Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #529 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 529 Tuesday, 4 August 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Tony Levin in Progression Magazine musicians 71-72 Crimso Satanic references in KC--PUH-LEEZE Great Deceiver, available in Madrid Re: 96KHz, 24 bit Super CDs The Daily Blather Upper Extremities Parts of the Greater Crim A Post Sans Consequence Bootlegs, lyrics, improvs, USA, graphics re: underachieving?? Poll results and problem CDs (big post) Offerings to the moderator DGM vinyl No Need for Keys Dumping the Labels The Best Lyricist, and His Effect on the Greater Crim That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen DGM Club USA II & USA Ol' Stogie, sax, keyboards and (not again!) Christian rock We need referendum! A lot of 'em ! USA II / Schizoid BassMan ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:00:16 -0700 From: Mark Chapman Subject: NEWS: Tony Levin in Progression Magazine Hello All: Mr. Levin is featured in a nice interview/article in the spring/summer issue of 'Progression.' If you are a proghead and are not familiar with this magazine, check it out at . ~ Chaps ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:59:51 EDT From: DChetkin at aol dot com Subject: musicians greetings!! 1st time i have dropped a line to et. having read a number of emailers comments on past and present recordings and performances of k.c. and alumni although it may be ineviteable not to compare modern day prog with that of the 70's, it is difficult to compose quality material when resources are limited depending on your library of taste and schooling. needless to say i haven't seen a more diverse and powerful live act ever, and i have been going to live shows since 1969. it has been 3 years since thrak, so lately i have been listening to b.l.u.e., projekt 2 bozzio, levin & stevens aside from absent lovers, and night watch. can anybody suggest any recent recorded efforts that are challenging & interesting to listen to? the music scene out here in calif. is dying at least in the l.a. basin, and being a drummer i am looking for other musicians who are into creating good music. i am also seeking the availability of michael shrieve cd's wherever they may be. if anybody knows where i can find them let me know. one last thing, the summer concert events are dwindling to a halt out here. i strongly believe pearl jam cast an evil spell on this area, as well as the hurtful truth that it costs too much damn money to play any venues around here. i wish earthworks and/or b.l.u.e would come out to the west coast. however projekt 2 at the house of blues was quite interesting. well that is enough from me. fellow local musicians email me if you get tired of playing corporate rock or top 40 . i'm still seeking!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:20:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Edgar Kausel Subject: 71-72 Crimso I think that '69 & '73 Crimso were the best bands that ever played on earth (were they from outer-space?), but after hearing the bootlegs "Lost Islands" (10-13-71), "Strange Tales" (3-13-72) & the Earthbound album, I must say that Fripp performances in the 71-72 band are incredible, and it reminds me what Sir James Jeans said about the universe: "it exists in the mind of some eternal spirit". I'm waiting for an official live album from that period (and for the outstanding playing of Mr. Collins). PD:I'm glad to hear that USA II will be available soon. I'd love to hear the complete version of Easy Money, cutted mercyless from the original LP. EK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:41:19 -0400 (EDT) From: arcanexotica at earthling dot net Subject: Satanic references in KC--PUH-LEEZE Yes, I'm quite sure that there have been Satanic references in KC songs of the distant past...but I don't think that makes Fripp and his band of merry men hood-wearing, blood-drinking demoniacs! Satan, as lyrical subject matter, is as game as any other topic; writing ABOUT something doesn't make you "for" or "against" ANYTHING. Case in point: "The Great Deceiver", with lines like "cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary", etc., to me seems like a song that expresses some jaundiced skepticism about religious iconography, as well as its mores, as well as a cheeky play on "devil-lore". ("Dixieland playing on the ferry"--a reference to the way religious yahoos throughout the ages have tried to equate popular music with their so-called "Devil"? Like the old legend that bluesmen made pacts with ol' scratch?) I wonder, though, if John's not singing about--MOREOVER--the music industry?! Musicians, selling their souls to the record industry and its foul practices, in order! ! to make a living doing what they do best? (The lyrics are specific enough in places to make one wonder if it's about a real-life entity...one of the guys at EG, p'haps?) Well, it's a thought anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:40:34 +0200 From: Antonio Castro Subject: Great Deceiver, available in Madrid Hi! For all ETers in Madrid or on holidays in Madrid: there are 6 or 7 boxes of "The Great Deceiver" available in the FNAC magazine, at the nice price of 10000 ptas. (about 40 pounds). Best wishes to all! -- Antonio Castro Marti | CSAR Unix - Bull (Espana) S.A. * ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:14:45 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: 96KHz, 24 bit Super CDs In ET 528 Emory wrote: > In the last few months, the big players in this new > DVD-based format agreed to the following: sorry to be a damper, but with audio consumer electronics I've never noticed too much in the way of recent "agreements" to mean terribly much... > some audio-only audiophile DVDs at this bitrate are > already available. The word from even hardened > analog-o-philes is that they sound superior to anything so > far Choose your "audiophiles" carefully! I've heard a lot of opinions from even digital fans who consider the currently available DVD audio replay technology is a *long* way behind current top end CD players, so until such time as there are de-facto standards succeeding in the market and the replay technology has moved past the bleeding edge I think it would be wise to tread very cautiously! Pete. -- Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 04:22:53 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: The Daily Blather In ET#528 Mike Stok transcribed: > Best known for his work with King Crimson, he is drumming > with his bane Earthworks tonight Gee, I thought *Fripp* was his millstone. Also, "Kirkdorffer, Daniel" whispered: > Fripp indicates he "has new strange plans which will not > only upset the players but the agents, promoters and > probably the audience as well." Anyone make out what > these might be? Based on previous public comment, doubtless they involve Mel B. With a pointed stick, ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com opined: > A bootleg, after all, is rarely in a section marked > "bootlegs". That's true -- it's in a store with either the word "Exchange" or an article of psychedelia in the title. Look for the razor-collared mongrel leashed on the front stoop. Later, "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." mused: > I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was the sound > of Muir sploshing in wet cement. It may account for his rapid disappearance after LTIA. (File it under "Hoffa.") And, of course, John Barnas offered: > (John hands Toby an Old Milwaukee) > > [ What's one of those? Something nice I hope! -- Toby ] Only if you're already at the point where you can't read the label. Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 04:39:27 -0400 From: Christian Vaughan Subject: Upper Extremities Just a thought. I remember reading in a previous edition of ET that Bruford and Levin were mentioned on MTV US as having cribbed heavily from 'Kashmir' for 'Cracking the Midnight Glass' - a part I seem to remember Levin playing on upright bass at the September 13th Playback in London. The resemblance there is quite clear, but I wonder if anybody else noticed the vague resemblance between the next section of 'Cracking.." and a section from "A Tower Struck Down" on Steve Hackett's debut album - 1975's "Voyage of the Acolyte". Other thoughts welcome. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 07:58:34 -0400 From: "Tommy Kochel" Subject: Parts of the Greater Crim Michael Garnice wrote: >The musicians of 90s King Crimson have too much talent for >all of them to play all at once throughout a concert. By >occasionally breaking out of full-group mode, live King >Crimson performances are made richer and more varied. And in >this context, full-group mode sounds more powerful than >ever. Here are the "break-outs" from full-group mode >observed in the 90s tour: . . . > >One final thought on "break-outs" is how if you take this to >the extreme you get the ProjeKcts. Now, I like the >ProjeKcts, but for a whole CD or concert, a part is less >than the whole. I do look forward to seeing how all this R&D >contributes to future King Crimson in full-group mode and >their breakouts. I would agree. In addition, I would mention that upon hearing "Red" from the recent "Absent Lovers" release, I can't help but think that Crimson "should" feel freer to do more of both their in concert playing and studio recording as smaller units. While the current 6-person line-up is my favorite (not exactly true - more accurately, every "current" line-up has been my favorite at the time), I feel much more energy and power in the "Red" from "Absent Lovers" than I do in the "Red" from "B'Boom: Official Bootleg". The 6-player band is obviously just as tight as (or even more so than) the 80" quartet, so that's not the secret. Perhaps it has something to do with the idea that "Red" was originally written as more of a 4 (or 3, with guest musicians)-person tune. Whatever the case, I would love to buy a Crimson studio recording and attend a live concert, knowing that I would hear great music but not worrying about having to see all the musicians perform together for absolutely every tune (not that I spend much time actually worrying about these things!). The breakouts, mentioned by Michael above, are good pieces during which some of Crim needn't play or even be on stage. I'm suggesting (not that my suggesting a thing will influence Robert or any part of the Greater Crim - as it should be - I just have to vent) that RF/KC should be given an audiencial go ahead to proceed with their music (as projeckts or even as a "whole Crim") in any configurations/numbers of musicians that happen to be appropriate to the music of the moment. These are some of the best players out there, I hope they keep doing their things for a long time. Tommy Kochel teak Grand Chapman Stick #1325 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 14:22:56 -0500 From: Stephen Drake Subject: A Post Sans Consequence I thought we had been through this before - Un Reve Sans Consequence Speciale is a completely different show than the one on The Night Watch. Different year even. There are similarities of course, but none of the music is the same except in overall structure. Not exactly obselete! >Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:15:10 GMT >From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) >Subject: A Post Sans Consequence > >gary dot l dot weimer at awo dot com wrote... > >> It's titled "Un Reve Sans Consequence Speciale" and was recorded in >> Amsterdam in 1974 The songs listed are: medley - The Mincer/Talking >> Drum/Lark's Tongue in Aspic > >I have it here as well - it is essentially the November 1973 >Concertgebouw gig that was recorded to create parts of >'Starless and Bible Black', only with the 'SABB bits' >removed from it. In other words, if you add SABB and this >record, you get 'The Night Watch'. The opening instrumental >isn't actually 'The Mincer' (as it appeared on SABB) at all >but the improv that was named 'The Fright Watch' on NW. > >It's not a bad record by any standards, but the release of >NW has rendered it just a little obsolete. > >Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) >For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ___________________________________________________________ Stephen Drake dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot Sduck at Bellsouth dot net Cellist, Music Copyist..................................... Homepage.........http://members.aol.com/sddrake/s-drake.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:03:53 +0200 (CETDST) From: Markus Hollaender Subject: Bootlegs, lyrics, improvs, USA, graphics Hi all! Panyarak Poolthup wrote: [...] and Starless(8:49). The concert was recorded somewhere ->in Shizuoka, Japan, in 1977 [...] Hmmmmm... I guess a KC bootleg from 1977 would really be a sensation, even to Robert. They seem to have re-arranged Starless, since it's only 8+ minutes long :-) J A Sontag wrote: ->I would like to propose a survey question: best Crimson ->lyricist - a) Peter Sinfield; b) Robert Palmer-James c) ->Adrian Belew d) none of the above I would vote for Richard Fripp, eh, Robert Pa... well, now I got confused! ...for R. Palmer-James, closely followed by Belew. [...] there are ->pieces like "The Great Deceiver", "The Night Watch", and ->"Doctor Diamond" where poor John Wetton has to tie his mouth ->is a knot trying to force words in where the music doesn't ->want them to go. The reason that this doesn't happen with Belew's lyrics is surely that he sings his lyrics himself, so he can figure out what they will sound like and, if necessary, change them. P-J on the other hand didn't know in what tempo his lyrics would be sung (if I remember right he was in Germany at the time). David MacLennan wrote: ->Here's a suggestion for the DGM Club: how about a disc (or ->discs) of just improvs from the 73-74 KC? A great idea! But why release it through the club? The 73/74 improvs were usually much more "accessible" (IMHO) than the THRaKaTTaK material, so a disc (or two) of this stuff should do quite well in the stores... relatively well, of course (we're still talking about KC here!) But please, new material, not an "Abbreviated Great Deceiver"! Which brings us (or, rather me) to the USA re-issue: I would of course prefer the 2CD set with the complete show (and maybe some other archive material to fill up CD 2). But, if it's going to be a single CD, PLEASE don't edit Asbury Park! Rather leave out or edit 21st Schizoid Man; the version from Asbury Park has already been released on the Schizoid Man ep. On the other hand, if the above mentioned improv CD('s) came true, Fripp could use the AB edit on USA II and the full version on the improv CD... (just daydreaming.) Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au was looking for the website with LTIA graphics: It's at http://www.unpronounceable.com/graphics/raytraces_14.html. See also ET website, links page 1. Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:17:42 -0700 From: Eb Subject: re: underachieving?? >From: Robert and Diane > >On another note The >Smashing Pumpkins have alot of potential..A producer like >Fripp or Brian Eno could do much with the band. Yeah, the Pumpkins really could use some help...they've hardly gotten ANYWHERE, on their own. ;) Random note: On a whim, I bought a cheap copy of Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire the other day, and was surprised to be totally knocked out by it. Anyone care to spew about the virtues of other Schoenberg works, either publicly or privately? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:01:47 +0800 From: "Stephen L Arnold" Subject: Poll results and problem CDs (big post) Howdy ET'ers: I've got some (slim) results on my KC fan OS-of-choice poll. I got so few replies that I'm listing them all instead of just the totals: Harry White: Acorn RISCOS 3.7 Lance F. Larsen: SCO UnixWare 2.1.1 (and most of his KC-buddies run unix) Roger Espel Llima: Linux Daniel Fragiadakis: Linux Tom Ace: Linux (debian) (the following guy didn't respond, but I found him anyway ;-) David Charles Todd: Linux And me: Linux (RedHat) And this guy's KC-related web material runs on it: > http://nexus.sinet.it/servizi_esterni/alice/Alice.HTM (the WEB > server runs under Linux, so pay attention to capital letters). > Thanks to you all, > Stefano pezzuto at le dot infn dot it So it looks like Linux wins by a landslide! (boy, the jams on FZ's Lather set really rip - of course) A while back (in Dec97) someone complained about enhanced CDs: >>I've *got* a PC with a CD-ROM drive. I've *got* Windows 95. And >>I've *got* a European copy of "The Night Watch" thanks to a friend >>in Wales. And I'm *relatively* bright, to boot. So why can't I >>figure out how to access these multimedia files on my computer? >>The only thing that happens when I stick disc 2 in the CD-ROM drive >>is it plays the music. And when I check in Windows Explorer, all >>it shows me is the music tracks. Help! Private responses welcome >>if Toby prefers it that way. To which someone else responded: > Unfortunately the enhanced CD "standard" isn't quite - the best > approach still doesn't offer 100% compatibility, but you may find > success with a real mode (DOS) CD-ROM driver, or if you're already > using one try removing it and using the built-in 95 drivers. AFAIK, it's not a driver (real mode vs. protected mode) issue. It has to do with how the drive itself reads the disc vs. how the multimedia content is laid down (basically, there's no standard yet). Some enhanced CDs put the data in track 1, while others put it in a "hidden" track 0 (which standard audio CD players can't see). It's supposed to keep audio CD players from trying to play the data track (I suppose it could possibly damage some equipment, but I've never seen it happen). Due to their hardware design, some CD-ROM drives can play track 0 data and some can't (it depends on the drive manufacturer and the mechanism they use). For example, I have an old NEC 4 speed/4 disk changer (that I use mostly for audio CDs - all 4 Epitaph discs fit at once 8-) and a 24x Creative Labs (Matsushita mechanism) drive and they both read the NightWatch CDs just fine. Unfortunately, Mike Oldfield's _Songs of Distant Earth_ won't play (it's Mac only). You can thank RF for using the cross-platform QuickTime format (thanks RF :-). My suggestion would be to buy a second CD-ROM drive (you can get a 4 disc 8x drive for about $50-60 at www.compugeeks.com). And later he said: > And yes, I know PC's/Windows suck, but so do Macs, Unix > (esp Suns), Next, Linux, even PDP-11, Sinclair Spectrums, > bozos with flash guns and petulent guitar gods (well, > sometimes). Fist off, Linux does NOT suck :-) (and you left out OS/2, which doesn't suck either - it was OS/2's lack of support for certain multi-media hardware that made me check out Linux, and I've never looked back, though I still use windoze too). IBM really had the better product, and beat windoze to the market to boot, but they never gave it the support and marketing it deserved. And PC's don't suck either (it's the cheesy and lame imitation of an operating system that most people use that makes them suck). If it wasn't for PCs, the Internet would never be what it is today, and you wouldn't have this great newsletter to read, ET-Web, etc. I agree though, commercial unix pretty much sucks for home use (compared to Linux), and DOS/windoze has sucked for years. The problem lies in the fact that PCs are not consumer products in the traditional sense (although millions of consumers own them now). Given the multitude of vendors ranging from big-name to generic taiwanese, it's a wonder anything works at all. Computers are mixtures of complex electro-mechanical devices, and it takes a certain amount of expertise and experience to keep them working properly (at least for now; we may be speaking into the mouse like Scotty in a few years, but not quite yet). Is it any wonder that people are confused about PCs when many VCRs across the globe are all flashing "12:00" at this very minute? No, you shouldn't have to be a systems engineer to keep your PC going, just as you shouldn't have to be a mechanic just to operate and maintain a car. But a car is just hardware (and a little firmware that you can't get to), whereas a PC is a hell of a lot more like a spaceship than it is like a car. Much of the PC-ignorance problem is a direct result of M$ dumbing down their OS and trying to hide all the details, etc, from the end user. Win95 is better than win31 in many ways, but in other ways win31 was actually more stable and easier to maintain. I'd characterize the current windoze registry as a disaster-waiting-to-happen. Once I got a taste of the stability, power, flexibility, and open source model of the GNU/Linux platform, I could never go back to the M$ way. The other major dis-service done to the computing public is the inherent instability of windoze and most M$ software. Most people who have PCs at home, or sit in front of one at work all day, haven't a clue about what's going on beneath the GUI (and are consequently at the mercy of the computer "gods" instead of being in control). They think it's normal for their machine to crash, lose their work, and generally behave erratically. That is NOT how computers are supposed to work. That's how M$ products work. A real OS, like linux, is strong and stable. Can anyone out there picture a windoze machine running perfectly for 3 years without a hiccup (not including power and hardware failures, etc)? Linux can (and does). 'Nuff said None of the above is a troll; feel free to flame me personally ;-) I'll also be happy to answer hardware/linux/windoze questions (privately of course). Happy ET-ing (and linux-ing) [ FYI, ET newsletter production has just moved over to a Linux (Red Hat) machine. However, there will be NO FURTHER DISCUSSION OF OPERATING SYSTEMS on ET! Private email only, please. -- Toby ] Steve ************************************************************* Steve Arnold sarnold at earthling dot net "A mime is a terrible thing to waste..." Mel Brooks ------------------------------ Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:14:12 -0400 From: Andrew Krein Subject: Offerings to the moderator Hi team, (Andy steps out of lurking mode and offers Toby a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, not to offend fans of America's industrial lagers, but doesn't our moderator deserve something a little better?) On to a more topical topic. If given a choice, I'd like to see USA II as a 2 disc set with both the original tracks and the Eddie Jobson overdubs. The comparison may be interesting. I also vote for a proper release of the legendary Central Park concert. I've had an "unoffical" cd of this show and the performance is amazing. My copy is from a very good quality audience recording (the requests for Cat Food are amusing) but I'm sure that Robert has better, more complete tapes. The complete show had to be longer than the 74 minutes that my cd has on it. I'll slip back into lurking mode now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 14:42:03 -0400 From: John Subject: DGM vinyl "Do you know what virgin vinyl cost in '84 versus today's dollars? I am especially fond of the memory of reading Mr. Fripp's comment that he expected those with an ear to prefer vinyl yet acknowledged virgin vinyl vs standard melt of vinyl recyclables to be the requirement of an audiophile and acknowledged that as a commodidity virgin vinyl is unavailable." As a crimhead with immense vinyllust and a choice sound system, i was very psyched to see Fripp even acknowledge that there are still collectors out there who prefer vinyl editions. Whether or not "virgin vinyl" is unavailable, i really don't know. However, I recently purchased the new Page/Plant album,(a double lp!) and the sonic quality is fantastic! It is a Direct Metal Master, meaning it was pressed from the original master disc. Compared to the CD (which sounds subtly flatter and has a muddier mix), the vinyl breathes with life and clarity. Cymbals, drums and amp buzzes are present in the sound spectrum like they were right in front of me in the living room (imagining what Thark might sound like). come on Fripp, if page/plant can do it, i -know- you can ;). seriously though, i know that p/p have the big $$ of atlantic records to do this, but since we ETer's seem to have the ear of Mr. Fripp these days, i though i'd give it a shot and take the opportunity to promote my own agenda of seeing vinyl releases from DGM. maybe something the Collector's Collectors Club. it seems to be an audiophile crime that the KC lp catalog stops in '84 and sublime titles like Vroom and B'Boom are only available as 16-bit digital. A freshie of USAII (as a triple album, *a Direct Metal Master mix of Asbury Park, come on..it wouldn't get -any- hotter* :-) ) would make those of us who -do- care about the extra sonicness sooooo happy (and for those who won't be able to afford a DVD player in till about 2010). Peace, John mixing the cool Wax ps. disbelievers- go out and fine a clean lp of "Let the Power Fall". No CD edition on the market will match the sonic warmness of this beauty. Toby, don't mean to start up that ol' tired digital v. analog debate again, just trying to throw out some ideas (ahh hm- propaganda ;) ) for DGM to consider. any disputers can e-mail me privately, but i'm not promising any responses. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:02:08 -0500 From: "Ced" Subject: No Need for Keys Greetings All: A minor ado has been made re: the addition of keyboards to our favorite band. I look upon all the comments made, and I have but one question: Why? What will keyboards add to this band that isn't already there? Consider what we have, as of this moment: Robert Fripp: Superb guitarist, soundscapes, guitar synth Adrian Belew: Ditto guitar, guitar synth, vocals, and occasional percussion Tony Levin: Bass with pick/funk fingers/traditional fingers, upright bass, and stick Trey Gunn: Warr guitar (strum it, pick it, or tap it) Bill Bruford: Acoustic, electronic, and chordal drums, percussion Pat Mastellotto: Drums, tuned and untuned percussion With all that sound, why in bloody hell do we need to add keyboards? Nothing against keys, but AB and RF already handle those duties with their guitars just fine, thanks. Not to mention BB's drums. People already complain that they can barely hear TG in the mix at times, so why add to the confusion? What do you say we just let the band be, and allow them to continue to explore the dimensions of music with their current instrumentation? Of course, that's just my opinion. And I could be wrong. Until next time ... Peace, Ced ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:20:08 -0500 From: "Ced" Subject: Dumping the Labels Hello All, I have a question for the general populace -- why are we so hung up on labels? I've been reading with bemusement the ongoing debate over what is prog and what is not, which women belong in prog and which don't, what is Christian rock and what is not (and is it good music), and who knows what else. This is just a small symptom of the greater disease. Video may have killed the radio star, but labeling and demographics have killed music. Here's a novel concept -- why not just let music be music, and let the cards fall where they will? Labels have killed many a great band, or at least put them at the back of the bus, when they could have been driving the damn thing. Starting with our heroes in KC. If not for the "prog" label, could "Dinosaur" have been a bigger hit? I think it could have. But since people had to cram them into a certain category and demographic, a great song and concept got lost on the general populace. The same could be said for the late, great Living Colour (forever known as a "black rock band"), or Miles Davis. (I don't know that I'd call his contributions to music from 1969 until his death "jazz." It was just great music.) The instant you put a label on something, you give people a chance to discriminate before they've heard the first note. Jars of Clay is one of my favorite bands from this decade. But if I had known that they were considered Christian Rock before I had bought the CD, I probably never would have touched them. All I knew is that Adrian Belew produced a couple of tracks, and that was enough for me to at least give them a listen. Lo and behold, I love a Christian rock band. Because it's great music. Can we really put a label on what the Dave Matthews Band does? Not with any degree of certainty. It's just great music played by talented musicians. Can we put any kind of label on Fripp's soundscaping? I don't think so. All I know is that I like the sound of it. I think it's high time that record stores removed the labels from their bins, and just started putting music in alphabetical order by artist. A pain to do? Absolutely. But it would give people who normally wouldn't pay attention to a certain artist a chance to stumble over them. And as we all know, some of the best music in the world is found that way. I welcome replies, either here or privately, depending on Toby's discretion. Sorry to rant on for so long. Keep the faith, people. And keep taking musical risks. Until next time ... Peace, Ced ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:35:40 -0500 From: "Ced" Subject: The Best Lyricist, and His Effect on the Greater Crim Greetings All, First and foremost, I wish to apologize to Toby for the can of worms I'm about to open. If I'm banned from ETing for a while, I won't be surprised. :) I've been watching with interest the beginnings of the spirited debate over who the best lyricist within King Crimson is (or was). IMHO, there really is no competition here. This band is and has been at its most interesting and consistent when Adrian Belew has handled the duties as chief lyricist. One need look no further than "Dinosaur" -- a very clever tune if you pay attention -- for evidence of this. But if you need more, try "People," "Neurotica," "Dig Me," "Neal and Jack and Me," "Three of a Perfect Pair," or the namesake of this very site. Adrian Belew is a clever, talented and witty man. Having said that, I think I also have a theory as to why we have gone so long between Crimson records. I think our friend Mr. Fripp is starting to realize that The Greater Crim is slipping out of his control. And he wants it back. Now this is not (let me say that again -- THIS IS NOT) a "Deify Adrian, Villify Robert" thread. They are both incredibly talented musicians, and within KC, they cannot (and should not) exist without the other. All I'm saying is that while Robert Fripp plays guitar better than probably 95 percent of the people on this plantet -- if not more -- his abilities as a composer are, to put it diplomatically, limited. All those of you preparing to burn me in effigy consider the following: Listen to Fripp's compositions. Really listen to them. I'll bet you find a pattern. An incredibly complex lick, designed for cross picking between one or two guitars, that goes on for a bit, and then moves up a third, fourth, or fifth before repeating itself. This is followed by a dark and droning bridge, a repeat of the theme, and the finale. Just go back and listen to them. I'm not saying these are bad tunes. They're not. I think they're great. But there is definitely a pattern there. Need more evidence? Consider this -- the vast majority of Fripp's work of late has been improvised. Written in the moment. While there is nothing wrong with this (after all, it takes an immense talent to pull it off night after night), it also says something else. Namely, "I have not written anything that I deem worth memorizing." Not enough? How about this: I can't help but notice that the ProjeKcts have included no vocalizing. Or am I wrong there? I don't think I am. A sure fire way to maintain control of the band is to limit the talents of one of the members. Take the hi-hat away from the drummer, take the vocal from the singer. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. But sometimes one's ego forces him to lose a little perspective. And finally, this: How many of us have gone to KC shows, and had to inform novices that Adrian is not Robert? That the founder of the band is in fact the guy sitting down between the two drummers. The frontman didn't join until '81. I've said all that to say this -- perhaps Robert (in his role of "Quality Control") saw the band slipping towards a more song-oriented format than he desired. It has been said that Fripp does some of his best guitar work on other people's records. Simply because he need only play. Well, he founded King Crimson. Who wants to be second banana in his own band? Bill bruford said that KC had all but finished a follow-up to "Thrak." But it was shelved, as it sounded like "more of the same." I have to wonder. Because the band was sounding like they were really getting used to each other. Familiarity may breed a little repetition, but I'm starting to think that Mr. Fripp should offer up that abandoned record as part of the DGM club. Then I could make my own judgement. But here's another way of looking at it. If Adrian wants to come up with most of the vocal ideas and "pop" compostions, let him. The surveys in this very site have indicated that most of us like the structured tunes. The fact that those seem to fall more in AB's lap should be irrelevant. Be happy you found a voice you can bounce off of. Come up with an improv or two, and put it in the middle of the record, just to keep the fans off balance. Let the debate begin. Toby, I apologize for the length. But as John Coltrane once said about a long solo, "It took me that long to get it all in." Hoping to hear from you out there ... Peace, Ced ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:16:28 -0700 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen Diane at DGM wrote (on the DGM web site): >In a meeting with Robert and David last Friday we discussed many >issues, including the website. I was reminded of a pamphlet I read >years ago written by a French economist, Frederic Bastiat, entitled, >THAT WHICH IS SEEN, AND THAT WHICH IS NOT SEEN. For those who are interested, this essay can be found on the web in a couple of places: http://www.freedomsnest.com/fn/bastiat.html gopher://gopher.vt.edu:10010/02/45/1 After comparing the two sites, I feel I should mention that the Freedom's Nest site contains numerous typos, which makes several passages confusing. The gopher site, however, appears to be correct. Those who enjoy Fripp's writing will probably enjoy this as well. It's one of the most enjoyable introductions to economic theory I've ever come across. Eric D. Dixon http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6072/ "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." -- Robert Heinlein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:25:12 -0700 From: christie byun Subject: DGM Club Hi Everyone, I just read about the DGM Club at the website, and I want to say thank you to Robert for making so much possible for all of us here at ET. If you're interested in suggestions for releases--how about the Berkeley Greek Theater, July 26, 1996? I'm a terrible person, but I have to admit to owning a bootleg of that concert, and on the rare occasions a trade comes up, people always want that show. Someone sent me a xerox of some photos of Robert and Toyah in a British magazine, and Beaton is in one of them. He's a very huge, very cute white rabbit. Christie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:37:25 EDT From: Pierron3 at aol dot com Subject: USA II & USA I know someone already mentioned this, but I'd like to see USA II released at least as a 2-cd set with the option to buy the 3rd cd: the original USA...somewhat like Epitaph. I think that would be the way to do it and still be able to please almost everyone. Just my 2 cents. --Mike Appleton ETers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:12:18 -0600 (MDT) From: Jim Bauer Subject: Ol' Stogie, sax, keyboards and (not again!) Christian rock Dear Mr. Elephant: Toby--you professed not to know what what "Old Milwaukee" is. It's a variety of cheap beer which is available here in Montana and elsewhere. Because of a bitter after-taste, I generally refer to it as "Ol' Stogie, the beer that tastes like a cheap cigar." (I hope the cheap-beer thread never gets as bad as the political one or the current Christian rock one, which I am nonetheless commenting on here.) As far as keyboards in Crimson goes, someone wrote me suggesting Patrick Moraz. A good choice, but part of the fun of listening to YESSHOWS for me is listening to Moraz covering Wakeman's solos and vice-versa. If we want to keep everything double, how about both of them? And here's a little piece of trivia probably not known to too many Moraz fans: he got his start in a group called Refugee (not the current band of the same name), the other two members of which were Lee Jackson and Brian Davison of the Nice, Emerson's old band. Apparently, Jackson quit music in disgust after losing his keyboard player to more successful acts twice. About the idea of including a sax in the current line-up, the best jazz saxophonist I've heard is Pharaoh Sanders, who is sort of the antithesis of Christian rock: his band was produced by the Black Muslims, at least so I was informed by Muhammad Ali. (For more on this matter, consolt REALITY on my home-page, http://wwww.hi-line.net/~jbauer. He's been like a brother to me and he's like the only DJ you can hear after 3:00.) As far as getting a sax goes, why not a whole horn section? LIZARD had a couple guys, trumpet, French horn and cornet, I believe, and the guy on cornet, Mark Charig, played on RED. And last and probably least, Christian rock. I've got nothing against it, save for the fact that, since the only reason people listen is for the lyrics, the music is usually of garage-band caliber. And you must remember that Stryper and Amy Grant went on to commercial success. Nicotine-free Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:01:35 +0800 From: "Stephen L Arnold" Subject: We need referendum! Howdy Folks: I agree with someone (I don't know with who) that Mireille Bauer would make a great female addition to crim-folk. So would some of the other ex-Gong/Steve Hillage players: Lindsay Cooper Miquette Giraudy Of course, just because prog bands/fans are mostly male, there's absolutely no reason why females can't do it (or like it) just as well. Actually, in high school, most of my hard-rock (male) musician buddies didn't go for (the old PG version) Genesis much, but the girls did. I think when Phil took over is when the (mostly brain-dead) males started liking Geneisis... AFAIK, there aren't many female musicians, other than the above, who have spent any time in a (more-or-less) instrumental prog setting. The female rock musicians seem to gravitate towards vocals... Speaking of vocals, Edie Brickell comes to mind; her band sounded pretty progressive as I recall. Vote #2: If I had to pick a prog keybordist for KC, it would have to be Chick Corea (if he could stand the volume level). IMHO, he's the most inovative and all-around best musician of all the keybordists I've seen (including Wakeman). Thar's my $.02 worth. Flame away... ************************************************************* Steve Arnold sarnold at earthling dot net Conserving bandwidth (and belly-button lint...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 00:41:20 -0400 From: Denis Robitaille Subject: A lot of 'em ! Hi everyone ! First of all I'd like to thank all of you who answered the 'percussion question' . Now is my turn to answer questions ! 1-The Texas bootleg was taped in Arlington but I don't know the exact date . 2-If the original USA was released with overdubs , it's probably because David's parts did not come out ok . So I guess we will have to keep listening to Eddie's violin and piano. 3-There are so many live versions of Schizoid Man available that I don't think we need another one on USA 2 . Let's go for Asbury Park ! 4-Fripp to involved with money ? Come on ! Try to make a living with music like that ! ( I know , I tried for 10 years ... ) 5-As for a keyboardist in KC , I believe that RF is dedicated to explore the possibilities of the electric guitar ( or bass or any stringed instrument ) more than than standard synths . The way he and Adrian and Tony and Trey handle their necks ( and related synths ), who needs a keyboardist ? DR ------------------------------ From: Keith Burns Subject: USA II / Schizoid BassMan Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:16:30 +0100 I'd like to throw my weight in with the other ETers who've suggested a single CD USA with the whole Asbury Park improv, at the expense of Schizoid Man. To be honest, I never really liked the 73/74 band's version of this. Sure, Fripp's solo could often strip paint, but the rest of it never worked for me. Two things contribute to this - 1) The violin just sounds too tame playing the main riff. 2) Having the bass doubling the main (sax) riff note-for-note just sounds wrong to me. I noticed on Epitaph that Lake also does this, although he seems to make it work better. I've long suspected that the original album version has two bass parts - one playing the riff (quite high) and another holding down the C root until the change down to F. It certainly sounds more "grounded" than any live version that I've heard. Any thoughts? Keith. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #529 ********************************