML editor, which is no longer
working for some reason.

I also cannot access the Web anymore. I think I'll have a
word with AOL.

Cameron Devlin
Webmaster of The Definitive King Crimson

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 08:24:52 -0400
From: TJ Mathews <dumela at nicom dot com>
Subject: Do it
I'm crazed about the potential for P4. I'm wondering if they
might rip up some instrumental versions of KC tracks. No
singing. No lyrics. Fripp and Trey flooding the cosmic
verandah.  I would prefer that Robert take a break from
listening to tape (this sounds like very hard work to me)
and expand the tour possibilities of P4. Give me live over
Club any day.  From the Jefferson Airplane, "do it," and
from Traffic, "no man is an island, ... he's a peninsula."

>PS over here, in Wales, IT IS NICE TO MOAN, WE DO IT ALL THE

This is one of the funniest lines I've read in ET this
year. ET is so serious. Anybody know a KC joke?  tj

dc - et     http://www.tidalwave.net/~dumela/index~1.htm

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:24:57 -0400
From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com
Subject: DGM CC in Stores
It was recently written.......

< BQ > But for those of us on the outside, I'll bet if you
really looked hard enough, you could find those DGM club
releases in cd specialty stores(like the one I have in mind
in Princeton, New Jersey).  < EQ >

Fripp has indicated on the DGM website that he does not
currently have any intention to offer DGM club releases
through stores.  He has also mentioned that some small
mom-and-pop type outifts have been asking him for the right
to do this.  I sincerely hope that he does allow some
limited release via carefully selected stores. In
particular, stores run by fans of KC and related music could
personally provide the kind of "warnings" needed to
differentiate these releases from the 'above-ground'
ones. And frankly, most people shopping in those kinds of
stores are not the ones being reached through
Virgin/Atlantic Megastores.  More importantly, it would
foster the kinds of relationships that could be a good thing
for companies like DGM, the kind of relationships largely
wiped out by the megastores. So I sincerely hope that DGM
will allow hand-picked stores to "join the club".  -Emory

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:51:35 GMT
From: aal at aws dot co dot uk
Subject: DGM Club and others
This is my first post so please be patient.

1} In ET536 Noel Swasta pointed out that "Crimson doesn't do
Schizoid Man anymore". In the UK a tyre company (Pirelli, I
think) started using Schizoid Man in their adverts, which
has resurrected the song over here. Subsequent to the ad
campaign DGM released a CD single with 5 versions of the
song and when KC played at Shepherds Bush Empire in 1996 we
were treated to a great version of 21CSM. So don't despair
folks, it's still out there.

2} I'm a fan of Led Zeppelin. LZ released one
live/soundtrack album "The Song Remains The Same" and have
now released a double album of BBC Sessions. I'm a very big
fan of Jethro Tull who have released "Bursting Out", "A
Little Night Music" and a fair bit of live material in the
anniversary box sets. This is a band that has been touring
(with only slight gaps) since 1968. Rush have released a
double live album after every four studio albums, another
band that has been touring since 1973.

King Crimson have existed 1969-1974, 1981-1984 and 1994-present (and
the current line-up has hardly been constantly touring as KC). Yet we
Frame by Frame (one live CD)
The Great Deceiver
The Night Watch
Absent Lovers

most of which are complete concerts.

This is a prolific output for which we should be
grateful. And yet people are posting to ET complaining about
the Collectors' Club being exclusive and wanting to be able
to go into the record stores and buy the records. I can't
believe some of the things people are saying about freedom
of choice. Without the Club these recordings would not
become available except as bootlegs. DGM has already given
the fans of KC greater freedom of choice than of any
comparable band. Led Zeppelin fans would surely weep to read
these complaints.

Robert Fripp could already be criticised for gouging every penny/cent
out of the fans and exploiting the market. If RF just happens to be
reading - I'm here, exploit me. I could be particularly gouged if DGM
happen to release the Royal Albert Hall concert cheaper than the
Livroom boot which I couldn't afford last time I saw it.

Please stop complaining about the Club. You have not been
forced to part with the money for what will no doubt turn
out mainly to duplicate what has already been released. Me,
I'm trying to raise the dosh! THe chances are that certain
other outlets will be able to get hold of the CDs anyway.

3} Fred Duerr, we need all the KC fans we can get, so get
better you hear.

4} Obviously people who collect bootlegs are evil monsters
that are killing music, but just in case there are any evil
monsters in the London area who might be interested in
trading tapes....  give me a post.

5} There is a fair bit of rubbish on ET. But perhaps you
think what I've written above is rubbish. You have the
choice to read it or not.  Personally, I'd like to thank
Toby for providing the service.


Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 15:13:56 -0300
From: sergio at sucesu-rj dot com dot br (Sergio Pecanha)
Subject: Michael Giles

Someone else knows what drummer Michael Giles is doing now
or recently???


Sergio Pessanha - RJ- Brasil

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:36:46 -0700
From: Nomad Stem <nomad at stemware dot com>
Subject: Easy Money
I've been reading about the apparent DGM distributor debacle
in these austere pages, and I've been wondering if there was
any way we could help DGM recoup some of the losses.

Is there any way we can find out which distributor it was
that went bankrupt?  And then who that distributor supplied?
And then what percentage of each purchase that went to the
distributor, and what percentage of that went back to DGM
(if I understand how the process works - correct me someone
if I'm wrong)?  If so I for one would be willing to add up
the number of purchases that I made that were affected and
multiply that by the money DGM lost out on on those
purchases and then send DGM a check for that amount.

If all ETers did so it would not only help DGM out, but it
would be an unprecedented act of support from us, the buying
public, toward the artists who lost out.

I've got to believe Fripp and Co would be taken aback by the

What do you think, am I crazy?


-- Expect the unexpected --

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:54:15 EDT
From: CURUGROTH at aol dot com
Subject: collector's club
Dear ET,

Re the current griping about a collector's club based on
subscription: IMO, this is a reasonable and time honored
practice for making music available to a select and
selective audience. (Many works of Beethoven, Haydn, etc.,
for example, were sold by advance subscription.) I
personally am not interested in paying $96 for more live KC
recordings, but I'll tell you what I would be willing to pay
in advance for:

A studio recording for which maximal effort was invested in
the process of composing, whatever that might mean for the
current incarnation of the band.  The way KC apparently did
this in the 70s (from descriptions I have read by KC
members) was to spend time improvising together and to then
distill compositions from the improv by keeping what worked
and discarding the dross.  LTinA, for example, must have
been composed in this fashion because for the tour following
the release of this album they played Pt. 1 more or less
note- for-note as on the recording (minus Muir, of course).
Given the prohibitive costs of getting the larger 6 piece
unit together for a month of this kind of preparation,
perhaps they could use another approach: sitting down
individually in quiet rooms to carefully plan mutliple
tracks and large-scale structures in advance of those
ever-so-expensive band meetings.

Of course I am fully expecting to be flamed for these
remarks. But the reason I make them is because I am
convinced that this band is capable of producing music much
better than anything they have recorded in the
studio. (Standard rock-song formats and simple, nearly
symmetrical structures like Vroom and Thrak, can get

Oh yeah: I would double my subscription rate if they would
pay someone to write first rate-lyrics or pay for rights to
poems by, for example, Dylan Thomas. (Oh what I wouldn't
give for a good KC setting of "The hand that signed the

So, anyone else interested in the possibility of funding
some serious compositional effort on the part of KC, please
respond via ET. (And hurry--I'm holding my breath.)

Semi-seriously yours,
Greg Karl
curugroth at aol dot com

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 19:26:16 -0700
From: "J.E. Von Flutten-Byrd Beckmann" <odsplut at ix dot netcom dot com>
Subject: Signatures, ice cream, figurines...
I found, and purchased, a used vinyl version of "Starless
and Bible Black" (POLYDOR DELUXE 2302 065) yesterday which
bears a signature on the reverse reading
"R.W. Palmer-James", penned in blue ball-point.  I, of
course, question the authenticity of this signature and
would ask anyone with any knowledge of such matters to
assist in anyway possible.  i.e., would Mr. Palmer-James
refer to himself as "R.W." and is he known to sign lp
jackets?  What would really help, I'm sure, would be
directions to an "on-line" example of an authentic
Palmer-James signature or maybe a biblio-photo reference.

Any and All Help Appreciated,

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:02:32 +0300
From: "Jarmo Muukka" <jarmo dot muukka at helsoft dot fi>
Subject: King Crimson related unnecessary information
This is for you who collects details related to King Crimson. There was a
short King Crimson excerpt in TV-series called "Vuoroin vieraissa". This
TV-series was first shown on winter/spring of 1997 and reply on this summer
on Finnish TV channel TV 1. Excerpt was from album Starless and Bible Black
and if I remember correctly it was from track Fracture. It was about 10
seconds and was similar to music played from about 6:44 to 6:57. I may
remember wrong (I saw this about 18 months ago). It was used in a nightmare

Another thing from Finnish TV. Channel Nelonen had a TV-show called "VROOOM
- ohjelma miehille" (in english it is VROOOM - a program for men).


Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:03:18 -0700
From: Scott Steele <scottst at ohsu dot edu>
Subject: David Torn; KCBQ?; good times; Fred; SAOTW
>(music by David Torn and Michael Brook are two great examples)

Mr. Torn's performances on Gongzilla "Thrive" have been
getting my attention lately.  Wah-hoo.

>100 All-Time Eternal Guitar Solos: Robert questioned the
lone inclusion of the studio "Schizoid Man" in a recent
guitar magazine listing.  My own choice would be his
improvisations on "King Crimson Barbershop Quartet," playing
which most every other guitarists are still trying to lay an
ear on.

Uhh, silence?

>Things are looking up.  We're about to embark on an era of
unrivalled access to the Crimson Vaults.  The current Double
Trio is starting to gear up again after several fecund
ProjeKCts.  These are good times to be a Crimso fan.

Right on Ted.

>PS - Good wishes to Fred Duerr - come on Fred, you don't
want to miss all that new KC stuff do you?

A garland of martian fire flowers to Fred.

>3. A live Sunday All Over The World album

Blaine - all three of your recommendations would be welcome
but this one would be particularly welcome.  - S.

scottst at ohsu dot edu

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:08:36 -0700
From: "Heilbronner, Mike (I)" <Mike dot Heilbronner at adidasus dot com>
Subject: Simple Equation
Let see here . . .

No Collector's Club = No live archive recordings for anyone
(including "Bill N. newguy at CYBERNEX dot NET")

Collector's Club = archive releases for everyone who can and
wants to pay $96 (apparently not Bill N.)

How does the existence of the Club put Bill N. in a worse
position than he would be without the Club??  It does not.
Bill N's actual problem is not the Club, it's that he
doesn't have or want to spend $96.  It is very unfortunate
that we all don't have $96 to spend on such trivialities as
archival Crimson recordings.  I am extremely thankful that I
do (although I work quite hard for my cd money) and do not
take the privilege for granted.  It is equally unfortunate
that this material and much more cannot be released at a
price point satisfactory to all.

Apparently, Bill N. thinks DGM would release the archive
material anyway.  This, despite the fact that Fripp has
already said DGM would not do so -- for a variety of

Then, in ET 537, Bill N expounds on the hows and whys of
releasing live, archival material -- citing Zappa/Rykodisc
and small-scale, indie-label releases as representative
examples of his point.  Bill N's latest post is loaded with
assumptions about the music business, DGM's financial and
commercial capacity, and the buying habits of Crimson fans.
The analogies to Zappa and small-scale indie releases are
flawed on many levels.

The Club is a revolutionary idea that's designed to meet the

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:28:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joseph Basile <basilej at yahoo dot com>
Subject: What ET means for me...
Hi, ho, When King Crimson reformed this last time I didn't
know. The Christmas of 1992 I bought the rehearsal CD . My
only disappointment was that they didn't have a major
lable. That April I was at a book store looking for a guitar
magazine, searching for anything on Fripp.  I see he is on
the cover. I read the CD was a rehearsal for a major lable
CD. I read they are going to tour! I run and by THRAK.

We true fans of ET remember how we had to inspect ,and
search, for even hints of any Fripp/ Crimson info. I am Glad
thoses days are over.

A year or so later ETers' tell me to be early for the HORDE
CONCERT.  Many non- readers were disappointed, and I was
disappointed for them.  Then last year for The 3 G show they
tell me to go early for the soundscapes. I did. Many
didn't. They tell me to stay for the whole show. I did. I
see several amazing musisians. I see a FRIPP Scorching
solo. So Glad I stayed, while others left. This year some
guy named Arnie, gets a bunch of us ETers together before
P2. We meet at dinner.  Made friends. Met some producer
named Chris. Some Eter told me that I would here Crimson
there. I did.

Last Christmas this guy name Bill Forth emails me, so I give
him ten seconds. Now this Chris character is trying to tell
me he is very busy with Crimson archives, and some DAM Club,
ya right.

Yes, I have found out about other groups, and I really
believe we would not of gotten half the releases from RF
with out ET.  The very best thing about ET, besides they
don't correct my spelling and grammar, is the friends I've
made!  Very intelligent, kind caring people, that I will
never forget.  Cancel my subscription? No I would pay dearly
for this.

Bless all who work so hard on this, especially those behind the scene.


Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:08:48 -0700
From: "Elston" <elston at jps dot net>
Subject: P4 in S.F.
When is ProjecKt 4 going to perform in San Francisco during
its upcoming tour?  The dates (Oct. 31-Nov. 1) listed in ET
are erroneous.  I called the Great American Music Hall for
tickets and was told the shows had been cancelled due to an
unspecified conflict and that no new dates had been
set. Does anyone know why the concerts were postponed?  More
importantly, when will P4 hit The City?

Casey Elston

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:35:07 EDT
From: Hocow at aol dot com
Subject: Glad to Have ET

       All the recent ET bashing and the taste of electronic
verbal abuse that Toby gets has prompted me to write
something I'd thought of before but decided against sending.
Simply put I want to thank Toby and the others involved in
running this site for providing us with it.  I've been a KC
fan since In The Court and for most of the near 30 years
I've been into KC I've been in a near information vacuum.
These guys are not regularly featured in the rock media.  I
discovered Poseidon and Lizard quite by accident in record
racks.  They could have been out for months for all I knew
at the time.  I used to pour through all the music mags at
the rack looking for any Crimnews whatsoever (King Crimson
guitarist Robert Fripp is rumored to be giving lessons to
Robin Trower. or Robert Fripp once again has announced he
has disbanded King Crimson.)  It is really great to have a
place to read the latest news and hear other fans, whoops,
enthusiasts opinions and thoughts.  I'm the biggest
Crimphile I know in 3D and my knowledge of the band pales to
what many of the ET correspondents are aware of.  Some of
the lamer stuff gets tiresome but you always know Eb will
set them straight in the next issue.  For every six degrees
post there is a colorful report from Robert Cervero (sorry
if that's misspelled).  The DGM news section is where you
can get the latest day to day report direct from Bouncin'
Bobby, but ET is where you can react to the news.  Anyway
it's a great time to be a King Crimson fan and I feel a lot
of the credit goes to this site.  Thanks to everyone
involved for a job well done.  Brad Wilmot What does a prog
musician say at his gig?  Do you want fries with that?

Mike Stok