Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #528 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 528 Sunday, 2 August 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Bill Bruford in The Guardian (UK newspaper) NEWS: *** New ESC Website *** NEWS: Mysterious plans ProjeKct 80s new cd from king crimson in the near future? Dinosaur return of Mushroom Live "break-outs" The KC Bug re: bills drums epitaph import Adrian Belew's early work Responses to ET 527 plug cunningly disguised as a question..... Fripp, Bootlegging and $$$ RF's DGM letters no-man, Flowermouth Absent Lovers packaging Simmons 5/7/SDX Lyrics, Beaton, Fergus Hall video of "the nightwatch" USA 2 1CD or 2CD? Crim Lyric Poll, and other spiel A Message from Peter Sinfield DGM collectors club Re: KC Keyboard Players Re: Easy Money intro USA survey Tool/Fripp connection Re: Camzone not a troll. USA and other ideas Fripp and Spice and Pumpkin's Christian Prog!? USAII, and doofuses Fripp the shameless marketing weasel, Part Umpteen... 96KHz, 24 bit Super CDs discipline album cover nominations for the Crimson keyboardist Bootlegs, lyrics, improvs, USA, graphics USA Q&AB Re: Bills Drums What Words cd problems,club,Beaton Need Help Identifying KC Show Pt. 2 RE: USA II Track Selections. Lyrics and Satan and the Club Re: 1 disc or 2 discs poll Hey, Wait, I got a new complaint! Re: The Roches' - Keep On Doing Christian music vs Heathen music - a plea for political incorrectness! A Percussion Discussion I need vinyl Earthbound, scratched boss's copy! USA: Easy Money edit ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:10:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Stok Subject: NEWS: Bill Bruford in The Guardian (UK newspaper) Passed on to me by my wife: The Guardian - Wednesday July 29 1998 Happy Days ========== A parent's guide to fun with the kids Bill Bruford ------------ Jazz drummer Bill Bruford lives near Guildford, Surrey, with his wife Carolyn and children Alex, 20, Holly, 18, and Jack, 11. Best known for his work with King Crimson, he is drumming with his bane Earthworks tonight as part of the Southend Jazz Festival, at the Cliffs Pavilion, 8.30pm. Best day out: There are two things we all agree on: Boxing Day, when, with grandparents, we will all go for a frozen walk either in Petworth Park or Bignor Hill on the South Downs; and surfing at Chapel Porth near St Agnes in north Cornwall - a regular family holiday for years. Best day in: During the winter we have a huge open fire and sit in front of it watching a movie and eating popcorn. Of course there's always the problem of *what* movie. It's usually Star Wars or Indiana Joneses. Worst day out: Bank Holidays were a disaster. One particularly bad August 31 was 1991, when on top of everything else our tortoise, a trusted, elderly family member, ran away. We looked for about three months but suspect he came to no good in the Surrey countryside. Favourite book: The Mr Men series, by Roger Hargreaves, and The Tiger Who Came To Tea by Judith Carr. Favourite food: Italian. If there was no Italy, we would have starved. Most successful toy: Beyond doubt, it is Big Loader from Tomy, adored by boys and girls. Most awkward question: As a musician and father, there are two - "When are you coming home?", and "When are you going away?". Best advice for other parents: From Carrie Fisher - "It's not what you give them, it's how they take it." ----------------------- Interview: Annie Taylor -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | PGP fingerprint FE 56 4D 7D 42 1A 4A 9C http://www.tiac.net/users/stok/ | 65 F3 3F 1D 27 22 B7 41 stok at colltech dot com | Collective Technologies (work) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:57:48 +0100 From: "Udo J. Dzierzanowski" Subject: NEWS: *** New ESC Website *** Dear ET Readers Team, Check out the new ESC Web: http://www.dscplne.demon.co.uk Feedback is most welcome, please fill in the form online. Also, new album in Quartett format coming up, samples of rough mixes online and Touring plans for 1999. We'll keep you posted. Best Wishes to all ETers and DGM Clubbers from the Europa String Choir! Udo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:53:09 -0700 From: "Kirkdorffer, Daniel" Subject: NEWS: Mysterious plans If you haven't done so yet, you should read Fripp's recent "diary" updates at the DGM website (suggestion: read them bottom to top - the most recent info is at the top). It would seem that this contains his official DGM Club announcement. Also included are a few references to ongoing discussions with Bill Bruford concerning the future of Crimson. Fripp indicates he "has new strange plans which will not only upset the players but the agents, promoters and probably the audience as well." Anyone make out what these might be? Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:14:45 -0400 From: "Michael Garnice" Subject: ProjeKct 80s In retrospect, the 80s incarnation of Crim can be seen as a forward-looking ProjeKct for the good of the 90s Crim. "ProjeKct 0"? "ProjeKct 80s"? -MiKchael G ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:10:49 +0000 From: Sockboy Subject: new cd from king crimson in the near future? hard to decipher if there is new king crimson cd in the works a cd of new material not rereleased live stuff thanks mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:11:34 -0400 From: "Michael Garnice" Subject: Dinosaur I think the virtues of the song Dinosaur deserve (at the least) a separate post. It contains some of Adrian's best-ever lyrics, interpretable as either a personal memoir or as giving voice the entity called King Crimson. (With all the new archival releases, we'll all "digging bones" more than ever.) Adrian also delivers a very powerful vocal performance on this track. The song is rich with strong chorus, verse, intro, outro and instrumental break. The instrumentation is exciting throughout, putting both percussionists to good use in a "song". Tony's bass work is a joy and Fripp contributes satisfying peels of sparse notes and chops. The Adrian-Tony instrumental break in the middle is a stunner, expanding KC's vocabulary and is a great set-up for Fripp's solo. This solo, over the lumbering bass and percussion evokes the song's title -- big, powerful, awesome, awkward and doomed. The song worked well live. The duet of Adrian's midi-guitar and Tony's bowed stand-up bass was so impressive that applause would fill the musical silence that leads to Fripp's solo. Having seen Dinosaur performed 8 times, I was surprised that Fripp's solo (which played-up the off-the-beat aspect of the studio version) didn't vary from night to night. Except for the Asbury Park show at the very end of the 96 tour, where Fripp riffed wildly and the solo bared little resemblance to the studio version. Adrian's solo acoustic version of Dinosaur on Belew Prints is a winner and is recommended. The edited version on the Dinosaur CD single is more enjoyable than I would have guessed. However, too much was sacrificed in the very edited version performed on the Conan O'Brien show for it to be recommended. Finally, I'm looking forward to live versions of Dinosaur being released on future KC and P2 CDs. -MiKchael G ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:35:15 -0800 From: PT Subject: return of Mushroom Bay Area Readers take note: Mushroom"s first appearance since their show with Kevin Ayers in May: Mushroom returns to the stage next Wednesday August 5th at the Cafe Du Nord on Market street in San Francisco. For anyone who missed them with Kevin Ayers, I would describe their sound as a blend of mid-70's Crimson, Soft Machine, and Can. For those who saw the Ayers show you know what to expect..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:54:28 -0400 From: "Michael Garnice" Subject: Live "break-outs" The musicians of 90s King Crimson have too much talent for all of them to play all at once throughout a concert. By occasionally breaking out of full-group mode, live King Crimson performances are made richer and more varied. And in this context, full-group mode sounds more powerful than ever. Here are the "break-outs" from full-group mode observed in the 90s tour: "Elevens" (a.k.a. "THRUM") - A percussion duet that effectively announced the opening of the performance. (This function was actually beneficial at some HORDE performances.) This allowed the two drummers to be showcased. It also provided a great intro to Thela. Tony and Adrian's "orchestral" duet during Dinosaur allowed Adrian to show his mastery of the latest in Midi guitar and allowed Tony to bow stand-up bass. The result was a beautiful passage that was unlike anything that King Crimson had done before. Soundscape --> B'Boom --> THRAK - A solo performance of a soundscape within a King Crimson show is a good thing. A drum duet over the soundscape makes for an unusual trio. Then the soundscape drops out, allowing the listener to concentrate on a most asymmetrical drum duet, as Bruford and Mastelotto play inside each other's beats. All this provides a fantastic set-up for the monstrous full-group opening of THRAK. Prisim (a.k.a. B'Bish) - This was a percussion duet with Adrian adding some additional percussion via midi guitar until after the 1995 tour of Japan, when it became a true percussion trio. Many people I spoke to who saw this performed counted it as a concert highlight. Again, a showcase for the enormous percussion talent within King Crimson and an expansion of King Crimson's musical repertoire. At one show I saw at the Long Acre theater in NYC, Adrian preceded Elevens with a solo acoustic performance of "Free as a Bird", to great effect. This was proceeded by opening act, The California Guitar Trio, which made for a night of layers of musical excellence. One final thought on "break-outs" is how if you take this to the extreme you get the ProjeKcts. Now, I like the ProjeKcts, but for a whole CD or concert, a part is less than the whole. I do look forward to seeing how all this R&D contributes to future King Crimson in full-group mode and their breakouts. MiIKchael G ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:26:39 -0400 From: "Craig J. Clark" Subject: The KC Bug Hello. Long-time listener, first-time caller. I'd have to say I first caught the KC bug back in my freshman year of college (1991, to be precise), when I first heard "Elephant Talk" on someone's car stereo system. I loved the music and the lyrics were great -- but that was the only Crimsong on the tape. Flash forward to New Year's Eve about a year or so later. I was at a party and -- as was my custom -- I spent a fair bit of time investigating my host's CD collection. 'Twas there that I found THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR. I campaigned to have it put on and sat in rapture in front of the CD player, soaking up as much of it as possible. After four or five songs, though, the other people at the party wanted to put something else on. It was too late, though. I was hooked. Now I own just about everything King Crimson, Robert Fripp and Adrian Belew have ever put out. Needless to say, the 80s Crim is probably my favorite line-up, but the double trio has also grown on me. (I saw their final concert together -- two years ago on August 26 -- and I still consider it one of the best live shows I've ever seen.) Finally, if I may be allowed to weigh in on the USA II survey, I say release it as a 2-CD set. Speaking as one who has enjoyed my cassette copy of the original USA for some time, I also like Eddie Jobson's overdubs. As another ETer suggested, perhaps this can be included as bonus material on the second (mostly empty) disc. -- ================================================================== | Craig J. Quack, er...Clark | "Don't interrupt me as I | | cjclark at earthlink dot net | struggle to complete this | | http://home.earthlink.net/~cjclark | thought." --John & John | ================================================================== | "Give me ten men like Clouseau and I could destroy the world." | | --Charles Dreyfus | ================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:09:26 -0700 From: rspeak <"rspeak"@erols.com> Subject: re: bills drums In ET 527 Frank asks how touch sensitive B.B. simmons were? Yes they did get louder when he hit them louder, but even better than that the drums could be programmed to introduce a completely different sound on top of the first sound. And if I'm not mistaken different parts of the pad could be programmed differently. Bill demonstrated this on a series called "ROCK SCHOOL" which aired on PBS during the late 80's.I think he played the opening cut from his first Earthworks album. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:00:18 EDT From: Starless19 at aol dot com Subject: epitaph import hey all... i was in tower records and noticed that there is a copy of the epitaph box set in the import section. it is 6 dollars more, and has an import sticker on the wrapping, but everything looks exactly the same...i havent heard the music on epitaph, but i was just wondering if there is any difference between the original and the import (imported from the UK, i assume, since i am in the US)...if anyone knows anything, i would love to find out... thanks a lot! -andrew, 20, ann arbor, MI ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:26:07 -0500 From: "Rob Murphree" Subject: Adrian Belew's early work E.T-tians! I just wanted to take a quick moment to ask a favor of all my fellow-ETers. I currently have a Petition for Island Records on the Adrian Belew WWW Site to request they release Adrian's Lone Rhino and Twang Bar King on CD. If you would please drop by the Belew site and sign it, I would be greatly appreciative. I'm fully aware that the masters may be lost but hopefully we can show them there is a following and they should work towards finding them. Thus far, there have been nearly 200 signatures... let's try to boost it = up to at least 5 or 6 hundred! Thank you in advance! Rob Murphree Your Complete Guide to the Twang Bar Rhino King!!! Rob Murphree's Adrian Belew WWW Site http://www.murple.com/adrianbelew=20 GO TO DEPARTMENTS - THEN LOOK FOR "SIGN THE PETITION." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:06:15 -0700 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: Responses to ET 527 Hi Crimpersons, Just a few random responses to ET 527: J. A. Sontag asked about lyricists, so I am going to weigh in in favor of R. Palmer-James. I am just a freak for the lyrics on SABB. And incidentally, I love the Nightwatch. I have thought for years that the music reflects the mood of the poetry perfectly. About Fergus Hall: A few months ago I got wondering about him and looked on the net and could only find copies of his Tarot Deck for sale. A couple of sites had examples of the artwork, which seems to be really nice. I am not into the Tarot, but a friend told me his deck is well respected. As to the anagram "a bald wiener" for "Adrian Belew": Wow! And I thought I had too much free time. :-) In response to Andy B.'s question about Beaton: Beaton is a vertically challenged vegetarian that the Fripp family has taken in out of the goodness of their own hearts. Yes, he's a rabbit. Finally, before the thread is cut after ET 528 I just have to get in my $.02 worth: Not all Christian music sucks, just Christian rock. Kudos to Camzone for starting this thread and allowing us all to clarify our feelings. Peace, Kathryn Ottersten "They come better looking, But they don't come mannered." PS to all the vinyl owners: In the last month I have finally bought a CD of Lizard to supplement my overly played record. I recommend listening to this CD at high volume through headphones. There is stuff on here that was long ago worn off my album. What a knock-out. Now I am gonna have to find the money to make the same effort with the rest of the 69-74 albums. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:27:15 +0100 From: kate dot d at virgin dot net Subject: plug cunningly disguised as a question..... g'day again (sorry Toby..2 posts in an issue :-/ ) last year i visited Laurie Andersons website, and now i want to put a link to it on our site (updated now with "ashley's tape trading post"...ahem...). The problem is i can't find her site...plenty of sites dedicated to her out there but no luck finding Ms Anderson's. Could someone please point me in her direction? Laurie Anderson - Adrian Belew - KC .... just to keep it on topic ;-? thanks, ashley ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:19:15 -0400 From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Subject: Fripp, Bootlegging and $$$ I've been meaning to write this post for a while. A few different things have been said about Fripp and the desire to make money, particularly with regard to the release of live concert material. Although Fripp in older liner notes seemed to have regarded the live concert as an almost sacred event, which should not be taped or intruded upon in any way, he seems to have softened (or at least modified) this stance somewhat. Take a paragraph from his wonderfully rambling Absent Lovers liner notes: "Secondly, if the continuing regard by members of a listening audience of a particular performance, or performers, is worthy of attention -- and how could it not be? -- then the curious may be willing to heed the interests of the community. Absent Lovers continues to be available as a bootleg thirteen years after the radio broadcast." Fripp here seems to be showing a kind of humility he lacked say 15 years ago. Here he acknowledges not the right by anyone to bootleg (or profit by it), but at least that the desire on the part of earnest listeners to hear the output of great artists is something more than a mere intrusion, particularly when that desire far outlives the lifespan of flash-in-the-pan type popularity. And look, the buyers of bootlegs have often not really thought about the consequences (if any) to the artist or to artistic society as a whole, and how can they be? A bootleg, after all, is rarely in a section marked "bootlegs". I also seem to remember a published interview of John McGlauchlin (sp?) by Fripp wherein the taping issue was discussed. I think if Fripp could change things, he would have had the tapes rolling at the Savoy in 1981 (or 1982, whenever that was). But aside from that, I think a look at Fripp's liner notes for "Intergalactic Boogie Express" may indicate where some of the economic attitude may have come from. I think that at some point Fripp realized that surviving as a musician meant much more than simply "keep on playing and everything will work out". The world is a harsh mistress, and to survive even as a creative person means be economically savvy. In the case of a bootleg (such as Absent Lovers), the fact is that it already existed as a bootleg (and was generating someone some income), and that the sales of which represented a true desire on the part of listeners to hear, then to not avail oneself of this income stream due to "principles" would not only mean economic foolishness, it would show a great lack of humility as well. So I'd say that perhaps old Fripp is a little more money-cnetered these days, and perhaps overly so. But those of us who have at least tried to tackle the big issues in our lives have often manifested similar oscillations a times, so cut the old guy a little slack, eh? And what the hell, the thing sounds great. Oh yeah, does anyone else get the chills listening to Adrian's LTIA11 solo? -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:27:07 -0700 From: Eric Kirchner DDPIL Subject: RF's DGM letters Some thoughts on RF's recent DGM website posts: - I am happy that he has chosen to give people a 'window' into what's going on with him and with DGM world HQ. - I am still amazed at the amount of bile RF has saved up over the years in regards to record companies and management. It's nice to see somebody DOING something about a problem (in RF's case, setting up DGM) rather than COMPLAINING about it. - I am (and remain) a little disappointed with RF's not using E-T more in collecting feedback regarding the DGM Collectors Club and other projects in general. He has a great opportunity to tap in to the ideas of his firmest fan base, and I would be tickled if he took a more active role in contributing to E-T (particularly when it comes to possible releases). I'm sure he and Dan K. could team up on the survey end of things, and addressing us directly on other issues more consistently would (I suspect) certainly be a thrill to me as well as other E-T'ers. It is certainly his call, and I understand why he has chosen DGM's site as the first place to disseminate ideas, but I hope he understands how much we enjoy his work and welcome any opportunity to interact with him. As far as bashing the Roches for being "Christian Rock" - using 'Christian' as a pejorative seems a bit mean-spirited (and, as noted, inaccurate). I'm only guessing here, but between his music and writing, Fripp comes off as someone with established religious beliefs himself. Since we're already resolved to steer clear of one of the cardinal conversational sins with politics (thanks Toby!), can we C&D on religion as well? Just a thought -- Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:08:47 -0400 From: Roger Espel Llima Subject: no-man, Flowermouth > About No-Man "Flowermouth", great album and guitar > contribution by Fripp is superb I have an album by No-Man called "Flowermix"; is that a remixed version of "Flowermouth"? I thought it was just the plain album; how does "Flowermouth" compare to it? -- Roger Espel Llima, espel at llaic dot u-clermont1 dot fr http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:11:44 -0400 From: Rich Grasso Subject: Absent Lovers packaging wrote this a while back but it apparently was not included since it also contained some political commentary that was of little relevance to KC. here is what I wrote, without the aforementioned political nonsense: Picked up Absent Lovers last week and couldn't help notice the shoddy print job on the CD booklet. Large areas of the inside that contained white on black type were so far out of register as to be almost unreadable. anyone else have a copy like this? To make matters worse, after struggling to read them, I found them to be rambling and almost devoid of focus ( I usually enjoy Mr. Fripp's writings as they are usually quite interesting). The music more than made up for it though... Rich Grasso www.rich.grasso.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:01:09 -0700 From: Jym Dingler Subject: Simmons 5/7/SDX Regarding Frank Pfau's question on Bill's drums: > I have a bit of a technical question here in regard to > Bruford's Simmonds drums during the 81-84 KC tours: How > "touch sensitive" were they? > If they weren't able to change - that would be > awfully limiting in regard to the dynamics he could use; he > would be forced to use acoustic percussion only during more > quite moments. Just wondering... The old Simmons 5 system wasn't particularly touch-sensitive, and the pads had very hard surfaces. If you hit 'em, they went off, so the other acoustic batterie were most helpful. The SDS-7 was much more versatile and much had more sensitive input and out, but was still quite a pain to program. I never tried the SDX system but still have the 7, although I use Alesis modules with the Simmons pads. BTW, my distinctly Brufordesque chops put me at odds with the former lead singer for Christian rock band Petra, and I was fired just before the group became quite successful. We still chat occasionally. Maybe if I'd put that duct tape all over my Roto-Toms I'd have a couple of Grammys on the bookshelf... Nahhhhh, let the drums clang on! Excelsior! Jym Dingler jymd at pacbell dot net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:27:07 +1200 From: David MacLennan Subject: Lyrics, Beaton, Fergus Hall Greetings Crimheads! A few comments on bits and pieces from the last ET: From: J A Sontag Subject: Lyricist Poll? I would like to propose a survey question: best Crimson lyricist - a) Peter Sinfield; b) Robert Palmer-James c) Adrian Belew d) none of the above Well, I happen to rather like Sinfield (the lyrics to "Epitaph" and "21CSM", for example, sound perhaps even more relevant today than they did 29 years ago...) but on the whole I would have to vote for Richard (not Robert!) Palmer-James as the best KC lyricist, with Sinfield second. Sinfield can be a little florid, and while this appealed to me when I was an impressionable teenager, it doesn't so much now. Palmer-James, OTOH, shows a real economy with words, and his imagery is perhaps even better than Sinfield's (I think my favourite Sinfield lyric is "The Night People" off his solo album "Still"). From: Sandro Bassi Subject: Fergus Hall "Il Divino" I've been trying hard for years to know more about Fergus Hall, the painter on the sleeve of TYPG and The Compact KC:"The Landscape Player","Earth" and "Il Divino". I browsed The Portal Gallery site in London but his name is not listed. Does anybody know anything about this great artist ? I suggest you check out the ET archives, as Fergus Hall has been discussed before. A freind of mine has a Tarot deck by Hall, as used in a James Bond movie (it was sold as the "James Bond Tarot Deck" or something like that). I really like his work and would love to see more. I must say, thoguh, that Pam Crook is the best KC cover artist in more than 20 years. Just a shame that the size of the CD format lessens the impact somewhat -- I really like my "Epitaph" poster! From: chaos at mn dot uswest dot net Subject: Mr. Fripp's friend Beaton Is Beaton a pet? He likes the garden, carrots, and lives in a brick warren. Is Beaton a pet rabbit? Beaton is indeed a pet bunny, and not only that he's a NEW ZEALAND bunny! This makes us antipodean Crimheads very proud, that one of our countrybeings should be part of the Fripp household. See the May 23 issue of "Hello" magazine for a picture of the bun in question. Now I'm off to the ET website to cast my vote for the two-disc USA 2..... David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:03:17 PDT From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: video of "the nightwatch" was there ever a live video (bootleg or otherwise) of the particular show that is audible on the The Nightwatch CD. Is thera any news on the possible broadcast of the KC appearance on the Midnight Special television program on VH-1? Please respond via private e-mail listed above thanks Alfred Dodson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:21:59 +0100 From: "Peter & Tracey" Subject: USA 2 1CD or 2CD? Not being as much of a completist as I used to be, for the sake of five or six minutes, I would probably plump for USA2 being a single CD. For me, the inclusion of "Fracture" and "Starless" makes up for the loss of the improv. I would like to think, however, whenever a similar problem occurs in future releases, that Fripp carefully files away all these "missing bits" for a possible compilation. Having said that, whatever form USA2 is released in, I will still buy it. Pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:48:13 -0700 (PDT) From: noel swasta Subject: Crim Lyric Poll, and other spiel Hey all you crazy crim....people, J A Santog has a great idea about this lyric poll thing, i think. My only question, didn't wetton write any of the lyrics? I thought he did, with Red especially. Anyhow, if he didn't I vote Belew for the best lyrical content. But put those lyrics with the 70's crim and i think it would be bad news. It all depends on what time frame i guess. But for the most part, again, I vote Mr. Belew for best Crim lyricist. In other news... Not 100% crim related, I've been looking for some works by Emmett Chapman, the creator of the chapman stick, on cd. Does anyone know how I can get ahold of some of his works on disk? I have been playing stick for about 6 months now and would love to hear how the MAN himself did it. And finally...If anyone has an interesting band in the upstate NY area, and needs a bass/stick player email me privately at Cloneme at rocketmail dot com and we'll talk. And remember Crimheads in the words of the great Jerry Springer, "take care of yourself, and each other" Noel Swasta ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 18:59:12 -0400 From: Sandro Bassi Subject: A Message from Peter Sinfield Hello Few days ago I found a cool page of PFM (for those who don't know, PFM stands for Premiata Forneria Marconi, an italian prog rock combo from 1972). Their third and fourth albums "Photos of Ghosts" and "The World Became The World", had the lyrics re-written and produced by Pete Sinfield. Browsing on that page I found some kind of poster of a PFM concert with Pete as guest playing songs from Still. Anybody knows if that really happened?. I also found out that Pete is Still in touch with them, and they have plans to re-write the lyrics for their latest album Ulisse. Their home page, for those who want to know more about this great band is http://www.sectorel.pt/gaudela/pfm/main.html Sorry if I 'm not doing it properly, but I took this text sent by Pete to the address above and here I pasted it to share it with you all. Bye now Sandro Bassi sbassi at cantv dot net A Message from Peter Sinfield London, September 16th 1997 Hello - Congratulations on a fine site. I found it on a day when I was feeling somewhat sad with the world and it really cheered me up to see how much some people Still appreciate, for want of a better word the "work" that I did so long ago and far away. My very special thanks to David Eric Shur for his er. . gentle essay (how does he know more about me than I know about me....eeek!) on myself & among other things my contribution to the career of PFM. They remain one of the finest, kindest and most talented bunch of 'real' musicians it has ever been my pleasure and frustration to have sat in a studio with. It may amuse you to know that only weeks ago I bought (really) 2 copies of "World" which I had not heard for many, many eons. It has, in my opinion, some of the bands finest moments. But I would say that wouldn't I? I trust this brief umm.. entry in your guestbook will dispel the "was" which made me feel for a moment that I was not. For I am and the Gods willing will continue to Be for a few moons more!! I have talked (had dinner acctually) to Flavio about "Ulysses" and as you report with spooky accuracy I have both discussed it and played it to John Wetton with a view to taking on the daunting task of writing an English version. We shall see. Unfortunately I only have three heads. One of them is in love, one is trying to secure suffient funds in between bits of teaching and charity work to keep me comfortable in my advancing years and the third is still as angry and amazed as it has ever been. There you go! Love *PjS* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:09:56 +0100 From: "Dave Goldsmith" Subject: DGM collectors club Maybe I should aim this to the DGM website but I feel we may get more feedback ;) here. 1 Is KC material in RF's collection high enough quality to be used on 96hz 24bit DVD format? 2 Are there any plans to release KC material in this format? 3 Could this format be tried amongst the collectors club or are costs extreme at the moment? Any ideas on this? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:08:10 -0400 From: tonyola Subject: Re: KC Keyboard Players If King Crimson ever decided to bring in a keyboard player, I would like to nominate myself! (hell, I can dream, can't I?) Seriously, I think I'd rather see a saxophone player in the current KC lineup than a keyboardist - the precedent was set with the 1970s Crimson albums. The player would have to have the ability to adopt a fierce playing style, similar to Ian MacDonald's sax work to "21st Century Schizoid Man" and "One More Red Nightmare" - his solo in "Nightmare" could peel the paint off of walls. Kenny G wannabees need not apply. A good sax player would give Fripp or Belew another soloist to work off of while the rest of the band lays down the sonic foundation. Once again, I would like to nominate myself... I remember in the booklet for The Great Deceiver boxed set where Fripp discusses David Cross' frustrations with KC live work because his violin simply couldn't compete volume-wise with the rest of the band much of the time, so he was relegated to keyboards. I think a versatile alto or tenor sax player with strong lungs and proper amplification would have no problems whatsoever. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:06:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: Easy Money intro >Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 02:15:26 -0500 >From: Neal Brown >Subject: Easy Money > >I think what Jamie Muir uses in the intro to Easy Money is a >rain stick ...it's a long, hollow wooden stick with a bunch >of something or others on the inside. You turn the thing >over and all the beans or whatever inside slide down to the >other end and it makes a very "wet" sound; it's pretty >unprecise as instruments go, it's hard to get everything to >stop all at once like Jamie apparently does. Then again, >maybe he really is splashing around in a bowl of water or >something. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was the sound of Muir sploshing in wet cement. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:12:56 EDT From: Hocow at aol dot com Subject: USA survey Good Evening Frippies, I answered the survey 2 disc although I would be equally happy with a single disc so long as it contained a complete "Asbury Park". I could not bring myself to pick what to cut. It has been years since I heard USA, but didn't Easy Money fade out? If my memory is correct it would be nice to have the entire song. I would also make another suggestion although this may be more suited to the club release format. To Jobsonize or not? I would assume the overdubs would be left off in the interest of historical accuracy althogh many who have voiced interest in a rerelease seem to want them. I suggest that if the length of the material barely requires a second disc that bonus versions of the overdubbed cuts be included. I have a friend with Cream Disraeli Gears that includes the entire album in both stereo and mono mixes. It is fun to compare the minor differences. The Jobson / Cross variations would be far less subtle. As, if I understand correctly, USA II won't even be a DGM release perhaps this would be to esoteric an approach. So Long, Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 01:52:55 EDT From: Porcodio at aol dot com Subject: Tool/Fripp connection Greetings all, I have just returned home after spending 11 hours at Coral Sky Amphitheatre for Ozzfest '98. And let me tell you it was a great show, but "what does this have to do with Crimson or Fripp?" Well... during the soundchecks previous to each band's performance I noticed the usual popular type music with no surprises with exception for Tool. During their soundcheck, first i hear a track from the first Praxis album, Transmutation, which i was delighted to hear, then i heard some strange music which i didnt recognize, but still far from the usual soundcheck music. But when that music ended, some very slow, calm, growing, repetitive synth-like music began which bore a striking resemblence to Mr. Fripp's soundscapes. And then Tool appeared on stage and gave a great show. Unfortunately, i am not very familiar with the soundscapes recordings, so i cant say that it reminded me of any particular track, but it sounded exactly like a soundscape. Well, i dont know whether any of the bands chose the music to be played during their soundchecks but could this be yet another connection between Tool and Crimso? Or maybe, i had lost my hearing from Megadeth and the soundscapes were all in my head. Please tell me, did anyone else who has attended Ozzfest '98 or any of Tool's performances notice this, or does anyone have any inside info? I'd much appreciate it. thanx, Collin L. porcodio at aol dot com From George Khouroshvili To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Date: 28 July 1998 11:45 From: George Khouroshvili Subject: ProjeKcts vs new KC, D.Cross, GLM CD problems... Hello everyone! 1. >From: David Kirkdorffer Question: >Are possibly the new and various Projects more interesting >than what a new King Crimson studio recording would offer? I loved the projeKct2 (I think I'd buy 1 or 2 their shows thru the DGM club) but only a new KC album can make me happy. Let them make as many projekcts as they feel neccessary, I'd love to hear something like that from time to time, but... the new KC album (!!!) would be more interesting for me. 2. >From: J Young machismo at u dot washington dot edu> >Subject: David Cross at bumbershoot? David Cross and friends playing on Monday. ... by "friends," I'm sure they mean Fripp, Bruford, Muir, and Wetton. Very interesting information, if anyone knows something else about this inform us. I have some doubts about "friends" you suppose to see there. Jamie Muir's presence is impossible, Bruford?! - I wonder if they met each other during past 20 years (except the Playback), Fripp probably would attend, and Wetton too. So I think that the friends can be: John Wetton, Mick Paul, Paul Clark, Keith Tippett (?), John Dillon (?), Dan Maurer (?), Fripp (???). 3. From: terry kroetsch f >Subject: John Wetton mail >This is the contents of a letter JW wrote in response to a >fan letter from moi handed to him backstage at a Crimson >concert in Toronto 1974. > >I guess you can tell what questions I had asked in my >youthful quest for knowledge from a hero. Lovely gentleman >and so nice of him to take the time. I had a fax message from John too. It was a reply on my letter to his fan club and I was happy to hear from JW directly (I didn't expect him to take the time and reply himself). I agree, John is a very charming person and a nice man. 4. I had some problems with Gorn, Levin, Marotta CD too. My CD player swithches from one track to another without any problems, but the CD-ROM drive (Sumsung 24-x) acts quite weird: it plays this CD 3 times faster it should be and I can't make him to play it properly (though my Discman has nothing against this album - so I can listen to this album anyway). Something very strange about this CD... All best wishes, George ------------------------------ Date: 30 July 1998 18:47 From: David Todd Subject: Re: Camzone not a troll. Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't trying to give you the impression I was calling you a troll, I was calling your post a troll, which is a usenet-ism for "a post designed to elicit flames." Certainly I am not requiring you to like the Roches, or any one of their songs. However, from a technical standpoint their singing is rarely badly done. The fast lines in Largest Elizabeth are perfectly executed triplets. don't hear them as rushed at all. Certainly Monsieur Fripp would suggest hey do it again if they weren't. But again, I'm not suggesting you should like it, only that you should void flaming criticism. -- Hacksaw = David Charles Todd GTEI-BBNT = Hacksaw's Employer Hacksaw's Opinions != GTEI-BBNT's Opinions Linux understands you. ------------------------------ Date: 30 July 1998 19:28 From: john dot kimber at uk dot pwcglobal dot com Subject: USA and other ideas I thought I'd add my thoughts to the USA debate. I would much rather see an unedited version of the concert over 2CDs. I quite liked the suggestion that the USA remix tracks (ie Eddie Jobson's contributions) could be added as 'bonus' items. If we are limited to a single CD my vote would be to include full versions of Easy Money and Asbury Park and maybe lose Lament (and if necessary Schizoid Man). I also liked the suggestion of a CD of the 72 - 74 improvisations. Not edited together a la Thrakattack but just a series of improv with maybe the alternate version Of Dr Diamond. And whilst we're on this particular line up how about the Zoom Club sessions with Jamie Muir. Alot of improvisations and material that was to show up on later albums! To complete the picture we need a live CD from the Islands line up - preferably from the UK tour in 71. And then there is this version of this bad running through Larks' Tongues One coupled with chords from Lament (and a fine job they make of it too!!!). Any way I hope this provides some more food for thought. - what about it Robert? ------------------------------ Date: 30 July 1998 19:32 From: Robert and Diane Subject: Fripp and Spice and Pumpkin's With the unmitigated disaster of the Spice Girls Ginger Spice leaving the band, wouldnt it be nice to have Mr. Fripp join the Quartet? Dusty Spice maybe? On another note The Smashing Pumpkin's have alot of potential..A producer like Fripp or Brian Eno could do much with the band IMHO...Feedback from the Crimsonites is most welcome. Cheers Toby and thanks for keeping up this insanity for so many years.. a loyal reader DianeNYC ------------------------------ Date: 30 July 1998 19:58 From: John Barnas Subject: Christian Prog!? Hi all, (John hands Toby an Old Milwaukee) [ What's one of those? Something nice I hope! -- Toby ] Reading the responses to Calzone's "opinion" and then someone mentioning the group Kansas has led me to tell y'all about some music you may be interested in. The rock band Kansas was not a contemporary Christian group. Their original songwriter/guitarist Kerry Livgren had some kind of experience that led him to believe that there was some sort of reality to what Jesus Crist was talking about. That's when he formed his own new group called A.D. I think Kerry is, IMO, one of the finest guitarists of our day. A.D. made an album back in the mid 80's (out on CD) called "Art of the State". This release ranks as one of my favorite "progressive rock" albums. It is extremely well produced and also features great arrangements, great vocals and kickin' guitar. To be sure, I don't think the word Jesus is mentioned once, so some of you would not be offended to hear it. It mostly deals with Orwellian-type gov't control/decline of civilization stuff. The music is progressive in that it is harder rock but with some intense orchestral arrangements like the kind some Crimfolk like about KC and Yes, and ELP, etc. And I also know that many of you like that primo gutarist Phil Keaggy, also a Christian artist. Calzone! Don't limit your musical horizons! Don't tell other impressionable teenagers to close their ears to good music just because it might have a category label attached. Love to all, JB ------------------------------ Date: 30 July 1998 20:10 From: Steven Sullivan Subject: USAII, and doofuses The best suggestion so far regarding USA II is the one to make it a 2 disc set, with the complete show plus the 'original' Jobson-overdubbed version of the USA album as a bonus. If something *must* go, I'd suggest Schizoid Man be omitted from either or both. Btw, Cameron, here's what Merriam-Webster's has to say re: doofus: Main Entry: doofus Pronunciation: 'd-f&s, -fis Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural doofuses /-f&-siz/ Etymology: perhaps alteration of goof Date: 1970 slang : a stupid, incompetent, or foolish person -S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:03:42 +1200 From: David MacLennan Subject: Fripp the shameless marketing weasel, Part Umpteen... To all those who complain that Robert Fripp is ripping them off by "forcing" them to buy the soon-to-be remastered KC back catalog, please read, mark, and inwardly digest the following from The Man Himself, as posted on the DGM website the other day (the underlining is mine): "Another tired debate centres on the venality of the deceitful Fripp, remastering as technology develops and forcing loyal audients to part with their hard-earned pay and buy the entire catalogue once again. I would ask: why would anyone be dopey enough to buy a record they already own? Unless, of course, they want it in an enhanced/another format. Then the responsibility for the choice is theirs." Thank you, Robert, for taking the time to state what should be manifestly obvious to all, assuming that ETers are as intelligent a bunch as they are supposed to be. Yes, choice: this is what the "free market" is all about, isn't it? If you personally don't want to shell out for the remasters, then don't. But please don't accuse Fripp of greed or venality in allowing those of us who want enhanced versions of our favourite albums the choice of being able to acquire them if we so desire. I've had my money's worth out of the current remasters over the past decade and will happily buy the new ones as they become available. I will then sell my current ones, thus defraying some of the cost of the new ones. We do this with other items such as cars, computers, and washing machines, so why should it be any different with CDs (which in any case are far cheaper than the items I just mentioned)? (Soapbox Mode Switch to "OFF".) David Maclennan ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:24:26 -0400 Subject: 96KHz, 24 bit Super CDs Just took a look at Fripp's notes on DGM's website. He mentions the fact that a new "super-CD" standard is in the works, 24 bits (and 96KHz, I have read). He seems to be considering this in view of his upcoming plans to remaster the KC catalog, but the problem is the technology and standards for this format are probably two years away. But if he does choose to wait, this raises a very attreactive possibility. In the last few months, the big players in this new DVD-based format agreed to the following: a 44KHz, 16bit standard CD outer layer (compatible with all contemporary CD players), plus a 24bit, 96KHz inner layer (playable only by super-CD compatible DVD players). This means that someone buying this remaster could play it immediately on their CD player now, and should they choose to upgrade to super-CD hardware in the future, they will not have to purchase new software. Moreover, although there is no settled super-CD standard yet, some audio-only audiophile DVDs at this bitrate are already available. The word from even hardened analog-o-philes is that they sound superior to anything so far, and indistinguishable from the master tapes. Imagine having a master-tape quality version of Red! -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:38:32 -0700 From: Steve Haubrich Subject: discipline album cover Is the symbol on the cover of "Discipline" a Celtic triple knot? Does discipline have anything to do with the symbol? (I have read it is the never-ending cycle of life : body, mind, and spirit.) Thanks for the help, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:59:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Jim Bauer Subject: nominations for the Crimson keyboardist Dear Mr. Elephant: For the Crimson keyboardist, how about the two guys from Greenslade? They both worked with Ian Wallace, an old KC drummer, who, though admittedly was no Bruford, shows they are of Crimson caliber. Alternatively, what about Jan Hammer? His work with the Mahavishny Orchestra proves he can play backup for a hi-power guitarist, and that he can play a million notes a second, something that might come in handy for Crimson. Keith Tippet admittedly played piano with earlier incarnations of Crimson. By saying "he's no all-around genius like Emerson or Wakeman," I didn't mean to imply that he's no genius, what I meant was that Tippet only played piano; Emerson and Wakeman both played anything with keys on it, including such things as piano, organ, synthesizer, even instruments like harpsichord or accordian, which are not a staple with rock acts. Is Crimson "prog" enough to support a harpsichord? By the way, my home page just won the Jiggy Week Award, whatever the hell that is. Maybe it's some kind of No-prize. http://www.hi-line.net/~jbauer Nicotine-free Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:03:53 +0200 (CETDST) From: Markus Hollaender Subject: Bootlegs, lyrics, improvs, USA, graphics Hi all! Panyarak Poolthup wrote: [...] and Starless(8:49). The concert was recorded somewhere ->in Shizuoka, Japan, in 1977 [...] Hmmmmm... I guess a KC bootleg from 1977 would really be a sensation, even to Robert. They seem to have re-arranged Starless, since it's only 8+ minutes long :-) J A Sontag wrote: ->I would like to propose a survey question: best Crimson ->lyricist - a) Peter Sinfield; b) Robert Palmer-James c) ->Adrian Belew d) none of the above I would vote for Richard Fripp, eh, Robert Pa... well, now I got confused! ...for R. Palmer-James, closely followed by Belew. [...] there are ->pieces like "The Great Deceiver", "The Night Watch", and ->"Doctor Diamond" where poor John Wetton has to tie his mouth ->is a knot trying to force words in where the music doesn't ->want them to go. The reason that this doesn't happen with Belew's lyrics is surely that he sings his lyrics himself, so he can figure out what they will sound like and, if necessary, change them. P-J on the other hand didn't know in what tempo his lyrics would be sung (if I remember right he was in Germany at the time). David MacLennan wrote: ->Here's a suggestion for the DGM Club: how about a disc (or ->discs) of just improvs from the 73-74 KC? A great idea! But why release it through the club? The 73/74 improvs were usually much more "accessible" (IMHO) than the THRaKaTTaK material, so a disc (or two) of this stuff should do quite well in the stores... relatively well, of course (we're still talking about KC here!) But please, new material, not an "Abbreviated Great Deceiver"! Which brings us (or, rather me) to the USA re-issue: I would of course prefer the 2CD set with the complete show (and maybe some other archive material to fill up CD 2). But, if it's going to be a single CD, PLEASE don't edit Asbury Park! Rather leave out or edit 21st Schizoid Man; the version from Asbury Park has already been released on the Schizoid Man ep. On the other hand, if the above mentioned improv CD('s) came true, Fripp could use the AB edit on USA II and the full version on the improv CD... (just daydreaming.) Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au was looking for the website with LTIA graphics: It's at http://www.unpronounceable.com/graphics/raytraces_14.html. See also ET website, links page 1. Markus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:47:15 -0400 From: Andy Acunzo Subject: USA Hello Elephant Talkers, This is in response to Fripp's problem of whether to put out the revamped USA on 1 or 2 CDs. Schizoid Man from that show is already available on the Schizoid Man single, correct? So cut Schizoid and put out the rest of the show on one CD with the complete Asbury Park (and hopefully the complete Easy Money!). Completists who want the whole show can shell out for the Schizoid Man single (a note to that effect can be included with the CD), and everyone else can get the bulk of the show for a single CD price. Yours in megaphonium fanfare, Andy Acunzo aacunzo at sbchem dot sunysb dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:03:25 -0500 From: "Rob Murphree" Subject: Q&AB Questions and Adrian Belew Hi Tribe! I just wanted to drop you a quick note to let you know that Adrian has agreed to another Question & Answer session. To submit your question(s), send them to bec at murple dot com | Subject: Q&A. I will organize the questions, send them to Adrian and then post them in a forthcoming edition of the BIG ELECTRIC ChAT. To avoid repeating ourselves, please read over the last Q&A editions (February '97) of the BEC as well as the FAQ. BEC Edition 22 www.murple.com/adrianbelew/bec022.txt BEC Edition 23 www.murple.com/adrianbelew/bec023.txt BEC Edition 25 www.murple.com/adrianbelew/bec025.txt Adrian Belew F.A.Q. www.murple.com/adrianbelew/faq.htm This is your chance for a personal dialog with Adrian, don't waste the opportunity. I don't want to dictate what you ask but let's think of some questions that no music publication would ask. Afterall, we're the fans and we know him better. Thanks, and I look forward to getting your questions. Sincerely, Rob p.s. Gary Davis of the Artist Shop is organizing a live IRC Chat session with Mr. Belew as well. More details will follow the minute they become available. Please visit the Artist Shop and if you see something you like, buy it! The Artist Shop stocks a lot of the harder-to-find music and supports Adrian and Krimson. The Artist Shop - http://www.artist-shop.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:54:09 -0500 From: "Andrew Resnick" Subject: Re: Bills Drums Frank, If I recall correctly, Bill was using Simmons SDX electronic drums. Modern Drummer had a piece on them when they were introduced. Each drum (except the bass) had three concentric zones, and each zone had three pressure settings. The pressure settings were essentially flags demarcing different patches, as opposed to only three pressure sensitivity levels. I think the drums had continuous pressure sensitivity. You could assign up to 9 different patches to each drum, and each patch could be completely unrelated to any other. Each patch was fully controllable regarding attack, sustain, and decay. Basically these drums were 10 years ahead of their time. Even if they came out now, I doubt anyone could fully utilize the capabilities of these things. Andy Resnick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:41:11 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: What Words In ET Digest #527, Jeff Sontag came up with a topic for an ET poll and did a comparison of Crimson lyrics by Peter Sinfield, Robert Palmer-James, and Adrian Belew, which was excellent: I agree with most all of his comments, and concur with his feeling that Adrian's lyrics are tops. Adrian covers a wide terrain in his lyrics, from the pure Dada of 'Indiscipline', to one of the touchstones of American literature in the Beat 'Neil and Jack and Me ' (I feel that 'Naked Lunch' and 'On the Road' are two of the greatest American novels). Peter Sinfield: The lyrics for 'Epitaph' and 'Schizoid Man' are as relevant today as they were in 1969: Their subject matter remains with us today: war, inhumanity, a sense of dislocation, of the fragmentation of the soul. I love singing 'Epitaph,' though my voice does not have Greg Lake-like resonance. I'm not embarrassed by Pete's more florid moments, but I do think that it takes a great oratorio-like voice as Greg has, toput a charge in 'In The Wake of Poseidon': Plato's spawn cold iveyed eyes Snare truth in bone and globe. Greg sings these lines with a depth I'm not sure they'd have otherwise; Peter's lyrics for 'Cadence and Cascade,' 'Pictures of a City', and 'Catfood,' are stronger in image. Robert Palmer-James: Here I agree again with Jeff; although I do remember singing 'The Great Deceiver' all the time when 'Starless' was released, and still sing 'Easy Money' with John Wetton's introductory vocalism. It's a great song to sing in places like Las Vegas, the strange city of pastel facades and exercises in conspicuous waste. Mike I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:31:08 -0400 From: David Steimling Subject: cd problems,club,Beaton Hey all, (Dave thanx Toby for his wakefulness to cut the Christian "Rock" thread) Ive also had cd problems, but with the new CGT disc, Pathways. It locks my machine up. I guess its the catalogue. At work, I can control-alt-delete and kill it, but at home, its like a crash. It justs locks my system. c-a-d doesnt even work. Anyone else experiencing this? Id "just get another" but this'n is autographed so, Ill remember to hold down "shift" when I put it in. I believe that DGM will ship discs automatically unless otherwise notified to save costs. Itd probably be easier to cut down a list for disc mailing than to build one every time. I hope there is some kind of "cut off" date. ie: We'll know what the next disc is (hopefully) pretty well in advance and there will be a "let-us-know-by" date, or you get the disc. Will there also be some kind of policy regarding the "oops, I-shouldve-notified-them-I-didnt-want-this-one" scenario? Yes, Beaton is a rabbit. Thanx Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 08:57:23 +0400 From: Erik DePoy Subject: Need Help Identifying KC Show Pt. 2 My thanks to Erik Varga and Mike Dickson for trying to help me identify the Lark's Tongues era show I have on tape. I've got it narrowed down to the state of Texas (perhaps 1973), but the exact date and venue remain uncertain. One of the best ways to identify a tape is to provide a transcription of concert chatter (chit chat) for those who might also have a copy buried somewhere deep in their musical archives. Although the immediate goal of this transcription is to help me identify the tape, I figured it would prove interesting in and of itself. Following LTiA Pt. 1, our hero RF steps to the microphone: "Good evening happy hippies one and all, I trust you're in good health and spirits. It's always rather exciting...(?)...it's always rather exciting for King Crimson to be in Texas, not least of all because we have the very great privelige and pleasure of working with a very fine production company To-It (?) Wild West. It's also very happy to be in Texas because, eh the weather is generally very good, I was hoping to get a suntan this time. Unfortunately...unfortunately there's not enough sun. However we could always become cowboys I suppose (a woman sarcastically says "Yee-hah"). Ladies and Gentlemen, the first piece for this evening was the title track from the now legendary, the now classic King Crimson album Lark's Tongues in Aspic (applause). I would eh, I would like you all to know that we eh, we are not averse to applause (more of the same). Thank you folks, thank you. There's a number of interesting suggestions, eh I heard a lovely gentleman over here who said Get On Bang (sp?). Now eh, I should think that the American meaning of Get On Bang and the English one, they're probably completely different. Em, the English one is rather rude (laughter). Uh we'll be sure to get away from such filth and disgust and proceed with a song that begins side two. This is Easy Money. (applause, calls of "Louder! Can't Hear You! Quiet!). RF: "I know there are requests from gentlemen over here to play louder. I would eh, I would make one suggestion make it light enough- sir perhaps you'd care to listen more attentively (applause)." Aside from the task of identifying this show, does anybody know what Get On Bang means? And have we discovered a reference to one of RF's secret yearnings in life, to be a cowboy? (see the photo in the liner notes of THRAK). Hopalong Bobby perhaps? ^;-) Erik DePoy Lyubertsy, Russia P.S. If you're reading this RF, do take up the suggestion by Brian Eno's wife and come to play in Russia. We missed you the last time Crimson played in East-Central Europe and are optimistic you will find the time and opportunity to come play for us. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 23:37:50 -0400 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: RE: USA II Track Selections. In ET 527 Lake Hearn Mentioned: >I "vote" for inclusion of the entire Asbury park improv, >preferably at the expense of some other track. I believe >many will agree that "Asbury Park" is quite a treat (Check >out its ranking in the survey section of ET), and as such, >should be presented in its entirety. My view is that the >price savings from issuing a single cd set outweigh the >inclusion of the entire concert. If it were up to me I Actually I don't think their should be much difference in price for a 1 or 2 cd set. I picked up several 2CD sets averaging around $18.00 US. So I am willing to pay for a 2 CD set for a complete Asbury Park (I Just Love This Tune!!!) Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 01:07:47 -0700 From: Jim Allen Subject: Lyrics and Satan and the Club Hello fellow Crimheads: In ET #527, JA Sontag asked about lyrics. Although the focus in KC has been instrumental prowess, I love the lyrics, too. JA had a good point about how "Great Deceiver" and "The Nightwatch" might be too wordy for JW's own good. I'm more distressed about the use of the word "faggot" in GD than any verbosity and the actual words to TNW are just so beautiful that poor wood setting is kind of mitigated. Didn't RF say that they had to slow down the tempo to TNW live so John could sing it and, as such, it didn't quite work? I think that JW (I think) should get some due for the very witty lyrics to "One More Red Nightmare". I'd always thought that Richard Palmer-James was a front for JW/RF--not true of course. I'd rate his lyrics as my favorite KC words--unusual topics (a painting by Rembrandt???), great imagery etc. Adrian has some really great lines too--very witty. The Celine Dione enabler Peter Sinfield is probably an acquired taste. For every 21CSM there is "The Letter". I think the words on the first "side" of "Lizard" are fine. Dave Steimling brought up the subject of Satan/KC lyrics. I've always thought that "The Great Deceiver" and "The Mincer" were kind of "Satanic". TGD has the reference to "a friend with a cloven foot"--though I've thought that TGD is actually God. Am I even close? "The Mincer" has the line "They come better looking/But they don't come badder", something I've taken to mean Satan. The music is so creepy at that point that maybe I'm projecting. I'd love to get private e-mails to discuss KC lyrics. By the way, anyone who hasn't read RF's Journals from DMG World HQ re: the new CD club, should do so. They are so funny and thought provoking. One possible solution to the USA II 1 CD v. 2 CD situation is to not include "Schizoid Man" at all but keep the complete "Asbury Park" improv to get it on 1 CD. It's on the "Schizoid Man" single, so it's available, though not readily, of course. As the set list around that time also included an improv after "Easy Money" and before "Fracture" (like "Providence") and KC were on fire at Asbury Park, I hope that improv, if it exists, is included. I'd prefer to have the 2nd CD, if that is decided to be the format, to be filled with more archive material, but that doesn't seem to be an option. Anyone out there know if the legendary Central Park show is in the pipeline? Any information, privately of course, would be most appreciated. Other things I'd like to see the club release: 1. Any rehearsal tapes of the RF/BB/JW/Ian McDonald band that never toured due to KC "ceasing to exist". 2. CD's of 73-74 improv only (I'm full of versions of "Easy Money") 3. A CD of RF announcements--they are priceless. Yours in Crimson, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:48:57 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: 1 disc or 2 discs poll >From: "Kirkdorffer, Daniel" >Subject: NEWS: Survey: USA - 1CD w/Asbury Park abbreviated >or 2CDs? Boy, talk about a foregone conclusion. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 05:07:42 -0400 From: "RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR." Subject: Hey, Wait, I got a new complaint! First off, please!*! I endured the 80's "video killed the radio star" subsequent to the '76 DISCO experience, and dug ditches at minimum wages in the 80's to feed my family. I ain't kiddin' here. No-one owes me anything here, and I will never owe anyone anything. I appreciate and encourage and expect the exposure of some of KC's target market's displeasure with what will be the continued release of archive material. Emphasis on the "continued" demark! Constructively speaking: Until you have experienced the effective alienation from daily enjoyment of pleasurable sound from radio broadcast such as we endured during the DISCO '76 and '77 years (the role of FM radio in rural upstate NY was very important, even in "77!), you will never know how much in my opinion some appear to whine today.) I was there! I can't help it, do you know what it was like like to find decent access to music from any active band in 1976 upstate NY with an attention span greater than JohnTravolta? ( John the product not the person, I would treat John as an equal today. ) It simply didn't exist. And us living next to Mcintosh Labs, Binghamton, NY waiting our turn. All that technology and disco eating away at my soul. How could you possibly believe anything is going to stand in our way now? Why do you think KC exists now? The ineffective marketing of "progressive" music today is shared now between us. The ineffective marketing of "progressive" music is shared between us. (I do not repeat myself under stress I recognize the futility of building alliance immediately under stress. ) What is productive in fighting the distribution of music to the market identified by DGM? In effect you are helping DGM identify product, price, place and promotion. (There are two distinct issues raised here in case someone missed the entire point!) ( And further clarification is added that access to data available to satisfy newer fans of KC Giantly exceeds (or should at DGM 's hands ), the data of fans that may have something more chronigically enjoyable with Mr. Fripp. We hold the money and some element of mystery. You hold the future of KC, why isn't that enough? It is only the timing of some kind of transferrance of power that exists, and that paradigm is questionable isn't it? And yet I can't help but laugh out loud here because so many posts exhibit the inabilty to perceive mr. Fripp as an Individual relative to KC. Wouldn't Bob's efforts be in vain should most fail to acknowledge that KC is a PARADIGM? A wonderful living paradigm? How progressive can you get? Damn if someone insisted on describing me as a package rather than an individual, 20 minutes would get the five. Regarding archival releases. At local pricing of $18.98 per 2CD set; the competition is simply not participating. How dare you insult anyone for providing me access to this music. If you want KC to succeed let us pay for it. *Enter the sterotypical class action denial of market values so typical to the left brain entity (or is that right brain?) (What is your problem?!!) We that have spent tons of money in pursuit and preservation of obsolete technology and do not expect simple respect for our comments in ET. Nor did we need it 10 years before many were born! Chuckle. Do you know what virgin vinyl cost in '84 versus today's dollars? I am especially fond of the memory of reading Mr. Fripp's comment that he expected those with an ear to prefer vinyl yet acknowledged virgin vinyl vs standard melt of vinyl recyclables to be the requirement of an audiophile and acknowledged that as a commodidity virgin vinyl is unavailable. The access to music has never been better and the cross you bear to "endure" our access to archive KC material will never be more priviladged than now. And yet I am unsure whether Fripp's liner notes to "Absent Lovers" regarding the future necessity of multinationalist's replacing the role of national governments is "off limits" to ET. Isn't that sad? Why should "prog" endure staple media censorship? Because we are not special. Right? Why not let the more "progressive" members of ET enjoy an intensively moderated quarterly forum established from submitted themes by ET'rs. Those of us that visit ET to embrace life rather than escape it would certainly benefit from the cebrebral content. Shouldn't we? Why does there appear to be so little commitment in ET to bringing KC's music to the market? James Dean might say:.. or maybe he might just frown. All this I offer with no adulation for Mr. Robert fripp or Captain Kangaroo! The fact of the matter is there is something happening here that has been presented under someone's apparent "cross" of acknowledging in great detail the combination of combining creativity, business sense, and a hell of alot of personal commitment to submission to personal "all or nothing thinking". I never ignore testament such as this and witness efficient and fervent attack. Especially when I see someone has been paid very well. Y'all come back now here? Henry David thoreau is one of my heroes. (Hope that isn't off limits to some previous discussion.) ------------------------------ From: "Eric Best" Subject: Re: The Roches' - Keep On Doing Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 01:37:07 +1000 ----------------------------- >Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:57:52 EDT >From: Camzone at aol dot com >Subject: The Roches' - Keep On Doing > >It is listed in the discography on Robert Fripp, but I just >had to warn you people. > >Although it has Robert Fripp, Bill Bruford & Tony Levin on >it... DO NOT BUY THIS EXPECTING GOOD MUSIC. It's Christian >pop . [ Further quoting of this wisdom suppressed -- Toby ] Hi All! I couldn't let this delightful piece considered critical analysis go by without some comment! 1] Like Toby, I believe this is a superb record. Fripp's solo on Losing True, interweaving with the Roches' singing, is, for me, one of the most satisfying aural experiences in rock music. This album is a must for that alone. The Hallelujah Chorus is not "Christian pop ". It is an a-cappella rendition [for me, clever, but not satisfying] of the famous chorus by Handel. It is barely pop. If the fact that this piece is Christian offends anyone, I would warn against buying the latest album of the California Guitar Trio: it contains a wonderful rendition of Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring. You may feel proselytised! 2] Since when does a music's spiritual roots disqualify it, ipso facto, from being good music? Does Cameron want us to trash 90% of the world's traditional music? How about all the great Gospel and Soul music? Do nihilism, or secular materialism, qualify as better bases for authentic music? If it does, then why do I so often find myself turning off the car radio in musical frustration? 3] "One swallow doth not a summer make" and one song from the Messiah oratorio does not a "Christian pop" band make; especially when another piece on the album is titled [whimsically] "Sex is for Children" and the group also sing a song about affairs with married men. I would love to see more collaboration between King Crimson and the Roches. They provide the kind of emotional anchor which can transform Fripp's playing from brilliant to ecstatic. Cheers, Eric. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:28:06 EDT From: Nel3 at aol dot com Subject: Christian music vs Heathen music - a plea for political incorrectness! Christian vs Heathen music - aren't we taking on the subjects of great import now? I've found most of the posts slamming Cameron Devlin's "review" of the The Roches' album to be right on the mark...and totally ignorant... at the same time. These pleas for tolerance of the Roches album all seem to be apologies for inclusion of a piece of Christian music or to point out (correctly) that the Hallelujah Chorus is not considered "Christian" in nature - presumably because it's original (religious) intent has been forgotten while Handel is just a mainstream classical composer. Of course, I agree that this album is NOT "Christian" music. And The Roches album is actually quite good - AND one should not denigrate the album because (heaven forfend!) It contains a piece of religious music. But our posters (w/the exception of Jim Bricker - ET526) have also missed the point entirely. As he correctly points out, there are a number of artists out there who have a distinctly religious bent to their music, their lyrics AND are producing pretty incredible music. Mr. Bricker mentions among others Jars of Clay - which I've seen live and must say their message is right on the edge of being over the top for me - I prefer my message more subtle. But they're a damn good band live! Genesis used a large amount of distinctly Christian religious imagery in their music in the Gabriel years - Supper's Ready for instance. Gabriel's albums continue to use such imagery liberally - sometimes with secular intent, sometime with religous intent. The oft-critisized, occassionally praised Topographic Oceans by Yes at times focuses on very Christian symbols as does other music by the band. Peter Townshend w/and w/out the Who mixes Christian and Eastern theologies and images in many many songs. Bruce Cockburn over 20+ albums has never strayed from wearing his religious feelings on his sleeve and has produced some of the most amazing and thought- provoking music of the 70's, 80's and 90's. Christian music you want Christian music - how about Neil Young, Toad the Wet Sprocket, Crowded House, Sting, Simple Minds, The Innocence Mission, Joni Mitchell, Deacon Blue, The Blue Nile and hey potential new KC vocalist Kate Bush!! Everyone one of them to a last has written distinctly Christian songs! I frankly find the use and reference to articles of faith in song to be most engaging and uplifting. It CAN bring tremendous depth to the meaning of a song if used well. And btw, I'm not down on other religious imagery in songs either - like the type used by Richard Thompson or Suzanne Vega.... So guys, please stop falling all over yourselves to distance yourself from (omigod) religion in songs! It's ok, really... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 20:41:25 +0100 From: "Nick Smith" Subject: A Percussion Discussion Listening to "Easy Money" again recently, I think the modulated bell sound produced by Jamie Muir on this track was generated by striking then bending either a musical saw, or the smaller flexitone. I'm sure Muir must have used the water/metal vessel at some point in his career, but it's I think it's a bit too in-exact and un-reliable to be responsible here. Nick Smith P.S. Bit of a thin connection here I'm afraid. My current faves are the American duo Indigo Girls. Regular live band members are Jerry Marotta (Sylvian/Fripp and early version of the current Crimson) on drums, and Sara Lee (League of Gentlemen) on bass. Other album guests have included Tony Levin, and The Roches. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:51:39 -0400 From: "Mike/Mary" Subject: I need vinyl Earthbound, scratched boss's copy! Hello ETers, I'm so in need of Earthbound on vinyl. I irreperably scratched by boyfriend's boss's copy that he lent to us. If anyone has any leads to whom I might contact who would have it, please let me know. I'd be so grateful! Please e-mail me privately. Thanks, Mary Garito garken at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:46:55 -0700 From: "Elston" Subject: USA: Easy Money edit Crimson fans have been responding in waves regarding the pending release of USA and the entire Asbury Park concert. I find it interesting that everyone has comments about the Asbury Park improv edit but no one has asked whether Easy Money will be presented in its entirety. The tune was faded midway through a great Fripp solo. Was "Asbury Park" the only improv from this concert? KC normally played two or three per set. Did the group open for another band or was it the headliner? Most important, does this victory for the USA diehards mean the Central Park gig of 1974, the swan song of the Cross-Fripp-Wetton-Bruford band and regarded by some as this quartet's best performance, will not see the light of day as an official release? Re the DGM club, I have no problem with the idea of having to notify the company in order to refuse a new release, as long as sufficient notification is provided that identifies the upcoming release and its sound quality. The club's first choice was revealed two months in advance. That's plenty of time to decide. Let's hope future selections will be as timely. At any rate, I think it's worth 96 bucks over the next year or so to see what's available. I plan to be a charter member. I wonder about packaging. Some of these CD pressings will be limited. Will they be distributed in a plain brown wrapper with little or no information about the performance? Will they be as interesting and the liner notes as elaborate as in the recent series of Crimson archive releases? I realize the aural experience comes first, but liner notes and photos add to the enjoyment. Fripp hates bootleggers, and rightfully so. I hope the DGM CD collection doesn't resemble cheap boot packaging. Thanks to those who e-mailed me with information about the 1972 KC Winterland gig, although I'm beginning to believe I'm the only ET reader who was there. Casey Elston ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #528 ********************************