Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #536 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 536 Friday, 28 August 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Toyah NEWS: ProjeKct One live CD(s) DGM releases Arlington,Giles,and Moraz ET is Good Re: DGM website: what's up? DGM Club - An insult ? Moon and Giles Rare CDs from Russia Club Class Wars More DGM stuff ... Sevens An earful Accountability and Rats Leaving the Ship DGM Club receipts Forums for KC-like-music discussions What Did He Say? Re: Fripp's postings Wanted: TGD A bootleg; Epitaph; Collector's Club; Moon; KC introduction; Project 3 re: CLUB ALBUMS Collectors Club Fripp and Prince should do lunch Diehards & The DGM Collector's Club. Arlington, ELP+Epitath, The Mincer & first Club selections A Flash of Pride RE: we've been hit by a spiceberg Re: Elephant Talk #535 Club Albums DGM Collector's Club No. 4 re: Club Albums A Reply the live ELP version of Schizoid man Suggestions for Michael Brook acquisition? Re: CLUB ALBUMS Re: ELP playing Schizoid Man ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:57:51 PDT From: "Clive Lathrope" Subject: NEWS: Toyah Article/interview in freebie "Nine-to-Five" magazine in the UK (Issue No.839 24th August)on Toyah's new play, complete with saucey picture!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:26:03 +0100 From: Stephane Alexandre Subject: NEWS: ProjeKct One live CD(s) Dear ETers, Just a short post to complete Michael's post in ET 535. Tony Levin wrote in his diary that on the 1st of November shall be officially released a live CD ProjeKct One. Here is a quote from Tony's Diary. << If Crimson followers are adjusted to that group, hold onto your hats: on November 1st, there will be a new cd release: "ProjeKt One" Currently being edited from the four nights of improvisation at the Jazz Cafe in London last December, this features Fripp, Gunn, Bruford, Levin. It'll be a single cd package, but also offered to the "Discipline Collectors Club" will be a double cd from the same nights. All these will be found on the DGM web site. >> Other great news from Tony. He hopes to be able to put out a double CD of B.L.U.E. live in early summer. He also talk about a new Liquid Tension Experiment CD, a tour with LTE and B.L.U.E., touring with Seal, Gabriel,... and a book about bass playing, ... to be issued in December through PapaBear (excerpt of that book will be on his web site. In 1999 (September) he shall also release a King Crimson photo book covering the 18 year (and likely including part of his preceding photo book). And finally, there is a short Crimson tour planned for September/October 1999. Stephane. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:33:08 PST From: akalnins at marshall dot usc dot edu Subject: DGM releases Hi, My first post to this list. I am curious what non-KC/fripp releases by DGM people find the most enjoyable. I have only heard two, the Calif Guitar Trio and Europa string Choir. ESC is a wonderful release, while I hear no passion in CGT's work, though they are obviously exceptional musicians and have a good sense of humor. But on the basis of ESC, some more DGM acts may be worth exploring. Also, on other topics, to the posters who complain that the collector's club is "elitist" or something because of the upfront payment required: I think they need the money upfront produce the cd's. So, while it would be nice to see these releases in stores, fripp and co. need our dollars to make these releases happen. It has nothing to do with attempting to gouge fans or to exclude people unable to send in the $96. Finally, I enjoy this list and I have no problem scrolling through uninteresting postings, so I don't think more judicious editing is required. cheers, Arturs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:15:07 -0400 From: "Dave Didur" Subject: Arlington,Giles,and Moraz >I don't speak English very well and my tape is not very good >-so it' very possible that I'm wrong-, but always thought >that in Arlington Fripp said: "If we're not loud enough, >perhaps you kid listen more attentively." The Arlington show is my one and only bootleg. It was a gift, and the most thoughtful gift I've ever got from my sister. The sleeve was blank so she (currently at the Ontario College of Art) designed a beautiful cover. It depicts a large white Bird (lark?) ascending near a pale full moon. It's strangely appropriate considering she had nothing to go on except a sticker labeled 'Larks Tongues era King Crimson Boot'. Regarding the 'Fripp Speaks' section: I hear him saying "If we're not loud enough perhaps YOU'D CARE to listen more attentively'. This is in response to an audience member shouting PLAY LOUDER while the band is tuning their instruments. The whole interlude is quite funny, really. > I sense > a similar original capability in Michael Giles' work in McDonald and > Giles; >I sense an artist freely creating and leading often the entire > composition. I heard 'Birdman' before any Crimson song and Mike Giles caught my ear. I fell in love with his playing and it was for him (and McDonald, of course. Who's this Fripp Character?..?) that I bought 'In the Court'. There's something about his playing that goes beyond what I expect drumming to sound like... I was very angry (silly me) when, on my next purchase (Larks), Giles was replaced by some boor 'Bruford'. Now I love them both, but Giles will always be my favourite drummer- by the way, what was his work like on the Ant Phillips album ('79, 80?). One last (irrelevant) thing... someone said, isuues ago, that Moraz got his start in a band called Refugee. Not so, he fronted Mainhorse long before that. 45 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:30:04 -0400 From: "Dave Didur" Subject: ET is Good >I find it important to state that without E-T, my interest >in music would have stayed in a dormant mode. Since >discovering the site, I've learned a lot about the players >and their side projects - it opened up some new horizons. I >can't say that I agree with everything that's posted (the >level of detail can be taxing at times), but it provides >some depth that makes listening to the music more fun. If I had never stubled across this site my interest in KC would probably have stayed focused on 'In the Court". I had read a rock encyclopedia entry about KC which said 'they went constantly downhill after their first monumental album', and I ignorantly believed it. I bought Lark' Tongues and hated most of it. I thought Wetton couldn't sing and the songs were pale imitations of past glory. I came here, though, and read some reviews- glowing reviews. Hmm, I said, maybe I've err'd. I re-evaluated and ended up loving it all. After that, I have bought every KC album I could, many solo albums and some 200+ prog albums as well. Progresive music has become a very important thing in my life and I'd like to thank the creators of this fantastic site for help making it possible (quicker). Cheers! Keep up the amazing work! and Thanks! ---- another grand site is Dan Barret's Gentle Giant page... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:39:29 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: DGM website: what's up? In ET #535 David Maclennan wonders: > Anyone know what's up with the DGM website? I can get to > the "front page" OK, but when I try to access the "news" bit > for the latest musings from Mr Fribble I get a "firewall > server - access denied" message. Firewalls are security filters placed around many sites, though they are generally to stop incoming, as opposed to outgoing, download traffic. Thus, the problem is almost invariably at *your* end, whatever/wherever you're reading: DGM know what they're letting out, so no problem there, but your system admins don't know what they're letting in, hence possibly over-zealous protection. Have words with your IT people, ISP etc. > Could this indicate that the upgrade of the DGM site that was > earlier mentioned is under way? It's probably unrelated, but in any case the news sections are being updated almost daily and the new releases and catalogue sections are up to date now. Maybe RF will spin off new pages for the Adventures of Beaton The Wonder Bun and Super Wonder Soup recipes... Pete. -- Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:13:48 +0200 From: tpoisson at atelier dot fr (BQUEDIRECTE Poisson) Subject: DGM Club - An insult ? Hello ETers ! Bill N wrote in ET 535: >> It is an insult to make certian material available only to fans who will pay $96 in advanceto be part of this oh so "exclusive" club of "collectors."Most "collectors"--this one included-- find that the bestway to collect is by using the affordability andavailability of record shops, buying music without having toput $96 deposits up front. Crimson fans demonstrate theirlove for Crimson music with a dedication known to few otherbands. Their entusiasm should be repaid with open access toall available Crimson music, not with clubs, advance depositrequirements, and exclusionary marketing gimicks.Bill Nicholas << Bill, "Putting a deposit in front" is the only short term solution for DGM to finance the release of collector material to fans. We should be happy that this project has become reality so quickly. It shows that "intelligent" and "mobile" are terms that really apply to DGM. Consider that without this club, many recordings would simply not be made available to the fans. The Club is a fair deal : you do not need to buy releases you don't want, you will be able to purchase other non-club DGM releases with your deposit, and (some) live shows will also be made available to non-Club members. (More information on this can be found on the DGM web site). About what the band should or should not do with their fans, no If you feel cheated, do not join the Club, and continue to buy bootlegs without paying artists royalties, but please : do not use this public forum or DGM as a target for your personal negativity. Thomas (ET and DGM enthusiast) PS: By the way, check out the hungarian band "After Crying". They often venture onto the same territories as Crimson, but retain a strong personality and are a superb live act. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:40:00 +0000 From: steve dot dinsdale dot 01 at bbc dot co dot uk Subject: Moon and Giles Hi All, With regard to Ray Raupers Jr in your issue of 26th August, the comparison between Keith Moon's and Mike Giles' drumming is an interesting one. What they seem to have in common is this desire to play the drum kit as a lead instrument rather than being relegated to the `accepted role' of keeper of the beat . This is a style which to this day is still relatively unheard of,in Rock music and personal experience suggests that other musicians in the band will usually panic if they are required to count for themselves while the drummer explores a little ! It's happened to me on many occasions as a drummer myself and never ceases to amaze/amuse me ! Of course the great thing is that you can slip these things in live performance and there's nothing they can do about it .....certainly helps redress the balance for some of those drummer jokes. Of course musicians of the calibre of the Crimsons and The Who were well capable of staying in time regardless of the drummer's exploits.The `pulse' becomes a felt collective thing rather than something directly provided by the drummer free of charge.It must be said that Billy B also had his fun when it came to this (building mid section of `Starless' for example). Keith Moon was certainly the most explosive drummer in rock, this largely due to his penchant for disregarding the hi-hat and concentrating on braying his toms as loudly as possible and punctuating each bar with cymbal crashes right left and centre.Giles' style is a little more restrained but more adventurous (and I believe has the `driest' sounding kit I've ever heard), most of his drumming is astounding to listen to even to this day.Interesting to note that as well as largely eliminating the hi-hat and thus rigid timekeeping, both drummers took on a two bass-drum set up instead and mercifully unlike the double bass drum abominations to follow (Billy Cobham etc) used this technique to great success. The archetypal Moon track has got to be `Won't Get Fooled Again' , the top Giles number ? I'll leave that to someone else. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:09:17 +0400 From: "Temporary" Subject: Rare CDs from Russia Hello everybody - For information of collectors: The Acoustic Adrian Belew (1995), Exiles of David Cross (1997) and Bruford Levin Upper Extremeties (1998) were reissued in Russia two weeks ago. Wetton's Archangel was reissued in May. Belew's and Wetton's albums are reprints of the Japanese versions; they have bonus tracks. In June, an independent Russian label reissued album Rise and Shine (1988) of Belew's old band The Bears. It also contains two bonus tracks from The Bears' debut album. In April, all three albums of U.K. were released in Russia on a double-CD. According to what is written on the back covers of all these albums, they were produced on a license from original Japanese or Western record companies. A couple of years ago a complete collection of King Crimson albums (from "In the Court..." through "Vroom") was released in Bulgaria and sold in Russia on six (!) CDs. Vol.5 of the collection, for instance, contained "Discipline" and "Beat", and Vol.6 - "Three of a Perfect Pair" and "Vroom". Most probably the release of these "collection" was a piracy. Send me a private message if interested in receiving these and other rarities. On a different subject - On April 17, Peter Hammill gave the only concert in Moscow. And it became a musical "event of the year" in Russia - comparable only to The Rolling Stones performance in Moscow on August 12, and definitely more significant than yesterday's (August 25) concert of Ringo Starr (with Peter Frampron, Jack Bruce and Gary Brooker) in Moscow. Unlike in 1995, when Hammill played in Moscow with David Jackson, Stuart Gordon, and Manny Ellias, this time he played alone. Instead of one hour and ten minutes, as originally planned, the performance lasted thirty minutes longer. PH was thrice called back to the stage. The two- thousand audience sang the end of several compositions, like "Still Life", "A Better Time", "Again", "A Way Out", with him. The last song was "Again" which PH sang acapella. Hammill has been a "hero" in Russia since the 70s, and - no doubt - he is more popular in Moscow than in New York or Philadelphia, where he once failed to gather 200 people in the audience. Also - I am looking for fellow collectors of bootlegs of King Crimson and other "progressive rock" artists (Genesis, Marillion, Fish, Rush, UK, Bruford, Karn, Torn, etc.) and would like to offer some of my bootlegs for trade or sale. Here they are: [ Please email the poster directly if you wish to see the list -- Toby ] Let let me know if you need any of these. Alexander Domrin (post at rflr dot ru; expert at jurfak dot spb dot ru) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:12:26 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: Club Class Wars Good Evening Frippies, Recent posts are looking like ETers are lining up into a club vs non club mentality. One group is complaining about the injustice of having to cough up $96 in a lump sum and that its not fair that this next wave of material will exclude them. The other group seems to be expecting deferential treatment as a paying member of the collectors club. While I sympathise with those for whom this is out of reach I don't think $96 for a year's worth of cd purchases is a hardship. I'm one of those eliteist bastards who came up with the money. Fripp's description of some of the material is that it is not up to standard for general release. The club is a way to generate upfront capital to release material with limited demand. The consumer becomes the record company by issuing an advance to the artist for material not marketable to the general public. This creates choices for the consumer that we are not used to but whichever choice you make you shouldn't resent the people who have made the alternate choice. Nonmembers are resenting what they will miss. I am currently faced with whether or not to purchase new general releases for fear of duplicate purchasing. Will "Cirkus" draw from club material? Will the 1969 Marquee Gig be different enough from Epitaph to make it worth having both. Will the Islands band's release be as big an abortion as "Earthbound"? Will the club versions of ProjeKct 1 and 2 be companions to the general release versions or include all or part of the general releases. How much more Larks Tongues era can I justify purchasing when I already have Great Deceiver and Nightwatch? For now I intend to try to pick up everything but this is the first time as a Crimhead I've ever had to question "Do I really need it all?" Anyway I'm rambling and my point was that I don't feel exclusive because I'm such a Crimjunkie that I have blindly sent off $96 to purchase whatever Bob decides to toss out. If you seriously don't have the money I sympathise. I can't think of many things that would gnaw at me as much as knowing there was Crimson out there that was beyond my grasp. If you are sensible enough to not want to join, more power to you for making that choice, if you don't think it is a good value. But don't start looking at your fellow fans as hated aristocrocy for ponying up the money that you have chosen not to. I think buying a lot of this stuff is overkill but there's always the chance that some detail or solo will be unique enough to justify owning it.So I have to have it.Out. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:18:32 PDT From: "Andy Dean" Subject: More DGM stuff ... (Andy hands poor Toby some black coffee and aspirin) In ET #535, Chris Van Valen lamented that he hadn't heard from DGM since sending them his check. I wondered about this too, and was about to contact DGM about it when I found an envelope in my mailbox today. It contained a confirmatory statement with a balance of -$96, plus a questionnaire which asked, among other things, whether or not I would like to receive the Marquee Club release. So apparently DGM *is* mailing out confirmation to Club members -- I suspect that if you joined the Club but haven't heard from DGM yet, you will shortly. Speaking of the Marquee Club show, it sounds great by Mr. Robert Cervero's review. I hope this actually IS the show DGM intends to release -- looking through my Epitaph booklet, KC played several dates in the Marquee Club in '69. Also, anyone who hasn't stopped by TL's Road Diary lately should do so -- his latest entry is a lengthy and informative one concerning his upcoming book. Andy Dean Earnest Young Travel-Weary Capricorn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:58:05 -0400 From: TJ Mathews Subject: Sevens According to my calendar ET just completed it's seventh year on August 19th. Although it did experience a name change I just want to say Happy (belated) Birthday! I'm saddened that Toby is personally flamed. If you're really pissed please just leave him alone. Send your flames to me instead - I dare you. Meanwhile it seems we are starting to observe the tip of the Club Complaints iceberg. ET is not the Club. tj dc - et http://www.tidalwave.net/~dumela/index~1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:58:58 -0400 From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: An earful Discriminating music fans and Rock musicians, did you know... ** Between SPL's of 0 dBA to 130 dBA there are approximately 300 perceptible "volume" steps. The ears greatest sensitivity to changes in volume is between 1 KHz and 4Khz. ** Between 16 Hz and 20 KHz ( for those fortunate enough to hear frequencies that high) there are approximately 1500 distinctly audible pitches. ** The ear is most sensitive to changes in pitch at frequencies of 1KHz to 4 KHz, requiring only a 0.7 % change in frequency for a perceptible change in pitch. ** At frequencies around 100 Hz a 3% change in frequency is required for a perceptible pitch change. (factoids pulled from an audiofile list...) David Kirkdorffer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:09:22 -0700 From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: Accountability and Rats Leaving the Ship After reading issue 535, Fripp's DGM site musings and the Trey Gunn interview, two thoughts: 1. Trey Gunn is correct - accountability is an issue with E-T, but perhaps not the way he means. Bashing Toby (a guy who as far as I know moderates E-T out of the goodness of his heart for no cash) with harsh language is gutless. I wouldn't blame Toby if he kicked the collective asses of those that wrote that garbage if they said it to him in a bar - why say it via e-mail unless you're a gutless asshole? If you don't like the way Toby runs things, start your own list or unsubscribe to this one 2. I disagree with Gunn regarding E-T content. Last time I checked, the name of the newsletter is "E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts", not the "Internet newsletter for obsequious, industry-savvy enthusiasts interested in actively seeking an exalted discourse with King Crimson members." I may be wrong, but I look at E-T as a forum to share opinions, information, and (hopefully) short anecdotes. I agree that people *should* be accountable for some of the info that's posted to E-T, and the Spice Girls games and so on were a waste of bandwidth, but (as Gunn points out) Dan and Toby don't screen new subscribers for their KC acumen beforehand. If you needed to take a test to be eligible to post, maybe that wouldn't be an issue (there's a job for you, Dan!). Until then, E-T is 'catch-as-catch-can' within the boundaries Toby sets and I don't get why this concept is so difficult for Fripp or Gunn to understand. If RF chooses to rip those who post bad info, I love to see it and appreciate the correction. However, I don't see why Fripp or Gunn waste any time being irritated at E-T - after all, it does keep the buzz about KC going year around, and that can't be all bad. Like them or not, those who subscribe to E-T appear to consume the product (i.e. KC and individual projects) at a voracious pace. Considering the economic, language and exposure issues that confront many of those interested in King Crimson, one would think people like Fripp and Gunn would at least be somewhat pleased at the amount of people who like their music. Now pardon me, I have to get back to reading my totally engrossing new edition of the Microtonal Tuning Times.... Grumpily yours, Eric "Opinions are like assholes - everybody has one" - Dirty Harry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:34:53 EDT From: MongoBoy at aol dot com Subject: DGM Club receipts In ET 535 , crv1 at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) writes: >I sent my check for the Club >several weeks ago. Don't you think that some sort of >acknowledgement or confirmation of membership should/could >have been sent out via e-mail or otherwise? I do. I know >that there's not going to be a release for another six >weeks, but still.... Amy from Possible Prod told me she would send a receipt in the mail as she acknowledged that we should receive something from them. While I placed my order over two weeks ago, my credit card hasn't yet been billed. RF at the DGM site DGM USA was in the midst of a relocation. I'm sure they'll get back on track shortly. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:48:49 -0700 From: Herb Heinz Subject: Forums for KC-like-music discussions Does anyone know of a forum (email list or ...?) for discussing music which is modern and progressive like KC? I find that most people, when they use the term "prog" seem to be referring to a specific genre which to me was only truly progressive in the 70s. When I think of progressive rock, I imagine something modern, complex, and *original*. KC is the only band I can think of that is still around and is both progressive in this sense and still considered "prog". Anyway, I'd love to find a forum for discussing interesting new music. Any suggestions? -- Herb Heinz herb at isproductions dot com http://www.isproductions.com/herb HERB'S NEW CD IS HERE! http://www.isproductions.com/herb/failure.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:51:32 -0400 From: "Barry Rogoff" Subject: What Did He Say? A suggestion made by a member of the audience at a concert in Arlington, Texas was repeated twice by RF, who apparently found it amusing. What was that suggestion? The debate rages: Was it "get on going" or "get on down?" Or was it something else altogether? If you'd like to hear the suggestion for yourself, real time and stretched sound clips in Real Audio format can be download from: http://www.tiac.net/users/barryr/fripp.htm Barry Rogoff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:38:18 -0700 From: Brian Arnold Subject: Re: Fripp's postings Emory (ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com) doesn't agree with Robert Fripp's advice on the DGM News web page, "Be a superb live performer. From this all else moves...." I know nothing directly about the music industry, but I think Robert's advice is consistent with the early success of a group that became very popular last year, Hootie and the Blowfish (no sneers please!). My sister once dated one of the members of Hootie, long before they signed to a major label. During a family dinner, I tried to set him straight, thinking an unknown, struggling musician should not date my sister. I went for the jugular, finances, and asked how he intends to make a living, fully expecting some ridiculous aspiration. Instead, his answer was: by performing well live. That sounded like nonsense (to use Emory's word), so I asked why. He said they started performing where they lived and went to school; at first, they could only afford to do that. In time, their live shows became consistently packed, and they attempted a deal with an indie label that went sour. So, rather than wait for a record deal to find them, they began touring up and down the east coast of the US, formed their own record company, made themselves employees, managed themselves, and owned the rights to their music. They made their own tee shirts and demo CDs, and sold them at their live shows. After I saw them live, I realized that although the band had no technical skills worthy of survival in the music industry, they had tremendous spirit, a great voice, and an amazingly large and enthusiastic following for a group that didn't even have a record in stores. I decided I could accept my sister dating him because he operated within the music industry on principles that worked, but she unfortunately dumped him a few months before they signed to a major label, before they made "Cracked Rear View" and before it went multi-platinum. My sister did subsequently get a free trip to some Carribean island with the band, though. Would anybody dare to believe that Hootie and the Blowfish could have sustained themselves financially before a major record contract? Yet it's true. I think Hootie's early experience is a working example of Robert's advice that the place for an aspiring musician to start is by being a superb live performer, from this all else moves. If they can succeed and others can't, I can only suspect it has something to do with an inability or lack of commitment to perform live. But I'm neither an aspiring nor successful musician, so what do I know? - Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:07:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Hampton LeGrand III Subject: Wanted: TGD I am desperately seeking a new copy of the Great Deceiver boxed set. I was told quite a while ago that DGM would be putting it out, but I just can't wait any more. If anyone knows where I can get a (reasonably priced) new copy of TGD, please let me know at honky98 at aggies dot org. Much appreciated! _ _ Rob LeGrand III Class of 1998 computer science | | | honky98 at aggies dot org Texas A&M progressive rock | | | cricket http://www.aggies.org/honky98/ Republican Party | | | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:07:33 -0700 From: Scott Steele Subject: A bootleg; Epitaph; Collector's Club; Moon; KC introduction; >Which leads me to note that I can't say that I've ever SEEN a CD bootleg. Well, I have. >What happend was that Lake, somewhere in the show, strummed his acoustic and sang the lines "Confusion will be my epitath/As I crawl a cracked and broken path/If we make it we can all sit back and laugh" with NO accompanyment from either Emerson or Palmer, and then they would launch back into the next part of the tune or whatever. This was at the end of Battlefield, a part of Tarkus. My favorite .sig file of all time came from someone who posted to rec.music.progressive: Pollution will be my Ipecac. >Hooray for RF's choices for the first three planned releases of the DGM Collector's Club. I'm getting goosebumps already! Hear hear. Great work Fripp, we really appreciate it. >For the exclusive coterie of the DGM Collectors Club, Mr. Fripp and the other memebers featured on each released collection will come to your house with the disc for a private playback and raid your refrigerator. So be prepared and have lots of cakes, cookies, and coffee on hand.... I like coffee that's strong enough to bench-press the refrigerator. I would be very happy to share some with Fripp and TLev. I'll leave the equipment set up in the music room, maybe we could have a blow as well. >I have been wondering what opinion ET'rs would express about Keith Moon's drumming especially the LP Quadrophenia. I think he's a fine drummer if you're looking for a wild man who has no plan when he sits behind the drums. Perfect for the Who. >As a die hard fan, I find it terrible that a slew of live recordings are being released to "club members only." Crimson fans are nothing if not dedicated, and i know that very few of us buy selectively, but lie in wait for the release of new KC material. It is an insult to make certian material available only to fans who will pay $96 in advance to be part of this oh so "exclusive" club of "collectors." As a die-hard fan, take a look at how much you have already spent on KC disks. If you bought both box sets, you're probably up around $96 anyway. I feel like I am paying up front for Bob's time at the mixing console, and that's fine with me. >Hi ET readers ! Hi! >Could you help me ? Probably! >Last day I was talking with my piano teacher (he's younger than me) about our preferred music and (OH MY GOD !) he doesn't have any idea about KC !!. He's a very good jazz & blues player but NOBODY'S PERFECT ...!!! After my exclamation he said : "could you lend me the best record to introduce me in the KC world ???". maybe LTiA ?, maybe Discipline? ,maybe Lizard ? , maybe THRAK? ..... I vote for the three disks on Frame by Frame, excluding the live disk. >This sort of speculation reflects only on the speculator, and not at all on the speculatee. Can we once and for all free this forum from all such Inane Fetishism? Some inane fetishism, but not all. >First of all, I think it somehow appropriate that Fripp has taken a John-the-Baptist stance vis-a-vis his online presence. If we wish, we can go out to the wilderness and read his postings there. I have a bookmark set for the page itself. It's more like going around the corner for a coffee and cake. >It is unreasonable to expect that most muscians will be able to survive economically or creatively in the current environment by playing local gigs and selling self-pressed records (not without holding down a full-time job simultaneously). More good advice can scarcely be packed into one sentence. - S. scottst at ohsu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:59:12 +0100 From: MH Subject: Project 3 Regarding Andy Gower's question, > What is ProjecKt Three? I > just [read about] the plans for > ProjecKt Four (coming to Vancouver, Woo-Hoo!) but I don't > ever remember hearing about ProjecKt Three. Any answers or > educated guesses? This would fall into the educated guess category: Having read most of RF's postings to the DGM site, it appears that P3 somehow morphed into something called Radical Dance, which consists of Fripp, Mastelloto, and David Singleton. The only other info about it was that a track would appear on the next DGM sampler.... .....but I could be wrong.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:44:25 -0400 From: Noah Green Subject: re: CLUB ALBUMS > >Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:05:35 -0700 >From: Bill N >Subject: CLUB ALBUMS > >As a die hard fan, I find it terrible that a slew of live >recordings are being released to "club members only." Hi, I understand your frustration and where you are coming from. On the other hand, I understand where Fripp et al are coming from too: namely, that a lot of these discs might not sell the volume necessary to break even on the cost of producing them en masse for record store sales. Particularly in light of DGM's recent financial difficulties, I can see how a lot of these discs might never have been released at all, without the channel of the club. With the money up front, and with only a small volume produced, the whole enterprise becomes much less risky for a small company like DGM. Of course, this is all just conjecture on my part. I haven't seen DGM's accounting books, I'm not Robert Fripp's financial advisor (luckily for him!), etc. Perhaps I am grossly overestimating the cost of production. But given the fact that there are not a lot of people like you and me in the world - dedicated Crimheads - I would not be surprised if these discs did not sell well in large chain record stores. If I am wrong, then that is cause to celebrate. My 2 cents (or is it $96?), noah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 10:31:26 PST From: Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au Subject: Collectors Club G'day all I think I've got to agree with Bill N from the last ET post. I'm a big fan of the band in cetain era's. I don't care much for the pre BB lineup and I'm not paticularly interested in having any more of the Lark's era live stuff unless it has Jamie Muir on it (I already have Great Deceiver and Nightwatch as well as the studio albums) but I would like to get some more of the 80's era band. I wrote to DGM but have had no reply on this issue. This is the reason I don't want to join the club because I don't want all the other stuff. It's sort of unfair. Anyway. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Fripp and Prince should do lunch The most recent Q Magazine article on Prince ('The Artist') relates the story of how he has been engaged for the past few years in struggles to regain control of his master tapes. It's his dream. Made me think that he and Fripp should get in touch to commisserate and trade advice. And who knows, maybe they'd want to play something together.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:32:09 -0400 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Diehards & The DGM Collector's Club. In ET 535 Bill Nicholas (thekid at cybernex dot net) Mentioned: >to be part of this oh so "exclusive" club of "collectors." >Most "collectors"--this one included-- find that the best >way to collect is by using the affordability and >availability of record shops, buying music without having to put $96 >deposits up front. Well Bill I for one have decided to put off all CD purchases for the next two months, I could have easily spent that money on other CDs, not that I could necessarily afford to. But one has to make a decision. If you want 6 new CDs of Crimson music over the next year or so, then decide to budget yourself, and put the money up front, or save and send the money later. Either way, you are getting a good deal, six CDs for $96.00. Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:38:30 -0400 From: JWC Subject: Arlington, ELP+Epitath, The Mincer & first Club selections "Michel Champagne" said: >Ther hve been a few postings regarding ELP "performing" >Epitath live back in 72-73 Actually, some of "Epitaph" was stuck into the (I think) second half of "Tarkus" for an extra long version of the already side long suite. Jim ***************************************************************************** This is an announcement from Genetic Control: "It is my sad duty to inform you of a 4ft restriction on humanoid height." (Genesis;_Foxtrot_;"Get 'Em Out By Friday") ***************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:39:38 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: A Flash of Pride In #535 Stephen Morgan wrote: > (the only continent never to have had an audience member spoil a Fripp-moment > by camera flash. Now isn't that a source of pride?) Must've missed the thread about that rogue penguin at McMurdo Station with the all-weather FunSaver -- probably the only flash incident where Fripp didn't walk outside. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:44:33 +1000 (EST) From: tps at merlin dot com dot au (The Performance Space) Subject: RE: we've been hit by a spiceberg >I continue to enjoy reading ET...i continue to laugh and >get angry and cringe and will not be unsubscribing no >matter how unfashionable ET get's...no matter who feels >they are above it. Then again I'm finding myself getting >paunchy, feeling middle aged, weak eyed and gaining an >uncontrollable urge to open a 2nd hand record store... perhaps,,,simply put...some of us are young..have only just (relatively) discovered the sounds...don't know what a melloton is...and/but are avid.."fans" in a classic sense...others of us were once as those are...but a little cynical about "fandom" choosing perhaps to debate somewhat more conceptual topics...diversity might be the name of the game...i saw KC at the free rolling stones concert in hyde park..i was young, i was a fan...now i make art for a living...and it's hard work...and i am working in a global culture often defined by commodification...and now my fasicination with KC extends beyond the wild 'sound' they make into issues of independent cultures and innovative survival strategies... ====================================================================== Zane Trow - Artistic Director , The Performance Space - Australian Centre for Research and Development of the Contemporary Performative Arts. PO Box 419, Strawberry Hills 2012, tel (612) 9698 7235, fax (612) 96991503 http://www.culture.com.au/scan/tps ====================================================================== Chair - Contemporary Music Events Company, cmevents at ozemail dot com dot au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~cmevents/ ====================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:01:16 -0700 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk #535 Club Albums This is in reply to the post about 'Club Albums'. Simply, and without any offensive, your reply is from one who knows absolutely nothing about the finances of running a Record Label, Record Distribution or the Record Industry. Your comments re: the "affordibility and availablity of record shops" is purely from a consumers view point. Who pays for the pressing, the artwork, the mastering? How does a CD get into your local record shop? What about returns? What about foreign territories? What if you're distributor doesn't pay you for your records? What makes an "Independent" label independent is where it gets its financing. Is Robert Fripp to personally put up the money for every Discipline project? What about the ones that don't sell? How many CD's would a KC concert from 1974 sell to begin with? I'm sure Fripp has gone on about this, most poignantly I remember in a missive a few years ago about the lack of people who order through the Mail Order, and this could cause the label to go under. But before you think it's too far fetched to charge $96.00 upfront to cover the costs of a "Club" CD, realize that IS the cost and reality of getting a release of this nature out. I run a label and mail order operation similar to Discipline - Wire Mail Order, for most things related to the band Wire. My pains are the same - if every so-called collector or fan knew how important it is to buy direct from the Label - and know how and where the money goes and doesn't in the record food chain, they'd obstenibly buy direct and everything they ever wanted would be available. But the Current Economics of the industry dictate otherwise. What Fripp proposes is the future of the industry. I am available for personal reply to anyone interested further. charles/wmo * -------------------------------------------- wmo at interserv dot com http://wiremailorder.com/ catalog at wiremailorder dot com updated: June 29, 1998 * -------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:58:54 PDT From: "Edgar Kausel" Subject: DGM Collector's Club No. 4 So, DGM Collector's club release No. 4 will be the final '74 show at Central Park. That's really great. A mythical final gig for the best period of the best band (i mean the whole 69-74 period). As Fripp said:"This was the first gig since 1969 Crimson where the bottom of my spine registered "out of this world" to the same degree. (...) For me, a stunning theatrical moment highlighting the tension within the piece and the group: a moment of resonnance". Nothing to add. But if you have TGD, then you have the whole Providence gig (04-30-74) and 2 long songs from the Penn State show (04/29/74). And if you're going to buy USA II then you'll have the whole Asbury Park gig (04/28/74). So, USA II+TGD+DGM #4 = 3 and 1/2 gigs in four days (in TGD you also have 6 songs from the Toronto gig, 04/24/74). I don't want to complain (I wish I had all the gigs of KC!) and we all know that KC never played 2 songs exactly the same way, but as far as I know, there isn't an official release of an early '73 gig. I think that in those european and american tours Fripp & co. played the songs in a different way, so it would be interesting to hear one of them. Edgar PS: BEST WISHES TO CRIMHEAD FRED DUERR. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:54:20 -0400 From: "Rob McMonigal" Subject: re: Club Albums First of all, hello to all, this is the first time I've posted to E-Talk. Secondly, I preface this with the fact that I have a high respect for Robert Fripp, and I consider him to be one of the few ethical people left in the music business. I'll defend his actions as sternly as I would a close friend. My bias being noted, here we go... Bill N wrote: >As a die hard fan, I find it terrible that a slew of live >recordings are being released to "club members only." Personally, I think it's rather presumtuous to tell Mr. Fripp what to do with his recordings in the first place. The fact that anything is being released at all is absolutely amazing. I would also hope you realize that this is entirely due to the independence of the artist/artists involved. No DGM = Little to no archival releases. Secondly, let us look at the $96 dollar price. That works out to 16 dollars per CD. That's less than the price of any Crim CD at your average record store. The reason it's needed in advance is to figure out how many copies to press. Fripp chose to make the cost only that of an average CD. If this were an "exclusive club," we'd be playing 20-25 dollars per CD---maybe more. >Most "collectors"--this one included-- find that the best >way to collect is by using the affordability and >availability of record shops, buying music without having to >put $96 deposits up front. Let me ask you a question: Ever work for a place that sells CD? Ever spend about an hour in one? I do. (I won't advertise by using names, but hello to the one Crim head who walked through my line, if you're here!) In fact, I'm a cashier. I get to see a good sampling of the CDs purchased. They aren't rushing out to pick up Absent Lovers, let me tell you. Try the latest Korn, Beastie Boys, Sarah McLoughlin (no offense meant...I own some of hers myself), death metal, gangster rap, or the newest country hit. The demand for a widespread release of a few P2 shows or early King Crimson in excess of what is out there now just isn't here. Yes, it's a Nursery Cryme (waves to all who get the reference), but it's life. Sir, I mean no disrespect when I say that I don't think you quite understand the costs involved in pressing and widely releasing material for the masses. If DGM tried to mass release several recordings of Crim from '72, '82, '92, or even '69, not only would they lose money, they'd also be bashed by the many critics (you know who you are) who say that Fpipp is just trying to make money off clueless lemmings. Are Crim fans loyal? Yes. Are they dedicated? You betcha. Do they, like you, buy lots and lots of King Crimson? Uh, huh. Is there enough of them to support obscure recordings? Sadly, that's not the case. >Crimson fans demonstrate their >love for Crimson music with a dedication known to few other >bands. Their entusiasm should be repaid with open access to >all available Crimson music, not with clubs, advance deposit >requirements, and exclusionary marketing gimicks. The only way these can feasably be released is to make them available only to those who ask, and who are able to put the money up front. Sadly, that rules out some people...it would have ruled out me not so very long ago. There's a lot more technical info, but I am not going to go into that here. I believe the DGM web site has them online. I'm just hoping you can understand Robert's position on this. I'm glad he's taken it upon himself to do this. I can't wait to hear these recordings, and I'm sure you feel the same way. Bill, I'm going to extend an offer to you: If you read this, drop me a note. I'll cover the front end cost for your club membership. If you want, you can give me the money as your receive the CDs, and pretend I'm a record store. If not, that'd be okay, too. I can tell you really do want to hear these recordings, and I'm willing to do my part to make it happen. Sincerely, * -------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob McMonigal Serving an obscure purpose for over 20 years! rbmst12 at pitt dot edu !!!Change in Home Page URL!!! http://members.tripod.com/~trebro/Main/index.html * -------------------------------------------------------------------- Official editor of Arts/Music/Styles/Progressive at http://www.newhoo.com * -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT) From: noel swasta Subject: A Reply the live ELP version of Schizoid man Hey all you ETers, In the last issue of ET we came to know that ELP is doing Schizoid man as an encore at their shows. From what I read in the last post "they should leave it to the Greater Crim!" was a quote from one gentleman. Just incase you who wrote in forgot, CRIMSON DOESN'T DO SCHIZOID MAN ANYMORE!!! Why shouldn't ELP do it. Mr. Lake was involved in the piece in a major way. The song is just sitting around collecting dust in the attics in our skulls. No one person has heard the song live, other than ELPs version. Greg Lake has been performing this piece solo for many many years. King Biscuit flower hour captured a good version of the song. (AT LEAST THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO DUPLICATE THE ORIGINAL). Taking something and mutating it to something else isn't a bad thing. So all of you going out to see ELP, and when they do Schizoid Man, remember, its the 90's, its ELP not crim, and take it as that!!! So long you FREAKS!!! WHOO HOO!!! (Crimson freaks make the world go round) Noel Swasta Cloneme at rocketmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:18:49 -0500 From: gwiles at nswc dot navy dot mil (George Wiles - G33) Subject: Suggestions for Michael Brook acquisition? I'm calling upon the generousity of ETers for suggestions. I've been reading about Michael Brook in these pages off and on, and recently received a tape from our tape circle that had a Michael Brook song on it I really liked. Any suggestions on a good first purchase for a cash-strapped seeker? Please respond directly. Thanks! [ Replies by private email only, please -- Toby ] ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... George Wiles Dept G33 NSWC Dahlgren VA gwiles at nswc dot navy dot mil 540.653.6904 voice, fax 540.653.7706 pager 888-579-8056 ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ...---... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:53:48 -0700 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: CLUB ALBUMS Bill Nicholas wrote: >As a die hard fan, I find it terrible that a slew of live >recordings are being released to "club members only." Quite simply, the only way this music will see the light of day is through the club. DGM can't afford to release this music through record stores, by a long shot. DGM can't even afford to release this music through their mail-order business without advance payment. If the club didn't exist, the only way you'd ever hear this music is through $30 bootlegs with crappy sound quality, released by fly-by-night record companies with questionable scruples. Even then, you'd only hear a *small* sample of the music the club will make available, because bootleg production is spotty at best. CD production requires time and money. DGM has little of either. When you have little time and little money, and you're in the business of releasing CDs, what do you release? How do you know people will buy the CDs you release? This is a pressing question when you're selling CDs with a marginal but devoted fan base, but it's even more pressing when you consider selling the music that's going to be released through the club. Multiple live performances, coming out every other month? There's *no way* they could make a profit distributing these through music stores. The only people who would be willing to buy multiple live recordings of Fripp & Co. are devoted fans, not the casual buyers that CD stores generally attract. Distribution through record stores would be a huge waste of money and effort when DGM already has a direct line to its strongest fan base, through the Internet and mail-order. Even among devoted fans, there are many that wouldn't be willing to buy multiple live recordings at the speed of one every two months or so. So, given little time and little money, how do you determine whether it would be worth it to sell multiple live recordings every other month? How do you know whether people will buy them? The best way is to have devoted fans pay in advance -- this way you know what the level of commitment among your fan base is, and you can produce CDs using a budget that accords with this knowledge. Advance payment provides DGM with the money to produce the CDs we want as well as providing DGM with a good estimate of how large a market there is for multiple live recordings. DGM doesn't release these discs to club members only because it hopes to be exclusionary, but because if they operated as you suggest, they would lose money quickly, and the company would perish if they didn't change their practices. This would mean no more CDs from DGM. Now, I'm not in the habit of paying large chunks of money for CDs I'll see a few months down the road, but the music released through the club is worth the sacrifice for me. If the club exists, worthwhile music will enter the marketplace that could not have entered before. If I join the club, I can experience this music for myself. If you don't think this music will be worth the price of admission, perhaps you shouldn't pay admission. No one will think less of you. But you should realize that the method of CD release that you prefer is not an option. If DGM tried to do things your way, the music could not enter the marketplace. (not affiliated with or speaking for DGM) Eric D. Dixon http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6072/ "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." -- Robert Heinlein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:05:13 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: Re: ELP playing Schizoid Man Why not? I'm sure there are many ETers out there including myself who would play a KC piece in a concert and who more appropriate to play it than Greg Lake and his band seeing as how he wrote the main riff (among other parts). Is it so wrong to enjoy playing a song you like? It must be cool playing it live too! So, I hope that if ELP want to they keep playing it and don't worry about the KC fans who know what's 'good' and 'proper'. Get well soon Fred! Stuart ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #536 ********************************