Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #519 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 519 Tuesday, 7 July 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: latest tour dates info at ET Web NEWS: bruford at the royal festival hall NEWS: In a bookstore? Upper Extremities Reggae Suggestions Margin of error Exposure Stick wanted Genesis reunion Problems with ET Joyous Noise Yet another Toyah sighting Re: progressive Sociopolitics and music Magma Damage, again two questions for Fripp By Moon And By Sun Of Elephants And Stuff Girl (elephant) talk Cheikha Rimitti For Sale Girl (elephant) talk RE: Girl (elephant) talk Earthbound; Fripp and Eno RE: Gordon Haskell absence on Frame By Frame Re: A little paranoia keeps us on our toes FOUND - The Great Deceiver KC and Gabriel schedule conflict? Re: Girl (elephant) Talk Desperately seeking Toyah live KC Montreal GIG REVIEW: CGT au Pub Saint-Alexandre, Quebec, June 26, 1998 GIG REVIEW: CGT @ Borders in Paramus NJ ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:54:03 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: latest tour dates info at ET Web First of all, just a quick word to apologize to anyone who hasn't been able to get to ET Web the past few days - you are not alone. Please keep trying, as I'm sure the situation will be resolved soon. Meanwhile, just so that this info is accessible to email recipients of the digest, here is the latest we have for upcoming tour dates: ProjeKct Two Note: with Rob Muphree's help, it has been confirmed that a previously listed July 5th Buffalo, NY show will not be happening. 06-Jul-98 The Guvernment, 132 Queen's Quay East, Toronto, Canada - Tel: (416) 466-3081 08-Jul-98 Metropolis, 822 Sherbrooke East, Montreal, Canada - Tel: (514) 525-7732. As part of the Jazz Festival. 09-Jul-98 Le Grande Theatre, 28 Elgin Street, Quebec City, Canada - Tel: (514) 288-7500 King Crimson 81-84 and ProjeKct Two - Signing / Playbacks for the release of "Absent Lovers" Live 80's KC, and "Space Groove". Belew, Fripp, Gunn and Levin in attendance. 10-Jul-98 Musique D'Auteuil, 1092 Rue Saint-Jean, Quebec City, Canada - 2pm 11-Jul-98 HMV Megastore, 1010 Ste-Catherine West, Montreal, Canada - 2pm Bill Bruford & Earthworks - European Tour 18-Jul-98 Queen Elizabeth Hall, South Bank Arts Centre, London, England, Rhythmsticks Festival 19-Jul-98 Ronnie Scott's Club, Birmingham, England 29-Jul-98 Maritime Rooms, Southend, England, Southend Jazz Festival Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 19:06:11 +0100 From: kate dot d at virgin dot net Subject: NEWS: bruford at the royal festival hall Figured someone might want to know that BB is performing at the above venue (sometime between the 18-26 july) as part of "rhythm sticks '98" info/box office phone 0171 960 4242 be quick now, you snooze you L O S E ashley ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:08:24 -0400 From: Ken Mistove Subject: NEWS: In a bookstore? Hi all, I just got back from listening to the CGT and Tony Geballe perform at a nearby Borders bookstore. It was an odd, but intimate setting for a very enjoyable set of music. Here are the remaining (provided this arrives in time) east coast tour dates, in case you missed the previous announcements: Date City Venue Address Time July 6 NYC, NY WNYC Radio 1 Centre Street 11:00am 6 EAST BRUNSWICK, NJ Borders MidState Mall 300 Rt.18 7:00pm 7 NYC, NY Bottom Line 7:30 & 10:00p 9 PHILADELPHIA, PA Ethical Society 1906 Rittenhouse Sq. 7:30pm 10 COLUMBIA, MD Borders 9051 Snowden Sq. 3:00pm 10 BALTIMORE, MD Orion Sound Studios 7:30pm 11 GAITHERSBURG, MD Borders 534 No. Frederick Ave 12:00pm 12 PRINCETON, NJ Borders 601 Nassau Park, Bld. G 1:00pm It's well worth the time if you can make it to any of these. BTW, the Border's performances are free. I met Hideyo, Bert, Paul and Tony briefly after the performance. They thanked me for coming. I in return, thanked them for playing. I just think it's funny that musical events always seem to end up with an exchange of verbal thanks. Hopefully, I can get a track from the new CGT's "Pathways" as well as a track from Tony's "Native of the Rain" up on ETape soon. Your ETape host, Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 20:47:42 -0400 From: Tomas Subject: Upper Extremities After waiting for over a month, my local record outlet finally informas me that Bruford/Levin UPPER EXTREMITIES is not available. I thought this disc was coming out in May? Anyone out there know wnything about this? Has it been held up? Are the folks at my local record outlet a bunch of pikers? Please e-mail me privately if you have any light to shed on this matter. Thanks. *************************************************************************** * Tomas * "The President has kept all of the * * West Chazy, NY USA * promises he intended to keep." * * tomas at slic dot com * - George Stephanopolous * *************************************************************************** * Howie Web: http://www.howies.org/ * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:37:47 EDT From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Reggae Suggestions I'm going to be subbing for the Reggae show on a local radio station on Saturday night and would prefer to add a little variety, instead of just playing the Marley/Tosh/Spear standard fare. I welcome any suggestions on peripherally reggae artists/songs/albums from members of this fine list. It's got to be relatively close to reggae. PLEASE RESPOND BY PRIVATE EMAIL TO markjx at aol dot com by Saturday night. Posting responses to ET will surely bring the wrath of Toby! [ You bet. -- Toby ] Thrak On! Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:00:27 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Margin of error Ok, driven by the recent discussion about the validity of the ET Web surveys, I've been diving into books on surveys and the determination of margin of error factors, and, where I have been able to so far, indicated a margin of error with the results. Not being a statistician, I expect my understanding and application of equations to be open to questioning, but I plan to persevere with this issue until I get it right (if that's even possible). If anyone would like to comment, please feel free to do so via direct email. No need to burden the digest with this much further. Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:40:58 EDT From: Sjmdeep at aol dot com Subject: Exposure I, like so many, hold the deepest respect for the work of Mr. Robert Fripp. Given the much publicized disdain for photography, and the apparent avoidance of "energy vampires", I have maintained my distance. Mr. Fripps music has had a profound impact on my life over the past 15 years. I have watched as "music has leaned over and taken him/us in its confidence" on numerous occasions. To those who are taken aback by Roberts request for privacy, and attentive listening, I share a moment of tenderness. Unable to attend the Tower Record Signing, my son Tom, age 5, with my girlfriend to chaperone, left to meet Mr. Fripp and the boys. After a long wait in the rain, my son was treated with great kindness and sensitivity by Mr. Fripp. He even was invited to have his picture taken with Mr. Fripp( As seen on Tony Levin's Road Diary). Mr. Fripp's treatment of this young man, my son, has been received as a gift. My chances of thanking him personally are slim, so I share with you all a new twist. Robert Fripp may turn from those looking to capture his image, or duplicate a performance, but let us remember the man so willing to open his heart to a young child. To the faithful ETers, your hero has done it again. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 09:53:25 PDT From: "Abhi Bungale" Subject: Stick wanted Anyone here selling a Stick? Let me know via private e-mail. Thanks, Abhi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 12:09:39 CDT From: Jared M Rodecker Subject: Genesis reunion I hate to spread unconfirmed rumors, but I thought a lot of people on this list might be interested to know that someone posted on the Spock's Beard list the other day that they had heard unofficial reports of a 10-20 date tour being planned for Genesis in the states with Peter Gabriel! I don't want to get anyone's hopes up if this turns out to be false, but hopefully it's not. Jared Ken Mistove kmistove at eclipse dot net My music and other stuff: http://www.eclipse.net/~kmistove/ King Crimson music (Elephant Tape): http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:02:53 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Problems with ET By now, you'll all have heard about the problems at the ET web site, so I would offer my site as an alternative for the moment. "The Definitive King Crimson" --- http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4472/kcrimson/kcrimson.html Cameron Devlin Webmaster "The Defintive King Crimson" is (c) Cameron Devlin 1997, 1998 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 14:14:29 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: Joyous Noise Prior to the "Epitaph" and "Nightwatch" live sets, the only live recordings I'd heard from Crimsky-Korsakov were the 33 1/3 rpm "Earthbound" and "USA" vinyl sets, and the live tracks from the "Frame by Frame" boxed set; so the performances on "Absent Lovers" is new to me. "Absent Lovers" completely rocks! I've been playing it not-stop since buying it last Wednesday. The performances from "Three of a Perfect Pair" outdo those from the studio recordings to my ears. Larks Tongues Part III here is unbridled top-gear rock kickers; and Larks Tongues Part II is more fluid than other versions I've heard; the guitar crash here is set off by Bill Bruford's and Tony Levin's have rhythm section will travel. I feel that "Nightwatch" and "Absent Lovers" are the best live recordings I've heard this year. I had not heard of Michael Brook till the announcement on ET of a newsletter devoted to his music. So, I bought his "Live at the Aquarium" when I stopped at the store to pick up "Absent Lovers." Magnificent, involved performances. Another great new artist I've been introduced to due to music sites on the web. Tommy Kochel wrote that he'd done a cassette featuring performances of Larks Tongues I u III, Talking Drum, and B'Boom/Thrak. I thought this was a great mix, and made a tape using Tommy's list as a blueprint: My tape runs thus: Larks Tongues Parts I & II (from "Frame by Frame"); The Talking Drum & Larks Tongues Part II (from "The Nightwatch"); Larks Tongues Part III (from "Three of a Perfect Pair"); B'Boom & THRAK (from "B'Boom); The Talking Drum & Larks Tongues Part II (from "B'Boom"); "Larks Tongues Part III, Industry, and Larks Tongues Part II (from "Absent Lovers"); THRAK, This Night Wounds Time, and THRAK Reprise (from "THRaKaTTaK"). Thanks for the idea Tommy! I'm leaving now to see Yes at Pine Knob tonight, so my best of everybody on ET. Mike I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Mahmood Subject: Yet another Toyah sighting Hi all, Pg. 19 of Antoni Diller's _LaTex: Line by line_ (an excellent book BTW) has the following example: {\global\def\toyah{Toyah} Robert Fripp} married \toyah\ Willcox. -ckm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:56:05 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: progressive >From: "S. Winant" > >My point was that what makes prog >"progressive" was and IS its distinctive combination of an >explicit desire to experiment, a broad set of >timbres/rhythms/forms/etc., a desire/need for instrumental >skill, and a concern for theme and image that might not be >found elsewhere in "popular" music. Hmm...I really can't buy such a vague description. So Elvis Costello is "prog" then, right? I've observed an intermittent need in prog-rock circles to rationalize "prog," to broaden the word's cultish connotation in order to make it seem more pervasive today than it really is. Some prog fans (not necessarily the above one) try turn back the definition of "progressive" rock back to a more general dictionary definition, so that they can comfortably attach the term to a wider range of current artists. This just doesn't wash. The term is futile if you're going to use it to describe *any* music that's exploratory or in the vanguard. You might as well say that you're a fan of "Innovative Rock," and attempt to establish that as a genre. Nope, won't work. There's more to this realm of music that merely experimentation, instrumental skill and a broad set of forms (and c'mon now -- pop music is *endlessly* more eclectic than prog, anyway). The prog scene is far more insular than that. >From: Kevin Simonson > >Vintage Vinyl in St. Louis MO has a copy of 'Damage' for what appears to >be $9.99. That was released on vinyl? Eb np: Shonen Knife/Happy Hour (barely competent instrumentally, and I wouldn't have it any other way) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:06:59 +1000 From: "STUDER, Andrew" Subject: Sociopolitics and music RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR. said >To Whom It May Concern < long, marginally interesting, sociopolitical rant removed > >What do you'all think? Well I think two things and (as part of the second thing) have a suggestion for you. 1) The second part of your post is out of place in this newsgroup. I could care less about your politics. I am admittedly intruiged that you thought it so essential to share those opinions with us. 2) Interestingly, after reading your post, I have no idea about what you think of the music. Do you buy DGM releases purely because it seems a well run business? If I can ask a very unfocused question, how do you *feel* when you listen to a DGM recording? My suggestion is this: if your investment business is going so well (and boy am I looking forward to the next stock exchange crash), why not take a little time out and learn a musical instrument? Why not accoustic guitar? (Hell, if you were keen, you could even do a craft course) Why not devote half an hour of your time everyday to the pursuit of an objective that will yield no financial reward, give you a chance to relax (and yet still engage your intellect) and might broaden your horizons a bit? Come back to us in 6 months and tell us how your music's going. And who knows, it might put off that heart attack or nervous breakdown that I foretell is just around the corner. Andrew Andrew Studer Bomb Disposal Experts' Wives: ajs at ansto dot gov dot au Keep hubby on his toes by Neutron Scattering putting plasticene and an old ANSTO, Menai 2234 alarm clock in his lunchbox. - Viz handy hint ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:03:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Jim Bauer Subject: Magma I've been gone from these pages for awhile, recuperating from yet another eye surgery (detached retina this time; glaucoma and cataract before that), so my response may not seem timely to the guy who originally posted the message, or he may even not be reading ET anymore, but... Hell yes, I remember Magma! I discovered thew while living next door to Bozo Rebebo, the Bozo King. Submarines were lurking in my foggy cieling. We were smoking gnome grown: made in der voods by der elves. Or, as Timothy Leary always used to say, "I'm a submarine Captain; I'm _always_ torpedoed." For more on my relationship with Nicotine Tim, please consult the file DEAD on my homepage. http://www.hi-line.net/~jbauer/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 23:17:42 -0500 From: Curtis Franks Subject: Damage, again Perhaps it should be voiced. I'm not too certain that Damage was meant to be a limited edition. For some time I've heard that Sylvian just wasn't happy with the way Fripp mastered the tapes (i. e. soundscapes in front and infinite guitar lost in the mix) and so stopped production after a few thousand copies. Regardless, it seems odd that anyone would so want it to stay a limited edition. Does that make the music any better? Or is that the reason anyone purchased the album in the first place? Maybe those should give up their copies to people who just want to hear the music (and may've not been fans or aware at the time). In any case, I personally think Fripp got the balance just about right. Curtis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:41:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: two questions for Fripp I pose these as direct questions to Mr. Fripp, but anyone else reading this knows he's already answered them in some other forum, please feel free to chime in: 1) Why were David Cross' violin contributions to USA overdubbed in the studio by another player? 2) How do you reconcile your stance against bootlegging in particular and recoding live performances in general with the release by DGM of live Crimson, some of which is derived from bootleg sources? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 23:19:24 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: By Moon And By Sun >From ET #518 Jennifer asked if "Crimso" could ever have a woman member > and be considered Prog?" I believe, during the Wake of Poseidon recordings, that Robert Fripp was after both Keith Tippett and Julie Driscoll joining the band; also, from "A Child's Guide to King Crimson," There was a version of "I Talk to The Wind" with Judy Dyble doing the vocals. She wasn't in the band long though, I believe. She was on the first Fairport Convention album, did this take, and from there...? Just returned from the Yes concert, at an outdoor theater a bit north or Detroit, bathed by the sun and the moon on a perfect cool summer evening. I was surprised as to no new works performed ("Big Generator" was the last touched on), but other than that, a great time; they dug their dinosaur bones, and dug them well; all of us, all the audience, very upbeat and happy after the concert; though I do remember random chants of "Bring Back Bruford!" which Alan White would immediately cover with spontaneous drum solos. Did well at one of the local record stores Friday, trading in some popish hit parader recordings and picking up Bill Bruford's Earthworks live album "Stamping Ground." This is the first Earthworks I've picked up; to my surprise, it was also the only Bruford recording in the store. I also chose a Gong retrospective, titled ""Wingful of Eyes" featuring music from 1975-78. During what time was Steve Hillage in the band? I found this quote from Mike Howlett's liner notes interesting: "This may therefore be a suitable occasion to clarify perhaps, daevid allen's original intention and principle in forming Gong. At the core is the idea that through music are communicated ideas, concepts and emotions beyond the capabilities of language alone. Added to this is the concept of the musician as an instrument of music, that despite foibles of personality and vain strugglings with technique, a group of musicians act as a conduit, transcending individual intent." This reminds me of comments by Robert Fripp regarding the nature of music and its emergence into the world. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:28:28 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: Of Elephants And Stuff gary dot l dot weimer at awo dot com wrote... > my scope of the "progressive" label was that it was applied to a kind > of music that attempted to bring different influences (symphonic, > classical, electronic, etc.) into rock music. Gary is entirely correct in limiting the description to his opinion only. The truth is that 'prog' is a notoriously awkward item to nail down and encompasses an enormous variety of music, the only common criterion of which is that it attempts to be a bit beyond what was the current norm. Jennifer Gray wrote... > Just a question. Could Crimso ever have a woman member and > be accepted as "prog"? Probably, although there are precious few prog bands that ever featured core members who happened to be female. (In fact I can only think of one and that was Gong) Elston wrote... > Earthbound is a mess, poorly recorded and featured uninspired > performances. If the only reason you ever play 'Earthbound' is to hear 'Schizoid Man' then it's worth the effort. There has never been a more monstrous version of this song. Yes, it peaks and distorts everywhere but where would rock and roll be without all that stuff?! Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 09:37:47 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Girl (elephant) talk Jennifer Gray wondered: > Just a question. Could Crimso ever have a woman member and > be accepted as "prog"? That would depend on the woman, and of course what definition of "prog" one is using. If it was someone like Carla Bley or Liz Fraser, and we mean "exploratory" rather than "boring noodling on too many moogs", why not? Haven't heard the League of Gentlemen stuff, so don't know how "progressive" it was, but it featured Sara Lee on bass, I think. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 02:54:43 -0700 (PDT) From: J Young Subject: Cheikha Rimitti I was shopping online, and was searching for "fripp" as usual, and I ran across an entry for Rimitti/Fripp/Flea. After a bit of digging on ET Web and all-music guide, I found that this combo played on two albums, _Sidi Mansour_ and _Cheika_. Flea describes it on http://www.bassplayer.com/vault/flea.htm Not that many, but probably my favorite is an album by Cheikha Rimitti called Sidi Mansour. She sings so beautifully. It's rhyme and traditional North African music mixed with me on bass, Robert Fripp on guitar, and the Dead Kennedys' East Bay Ray on guitar. The songs are kind of tribalish grooves, and I'm playing funky bass over percussion and microtonal flute. here's a review: http://www.schoolkids.com/main/world.html Cheikha (Crazy) Rimitti is an Algerian singer who has remained a significant force in the evolution of Rai music since she began recording in the 1930s. Here, at the age of 70, she's created perhaps her most adventurous work. Brilliant, sly, and ferocious music full of sensual abandon, Cheikha is a recently released companion disc of unreleased tracks from Sidi Mansour and deeply grooved dance remixes as ambitious as it is infectious. So this has piqued my interest-- what's the word on these? Which one is better? Shamus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:38:40 EDT From: Papiav at aol dot com Subject: For Sale I have a few items for sale. 1. "Damage". Gold Disc box & booklet, mint cond. played a few times. Bought new when it came out. Best offer. 2. MSFL "In The Court of The Crimson King" on vinyl. Original Master Recording. Mint cond. except for one small scratch at the beginning of Moonchild (doesn't last long). Best offer. e mail me not ET. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:31:30 -0700 From: Jason George Subject: Girl (elephant) talk Whatever sex the members of the band are has nothing to do with the musical genre they get classified as. Consider Renaissance, Gong, and Curved Air (whom I really like), all of whom had prominent female members. There's also a Japanese band whom I haven't had the pleasure of hearing yet called (?) Byo ko ran which is a female trio which plays KC/ELP music. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:04:58 -0400 From: Ron Harding Subject: RE: Girl (elephant) talk > Jennifer Gray writes: > > Just a question. Could Crimso ever have a woman member and > be accepted as "prog"? Sure. There's lot of precedant. Renaissance wouldn't be Renaissance without Annie Haslam. Anglagard, Anekdoten, Gong and Magma all have women as important members. I'm sure there are lots more, but I can't think of them right now. But certainly women are a minority in the business, just as they are in fandom. - Ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:59:47 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Earthbound; Fripp and Eno I. Regarding Elston's comments on "Earthbound" and "USA", that they should not be released, I would like to make the same suggestion to him that I made to others in these pages some time back: if these albums are so terrible that others should not want them (and indeed should not have the music available to them) can we then assume that you are willing to sell your copies? No, these albums are not the "best" of KC, but they are part of KC's history, and I'm hanging on to (and even giving an occassional listen to) my copies. II. John asks about Fripp's relationship with Eno. Fripp and Eno remain friends despite (perhaps even because of?) their decission not to continue to record fully collaborated albums together. "The Essential Fripp and Eno" contains some abandoned recordings made after "Evening Star", but clearly their interests have evolved to a place where full collaboration is not probable (by FULL collaboration, I'm excluding projects like "Nerve Net") in the future. Currently, Eno is primarily interested in creating music for his various gallery projects (see EnoWeb for details). Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:11:21 -0700 From: tanigawa at cadence dot com (Michael Tanigawa) Subject: RE: Gordon Haskell absence on Frame By Frame The "Epitaph" booklet says all of that, but does not state the reason Haskell's performances were removed. The reason could not have been ability. It is true that "Lizard" and "Islands" suffered from the relative inexperience of Haskell and Boz as bass players. However Boz was not excised from the two "Islands" tracks that appear on "Frame By Frame". I believe that the only explanations for singling out Gordon are (a) the "royalties" issue and/or (b) personal dislike. As an aside, the historical record (which is largely from Fripp's own notes) suggests that the attitude of the "Islands" band members was the most negative of all editions of the group. This view is supported by a 1976 Bad Company interview in which Boz describes Fripp as "sitting on his stool" scowling at the band while Mel Collins destroyed a mellotron. One gets the impression however that this era is now remembered fondly by all who were there. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 11:12:42 -0700 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: A little paranoia keeps us on our toes >> Stop the persecution of Bill Gates and Microsoft! >> http://www.moral-defense.org/ Nik Green wrote: >Well this may be wildly off topic, but by including that >last URL (see above), I'm sure Eric was trying to lay some >bait, and I would be amazed (and supremely disappointed) if >nobody else responds! [ Note -- any further correspondence on this topic to be on private email, please, not to ET. Thanks. -- Toby ] Actually, it just happened to be in my sig file that day. It was sent to all of the dozens of people I sent mail to. Usually I have a quote in my sig file, but the day I posted, I happened to use that one. No bait intended, just a word to the wise. >I have been a subscriber to E.T for >about a year, and have been listening to King Crimson's >music since I first saw them in Hyde Park in 1969. Anyone >interested in this group, including myself, must surely be >abundantly aware of Fripp's interest in business matters as >well as music. He has been very public in his dealings with >the world of corporate entertainment, and his horror stories >from interfacing with an industry which is, to put it very >gently, "founded on exploitation, oiled by deceit, riven >with theft and fuelled by greed". There was a brief discussion of Ayn Rand on the list a couple of years ago, and Toby appropriately deemed it off-topic. Since you make specific comparison to Fripp's business views, I'll respond, but for the sake of the list please try to keep discussion of non-ET matters off of ET. If anyone wants to continue a more detailed discussion via private e-mail, I'd be happy to oblige. >Now Eric presents us all >with a link to the "moral defense of Microsoft" and Ayn >Rand, whose agendas are to mislead us into thinking that >"Government" and "Big Business" are separate entities, and >that free enterprise and capitalism are synonymous. Government and big business *are* separate entities when they're not in bed with each other. In other words, some companies rely on government force and favors to restrict their competitors so they can get market shares they wouldn't be able to get through real competition. Microsoft is not and has never been one of those companies. Whether or not you like its business practices, it has always competed without government assistance, and recently has had to compete with government actively attempting to destroy it. >Free >enterprise, with a modicum of control (anti-trust) is the >cornerstone on which our (relatively) free western society >is based. In stark contrast, the capitalism of Rand is where >survival of the biggest and the law of the jungle hold >absolute sway, and the only things that count are size and >the ability to control and manipulate, by fair means or >foul. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that "real >democracy", (just like "real communism") does not and cannot >exist in practise, in a world increasingly under the control >of a global corporate feudal system, where "Big Business" is >unpoliceable, unapproachable, unrepresentative and has no >effective enemies or challenge. > >My point being, if the trend towards absolute corporate >tyranny, as advocated by Ayn Rand and his cronies, >continues, where all effective media outlets are under the >tight control of a few mega-transnationals, then the music >of King Crimson (and most definitely the business ideals of >Robert Fripp) would be be considered by the powers- that-be >(a)"not worth the time and investment because of it's >comparative unprofitability", or (b) verboten/censored on >account of it's dangerous and subversive nature. Similarly, >would not this be the case for all independent artistic, >cultural and aesthetic thought and expression at odds with, >or not approved by some unelected cartel? Somehow I get a >feeling of deja vu. I wonder why? First, you obviously know nothing of Rand or her views. This is particularly evident since you refer to her as "him" above. Second, Rand was in favor of laws barring the use of force and fraud. This means she was in favor of laws barring "exploitation," "deceit," and "theft." While some people accuse her of supporting the notion of "greed," this is incorrect. She was an advocate of "rational self-interest," meaning that one should work toward achieving one's own values and goals, while allowing others the same freedom. Fripp's view of what business should be is entirely consistent with Rand's. Third, there is no such thing as corporate tyranny. In order for someone to be tyrannical, they need to utilize force against others. The only way corporations can exercise this kind of force is when government makes it possible. Government is the *potential* agent of tyranny. Business is not. Fourth, in Rand's novel _The Fountainhead_, the protagonist, a brilliant architect, spent much of the book near starving because he would not work for corporate architecture firms. Why not? Because they wouldn't let him design buildings his way. After a long, hard struggle, he founded his own architectural firm because this was the only way he could design buildings that stayed true to his own vision. Hardly a ringing endorsement of big business controlling art. Rand advocated integrity of the individual. This includes artistic integrity. She wouldn't have opposed the existence of large music corporations, as long as they acted ethically (i.e., no force or fraud). But she also would have loved Fripp's small, mobile, intelligent company that provides a way for artists to release music their own way. Fifth, for those of you who think antitrust laws are beneficial, try reading this: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa021.html This is all I will write on the subject in ET. Replies by private e-mail, please. Eric D. Dixon http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6072/ "Forcing Microsoft to include Netscape's competing software in our operating system is like requiring Coca-Cola to include three cans of Pepsi in every six-pack it sells." -- Bill Gates ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:13:46 -0700 From: jim_bricker at filemaker dot com (Jim Bricker) Subject: FOUND - The Great Deceiver If there are any ETers out there who haven't yet purchased the now out-of-print 4 CD TGD set, I've found an unopened copy at a local shop. Price is $62.99 plus tax. I'd be happy to purchase and then mail to an ET'er in need. Email me personally, and let's work out the details. regards, Jim Bricker San Jose, CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:44:33 PDT From: "Manuel Fernandez" Subject: KC and Gabriel schedule conflict? All hail the Red Monarch and his court of pachyderm vocals! In response to ETers who fear that the club idea is going to take too much of El Frippo's time, time wich could be invested in new double-trio music, don't sweat it! It was going to be a while anyway, IMHO. When Peter Gabriel (finally!) puts out his new record, probably a full scale world tour will follow, and Tony Levin will be onboard for most, if not all of it. Now, if the PG record comes out on, say, December (don't ask me, I'm not informed), then the tour would take most of next year, depending on how big it will be. But next year is also the tentative time for a new double-trio offspring, after all the ProjeKcts and personal engagements are done. Of course, new KC music will demand the involvement of Tony, who won't be available most of the time. So, I fear that: a) Fripp will postpone all double-trio intercourse until after all the Gabriel fornication is done. Or b) Fripp prescinds of TLev (Nooo!!!), or uses him as bass whore between tour breaks. I'm aware that this conflict has arised in the past, probably during the discipline-era band, so I'm sure they will work something out if that happens. If Fripp decides to pospone the thing, then there's all the time he needs for the DGM club, the projecKts and some new soundscaping, plus the 30th anniversary procedures (whatever they might be) and Tony would be free to finish his Gabriel appointments. Everyone happy! But most probably, I might be just sucking the winds of paranoia! Sorry, Toby, for the long post. Manuel. "I have a message to deliver to the cute people of the world. ...If you're cute, or maybe you're beatiful...there's MORE OF US UGLY MOTHER%$&*#~@ OUT THERE THAN YOU ARE!! So watch out." -Frank Zappa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:40:27 -0700 From: "C.J. Hobba" Subject: Re: Girl (elephant) Talk > "Just a question. Could Crimso ever have a woman member and > be accepted as "prog"?" Just a quick reply, Sure, why not. Other "prog" bands had female members. Renaissance, Frumpy & Savage Rose, to name a few. No doubt some readers are grinding their teeth to dust over this one but I think it would make a interesting addition. The obvious choice would be Toyah Wilcox but who else could also fit the bill? Consider this if you will. Fripp soundscapes with additional texturing by Belew. Hellish groove by Leving & Gunn. Some tribal drum play by Bruford & Mastelotto. All capped off with heavenly arias supplied by Lisa Gerrard. Now that would be an album that I would love to see. Keith Hobba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 12:31:55 -0500 From: Mike Sansom Subject: Desperately seeking Toyah I'm in need finding a copy of Fripp & Toyah's "The Lady or the Tiger?" (or any other interesting poetry/readings over music/Frippertronics), might anyone be willing to sell or offer suggestions? Please email me, Thanks, Mike ( msansom at kslaw dot com ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 15:09:15 PDT From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: live KC Montreal to those who love live video recordings as much as i do. recently while channel surfing my primestar digital sattelite system i came across an interesting discovery. there is a channel known as "Much music" this channel broadcasts from canada and closes its broadcasting day at 4pm on weekdays. while watching this channel 2 weeks ago i caught a broadcast of Le Spectrum show from the "Absent Lovers" CD. this was so far the best thing ever to be found on this new system. however since their day ends at 4 pm and the show only started at 4:45 pm i only caught the opening credit/enry of the crims and half of Thela Hun Ginjeet. If any body has any news regarding this live show and broadcast please let me know ( my net address is listed above). thanks Alfred Dodson ( the waiting Man) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 15:05:06 -0400 From: "Louis Courteau" Subject: GIG REVIEW: CGT au Pub Saint-Alexandre, Quebec, June 26, 1998 Having seen CGT open KC's Thrak concert a few years back, we already knew they would be fun to watch from up close. So we reserved a table for two for supper 90 minutes before showtime. The food was quite palatable and the house wine was good. This was the first of three free concerts in Pub Saint-Alexandre. CGT played a set on Place d'Youville's exterior stage at 8:00 p.m. and were starting in PSA two hours later. Not too many showed up in the rain for the early set, but PSA was already jam-packed when Hideyo, Paul and Bert came in with their guitars, did a quick sound-check and went up for a short break before starting at 10 sharp. Then we had a brilliant demonstration of quite a few Guitar Craft techniques: tuning by resonance (tuner plays a couple of notes, lets them resonate for about 5 seconds and asks for his neighbour's assent); a moment of concentration before starting each piece; and great ensemble playing. Bert Lams usually plays the upper voices and it appears he may be a bit of a leader: he took care of mixing with David Singleton for the Pathways album at least and is the author of some of the arrangements, along with Stan Funicelli, who does not receive enough credit IMO. Being a Belgian, Bert was also charged of presentations: if you're Belgian, people here suppose you speak French fluently; but a lot of Flemish persons know but a few words of French, just like a lot of Quebecois can't speak English. So presentations were kept to a very strict minimum: no credit whatsoever to authors or arrangers, and only one song was presented by name. Hideyo Moriya takes care of the difficult tenor parts. His composure on stage is very Frippian and his playing has a lot of clarity and precision. Very impressive. Paul Richards is the "bass player" of the group. He also takes cares of soundscapes parts, which were unfortunately barely audible. He obtains a Frippian sustain by placing some kind of a matted disk on his guitar (to block resonance) and holding a little black box in his right hand (probably a small speaker) to generate distortion. His smiling eyes are always searching out for other eyes to play with. He's having a ball playing and it shows. The repertoire alternates sure-fire classics, from Beethoven's Fifth (1st movement), which reminded me of Larry Coryell's treatment of Stravinsky ballets, to Mason Williams's Classical Gas (which Mason used to play alone on a classical guitar) and Ventures tunes, to the wonderful rendition of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor (sounds like the Crimson King's kapellmeister playing the Regal Harpsichord), with anonymous originals that deserve a better fate than that of cushions between widely known pieces. For example, playing that Moonlight Sonata is a waste of time. At best, it sounds like a harpsichord again, but you need the nuances of a pianoforte and the small hesitations before almost every note to make that piece sound like anything else than a musak version of a too-often-heard classic. I much prefer the serene and authentic tranquillity of Arroyo and the guitar craft shown in Pathways and Great Divide. But no grumpy critic could have deprived us of the sheer enjoyment of this happening as a whole. The performance was commanding and the crowd very receptive. We were gratified with four encores, the third one being an unplugged version of a witty blues in five from the second album (I can't remember its Japanese title) where everyone really had to clam it up to hear the unamplified trio standing between tables three feet from us. I heard CGT had much less time to build their third album and prepare the accompanying tour than they'd had for the previous two. It can be heard at times in the album (a couple of takes could have been redone a bit better), but the magic is there on stage. A must-see, preferably in a small venue. Happy trails, CGT! louis loco at caractera dot com PS: bad news hit QC today: P2's July 9 show is cancelled due to poor advance ticket sales. Goodbye, front-row seat! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:10:36 -0400 From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: CGT @ Borders in Paramus NJ On the 4th of July I caught CGT at the Borders in the Paramus mall in NJ. First of all, it was for those present (maybe 20 people or so) an excellent place to catch CGT. Small, casual, comfortable: really a great place to see these guys (although a talk afterwards with bert lams indicated that such venues are frequently less than ideal for performers). Their compositions are certainly maturing, growing towards abstract, asymmetrical tunes of suprising complexity that nevertheless rock hard at times: a vocubulary that may actually be sufficient to express some of the emotional complexity that is often experienced here at the end of the 20th century. Meanwhile their exploration of Beethoven in this context is strangely appropo, and i think somehow touches upon some of old B's original intent. It reminds me of the recent Eliot Gardiner's "reinterpretations" of the 9 symphonies. But the acoustic nature of this music is such that you kind of have to quiet down your soul in order to listen properly. Not seeing them as a warm-up band for KC is a big help, having a relaxed venue also helps too. But the frequent changes and eclectic nature keeps you on your toes. Oh yeah -- Tony Geballe also played some music of astounding beauty, in particular his interpretation of a turkish Sufi dance tune was fantastic. Also, the last tune he played (from his album) was a quiet shower of multicolored flaming spheres. In all, there was bout 1.5 hours of music, and it was FREE. Go check them out, and bring a lady friend. Perhaps of interest to a very small percentage of ET readers is the fact that my parents showed up (the gig was 10 minutes near their house, and in a mall). They loved it! This is no small feat (particularly pleasing my father), and is of great imprtance to me. My father is a professional musician (met my mother at the Eastman School), considered by many to have acheived just about all that can be achieved by a trombonist (in addition to being a member of the orchestra at the Metropolitan Opera, he has played with just about anyone you can name in the classical world, and in addition he has performed with his idols Ellington, Armstrong, Ray Charles, Ornette Coleman, and many others). Despite this success, in recent years the cynacism he has always expressed about the music business has crept out into his view of life as a whole. I guess this could be called despression. Over the years, i have read to him Fripp's writings, which he has viewed (or else pretended to view) with great scepticism: how could a "rock star" (the ultimate tool of the corporate music system) have experienced the same things he himself has? Nevertheless, Fripp's writings about the music busines bear an uncanny resemblance to the frequent "rantings" of my dad. But more importantly, I have sensed that the establishment of DGM was for old Fripp sort of a response to a similar type of cynacism seeping in. I have read my dad Fripp's writings so that he might witness another man (successfully?) struggle to move beyond the dog-eat-dog vision of life that many of us have been duped into believing is "real". What i mean is, maybe the problem with many sectors of life on this planet is that we have accepted as "real" a vision of life that actually benefits the small souls of those in power. If we can just look past this "reality", perhaps we can manifest a better one in some small way. But this requires a certain amount of faith in something that is not immediately visible, and that may be inherently distasteful to "practical" men. But Fripp at least seems to be giving this a shot, and having as students guys who have obviously "done thier homework" and "woodshedded" speaks volumes more than anything that can be said, and is sure to cause the ol' codger to listen all the more carefully next time I read him some of Fripp's liner notes. So for me this CGT/Tony Geballe gig was of particular significance. -Emory ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #519 ********************************