Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #517 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 517 Saturday, 4 July 1998 Today's Topics: Elephant Talk - Guestbook Ode to Absent Lovers Re: in-dash record players Re: NEWS: New survey, and results in for #4 and #5 Gordon Haskell absence on Frame By Frame structure/improve survey Absend Lovers re: Survey methodology Damage availability Re: BLUE oddity Absent Lovers and a questions Re In-dash Record Players M.Brook site / "Damage" The Place of Prog, Crim, and Soul Coughing Damage Sighting... "Old" Material; Improvisation in P2 The Golden Rulea Another Toyah sighting Fripp, Inc. - Un-Disciplined? Cardboard Packaging More Prog Grok Further questions about copying. GIG REVIEW: Projekct 2 in Boston, reviewed (long, sorry) GIG REVIEW: P2 @Sommerville GIG REVIEW: P2 in Somerville, MA GIG REVIEW: p2 in vermont and northampton mass ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:11:19 -0700 From: "Art/Joel" Subject: Elephant Talk - Guestbook I didn't see any sort of guestbook listed but I HAD to tell someone that my copy of KING CRIMSON Live In Japan (VHS) just came and I LOVE IT!!! Joel Constantian at Rocketmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:59:56 EDT From: KB305 at aol dot com Subject: Ode to Absent Lovers Dear Syd: I Please wait while the transformation of King Crimson into the Grateful Dead is in process... (insert Windows blue bar graphic here) II (a) I don't mean anything other than the socio-political transmogrifications attendant to the actualization of their Crimsonness, and the application of what their experiences have taught them. They'll never play 'Dark Star', but 'Thrak' is just as good. Except for the fact that 33% of the group is British, and they don't take drugs, other than strong coffee and alcohol, I'd say the procedure is coming along nicely. Let me count the ways: (1) They've effectively divested themselves of the record industry, except perhaps of a comet-trail of Virgin debris (into every life a little Arista must fall); they've learned that they can do it all themselves (or with a tiny staff) and thus control Net, keeping it nearer to Gross; (2) They've formed their 'fractal units', the effective lubricant against 'musical differences'; (3) They've started rehashing and rereleasing their recorded work, especially live (B'Boom, Night Watch, Absent Lovers, ThrakAttak = Without a Net, Two From the Vaults, Dick's Picks Volume n [where n is an integer from 1 to 1000], Infrared Roses); (4) Fripp has donned his mantle of inscrutability in a way that, while it does not resemble Jerry, it certainly has as much personality (or corresponding lack thereof), wherein he reveals himself by showing us where he hides; on the other hand, if anyone believes the guitarist to be the leader of the band, they have some learning in their future. (5) The rest of the band (or rather, THIS band-- after all, personnel changes are just Darwin in action--) has matured into an excellently eccentric bunch. (b) The only large difference is of course that Crimson are not likely during this life to learn any of what would be called 'standards'. While the Dead would whip out the American folk tune or 60s-70s era rock vehicle nearly every set, I can't see the Crims doing 'Dear Mr Fantasy' or 'When I Paint My Masterpiece'. Perhaps they could go to the high road, and cover some nice arrangements of Bartok or Ligeti. The audience will think it's 'Drums' and 'Space'. (c) Next up: formation of a club to release their cherished archival recordings (including one of Ade belching into his MIDI controller for 25 minutes at the Bournemouth Home of the Criminally Insane-- THAT was an OUTRAGE!). To cement the process, they should soon start up the ticket lottery machine. This of course predicates their touring, which I would welcome and drive toward. Perhaps KC should do a tour opening for the Other Ones. Instant access to the star-maker machinery behind the unpopular song. III O blessed cacaphony! O ugliness! O wrenching twised plane-crashing twiddles unleashed by the controllers of Roland! O fruited and teeming Indiscipline! I do think it's good! And dig the textures in the gaps between the phrases in Red! They speak their names to me, and they are all called Frenzy. O scraping, plonking, farting, blooping, ring-modulated bell-tone! It was to weeping I turned when I heard the stacked fourth voicings and complementary whoops of 'Matte Kudasai'; 'as you like', indeed. I felt I knew them. O mighty throb of deftly touched strings! O the confusion of the drums, real, and unreal, simultaneous! Now on to Disc Two! deeply felt, and I mean it, K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:27:54 -0400 From: tonyola Subject: Re: in-dash record players David Steimling wrote in ET#515: > Just a note about the in-dash turn-table...I dont think > the in-dash turntable was around in '47, so I doubt that > is how Motorola got thier name...I Chrysler Corp. offered an in-car turntable called the Highway HiFi during the latter half of the 1950s. This was a dealer-installed unit mounted underneath the dashboard. It could not play any standard phonograph records. Instead, one had to play records specifically designed for the unit, and these records could not be played on a regular phonograph. The Highway HiFi records had deeper-than-normal grooves and a special needle in order to reduce skipping on rough roads. Even so, reports indicated that the needle would stay in the grooves only on the smoothest of roads. Therefore, Chrysler didn't sell very many of these units, and couldn't get the major record companies interested in pressing any significant quantity of records specifically for the Highway HiFi. Tony Evans Olasongs Coral Gables, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:56:30 EDT From: "Dave Lane" Subject: Re: NEWS: New survey, and results in for #4 and #5 DanKirkd at aol dot com wrote: > The results are in on the Structured vs. Improvised survey. > No huge surprise here with structured Crimson material > winning decisively. That's only because those of us who prefer improvised are not inclined to answer surveys. --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:18:42 -0400 From: "A. Moulin" Subject: Gordon Haskell absence on Frame By Frame ETers Just a quick note on the Gordon Haskell overdubs on Frame by Frame. My sneaking suspicion is that Gordon was removed from the tracks on account of a Royalties dispute. I seem to remember reading in liner notes to something (perhaps the Epitaph set?) that Fripp had no ill feeling borne against himself by other members of any former version of KC or vice versa--with the exception of Gordon Haskell who was upset over a Royalties dispute. Mainly, if I remember correctly, Gordon believed he was entitled to Royalties for In the Wake of Poseidon, Fripp and EG did not. Hence, he may have been removed from Frame by Frame in order to avoid more difficulties. I could certainly be wrong, but I'm sure I remember reading this somewhere--I'll check my papers at home. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:35:50 -0700 (PDT) From: David McMillan Subject: structure/improve survey Hi All, Long time no post. I wanted to respond and perhaps shed some light in regards to the recent survey result (structure wins) and the low percentage of ETers who voted. This also has a lot to do with frequently occurring threads about things like which incarnation is favoured. For some time I pondered the survey question and decided I couldn't answer. I don't prefer either over the other. The same applies to the era debate. In fact, I tend to view each of the KC incarnations as separate bands, each with their own style, nuances and strengths. As for some of the other survey questions, such as best track or best RF work, I just entered the first thing that came to me. Well, picking one out of so many is not terribly difficult, even if it turns out to be a spontaneous or random thing. However, to choose between improv and structure was impossible. My preference is structure with imrov in the middle, but you can't do that every time! David McMillan Scripps Institution of Oceanography La Jolla, CA 92093-0225 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:30:52 -0700 From: Frank Pfau Subject: Absend Lovers Hello ETers: I recently aqcuired Absent Lovers and I must say I'm very impressed! No wait, ecstatic! This, comming from someone who aqcuired the boot on vinyl in 88, the Japan 84 video in 85, The Noise video in 90 etc... Needless to say, I'm a big fan of the 80's line up. It's my favorite...by far! What a show. What a recording. If you like the 80's lineup - this is a must have! The highlights are too numerous and intense for a fan such as myself to mention. So I won't. I remember reading about all of the previous DGM KC concert releases and moaning to myself -"When?...When will a show from MY lineup be released?" And now it has and I'm no longer the Waiting Man - that is of course - until the DGM club starts... Peace, Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:20:51 -0500 From: John Verkuilen Subject: re: Survey methodology In ET #515 earl grey tj dumela at nicom dot com wrote: I did a little math. ET has over 5000 "readers" now. The survey question on Free Form vs. Structured brought 273 replies and the About yourself query was a bit higher at 302. Using the 5000 number these are response rates of 5.5 and 6.0 percent. That's _real_ lousy, perhaps absurd to rely on. [...] Here I'd have to give as my professional opinion a big "It depends." Rather than leaving it at that, I'll explain what I mean. (I have an MS in Statistics so I think it is fair to say "in my professional opinion." And I seem to have a semi-masochistic need to explain statistical concepts when they aren't quite right. Just so you know. :) A 5% response rate is not problematic given an adequate sample size if the sampling scheme is random. In fact, most statistical inference techniques are derived under the assumption of an infinite population, so obviously any finite sample will be 0% of the population no matter how large it is! And there are no infinite populations, either, so you might correctly say that none of our results hold, but they hold well enough. Variance formulas, which are the ones that get messed up by finite populations, can be adjusted to account for variance shrinkage in a finite population. Failing to adjust makes inferences overly *conservative*, however, giving error rates lower than the nominal error, say, 2% when the nominal error rate is 5%. So you can't really complain about this aside from calling it wasteful. But the problem I think the original poster was getting at is selection bias, which is not fixed by using finite population adjustments. When you have selection bias, there is some mechanism that sorts people who respond to your sample from those who do not. It may well be that this sorting mechanism, even if you don't care about it in particular (and you might) is correlated with other important variables, leading to underrepresentation of one group and, necessarily, overrepresentation of another, giving a biased sample. Depending on what you want to do this can be a disaster. The textbook example was the first predictive survey used to call a US presidental election, done in 1936 by the Literary Digest. IIRC, it used a sample of its readership--much more affluent than the general person in the middle of the Great Depression and, hence much more likely to be Republican--to predict a win for Alf Landon, the Republican candidate. FDR won by a landslide. There is only one way to guarantee a complete, unbiased sample--take a census. That is, survey the entire population. In practice this is almost never done and there is generally no point. Taking a random sample smaller than a census--often radically smaller depending on what you are trying to measure and how much error you are willing to accept--gives you measurements with quantifiable error rates, that is, confidence levels. In fact, taking a census or too large of a sample is often COUNTERproductive because with a smaller sample you can take much better care to administer the survey with smaller groups than with larger groups (tell that to the Republicans, though--upshot: Congress critters should leave statistics to the statisticians if they don't know jack-shit about it). There are a lot of subtleties of sampling methodology, though, and random samples are often not good choices, particularly when you care about something that occurs relatively infrequently, particularly if conjunctions of several variables are important. But this depends on what you want to do with the information. Surveys with voluntary response are probably not random and here the only way to get a decent idea of the characteristics of the population is either to have a sample that is very comprehensive (as the original poster suggests) or a pretty good guess of how nonresponse occurs. Even then, things can be quite tricky and, depending on what you want to do, even a 95% response rate may not be enough. Depending on what you want to do, this information may well be enough. You may not care about having a representative picture of your population as a whole. For instance, restaurant comment cards are definitely not representative of the population of diners, but that's not the point. The idea is to sample the extreme responses, good or bad. Reading through 900,000 "It was OK" cards is useless to both the business and the consumers, when what management really needs is to read the "My steak really, really sucked," or "My waiter Bob Wysnewski did a bang-up job." Also, even if the sample is biased, it may be the only one you can obtain in practice or even in theory. The bottom line: no simplistic rules of thumb hold. But in general the size of the sample or the response rate itself is much less important than the way in which the sample was gathered. A huge biased sample will not give unbiased estimators of population parameters, ever, but you might not care. Unfortunately, people like to grab onto rules of thumb with which they think they can judge categorically the quality or lack thereof of a piece of research. The problem is these sorts of things err an enormous amount of time. It is simply not the case that a small sample is useless but I've heard fairly intelligent people state "you should never believe a study with a sample size less than 30" when (a) it might be OK to use a sample this small and (b) it might well be a completely stupid move that gives total crap for results. So what does this mean for ET surveys? First of all, ET surveys should be considered to be in the "for fun" category and not taken very seriously anyway. ;) But they are not representative samples, so you cannot validly generalize to the whole population of ET readers (probably a rather unusual population in any event!) from this because the way that the sample differs from representativeness is unknown. Does it mean that the survey results are useless? Not at all. Our own private curiosities aside--not to be ignored because that's the whole point of the surveys in the first place--DGM might find out that there is a demand for something they have that they didn't think of on their own. Customer feedback is useful even if it doesn't meet the highest standards of statistical inquiry and doesn't provide generalizations to the population. Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:49:12 +0300 From: "Jarmo Muukka" Subject: Damage availability I am the lucky one. I got Damage 29.5.1995. Damage may be the best album I've ever heard. I do not usually listen live records much, but this I do. I don't understand why people cannot buy it today. Virgin, let people buy what they want! JMu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:56:53 +0300 From: "Jarmo Muukka" Subject: Re: BLUE oddity >From: Matthew Nolan >Very recently received my copy of B.L.U.E. from DGM. I've >only listened to it through a couple of times so far, but >I'd have to give it a definite thumbs up. >Something's strange though - it seems to disable the track >skip buttons on my in-car player (and not just for track >I expect this is more of a bug in my player than something >on the CD (although, undoubtedly something about the CD is I noticed this problem too. I wanted to listen track 9 (Thick with Thin Air) in car stereos of my brother. This track has very much low frequencies. He has big subwoofer in his car. Actually I don't like the balance of the sound in his car. I could not select tracks nor fast forward. This means that the problem is on the CD - not in the player. In my home stereos the track is a killer. I must be careful not to play that track too loud. Subwoofer handles it well, but with main speakers I have to be carefull. Main speakers goes quite down for being small in size. Track has so much bass that bass woofer moves so much that it is near it's capacity. Huh, this was very difficult to tell in english because I didn't have all the words I needed, hope you understand. JMu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:49:48 +0100 From: "mark" Subject: Absent Lovers and a questions First of all I must say that Absent Lovers is an incredible album. I liked the '80s stuff (I had just discovered KC in general as it was coming out) but this sheds a whole new light on it. Am I right in remembering coments on this list that the '84 stuff was not as good as '81 live - in which case I hope there are plans to release '81 live stuff as part of the DGM club. My question regards the release of B.L.U.E in the uk. Doe's anyone know the release date? I got the impression from the postcard DGM sent me that it was coming out at the same time as Absent Lovers. BTW - if you haven't got 'Damage' keep searching. Don't let 'First day' fool you, while an excellent record it is not a patch on 'Damage' - which in places really could be an incarnation of KC (albeit one that didn't happen) cheers mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:38:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Troy ><> Fisher" Subject: Re In-dash Record Players Moderately off-topic,, biut astoundingly interesting. For those of you who haven't come across eBay (http://www.ebay.com) You just have. It's an on-line auction area, where you can get ANYTHING if you are willing to participate in an auction. If you search completed auctions for an under-dash record player, you will probably come up with one that was sold last month for over $1000. It was a Plymouth player from the 40's, whihc probably sold as options to the venerable Street Rod and relatd models. The set include original mounting brackets, AND 37 of the 45 special-format discs which were made for the player. Trivia.....useless, but fun. Troy Fisher Fisher9 at tcnj dot edu www.tcnj.edu/~fisher9 Computer Science Class of 2001 "We never do details," Franx replied. "Because we don't care if our equations are correct. It's how they FEEL that counts." -Rudy Rucker, White Light Programming: The struggle between programmers trying to create bigger and better idiot proof programs and the Universe trying to create bigger and better idiots. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:27:58 +0400 From: "Sergei Kantere" Subject: M.Brook site / "Damage" Friends, Firstly, many thanks to everyone who took time to answer my query about Soul Coughing. I think I'll be ordering a copy. Socondly, in case you missed it, great Michael Brook site called Breakdown was mentioned in ET516. In view of recent speculations regarding why "Damage" is a limited edition, consider this clip from Breakdown: <...> Only a few thousand copies were pressed before it was withdrawn. Robert Fripp was responsible for mixing the tapes, but David Sylvian found them unacceptable and pulled the album. Breakdown correspondent Craig Jennings has this to say about Damage: "<...> I was immensely disappointed in the mixing of the original tapes. Performances of many of the pieces <...> are made sublime by Brook's playing. Yet these parts were ruthlessly suppressed in the studio mixing <...>, making them sound muddy and unclear. "Apparently, Fripp was largely responsible for all post-production on the album, which may explain why his guitar tracks are prominent on every piece. Sylvian has said he is quite dissatisfied with the way the album was mixed, and would like to remix the tapes himself at some point in the future." Please go and see unabridged version at the URL www.columbia.edu/~co61/brook . I wonder what the sources are? For me, Damage works _much_ better than the First Day, and (almost) as well as the Live in Japan video, which I have a pirate copy of. It should be interesting to compare sound on Damage and LiJ more closely, since it seems that neither David Sylvian nor Craig Jennings have anything against the latter. I'll try to do it when the time permits and post my opinion both here and on newly conceived Michael Brook list. Best, Sergei Kantere Moscow, Russia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:57:30 -0700 From: "S. Winant" Subject: The Place of Prog, Crim, and Soul Coughing I wanted to chime in briefly on the whole "is prog progressive?" thread. Lest we forget, it's the wonderful (sarcasm) music media machine that not only invented "prog" the label but later vilified it first as punk blew prog out of the mainstream in the '70's and later in the '80's as a general/generational rejection of all the whole late-'60's/early-'70's cultural milieu. Over the last few months I helped teach a course on popular music at the university level, and as teaching assistant I was given a chance to give one lecture. Quite naturally, due to my love of Crim and other bands, I volunteered to talk about prog, and my lecture not only tried to place prog in some social/historical context but also defend it against not only media vilification but even MY PEERS who had largely bought into the media image of prog as "pompous"/"elitist"/etc. My point was that what makes prog "progressive" was and IS its distinctive combination of an explicit desire to experiment, a broad set of timbres/rhythms/forms/etc., a desire/need for instrumental skill, and a concern for theme and image that might not be found elsewhere in "popular" music. I'm not going to say that prog didn't go over the edge: ELP's take on Mussorgsky was an explicit attempt to "classicize" rock, and Yes' two-album "Tales from Topographic Oceans" is at the very least, well, LONG (possibly to excess). But prog--if we choose to accept the term at all--has continued to evolve. Its here I think that King Crimson stands out. "In The Court of the Crimson King" is different from "Lark's Tongues" is different from "Three of a Perfect Pair" is different from soundscapes is different from "Thrak" is different from Projekct 2. Anyone willing to follow all of these musical threads is using what I might call progressive THINKING (or progressive listening). And in the mean time, prog as it was the years ago has now spawned all sorts of interesting derivatives that might still be called prog: David Sylvian, Mick Karn, David Torn, Bill Laswell, Soul Coughing, even artists like Aphex Twin or Dead Can Dance. So prog is "progressive" because it is in its nature to explore, and the exploration continues. And if you want to explore, _I_ personally prefer Soul Coughing's first album "Ruby Vroom" cuz its got a bit more variety on it. Sorry if I sounded overly academic. Looking forward to responses. By the way, anyone interested in thinking about this stuff more should pick up "Listening To The Future: In The Time of Progressive Rock" by Bill Martin (Open Court, 1998). S. Louis Winant Ethnomusicology, University of Washington lwinant at u dot washington dot edu Son: "When I grow up, I want to be a musician." Father: "I'm sorry--you can't have it both ways." ...quoted by Garrison Keillor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:02:33 -0600 (CDT) From: Kevin Simonson Subject: Damage Sighting... Hi there... Vintage Vinyl in St. Louis MO has a copy of 'Damage' for what appears to be $9.99. -- Kevin Simonson Computer Science Graduate Program simonson at uis dot edu University of Illinois - Springfield Chapman Grand Stick Rosewood 1212 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:10:43 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: "Old" Material; Improvisation in P2 I. First of all, let me say that I am completely in favor of releases such as "Absent Lovers" and of the DGM club. That being said, those who object to such releases do have one good point: they may indeed, in some small way, delay the release of new material. It is simply a question of time. If Mr Fripp is working on older material, he has less time to concentrate on new material, particularly as he prefers to concentrate on one thing at a time. This being said, we must ask if we want just any new Crimson material, or if we want the best material the double trio is capable of. If the answer is the former, then yes, the recent older concert material is perhaps problematic. If the answer is the later (and for me it is) then it's going to take them a good long time anyway, so we might as well enjoy some newly released recordings from past-Crimsons (not to mention Soundscapes, which I know some object to for the same reason: He should be working on Crimson!) while we wait. II. While P2 is still improvising, at this point I believe the improvisation is much like, for example, the improvs on "Absent Lovers": done within "song" structures. As I said in my review of the Chicago concerts, the "songs" were pretty much the same both nights, and in the recent report from MA it sounded as if the basic structures of the music have remained the same. This, then, is the "development" from the "research": slowly these themes will transform into KC "songs." Or at least that's my guess .... Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:14:37 -0400 From: "RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR." Subject: The Golden Rulea Observations and considerations regarding the concerns of bootlegging, Fripp's refusal to play through flash photography and all other situations involving confusion over cash and ethics, has prompted me to post what I assumed everyone deep down inside understood. Simply stated The Golden Rule. The Golden Rule is "He/she that has the gold makes the rules". This relationship is universal anywhere on Earth, always has been and always will. I take no exception to Mr. Fripp's ability to continue to identify his market and sell tickets under his conditions; this is creative freedom fully accountable by consumers. My money does not find it's way into Mr. Fripp's pocket by accident. Product, Price, Place and Promotion is an art in itself and I truly admire the differentiation offered by DGM and it's business practices. It is only through excellent business practices that ethics deserve to survive. I hand over my money and support that survival. The collusion of the music industry has stifled the mission of artists and consumers alike. CD's could sell at $2 each, a simple move along the demand curve reveals consumers would have the opportunity to explore more types of music and would enjoy an enhanced quality of life. However He/She that has the Gold prefers to gather Gold in the most efficient manner. Forget right or wrong the necessary action is to focus on reality, only then can a productive paradigm develop. Therefore the price of CD's remains high, artists and producers are forced to qualify their releases to justify the high price and consumers suffer the lack of availability of obscure recordings that can only be found on bootlegs. The existence of bootlegs has forced the industry to listen more to consumers and adapt by issuing the products once only found on these boots. Consumers Gold changed the rules, education and technology continues to bring the music industry to accountability. All to the benefit of the consumer. And the equilibrium rests in the balance of two forces, the consumer will not benefit from heartfelt appeals without understanding what those forces are. To Whom It May Concern: My personal consumer habits are influenced by my intense conservative political standpoint. I do not enjoy King Crimson boots because KC requires a high quality recording effort to satisfy my needs. I have complete faith in the principles of competition. I've supported myself since I left home at the age of 17 with only the shirt on my back, exploited through taxes and every application of the golden rule. I have very little reason to emotionally identify with the whinings of any millionaire artist that feels he has missed out on any opportunity to fullfill his power trip in becoming the richest musician. Give the people what they want. Having paid my way through two college degrees and establishing a successful investment business I tend to be very pragmatic and remain very fascinated at the simplicity and the intricacy of the universal pursuit of power and money (if there is a distinction). I have the greatest respect for entrepreneurs and artists (if there is a distinction). I have the greatest respect for the free enterprise system and it's ability to adapt and and become more human. I recognize government as the single largest enemy of mankind going into the future as their target markets are young idealists and morons, have no consumer accountability and therefore provide no environment to support ethics. What do you'all think? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:06:42 +0100 From: "Peter Thompson" Subject: Another Toyah sighting Hello all, Mrs Fripp has popped up in the unlikeliest place - Dictionary Corner on Countdown!! For non-British ETers Countdown is a daytime words and letters game. There is always a celebrity in 'Dictionary Corner' who checks the validity of words and comes up with the occasional aphorism or bon mot. I'll have a consonant please, Carole. Pete ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:33:42 -0500 From: John Barnas Subject: Fripp, Inc. - Un-Disciplined? Well, here it is Tuesday, June 30. There is a P2 show listed for next Sunday, PM July 5 in Buffalo, NY. That's 5 days away. Where is the show? Nobody knows as of today. Ticketmonster doesn't know. Toby doesn't know. My sister and all my cousins in Buffalo don't know. Here I thought I was going to get a chance to be a drooling ape one more time. I spent my 1st 18 years in snowy Buffalo and had planned to attend Pop's annual July 4th cook-out and was freaked when P2 "planned" a P2 show there on July 5th. And to top that excitement off, my lovely wife Mary even got up the nerve to attend and see what Johnny is drooling about. But, alas, no show- no news, etc. Several crimfellows, incl. Dave Kirkdorffer, were talking about how negligent DGM is on the DGM website. Is this a pattern forming here? Yes, I'm a bit upset. How hard would it be for somebody from Robert's, or Adrian's or Trey's management, if there even is anybody, to use the bloody telephone (or even email ET, for God's sake) to let us all know one way or another if a gig is happening? I don't care if I miss a show. The point is what is up with DGM? What is up with Robert? Is he the boss? Companies lose customers when service falters, even disciplined, detail-oriented, true-to-themselves companies. Is this an omen of what will become of the DGM record club? I'm starting to let my breath out on that idea. Robert, you owe me a personal apology. Not really- just kidding. But please see my point. Love y'all. JB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:57:54 EDT From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: Cardboard Packaging Along the lines of Gary Mayne's post on CD STORGANIZING: I work at a local college radio station and they store their CDs in these little vinyl/plastic clamshells. The CD goes in one side and has a little paper protector/cleaner. The booklet or whatever goes in the other side. It's clear so they can read the cover and they fit tons of 'em in their filing cabinets (a good thing, since they have over 10K titles in the library!). The older stuff is still in jewel cases, but they're converting these as they run out of room. I have to imagine that these sleeves are commercially available. If anyone is interested in this, I'll dig in deeper and find out a source for you. I'll probably check this out for myself anyway. Thrak On! Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:10:09 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: More Prog Grok In ET#516, p. little/n. green" furthered his thought: > In comparison, the overwhelming majority of bands who have > been categorized by the media/ corporate marketing > machinery as "prog", (and consequently lapped up by the > fans as such), cannot even be remotely described as > musically "moving forward". > but isn't it a touch ironic that so many current "prog" bands sound so dated?! No argument about the labeling. But those who stand in sequins also serve -- they may not know just how. Lao Tsu observed the non-horse is necessary for the horse to exist. To me, art/prog/blah was a conscious reaction to its precedents, punk more obviously the same. If this causality propels people's understanding of their relationship to music and performance, that's as much progress as I expect. In other words, it's a *good* thing they sound dated. BTW, I have a framing objection -- it's pop music, right? I'm not saying a Relevance Test isn't, um, relevant ... but best used with serious, concerted attempts to advance music/listener/performer understanding -- LaMonte Young, fr'instance, over Rick Wakeman. Not that you can't serve two masters at once (a floor wax! a dessert topping!), but it's a matter of reasonable degree. Most of This Stuff *was* deserving cannon fodder -- but lacking 20/20 vision (metaphorically or actually :-), I think it's unfair to hold the ruler of time against people locked within it. Their work, yeah -- but only as historical conceit disembodied from persona. (However, if one trades on that for profit or power -- well, OK, declare open season, I'll join you at the blind :-) The complimentary (in both senses) opined: > The problem is a changing audience, bringing changing > expectations and experiences to the work, and thus having > changing perceptions. And defined by prior experience. You can't break the cycle. When the Nostalgia Machine reposits "discredited" works as the flavor du jour, summoning "fresh" critique, Information Density drops to about zero: noise about noise about noise. And the inimitable Eb grumbled :-) > I don't understand why you're arguing on and on about prog > history and prog's influence on modern music. This is > off-topic. The initial issue was the vitality of > well-known prog bands today. I'm not arguing ad nauseum about a definition, I'm cautioning against the classic Western practice of trying to delineate something divorced from the delineator. Whether it's Manifest Destiny or a rack of mellotrons, we're not big on Cutting People Slack. (Subgenii excepted :-) Fr'instance, I just finished reading Ambrose's history of the Corps of Discovery -- the ability of so many brilliant people, in such pivotal circumstances, *not* to be compassionately in-the-moment, is astoundingly depressing. Not to mention projecting past roles into current context. Every minute we cram past relevance into current holes (or have this exercise thoughtfully provided by an "entertainment" conglomerate), we miss out on the truly contemporaneous: it's driving with the rear-view mirror. A robust past stays more alive when it's allowed to be dead. BTW, all this remains ON-topic because DGM's accelerating and unfortunate archive focus makes recycling these topics inevitable. Whether or not one consumes gussied-up artifacts, their mere presence fosters discussion, as tendentious as it was ten years ago or ten years from now. For related reasons, I'm not looking forward much to this listserv (or much of any media, for that matter) around the end of next year. :-) Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:27:07 -0700 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: Further questions about copying. Hi Crimpersons, So, as I understand what Steve Smith (ET 516) says about copying of recordings, he has 3 basic points: 1: The artist sells his recording or performance to the record label and the people at the label decide to sell the recording and set how it is legally available. 2. Legal equals right, and right equals legal, (this must be his point, because nowhere in my post did I mention the legal nature of any copying), and all copying is theft. 3. Casual theft is acceptable if there is a change of recording media, or a small run of copies, or no legal shenanigans with bank accounts. I would like to point out that on ET there are endless references to Fripp's own words about the performer finding the audience - this is, in fact, one of his stated aims for DGM. What I am asking is how does the audience that has been found respond when the music is no longer made available? It seems that many people are determined to copy. Is it then possible to do it in a right way or not? Is it always theft and people excuse it in some manner or another? Can the audience find a way to make the act of copying right? I say that the people in marketing (or whatever department), who decide that due to the limited market for a recording it is better to gouge the customers with an overpriced limited release, do not set what is wrong or right. Also, neither does the legality of an act determine that acts moral nature. You won't even get a lawyer to tell you that, and reading the writings of Fripp will show you instances where lawyers and the law were used to commit moral wrongs. John Ott says that to further release "Damage" would be a breach of his trust since he paid $30 for a Limited Edition. I'll bet that this is a non-issue in the industry. Money is the bottom line, and if Virgin thought that "Damage" would go platinum, they would release it. Fripp has taken a stand as to how he as a performer should respond to the industry and the marketplace. The question that arises is how should the audience respond to the same industry and marketplace. I see these questions as naturally arising out of Fripp's writings. In that way I think ET is the forum for the discussion. I am not trying to be a prig, I just think that these are issues that should be addressed. Peace, Kathryn Ottersten ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:50:17 -0700 From: Peter Shindler Subject: GIG REVIEW: Projekct 2 in Boston, reviewed (long, sorry) For your perusal, here are some of my stupid and irrelevent observations from the Projekct 2 show at the Somerville Theater on 6/28: The show consisted of 2 sets, each lasting about 40 minutes. It followed the same basic format that's been described in countless other reviews; lots of improv with some acoustic Adrian to break it up. They ended with the lounge-lizard take on VROOOM (I liked Trey's goofy sax riffs best). -Fripp was cooking, and he soloed more last night than he did on the entire THRAK tour put together, as well as playing some short Soundscapes. He was much more animated than I've ever seen him, and he was really moving around a lot (relatively speaking) and making funny faces at Adrian and Trey. Before the Vrooom finale, he said something like "Hey boys, it's Boston, let's rock the house!" loud enough to be heard without a microphone. -Adrian showed us a whole new bag of tricks. For the most part, his drumming was in-the-pocket and unintrusive, although this wasn't always the case. As always, he was the comic relief; several times he picked a bizarro effects patch, started playing, and kept looking at the silent Fripp and Gunn, trying in vain to get them to play something over his creation and laughing out loud when they didn't. He played the same songs that he did on the other shows, "Young Lions," "Men in Helicopters," "Dinosaur," and "Three of a Perfect Pair" (which seemed like the hardest thing in the world). -Trey Gunn was interesting to watch. My review for StickWire focused on his role as the most-unconventional touch-guitarist alive, but briefly, he was definitely a major part of the game, whether he was soloing, playing a chordal accompaniment, or even playing wacked-out Les Claypool-esque basslines. During the last piece in the second set, over a steady Belew rhythm and Fripp synth swells, he played a gorgeous lead that stood out as one of the best parts of the evening and drew extended applause from Fripp and the audience. Incidentally, he's cut his hair very short and looks much more grown-up. -I'm assuming that most of the music was improvised, and a lot of it really reminded me of ThrakAttak, which is both a compliment and a detriment. That album, in my mind, consists either of many brilliant moments hidden in long stretches of nonsense, or many moments of nonsense stuck in between long strecthes of brilliance (not sure which). Projekct 2 in concert is a lot like this- the three of them would be totally locked in, and the music would be flying by; then just as suddenly it would pass and we were left with 3 virtuoso musicians fucking around with effects settings and synth patches. This is obviously due to the highly improvisational nature, but I can't help comparing P2 with BLUE, which was also virtuosic, highly improvised, totally unpredictable, and similarly charged with the possibility of making real Music, but BLUE also managed to work all this into well-organized songs, with beginnings, middles, and endings. This isn't a complaint but it is a regret when I think about what this trio could sound like with more written material (I guess we'll find out later!) The only other aspect I'd find unfortunate is the boys' overuse of their synth patches. Fripp kept going back to a chiming sound that was cute at first but got irritating, while Belew was finding just a few too many weird sounds in his VDrums. And Trey was often matching Fripp's timbre, making it difficult to hear what he was doing. Again, not a complaint but a regret. A good time. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:07:46 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 @Sommerville Dear Eter's Well here it is almost a day following the P2 show at the Somerville Theater and I'm still recovering. The Stones were wrong, you can get some satisfaction! The venue: Old Theater, good acoustics, perfect size, great seats albeit a tad uncomfortable (this too I forgot about). The sound: Clear (100% better than Toad's) with some slight low resonance,but each instrument separated well. The show: I had such a good time at this show and apparently so did the band. They played with gusto throughout, although I thought the second set was notas strong as the first. Robert played ferociously and he beamed the muse with fingerboard dexterity, sound palette selection and a precise control/release that boggles the senses and the mind. Trey seemed a little more reserved than at the Toad's show but he stepped out and commanded my focus throughout the evening. He caresses and tortures his Warr in a sensual yet aggressive approach that forms a great balance for the Trio. Robert and Trey Soundscaped into two selections minus V-Drums and these openings were pastoral and provided a great counterpoint rest of the show. Close your eyes and your dreaming..... Adrian what can one say. V-Drummer extraodinare, acoustic troubadour, his humor shows through and shines, the heartbeat of this project. His skill as a percussionist and his great sense of timing were only outdone by his off beat tangents and flairs that were as impressive if not, more impressive than many full time drummers I have seen. The icing was Adrian's acoustic songs, Young Lions, Men in Heli's, ToaPP and Dinosaur. As Ade commented on the brain split required to do ToaPP, I sat in wonderment as I heard this song in a new so powerfull light. Dinosaur was equally as impressive and the final "Lounge Vrooom" was the delightful capper to this wonderful evening. Standing ovations, everyone waving, RF blowing kisses to the crowd, the final bow and as they left the stage. I just didn't want it to end. A couple of suggestions (I hope this doesn't sound greedy). Adrian's acoustic songs worked so well how about a few acoustic numbers with all three members or RF and Ade on acoustic and Trey on Warr but straight, no effects. And maybe a single solo Soundscape from Robert (or just a longer one at the opening) and a solo Warr piece from Trey. Thanks Adrian, Robert and Trey for an evening of captivating music and all at show for being such a great audience. - Martin Bradburn <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> Martin G. Bradburn <>-<>-<>-<> Heartlab Inc <> <> Senior Database Engineer <>-<> 101 Airport Rd <> <> mgb at heartlab dot com <>-<> Westerly, RI 02891 <> <> mgb at brainiac dot com(home) <>-<>-<>-<> (401) 596-0592 x103 <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> 'There is only one musician in the world in many bodies' <> <> - Guitar Craft Aphorism <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:40:55 -0700 From: "JP Jacob" Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 in Somerville, MA Having seen P2 here (Somerville) and in New York, I'd say that the New York show - the one without the Belew set - was the more enjoyable and intense. And having heard a half dozen tapes of P2 play, I'd say that the description "completely improvised" is an overstatement. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:36:41 EDT From: Mulugalb at aol dot com Subject: GIG REVIEW: p2 in vermont and northampton mass Just a quick update to the set list for the June 30 & July 1st (Canada Day!) shows. The first night had Adrian up the acoustic set to a total of five songs - Helicoptors, Lone Rhino, Matte Kudese, and Three of a Perfect Pair all at the top of the second set and Dinosaur at the top of the encores. The next night in Northampton they added a ' lounge version ' of 21st Century Schizoid Man. You heard it here first ! Metin / Albany ny ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #517 ********************************