Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #533 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 533 Tuesday, 18 August 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Initial Club Releases; Fripp's Web Diary NEWS: Address for Guitar Craft information NEWS: New Sticknews Digest NEWS: Bil Bruford in Modern Drummer USA cover Christian Rock and KC connection Re: Overdubs On Fracture Apology Additions to the Double Trio Jobson vs Cross ? re Joey Baron Robert Fripp's personal space / DGM Collectors' Club Fripp Stand-up Dark Aether Project September mini-tour Re: What RF said in Texas Re: Earthbound era stuff. Projekct Two's False Dawn David Sylvian & Robert Fripp "Damage" CD ELP playing Epitaph (was ELP playing Schizoid Man) Great Deceiver Islands US import The Fripp Game RF in Arlington Exiles & Starless Lamenting The Full Mincer Wetton-era KC: Rants/antirants/question Ginger Spice link.. sorry it took so long Just a quick mention lyrics Absent Lovers TGD Visconti ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:37:49 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: NEWS: Initial Club Releases; Fripp's Web Diary I. There are probably a score of postings on this already, but just in case, here are the first three DGM Club releases: October 1998: KC live at the Marquee, 1969 December 1998: KC Live at Jacksonville, 1972 February 1999: KC Live at the Bremen Beat Club 1972 (w/ Jamie Muir) Mr. Fripp will also be offering "Projects" as alternative selections. I think this is a very nice set-up: the most popular material is to be the standard selection, but those who prefer something less popular can reject the releases and buy alternative selections instead (or, if the budget allows, all of it.) II. All this information is from the News section of the DGM Web Page, a wonderful sourse for the Fripp enthusiast. Robert is writing messages on the page almost daily. He also explains why he no longer is in contact with ET. Time and "dopey postings" are among his primary (and, in my view, very legitimate) reasons. Perhaps It would be best for all to simply read this individually as I am afraid of misrepresenting him and becoming a target of his next entry :). Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:58:39 -0500 From: Murray Kopelberg Subject: NEWS: Address for Guitar Craft information In response to recent posts inquiring about Guitar Craft, Inquiries can be made to: guitarcraft at usa dot net Murray Kopelberg, Registrar Guitar Craft / North America ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:36:28 EDT From: Sticknews at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: New Sticknews Digest Hello, There's a new online digest for Stick fans and players called Sticknews. Interested parties can find a back issue archive and subscription information at: http://members.aol.com/sticknews Thank You, Greg Howard www.greghoward.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:36:17 +0100 From: "Nick Smith" Subject: NEWS: Bil Bruford in Modern Drummer For any ET'ers who haven't already seen it, the August edition of Modern Drummer (with Greg Bissonette on the cover), has a page long feature on Bill Bruford in it's Ask A Pro section. He's talking about the kit he used on the "If Summer Had It's Ghosts" album, and also the rhythmic illusions he uses on the intro to "Indiscipline" from the Live In Japan video. On a slightly different tack, I've just seen an old photo of The Monkees. Mickey Dolenz seems to be using a kit similar to that used recently by Bruford, that is with a weird low tom set-up and a hi-hat in the middle of the kit. The hi-hat doesn't appear to be remote, rather pedal-less! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:15:34 -0400 From: Sandro Bassi Subject: USA cover Well, survey is over, and according to enthusiasts, the album is going to be double, but we all know Uncle Bob's last word is going to be on it. One last thing to mention as I noticed nobody asked, is to preserve the original concept cover (if the album is still going to be named USA and there is no legal obstacle to use the classical pictures, front and back), otherwise another beautiful painting from P.J. Crook will fit in this re-issue. Maybe inspired by and named "Starless" . Sandro Bassi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:24:52 PDT From: "kevin beaulieu" Subject: Christian Rock and KC connection There is some connection from KC to current Christian music. Besides Adrian Belew producing Jars Of Clay, Tony Levin appeared on Michael W. Smith's "The Big Picture", and Robert Fripp plays on Iona's "Beyond These Shores" and "Journey Into The Morn". Smith's album is a straight ahead pop album, but Iona is a band worth checking out. Very creative in the progressive vein with Irish influences. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:04:04 -0700 From: "James Henry Dusewicz" Subject: Re: Overdubs On Fracture Mike, if you carefully read thebooklet that comes with "The Night Watch" Mr. Fripp states uncatagorically that since this version was used for "Starless And Bible Black" album, it was overdubbed in the studio. For technical reasons he was unable to erase the overdubs because of the technical anomolies present when recoring the concert. So as I said--"Fracutre" has some overdubs on it. Sincerely, --- James H. Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:29:48 -0700 From: Herb Boardman Subject: Apology Hello. I hereby apologize for bringing up such a non-Crimson related topic as King Crimson. I will instead revert to playing juvenile connect-the-dots/musicians, and give even more weight to Trey Gunn's opinion that ET is a waste of time. "There's always the hope for us that the standard could be raised [on Elephant Talk] so that some real dialogue can take place. On the other hand, I subscribed to a mailing list for people who do micro tonal tunings, and the level of discussion there was infinitely more accountable and interesting than anything I've read on Elephant Talk." Trey Gunn, to Anil Prasad "Believe it or not, Elephant Talk had a very high quality of discourse in its early days when there were only a few dozen people on it." Anil Prasad, to Trey Gunn "That's what Elephant Talk is about really -- comments like "I think it's shit" or "I like this and don't like that." It doesn't seem like the medium for people who try to say objective or profound things. It's not unlike the Spin magazine readers' poll in which the 'hate list' and 'love list' have the same bands on them." Trey Gunn, to Anil Prasad And the moderator cuts my thread concerning musicians in the band. Very well. Goodbye. Mike Holst ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:22:47 -0500 From: jessica & blaine Subject: Additions to the Double Trio Fellow ETers, I assume some of you don't have much to do out there considering all of the recent inane posts regarding augmenting the Double Trio with keyboardists and sax players. I must align myself with those on the post who view these opinions as completely foolish and more importantly, unnecessary. A few points should be made. First and foremost, the current members of KC, from all that I have been able to read and research, have agreed that the "double trio" concept has not been explored to any degree of satisfaction. Musically, new members would further muddy the waters and destroy the "two trio" concept. Secondly, considering the textural capabilities of literally all the members of the band, what would said keyboardist's role be? For God sakes, don't say soloing! Leave that to the likes of the limping ELP. Thirdly, and this is just my opinion, saxophone is best kept in a jazz context. To me, a sax would dilute the power of the band. Want another reason? How about economics. By RF's own admission, getting all six KC members in one room either to rehearse or to do a show costs a HUGE amount of money. Add another (completely unnecessary) member to the group and once again costs rise. Is it really worth it? I think not. And one additional note. As a muscian myself, I would find opinions concerning the line-up of any band I was involved in to be laughable and above all, uninformed. Do the guys in KC a favor and leave your suggestions in a box. Assume they know better because more than likely, they do. Thanks. Blaine D. Arnold ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:54:58 +0200 From: tpoisson at atelier dot fr (BQUEDIRECTE Poisson) Subject: Jobson vs Cross ? In ET 532, jaxlad wrote : "The reason Fripp had Jobson overdub Cross's parts is clear to me...Jobson is a much better violinist, at least hewas in 1974...on the NW version of LTIA 2, Cross's tone is thin and pale and his intonation isn't perfect...why do youthink Fripp mixed out the violin in the Providence versionof LTIA2? Eddie's parts are full and rich and do 21stCSM andLTIA2 justice. I say if you do release USA again,leave theJobson parts on with impunity! " I say : These comments do not do David Cross justice : how can you compare studio parts with live parts ? As for Jobson being a better violonist than Cross, he probably is on a technical level, but I think no part he has ever recorded reaches the beauty of Cross's parts on BofS, LTIA1, Trio or Providence. David Cross is for me one of KC's unsung heroes, and I feel his contribution to the '73-'74 band is often minimized. Sadly. So let's have both the Cross version and the Jobson version on USAII , and everyone will be happy ! So long, Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:41:22 -0400 From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: re Joey Baron In ET 532, Mike Heilbronner writes: >Regards, Mike -- who wouldn't know a Tool song if he heard >it, but is anxiously awaiting MMW's "Combustication" and Don >Byron's "Nu Blaxploitation" to arrive from CD Now. >PS: Does anyone else think Joey Barron is the shit? MMW -- grossly overrated Don Byron -- grossly underrated Joey Baron -- yeah! I nominated him at one point as a good example of a drummer who could effortlessly sit in for Bruford (and do a heckuva lot more too -- heard "Down Home"? He fits Arthur Blythe well.) He seems to have become as indispensible to David Bowie's current sound as Tony Levin is to Peter Gabriel's. SK Sanjay Krishnaswamy sanjay_krishnaswamy_ab93 at post dot harvard dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:20:51 +0100 From: David King Subject: Robert Fripp's personal space / DGM Collectors' Club Dear ETers, As a KC/RF enthusiast of some 22 years (I began with Starless and Bible Black when I was 15), I've been reading ET for some while (responding with amusement, piqued curiosity, and - I'm afraid - a certain amount of boredom, in equal parts). Though I've occasionally felt compelled to add something myself to the often intelligent and heartfelt postings, it has been the (tired old?) thread about Fripp's personality and his approachability, and Robert's own contributions to this subject in terms of the audience-performer relationship, which has finally prompted me out of lurkerhood. I've seen Fripp at a number of events over the years; The League of Gentlemen, Discipline, King Crimson, Sunday All Over The World, the double trio. On a few occasions I have met and spoken with him, but it has been the awkwardness of the last occasion (in 1988) which has unfortunately remained with me - and which I'm probably exorcising here. I first saw Fripp in The League of Gentlemen at the very crowded, underground Brady's Club in Liverpool, 1980. Having got used to the measured overwhelm and unrestrained angular racket of KC's mid-70's albums, TLoG was not at all what I or my friends expected, but it was compelling and satisfactorily noisy. (Fripp announced he wanted no photography and was of course ignored. I remember him looking up, while playing, and shaking his head - uh-uh; I said no photography - to someone pointing a lens.) After the gig, there was an uncomfortable exodus to the bar. I stayed at the steel barriers surrounding the stage, kind of reflecting on what TLoG was about. Unseen, Fripp appeared with a bottle of beer, edged out between the barriers and wandered amiably towards me. I smiled, said I'd really enjoyed the show, he asked me more of what I thought, and we talked in the darkness for about ten minutes or more. He thought me rather young to be an 'old' Crimson fan. I asked 'why TLoG?', and I seem to remember him saying that one of the reasons was that Crimson, as it had come to be, had cut him off from reaching the audience. He then said that he was, however, going to resurrect something like KC and had asked Peter Hammill (another of my then heroes) to front. (PH had declined.) I asked a number of silly questions, such as how he was able to run through 'Fracture' without slip (he shrugged; "practice"). A propos nothing, he was telling me a number of things about the TLoG album. With a little amusement he noted he was going to incorporate his recording of Sara Lee enjoying an orgasm. (Is this one reason why we can't get the TLoG album in its original form-?) Others began listening in, and when the jostling started I said thanks again and goodbye. I was left thinking how friendly, accessible and voluble he was. I next met Fripp (in 'Discipline', supported by The Lounge Lizards) the next year at the Mountford Hall in Liverpool; a fantastic concert to which I brought my 15 year old sister. After the show, my friends and I simply hung around in the Hall for a long while and I think the security guard who wanted to shut the place up went backstage to tell the group that they had some fans who would like to say hello. They all came out, packing up the last of their stuff, and we had a quick chat with them. Fripp said he remembered me from the previous year, and, though evidently tired, was polite but slightly standoffish. I realised we'd been rather pushy to meet them. The last time was in 1988 on the Thekla, a boat in Bristol, at a concert by Sunday All Over The World. To my shame, I came across Fripp in the gents (I hasten to add I had not followed him in!) and, on the way out, decided rather brazenly to catch his attention and ask whether there would be an album by this group. He stood still, stared at me and without any expression curtly said "Yes." He continued to stare, as if to challenge me to continue being so impudent. (For a moment I thought perhaps he half-recognised me and wondered if I was some kind of stalker.) I had of course rather hoped to engage him further and ask about future plans and so on, but, cut off, I replied (as if to ask 'What's the problem?') 'Thanks; I just wanted to know." He nodded and we walked out. Euch. I seriously was left with the impression that the teachings of Gurdjieff had finally left him humourless and very strange. I'm writing this as it seems to mirror the 'different faces of Fripp' confusion, and after reading Robert's own thoughts on this, I see quite clearly that the problem has been with me. Put simply, there is a difference between being approached by the artist, and 'cornering' him in the toilet! Though on each occasion I had consciously wanted to avoid being perceived as what Hammill once called an 'energy vampire', I still acted on the assumption that buying the records and attending the shows of Fripp-as-he-expresses-himself somehow earned me the right to intrude on Fripp-irrespective. This is wrong. What is more, I think it is precisely the sort of dynamic which deadens my relationship to his music, and the relationship he might like to have with me through his music. I imagine that, for Fripp, forcing the artist to react - pressuring them to give something of themselves over; to meet and be met - must sometimes be rather like someone pointing a microphone or camera lens at a performance. It is letting down the relationship which makes the music possible. In this respect, I think his occasional behaviour to those who approach, often in an 'innocuous' way, is understandable. Many artists, I would think, are anxious to offer their art in precisely the way they want it conveyed - and not to have it anticipated, (incorrectly) pre-empted, or wrested from them. I believe it is a measure of Fripp's astuteness and feel for his art (and in particular his realisation of the necessity, for his own music to work, that the audience honours his intentions and his right to control) that he feels invasion of personal space is part and parcel of this. We make live music work, I think, by being before it as it is offered, not by capturing it or trying to own a bit of the artist. Neither Fripp nor his music is a jukebox. I certainly don't mean to be hard on those who have made their own unsolicited (but 'innocent') approaches, but am just raising what I now see may be the problem, having thought over my own experience from quite a long while ago. The question "Why couldn't he have just been civil and said 'hello'?" overlooks what the fan was really expecting, and which Fripp probably now knows all too well. In addition (trying to put myself in Mr.Fripp's shoes), I think I would want to reserve the right occasionally to be cranky if I were continually approached out of the blue by people who I suspected felt it their right to voice their appreciation, then to retain my attention with this and that question - however nice they seemed! Sorry if this all sounds a bit sober, but it felt good to air my miserable culpability! A quick word about the recorded music: Like others, I think the DGM Collectors' Club is an enlightened idea, not just in the way that more music is made available but that it is to a good extent undertaken in partnership with the audience. (If only the Zappa Family Trust would similarly unearth the Utility Muffin Research Kitchen vaults.) From what I've read no-one has suggested that rare and neglected tracks be re-released. I wonder if this would be possible, considering copyright, and so on? I'd love to have the discarded tracks from the original God Save The Queen, the original vinyl version of 'Disengage' (with Hammill more furious), the 11-minute Marriagemuzik, the discarded League of Gentlemen tracks (or rather a re-release of the album itself), and so on. This forgotten music doesn't seem to get much mention in ET. Lastly, I just want to thank Robert Fripp and his co-conspirators for the passion and barely controlled mayhem he's wreaked on my hi-fi for the last couple of decades. It still gives me goosebumps. Regards, David King. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:24:35 EDT From: Bolinhed at aol dot com Subject: Fripp Stand-up Toby, the Betty Ford Clinic is in your future if we keep it up - but here's your Sieer Nevada Pale Ale - <<<< This leads me to a second point, with regards to Fripp's stage announcements and future archival releases. I agree that a CD of improvs is a great idea. I have long pushed for the "legendary" Central Park improv to see the light of day. I would also like to have a collection of improvs include some of Fripp's announcements. As an avid boot collector, these bits of stage banter are as sought after as the improvs. Each one is unique, from the '74 Felt Forum show where he discusses his run-in w/ the infamous 'Plaster Caster" girls, to the '73 London Rainbow show where Fripp reads press clippings (both positive and negative) and then trys to demonstrate "the Mince" dance steps, to the '73 Waterbury CT gig where he asks if it is true that they are in Alice Cooper's hometown. Undoubtedly there are countless other gems waiting to be heard, along with many improvtreasures. >>>> These are amazing! OK DGM club, how about an album of Fripp one-liners? An Evening At The Improv? Tell me it wouldn't be better than Adam Sandler! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:57:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam Levin Subject: Dark Aether Project September mini-tour The Dark Aether Project is: Adam Levin: Warr 8 String Touch Style Guitar/Loops Yaman Aksu: Fretted and Fretless Guitars/Guitar Synth Brian Griffin: Drums Guest vocalists: # Jason Wilson (Emerald Tiers) * Ray Weston (Echolyn/Still/Always Almost) "...jazz-inflected, often minimalistic...foreboding soundscape[s]... classy...offers mature musicianship without pretentiousness." - John Collinge, Progression Magazine "...intense and blistering lead work...amazing loops and shimmering textures that are at once haunting and dreamlike...worthy of attention." - Peter Thelen, Expose 9/4 - Local 506 - 506 West Franklin St. Chapel Hill NC * with Ozone Quartet and Smokin' Granny 9/8 - Phantasmagoria - 11319 Elkin St. Wheaton MD (Washington DC area) # with Flower Kings (from Sweden) 9/12 - Orion Studios - 2903 Whittington Ave. Baltimore, MD # with A Piedi Nudi (from Italy) and Par Lindh Project (from Sweden) 9/19 - LionFish - 614 N. 2nd St. Philadelphia, PA * with Three Hour Detour (From New Jersey) As always, you can visit The Dark Aether Project Web Site at http://www.darkaether.net/ for directions to the venues, news updates, soundbites from the debut CD and more. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:16:22 EDT From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Re: What RF said in Texas Barry Rogoff quoted Fripp in Arlington: >I should think that the American meaning of 'get on >going' and the English one, they're probably completely >different... the English one is rather rude!" Fripp's Dorset twang must be more impenetrable than I thought. Both contributors who have quoted this announcement got it wrong. The expression Fripp is referring to is "Get on down." Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html Yee-hah... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:18:57 -0700 From: "James Henry Dusewicz" Subject: Re: Earthbound era stuff. I agree with the person who requested more Earthbound era stuff. That era is so sadly missing in the DGM output. How about an expanded Earthbound Robert? Islands has some real classic KC on it. The whole first side is phenomal. But to defend RF. Dick's Picks (GD), started out very slowly at first---now it is up to volume eleven!! How about releasing 3cd formats? The Grateful Dead seem to be surviving at doing just that. Sincerely, --- James H. Dusewicz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 12:38:33 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: Projekct Two's False Dawn From a teenager to my twenties, moving from shop to shop like shards of twisted metal, rock `n' roll was all the world to me. Early mornings "Starless" and "Red" would be on the headphones, Crimson's great electric attack; it was music like this and Genesis and Floyd that opened the possibilities of a life away from the concrete hours, the America Adrian nails in its dehumanizing and helpless reality in "Cage." By my mid-thirties, I came to feel that much of life was decadent, especially rock `n' roll. After getting kicked in the head at a White Zombie concert, I thought, okay, that's it: rock is for kids; its a door I can no longer open. I have spent most of my life since then involved in classical genres (It's great the positive response Arnold Schonberg has received in the last few issues of ET; far more positive than I encounter on classical boards), giving way most of my rock CDs, hanging on to "Frame by Frame", which I felt was a great compilation by Robert given the constraints of fitting 15 years of music within in a four-hour frame. A friend told me about the "Night Watch" release: it was great, crank up the amp and wait for the neighbors to call the police; totally kicker, full-tilt rockers, open the floodgates and be damned the shop-worn cliches, four beats and dead drunk at the bar; and I found out about Discipline Global Mobile Records and Elephant Talk (the best music site on the web) and all the music King Crimson family and friends have been doing in the years since. I've been really happy, and listening to lots of bands, buying lots of records. The Projekct Two concert was really happy. Robert and Adrian and Trey could have played from night till day. There was so much music going on that I wanted to return to the front of the door and hear the concert all over again, for all that I missed on first hearing. I have since attended concerts by Yes, John Scofield, and Tori Amos, and bought a ticket for the Bauhaus concert later this month. A couple of days ago I saw a Green Day concert on cable; they were totally obnoxious, with no musicality; it was all posing, with none of the unrelenting fire and images that marked bands like Clash, XTC, Jam, and Gang of Four; now I feel that concerts like Projekct Two are the exception, that most bands are working by the paint-by-numbers method. Any concerts by Adrian, or Bill Bruford's Earthworks, the Trey Gunn Band, Robert Fripp's Soundscapes, and like-minded artists diverse as Michael Brook, David Torn, and Steve Hackett, and I'll be there faster than the cat out the door; but all the rest leaves me feeling empty and old. I just received the John Wetton biography from The Artist's Workshop. I have no idea what John has been doing between the first UK album, having yet to hear any Asia, and his guesting on Steve Hackett's 'Watcher of the Skies' record. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:41:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Rushton Subject: David Sylvian & Robert Fripp "Damage" CD I just put my copy of David Sylvian and Robert Fripp's "Damage" 24-carat gold CD with 32-page colour booklet, box cover, jewel box, and jewel box sleeve up for bid at Ebay. It's in excellent shape, rarely played, and no tears in the booklet sleeve. If you're interested: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=25573281 Bidding continues until 08/21/98 13:23:32 PDT (US) == Stay young and keep in touch, Mark Rushton Author of the Bill Nelson Web Site http://www.billnelson.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:37:00 -0400 From: dschippe at ford dot com (David Schipper (R)) Subject: ELP playing Epitaph (was ELP playing Schizoid Man) Manuel Fernandez wrote: >Now ELP are playing Schizoid Man. I'd love to hear it! They'll never play >Epitaph, though. That means Keith Emerson would actually have to play a >Mellotron!.... BUT they did do bits and pieces of Epitaph. Check out the live "Welcome Back My Friends....". It was their triple live lp put out just after "Brain Salad". They go into Epitaph at the end of the Tarkus Suite, if my memory serves me right. Dave S. ... NP: Card & Talbot - Brother to Brother - Come To The Table ........................................................................... Be a clone and kiss conviction good night Cloneliness is next ot Godliness - RIGHT!!! I'm grateful that they showed me the way 'cause I could never know the way To serve Him on my own -- I want to be a clone. - Steve Taylor - ........................................................................... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:21:23 PDT From: "Jon Benfield" Subject: Great Deceiver FOR SALE One Copy of Great Deceiver $40 OR BEST OFFER...4 CD's in excellent condition............ INCLUDES BOOKLET ... unfortunately the original box is lost... but...most used copies go for $60 and above. Please confine responses to personal email jaxlad at hotmail dot com or moorejia at aol dot com happy hunting, jaxlad ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:45:18 +0100 From: "Dave Goldsmith" Subject: Islands US import Hi all, has anyone else out there got a copy of Islands EGCD5 the "Definitive Edition" that has a problem with sound quality starting about 3 mins. into Formentera Lady (only on this track), is it on vinyl as I can't play my original at the moment, or have I just got a duff copy? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:54:06 -0500 From: "Alias" Subject: The Fripp Game Frip Game : Spice Girls 1. The Spice girls suck 2. Someone who sucks made a suggestion in ET that forces me to sift through this Fripp Game crap. 3. From 2, I suck and I like Fripp music. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:25:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: RF in Arlington I don't speak English very well and my tape is not very good -so it' very possible that I'm wrong-, but always thought that in Arlington Fripp said: "If we're not loud enough, perhaps you kid listen more attentively." Funny quote... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:11:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: Exiles & Starless Looking at very old ET letters, i found an interesting question that was never properly answered (in ET). Who played the piano and flutes in "Exiles"? (someone suggested piano was played by Tippet; Mmmm...). Another similar question: who played string bass in the '3"50 of "Starless"? I can't believe that is a mellotron and can't find string bass playing in any other song of "Red" album. Waiting for your answers, EK. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 01:51:00 -0400 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Lamenting The Full Mincer In ET 532 Edgar Spoke: >> I'm surprised that nobody has ever asked for >> the complete version of beautiful "The Mincer" in Zurich. I might be mistaken, but I do think that "The Mincer" was one of those unfortunate instances where the Tape Machine ran out of tape, or something. Thus the need for the overdubs on S&BB. Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 00:39:56 -0400 (EDT) From: david vella Subject: Wetton-era KC: Rants/antirants/question Greetings, E-Talkers, I have decided to surface from lurk-mode in order to vent a small rant (or is it an anti-rant?) and ask a question. First, in ET #532 (?) someone complains about the number of Wetton-era KC archive releases from DGM recently, followed by a plea for a recording from the Lizard - Islands period. I agree (enthusiastically!) about the request from the Lizard era and (slightly less enthusuastically) from the Islands era, but I take particular issue with the complaint about the Wetton-era releases. At the risk of repeating a point which has been OFTEN made in this newsletter, if you don't wish to hear a particular release, then vote with your wallet and DON'T BUY IT! But in my opinion it is unjustifiably selfish and arrogant to expect the artist to avoid releasing it simply because one person (or a hundred people) has heard enough of that particular incarnation of the band. When Fripp et. al. release the Lizard/Island era shows (if they do at all), will I buy them? Yes, of course, but meanwhile, as a KC fan for 30 years who has never once purchased a bootleg (and as one who very foolishly sold his copies of Earthbound and USA years ago), the ability to purchase now on CD the Nightwatch as well as a new, expanded version of USA appears to me to be akin to dying and going to heaven. How many of the subscribers would support Toby should he decide to never again allow a post which could be answered by the phrase "if you don't like it, don't buy it!"? I would..... And now, my question: As noted above, I foolishly sold my copies of Earthbound and USA. This was a good 15 years ago or more. However, not so foolishly, I taped them on cassette before doing so, but I jumbled up the order of the songs and have since lost the label. After many years, I recently put that tape on and heard it again as if anew. Among other things which I noted, I remembered why I played that tape so seldomly - the sound quality of the Earthbound recording - it all comes back now....(although the sound quality is poor, I can't complain about the energy of the playing, such as the Earthbound version of Schizoid man - and yes, to refer back to a previous post - Ian Wallace does some great things with the bass drum in that recording)..., but I digress.... My question is - there is a song on my tape which I don't remember or recognize. It clearly is not from Earthbound since Wetton is singing and there are violin parts, so it must be from USA unless I somehow managed to record something else off the radio or from somebody else's collection....in any case the lyrics say something about being a "driver on an underground train...." Can somebody tell me what this song is and why it never appeared on a studio recording? Please respond by private email to dvella at skidmore dot edu (Also if anyone would be kind enough to record a cassette of Earthbound and/or USA with the songs in the proper order, I'd be glad to send the blank cassette and pay all postage...) Finally, before returning to lurk-mode, I'd like to add my 2 cents about the keyboard in KC debate: I "vote" to keep the double trio as is, without a regular keyboard player, UNLESS: (i) Fripp or another current band member wants to revive the mellotron (probably won't happen - sigh...); or (ii) Keith Tippett himself joins to play acoustic piano. On the other hand, I'm not adverse to the concept of having a guest keyboard player sit in on a song or two (Tippett?, Wakeman?, anyone Fripp damn well pleases?....) OK, it's back to lurking for me. Cheers, David V PS I have a small, inadequate, KC web page at http://www.skidmore.edu/~dvella/kcdisco.htm for those with time to waste. I have plans to improve it, but who has the time? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 09:17:48 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Ginger Spice link.. sorry it took so long OK, here goes. The reason why the Moody Blues haven't released their new album recently is because the Spice Girls have been using the studio they are booked for. Ginger Spice was in the Spice Girls, (was there while they were recording). King Crimson were originally asked to join Threshold, The Moody Blues own label. Fripp is in King Crimson. As long as The YPG doesn't lie, that works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:40:01 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Just a quick mention By the way, I know It may not concern any of you here, but I think everyone is right in saying that it's pointless doing 21st Century Schizoid Man at the 30th Anniversary concert (Note: Who actually was told there will be a 30th Anniversary concert? The only thing I've ever seen on the matter is the Cirkus compilation). Anyway, my vote for the powerful song/ending of the evening is In The Court Of The Crimson King. 'Nuff said. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:12:59 -0400 (EDT) From: david vella Subject: lyrics Dear Elephant Talkers, The different incarnations of King Crimson are separate enough in aim and presentation so as to defy comparison, so I always frown when someone posts a "which line-up is best" question. A recent post contained the same question in a new form - "which lryicist is best?". This question leaves a similar bad taste in my mouth, but one of the follow-up posts had an interesting comeback - instead of voting for which lyricist is "best", why not vote for the best lyrics by each of the three major KC lyricists? I can live with that! Here are my votes: Peter Sinfield - a tough one!, but I settled on "In the Wake of Poseidon" (The first KC song I ever heard 28 years ago, and still among my very favorite, if not THE favorite, KC tunes) Richard Palmer-James - "The Night Watch" Adrian Belew - "Three of a Perfect Pair" These are probably not the "obvious" choices, but there you are. -D. Vella ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:20:12 -0300 From: Ronald Miklos Vogel Subject: Absent Lovers A new KC album is always a bonus for all enthusiasts. The 81-84 years are now quite well served with videos and live CDs. Quality is as always what we expected from KC: excellent. But, there is still one thing missing in all live releases. The 1971/1972 shows. The ones with Fripp, Collins, Burrel and Wallace. We only have Earthbound, which is a really wierd album if compared to the studio versions. I myself have a rare bootleg (at least in Brasil) containing a 1971 show with all Islands songs (but Preude:Song of the Gulls) and Cirkus / Earthbound / Pictures of a City and 21st Century. Quality is appalling but that is all i could ever buy in my whole life. Why it is still missing? Does Robert Fripp have something very strong against releasing such material? We had Great Deceiver and after that The Night Watch!! (6 CDs of 73/74 formation - plus a countless number of bootlegs). I do not think it is ever enough for a Crimhead. We always want more. Please, fulfill our coutless desires and release such material. Tanks Ronald Miklos Vogel - rvogel at synchro dot com dot br ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:54:12 -0400 (EDT) From: wdckdarin at webtv dot net (Darin Giammusso) Subject: TGD For those still looking for The Great Deciever and/or Frame By Frame box sets in the US, J&R music world advertises them in their latest catalog for 54.99 ea. Call them at 1-800-221-8180 or visit them in New York. I don't know how many they have. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 8:46:53 +0000 From: chriss at glass dot co dot uk Subject: Visconti I posted to ET a while back my dim recollection of an interview with Tony Visconti in International Musician. I posted it because there was a thread developing about Fripp being very happy with Belew's playing on Bowie's tour and said thread was fast becoming one of Gore Vidal's 'agreed-upon facts', and since the interview I recalled was such a contrary view I thought it would make interesting counterpoint. It seemed at the time that it was no more likely to be true or false than what was already posted, but would at least serve to illustrate how difficult it is to agree upon facts even when you're a participant in an event, let alone twenty years on, many many miles away and nothing to do with it. Catching up with the world - I've been away and computerless - I find that Fripp has written at the DGM site that he cannot comment on the remarks attributed by me to Visconti, because it didn't happen to him. Fair enough. This does however leave everyone else with an interesting choice: Fripp was there, and should know, but he also has a personal interest in the case; I have no personal involvement, but I am recalling something, written by someone else who interviewed someone else again and was then sub-edited by yet another, so Heaven knows how much it's been mangled. So, all the post-mortem posters, what are you to make of it all? My own thoughts (worth less than the traditional twopence) are that the interview probably told us more about Visconti than about anyone else, although I have no intention of starting a 'Visconti doesn't like Fripp' thread. All the personality-based debate in these august pages is vulnerable to the same problems of verifiable data, and best left as opinion. This 'incident in a teacup' does serve to illustrate what a tricky thing this web is proving: old remarks lost in some magazine that would have simply faded away can be resurrected and made world-wide by some bumbling bonehead such as myself. How does a responsible adult subject to such scrutiny get to live the life of their choosing? An irresponsible posting of 'I read that Fripp drinks his bathwater' could easily start virulent debate about tap-end versus round-end, warm or cold, and probably one or two cases of food poisoning. Strenuous denials from the accused would only add fuel to the flames, and all the good intentions expressed - including my own - would only serve to muddy the (bath)water. To quote Bastait, an unexpected companion here: The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be skilfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. To quote my grandmother, equally unexpected: Mind how you go. Sensible advice both. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #533 ********************************