Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #516 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 516 Monday, 29 June 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: California Guitar Trio - Tony Geballe NEWS: Breakdown, the Michael Brook discussion list It's time to move on... dreamscaping "prog" fiasco in-dash,surveys,DGM site dormancy Live KC, "obscure" UK, and wot's Progressive Re: Crimson, the only...etc etc etc Re: It's time to move on... The Night Watch & The Great Deceiver crossover Ummmmm, "Missing the Point" About Piracy? Guitar Synthesisers 15 Soul Coughing Re: Survey methodology Re: It's time to move on... Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics Damage and moral questions. Moonchild in New Film -- Buffalo '66 Absent Lovers--dig it, don't bury it re: Soul Coughing Question about B.L.U.E. and comment about archive releases Papa bear packaging GIG REVIEW: P2 in Somerville, MA ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:34:37 EDT From: PaulyRich at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: California Guitar Trio - Tony Geballe Hello All, The new California Guitar Trio album "Pathways" will be in the shops in Europe on June 22 and in the USA and Canada on June 23. This album was produced at DGM studios in Wiltshire by David Singleton and Robert Fripp as Executive Producer. Guest musicians Trey Gunn and Bill Janssen (from Adrian Belew solo projects fame) are featured on several tracks. The California Guitar Trio and Tony Geballe will be on tour together beginning the end of June. Here are the tour dates: CALIFORNIA GUITAR TRIO & TONY GEBALLE TOUR: NEXT WEEK! Here is the latest schedule for the tour. There may be a Borders Bookstore date added on July 8th in the Philly area, but this is it for now... Looks like we will have some fun!!! Date City Venue Address Time June 30 Montreal Club Soda 7:30pm July 1 Travel Day (Montreal to Boston) 2 BOSTON, MA Borders 10-24 School St. 12:30pm 2 SALEM, MA RYKO DISC 27 Congress St 3:30pm 2 SOMERVILLE, MA Johnny D's 14 Holland St. 7:30pm 3 MANCHESTER, CT Borders 59 Pavilions Dr 2:00pm 3 DANBURY, CT Borders 110 Federal Rd. 8:00pm 4 PARAMUS, NJ Borders 230 Garden State Plaza 2:00pm 5 BRIDGEWATER, NJ Borders 290 Commons way 1:00pm 5 LIVINGSTON, NJ Borders 530 Mount Pleasant Ave. 5:00pm 6 NYC, NY WNYC Radio 1 Centre Street 11:00am 6 EAST BRUNSWICK, NJ Borders MidState Mall 300 Rt.18 7:00pm 7 NYC, NY Bottom Line 7:30 & 10:00p 9 PHILADELPHIA, PA Ethical Society 1906 Rittenhouse Sq. 7:30pm 10 COLUMBIA, MD Borders 9051 Snowden Sq. 3:00pm 10 BALTIMORE, MD Orion Sound Studios 7:30pm 11 GAITHERSBURG, MD Borders 534 No. Frederick Ave 12:00pm 12 PRINCETON, NJ Borders 601 Nassau Park, Bld. G 1:00pm We look forward to seeing our friends. And look for more dates later this year. Paul Richards ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:33:11 -0400 From: Chad Ossman Subject: NEWS: Breakdown, the Michael Brook discussion list Announcing ... "Breakdown," a discussion list for all matters Michael Brook I pray this post isnt too long or too marginal to the ET forum, but I thought the readership may be interested in also participating in a discussion on guitarist/producer Michael Brook. It may prompt some of you to harken back to the 1993 Road to Graceland tour ... Breakdown (http://www.columbia.edu/~co61/brook/), the greatest Michael Brook fan page on the web (the only bloody one!), celebrated its one-year anniversary on 12 June 1998. The site has accomplished a great deal - mainly the drawing together of megabytes worth of information, experience, and opinion. It's time to find out what kind of a community we have brought together. Breakdown enjoys an average of 30 hits a week, and has inspired 100 personal emails (an exact figure as of 25 June 1998). It's a very small community, but there's got to be one there. Let's start talking to each other. Our potential subject matter is rich and varied: Artforms: music, film, video, installation ... Genres: world, fusion, fourth, electronic, ambient ... Figures: Hassell, Lanois, Fordham, a pair of Enos ... Esoterica: guitar, equipment, live performance, technique ... Mu name is Chad Ossman, the chief one to blame for the Breakdown web site, and I will also act as the moderator of the Breakdown list. I only want to read and comment just as everyone else, but I will be there to prod the discussion along if necessary. Just as I do with the website, I encourage the contribution of everyone and anyone. The only requirements are that you approach the conversation with a sense of serious fun. A key purpose of the discussion list is to share information and news, but also to encourage the expression of personal opinion. Music fans too easily devolve into trainspotters. Although the website is information-rich, let the discussion list re-emphasize the reasons we all listen to Michael Brook and to music in the first place. Visit http://www.columbia.edu/~co61/brook/ for more information and to sign up for the list! Hope to hear from you soon, Chad ___________________________ Chad Ossman home: co61 at columbia dot edu work: chado at weblab dot org web: www.columbia.edu/~co61 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:59:22 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: It's time to move on... Greg_Bastug at essexusa dot com wrote... > But when I start hearing of "clubs" to prepay for more > archival releases, I begin to wonder where the focus is. > And when I read the (unanimous?) response toward the idea > in a special issue of ET, a skeptic might comment on how > lemming-like it all appears. The apparently unanimous response might be due to the fact that those who object to the idea are simply content to keep their money and let those who wish to participate, do so. I don't see why people spending their money on what they choose to spend it on should have them equated with lemmings. Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:38:04 EDT From: HACKENBOOK at aol dot com Subject: dreamscaping Hello all Having read the recent posts of dreams featuring Fripp, Wetton etc, I'm worried. I never dream about Fripp or Crimson, but instead find the likes of Claudia Schiffer appearing when I'm trying to concentrate on the value of atonal sound. Should I see a doctor? And I'm not goingto dignify the "only 3 good Genesis albums" crack with a response. Darn, just did. Bye Hugo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:13:39 +0000 From: "p. little/n. green" Subject: "prog" fiasco In ET#512 Eb wrote: > >From: "p. little/n. green" > > > >And while I'm > >ranting, maybe King Crimson, via (Fripp's) admirable > >disassociation with the "prog" label, is ironically one of > >the only well-known ("prog") bands who have lived up to the > >possibilities of how that genre of music should have > >developed. > > Make that the ONLY one.... Whoa, WAIT. Define "well-known." Or "prog." Henry Cow? The Canterbury scene? No New York? Whose expectations? For what? And how could you possibly define them in absence of what you already know happened? Does it matter that the progressive movement hardly made a long-term dent in the Billboard 100? Would you be happier if it had? Thanks, but I'll pass. Let some other metastasized cultural tumor claim responsibility for MTV/VH-1, the "megastore," and all ten local FM "modern rock" stations playing a thin variant of the same 200 songs. -------snip------ Bayard, To put it another way....if you look up "progressive" in most dictionaries, the definition is: "moving forward or onward, advancing....". I wouldn't claim for an instant that KC have always reflected this definition throughout their history (look at the similarities of the first two albums, and the 80s albums for example). In comparison, the overwhelming majority of bands who have been categorized by the media/ corporate marketing machinery as "prog", (and consequently lapped up by the fans as such), cannot even be remotely described as musically "moving forward". In comparison, there were some punk/new wave bands in the late 70s who did much more "moving forward" than a good number of wellknown "prog" outfits....who shall remain nameless. Agreed, there were/are some exceptions, but isn't it a touch ironic that so many current"prog" bands sound so dated?! I suppose the gripe is all about the susceptibility of the masses to be misled into thinking that groups of proficient adult musicians, some blithering a bunch of (absurd) Tolkeinesque lyrics, often spattered with endless minimoog solos, Hammond cliches, Mellotron (or similar) washes, irregular (often for their own sake) time signatures, and lengthy song formats could be somehow descibed as "moving forward". Or for that matter, these parameters are not necessary for great music. I think even the most die-hard "proggie" would concur. nik ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:06:33 -0400 From: David Steimling Subject: in-dash,surveys,DGM site dormancy Hey all, (Dave bows to Toby) Just a note about the in-dash turn-table..."In 1947 The Motorola trademark is so widely recognized that the company's name is changed from Galvin Manufacturing Corporation to Motorola, Inc." This is from Motorolas timeline on the net. I dont think the in-dash turntable was around in '47, so I doubt that is how Motorola got thier name. In fact it says that in 1930 "Paul Galvin coins the name Motorola for the company's new products, linking the ideas of motion and radio." Again, pre indash turntable, Im sure. I couldnt seem to locate any webpages with info on them specifically about in dash turntables. Must be too embarrasing for Motorola, Chrysler or whomever to admit it existed. Anyway, thought Id throw in a little on that to try to keep things accurate. I think tj makes a very important point when it comes to the surveys. 6% of the readership is answering the surveys? Are you kiddin me? I guess there arent 5000 people writing in, so I cant say that everyone is as excited about the ColleKCtors Club as the writership of ET. I would, though, imagine that if that many people are big enough fans to read this, even at an 80% readership of subscribers, that we should take the time to fill out these surveys. DGM is trying to do what the people want. How many record labels take the consumer so seriously and try to fulfill thier wishes so completely? It would be cool if they could get a better cross section of the fans so that more people could be better satisfied. I can understand those percentages when we are voting on something like the presidency of the US, but come on people, this is important stuff here!!! I havent been on DGMs site lately, but Im hearing (reading) alot about it not being too up-to-date, etc. Last issue someone (Brian Lindsay ) asked if this is an omen for the Club. If it is, I hope it reflects that they are so busy getting things together for the club that they havent had time to update the site. I guess Im an optimist. I also guess we'll wait & see what happens. I see Jennifer Gray wrote in also in #515. I thought she was busy on Dirty Dancing 2. Just kidd'n'. Enough bandwidth for me. Thanx Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:44:38 -0400 From: "Ted White" Subject: Live KC, "obscure" UK, and wot's Progressive Kudos to Bayard Brewin for his post in response to Eb, "Yeah, We're Dinosaurs. What's Your Point?" Solid stuff, Bayard. "The work is as good or bad now as the day it came out, defined by its moment, talent, and vision" sums it all up. The problem is a changing audience, bringing changing expectations and experiences to the work, and thus having changing perceptions. Greg Bastug says he's "keenly interested in buying and hearing fresh archive material, but as an adjunct to new compositions and releases, not as a primary musical staple." No real argument there, but, taking ABSENT LOVERS as an example, I was pleased by how unlike the studio albums it was, which made it relatively "new" for me. I caught KC on all three of its eighties tours through the DC area, and the concerts struck me as much closer to the KC "spirit" than the albums were. I liked the way improvisations segued into compositions, and I truly valued the "pieces" -- whether improvised or not -- which were never on any album. ABSENT LOVERS caught this nicely. What I'd like to see in the way of archival releases would be a THRAKATTACK-type album from the eighties concerts which featured only those unique-to-concert performances. That would be "new" enough for any of us, I think. Rich Grasso says, "If my memory serves, it was Motorola who pioneered the ill fated in-dash record player, and is in fact how the company got its name (Motor + Victrola)." I wonder if we're talking about two different eras and two different in-dash record players. Motorola may have had a hand in the Chrysler-product in-dash players of the early sixties, but the company (and its name) are decades older. (I tried checking Motorola's website but found no history of the company there, just a lot about their semi-conductor products of the present.) Mike Irish brings up the UK album, and wonders how "obscure" it was. The answer is, Not Very. The album got a lot of airplay on progressive or alternative FM stations here, and UK toured behind the first album (at which time I had the chance to meet John Wetton). (There were, of course, at least three UK albums, but only the first was made by the original, post-Crimson quartet with Holdsworth on guitar and Bruford on drums. The second LP, DANGER MONEY, was by a trio -- Jobson on violin & keyboards, Wetton on vocals & bass, and Terry Bozzio on drums & percussion. The third was a live album by the trio, NIGHT AFTER NIGHT -- most of side two is material from the first album, reinterpreted by the trio -- recorded in Japan.) All three were EG/Polydor releases, and had wide distribution. Mike adds, "Soft Machine nor Robert Wyatt, nor Kevin Ayers are considered Progressive, are they?" If I understand the question, Mike is asking why these people/group are Not "considered Progressive." Since I Do consider all three to be "progressive," I can't answer that question. There's a Voiceprint CD called THE GARDEN OF LOVE which cropped up recently in the Kevin Ayers section of one local store. It heralds "Kevin Ayers, Mike Oldfield, Robert Wyatt" across the top. Under the album title, at the bottom, in similar type to the top line, it says "David Bedford, Lol Coxhill, Six Beautiful Girls," with "Beautiful Girls" in much smaller type. If you've been wondering what this is, it is to begin with a single David Bedford composition, slightly over 20 minutes long (which makes for a very short CD!) recorded as performed live at the Queen Elizabeth Hall on September 26th of an unnamed year (circa 1970-71, I'm guessing) by Bedford, Ayers' The Whole World and a quintet of classical musicians, plus the "six beautiful girls for dancing and turning pages" who also at one point begin "bashing" the keyboards "with their fists and arms while the band drink beer on stage." It's a somewhat avant-garde "happening," you see. Bedford's score is richly atonal, but eventually resolves into something more Ayers-like, and late in the piece Ayers sings William Blake's poem, "The Garden of Love." "Then, the audience having already been informed that they are welcome to join the girls to dance in the aisles for the final few bars, the band, with Lol's sax to the front, plays on in a marvelous cacophony." You probably had to be there, but it is an indesputable Historical Document of what I think is very much progressive rock of its time. Soft Machine was, of course, several different bands in its history. The first, with Wyatt, Ayers and Daevid Allen, was well ahead of its time and pretty much set in motion much of the music which would follow in the next five or more years, especially in Canterbury. After Allen and then Ayers left it became a premier jazz/rock band. After Wyatt left it became a British fusion band, eventually morphing into Soft Heap. I have less (but still some) interest in the British avant-jazz scene of the early seventies to which the latter Soft Machine was tangential. The thing is, none of these people and bands were toiling under a banner that said Progressive Rock. That label came later, almost in hindsight. But they were all at varying times on the cutting edge, the exploratory edge of music, having come (except for Bedford) out of rock bands and with a rock orientation. And the cutting edge is, by definition, "progressive," no matter what trendy label of the time is used to describe it. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:27:20 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Crimson, the only...etc etc etc >Bayard Brewin wrote: > >Does it matter that the progressive movement hardly made a >long-term dent in the Billboard 100? Would you be happier if >it had? Thanks, but I'll pass. [and a slew of *other* arguments >that weren't really pertinent] I don't understand why you're arguing on and on about prog history and prog's influence on modern music. This is off-topic. The initial issue was the vitality of well-known prog bands today. As I see it, King Crimson is the only currently active band which 1) is generally agreed to be "prog" (say this about Phish, for instance, and you'll start a lengthy debate), 2) has an audience beyond a narrow, genre-based cult which is cynical (or even hostile) about all '90s-generation popular music, 3) has the relevance and drawing power to attract a major-label contract in the States and elsewhere, 4) continues to push themselves into fresh musical territory, rather than just swapping around existing pieces of their sound, and 5) can play concerts where the fans are consistently interested in hearing new songs, rather than just calling out for old favorites. I can't think of another group who passes all those tests. Maybe you think you can, but I doubt I'll agree with your choice(s). >From: "Alex *" > >Eb, in ET #512, said that Kc where the ONLY prog band who >have lived up to the possibilities of the genre. Crimson may >be the best prog band, but not the only good prog band. >Bands like ELP, Yes and Gentle Giant have lived up to those >possibilities, just not in the same way. Well, if we're talking about *active* prog bands (which I thought we were), then we disagree. Listen, I never said King Crimson was the only good prog band in the entire landscape of history. I interpreted the original writer to be talking about prog bands *today*, and the music they're writing *today*. Otherwise, he would have written in the past tense. Now maybe you do think In the Hot Seat and Open Your Eyes are important albums, but, um.... Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:47:18 -0700 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: It's time to move on... Greg Bastug: >I am pleased at hearing "Discipline" live, along with a few >other cuts, but its been three years and counting for new >studio material. And as interesting as the ProjeKCt material >is, I doubt many of us will be seriously listening to it a >few months from now, as opposed to the years of repeat >listentings of many of KC's great compositions. For me, new >work refresh the desire to listen to older material. But they don't have new material. They tried to create some and failed. It wasn't the "right" music, so they scrapped it. In the recent Bruford Innerviews interview, he said: "The story of those groupings is that last year, we nailed together enough music to make a new King Crimson record. And had we been working for Arista or Virgin and had received a large advance, we would have had to release that record, because that's the way the system works. Now, because we are independent -- happily so -- everyone thought 'This is a good record, but it is not the right record.' Because the right record wasn't there, what we chose to do is pause." In short, if impatient people like you continue to insist on new music NOW, we will get the wrong music. >This is an easy way for DGM to generate cash, and there's >nothing wrong with that. But when I start hearing of "clubs" >to prepay for more archival releases, I begin to wonder >where the focus is. And when I read the (unanimous?) >response toward the idea in a special issue of ET, a skeptic >might comment on how lemming-like it all appears. I think you underestimate everyone who responded. The phrase "lemming-like" indicates that everyone who supports the club idea must support it because everyone else does. This analysis is flawed on its face -- most of the responses were received before anyone had read the opinions of others on the list, so support of the club idea was based on many individual cases of desire to hear archival music rather than a bunch of people trying to impress other list members by voicing the same opinion over and over. The club idea is a way for much, much more archival music to be released. The fact that lots of list members would like this music to see the light of day shouldn't be surprising or cause for charges of mindlessness or lack of autonomy. If you belong to the apparent minority of the list members who don't like the idea of this club, then don't join when it's founded. >We've read in liner notes about how financially difficult it >is for a this six-member band to tour, but what about >starting just with some new studio material? In a Bruford >interview a few months ago, I seem to recall even he was >raising an eybrow toward all the efforts looking backward as >opposed to forward. He also said in the same interview: "I think that's quite nice that a 1973 record should come out after a 1986 record. That amuses me. I like that." >Crimson is arguably the most talented >band of the last few decades, but the ever-increasing draw >on their historical reservoir is leaving my mouth a bit >dry... There's a simple solution. If you don't want to hear more archival material, don't buy it. Don't listen to it. Pretend it doesn't exist. But please, for those of us who are waiting on pins and needles for this stuff, quit trying to discourage it. We'll all love the day when Crimson releases new material, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy old material in the meantime. Eric D. Dixon http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6072/ Stop the persecution of Bill Gates and Microsoft! http://www.moral-defense.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:43:36 -0700 From: "Andy Gower" Subject: The Night Watch & The Great Deceiver crossover Has anyone noticed that Improv :The Fright Watch from the Night Watch sounds very similar to Wilton Carpet from The Great Deceiver? Andy Gower http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Arena/2763/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 02:45:01 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Ummmmm, "Missing the Point" About Piracy? > From: Kathryn Ottersten > Subject: To Copy or not to Copy... > > In ET 511 Mark Fenkner wrote about trying to obtain "Damage": > > > I have always been against bootlegging, but after a year > > of trying to obtain this CD, I am starting to think that > > if the record companies will not provide the opportunity > > for consumers to purchase the product, then consumers > > should distribute it themselves. > > And later Steve Smith missed the point entirely when he wrote: > > > Or an overeager fan who didn't hear about the Tour Fund > > could be so pissed he can't buy "MarillionRochester" that > > he'll threaten to pirate copies 50 at a time to retaliate. Ummm, what point exactly is it that I've missed, Kathryn? The one I addressed was the not Mark's right to dub a few copies of a rare recording for a friend or five (something I do all the time myself, including "Damage"), but the not-merely-implied-but-stated threat Mark made to start burning large numbers of CD copies (i.e. perfect duplicates) of a recording that is owned by someone else. Period. This *is* piracy, although there are many who would deem the mass reproduction of an out-of-print recording bootlegging (as in the extant CD versions of "Earthbound" and "USA" on the market), since technically no potential royalties are being usurped from a legitimate album on the market. But this is splitting hairs. > Mark is questioning if it is moral to copy an > already distributed recording. I think it is, though only > if you pay the record company for the copies. It is within your right to believe that the act is "moral," but you have no legal footing upon which to base your assessment. And in *fact* you are condoning a crime. Record labels are adamant about retaining control over everything in which they have ever made the investment to record. This is one reason why they all maintain both catalog development departments and "special markets" divisions. Either the label itself will continue to exploit the original recording through reissues and compilations, or it will continue to exploit the original recording by licensing it to another company in a better position to reissue it for a fee via the special markets division, or in extremely rare instances a label will agree to sell an artist's work back to him/her. In any event, there is money to be made in each scenario, plus numerous other financial factors that crop up into the overall financial structure in each and every recording (mechanical royalties, publishing royalties, etc., etc., etc.). So mailing the label a check for some arbitrary amount is basically saying "I'm stealing your property, here's where you can send the summons." > Therefore, In the > case of "Damage", I would send a note and a check to Mr. > Fripp c/o of DGM, and what the company chooses to do with my > money they can decide. At the least, he would spit on your shoe. At worst (and perhaps most likely) he could sue. And that's not to mention Virgin Records, the *actual* owner of the master tape, the physical artifact containing the sound recordings that comprise "Damage." > I'll finish preaching for now. Preach about the morals of the situation all you wish... both your proposition and Mark's are flat out illegal. The "I sent a check" scenario is all well and good *only* if it was following a deal you negotiated with Virgin Records. Fripp himself would have very little or nothing to do with it. (And FYI those morally indefensible bootleggers you mention used to excuse themselves from moral wrongdoing by stating in print on the back cover that they'd deposited a check for the royalties from their recordings in a bank account accessible to the artist... the trick was that if the artist collected the money, it appeared that the recording was sanctioned.) To spell it out, my making a tape of "Damage" for myself is fine, but my making a tape for someone else is technically illegal. Since I, like you and Mark, prefer the dissemination of music to those who wish to hear it, I have quietly made cassette dubs for any number of friends and acquaintances who have sought it out. (I would *not* do the same for a title currently in print, without question.) Mark's goal was most probably the same: to provide the music of "Damage" to those who missed the original issue. If he were offering to burn a copy for everyone who provided a blank CD-R, postage and not one cent more, Mark's offer would still technically have been illegal, but I doubt it would have raised anyone's eyebrows aside from those of Fripp, who, I suspect, might have reacted differently. Indeed such copying is under more scrutiny than ever before with the CD-R, since this is the first time in history that a copy of an artifact is not slightly inferior but *identical* to the original artifact - a huge concern to commercial enterprises, who are all about owning the rights to a thing. And ultimately, Mark's stated threat of burning copies 50 at a time seemed to be a threat of piracy in retaliation for a label not making enough copies of a record, no more, no less. A Robin Hood approach, to be sure, but "robbing from the rich" is still stealing. If you want to take the moral high road and do what's *strictly* legal, keep searching for a secondhand copy of "Damage" and in the meantime start a letter-writing campaign to Virgin, the label that almost certainly made the album a limited edition due to cynicism about its potential market anyway. And if the moral high road becomes too trying, buy the inevitable bootleg. And as a final note, as both a member of the "music industry" and a bootleg collector who's more than happy to dub copies of those indefensible live recordings for those who wish to hear them, all of the above is not my opinion, it's just the facts. So I don't see that I really missed the point at all. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:39:56 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: Guitar Synthesisers Hi, Does anyone know any places on the internet which have information on guitar synthesisers, especially those used by members of KC? Stu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:44:41 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: 15 Hi, I am 15 years old. Can anyone beat that in terms of how young you are? No offence to the older members of the ET community but I'd just like to talk to someone else around my age group! If you are around my age e-mail me, especially if you come from Australia! Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:32:15 -0400 From: mikeh97 at gis dot net (MH) Subject: Soul Coughing Sergei Kantere asked about Soul Coughing in #515... A friend of mine, knowing I like Crimson, introduced me to Soul Coughing about a year ago. I haven't seen them live, but their two discs to date are fantastic ( the second one being Irresistable Bliss, and a third is on the way ). The lineup is singer/guitarist, (killer/funky) upright bassist, drummer, and samplist (?). If you like nonsensical/intelligent music with a lot of humor ( most of which is in the music, not the words ), you might like Soul Coughing...one track on 'Bliss ( called "Dumb" or "Paint", I forget which ) is highly Crimsonesque. Highly recommended. Mike Hairston (mikeh97 at gis dot net) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 98 15:09:29 +0200 From: Pierre Dauchy Subject: Re: Survey methodology Hi all, In ET515, tj wrote: > I did a little math. ET has over 5000 "readers" now. The > survey question on Free Form vs. Structured brought 273 > replies and the About yourself query was a bit higher at > 302. Using the 5000 number these are response rates of 5.5 > and 6.0 percent. That's _real_ lousy, perhaps absurd to rely > on. In my work world 80 percent is considered good. We need > much greater numbers to reply or should try to avoid putting > trust in the handy spreadsheets and pie charts offered up. I beg to differ a little. From what I've been taught in statistics, it is not unrealistic to draw useful information from a small percentage of the population under study, provided that population is large enough AND the sampling method is not biased. > ... We do know something about the those who replied. This, not the number of replies, is IMHO the crucial point. Selecting a sample just by taking spontaneous replies is usually a very biased method which will not give reliable information about the whole population. Though I wonder what could be done to make better surveys. Considering the fact that some of us read ET on line, even a random selection among ET subscribers would not be reasonable, unless they are a clear majority... Dan, O Most Efficient Webmeister, have you put a hit counter on each on-line ET issue ? :-) Pierre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:50:59 +0100 From: Peter Clinch

Subject: Re: It's time to move on... In ET 515, Greg Bastug writes both: > And as interesting as the ProjeKCt material is, I doubt many of > us will beseriously listening to it a few months from now, as > opposed to the years of repeat listentings of many of KC's great > compositions. And also: > but what about starting just with some new studio material? I note from the Space Grooves sleeve notes that part of the point of the projeKcts is "R&D for, and on behalf of, the Greater Crim" (quote from memory, but I think I have the essence of it). Thus, it would seem to me that your chances of getting new material for KC is greatly enhanced by the projeKcts going ahead. I'd rather they took their time and came up with usable directions through this method than "just some new studio material" that's come out of a creative void. I'm rather with you on the overburdening weight of archive material, but in that case the market provides a ready mechanism of limiting the output: nobody's forcing anyone to buy it, after all. And I imagine it's a rather different job remastering an existing tape to marshalling the full double trio, both logistically and creatively, even if no touring is involved. regards, Pete. -- Peter Clinch Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net p dot j dot clinch at dundee dot ac dot uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:46:21 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics In ET #515 a number of ETers commented on the ET Web surveys. Before things get out of hand I'd like to inject a few thoughts. Before we started running these surveys, such things were done by individuals asking ETers to respond via email to this or that question. Although we'd love more people to respond to the ET Web surveys, we're still get far more responses than any of those surveys did. The point being that although they don't cover a huge population of ETers, they cover more than ET surveys taken any other way, and certainly a survey population of 300-600 hundred is more meaningful than 50-100. Nevertheless, as much as I find these surveys interesting, please take them with a grain of salt. tj correctly points out that the percentage of respondents is small compared to the number of readers of this newsletter. However, statistically (and my brother can probably better discuss this - Dave?), a survey does not need to cover 80% of a population to have meaning. Certainly AC Nielsen doesn't need to poll every television viewer to gauge audience viewing habits. Regardless, don't get all out of shape about the survey results. They are not gospel, but they are a way to better gauge some opinions or trends. Moving on, I'd also like to correct Les Labbauf concerning what appears to be a continuing bloating of known truth in ET about Kurt Cobain's thoughts on "Red". Les said, "Well I remember reading something were Curt Cobain said that RED was the best album he ever heard." A quick search of Mike Stok's Crimso Archives will uncover a number of other equally exaggerated statements. I believe that the source of all of these comments is a 1995 Rock & Folk interview with Fripp I translated for ET. What was actually said was (translated from French): Rock & Folk >> Did you know that Kurt Cobain was a big fan of your album "Red"? Fripp >> I found out through John Wetton last year. The producer of the first Nirvana records told him: "I saw King Crimson in 74, I was 16 and I thought I saw God." He told John that "Red" was an important record to Kurt. Note: the producer thought *he* "saw God", not Kurt - just in case that also gets misread. The entire interview can be found at ET Web. Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:56:17 +0000 Subject: Damage and moral questions. From: "John 0tt" In ET 515 Kathryn Ottersten writes: >In ET 511 Mark Fenkner wrote about trying to obtain "Damage": >>> I have always been against bootlegging, but after a year >>> of trying to obtain this CD, I am starting to think that >>> if the record companies will not provide the opportunity >>> for consumers to purchase the product, then consumers >>> should distribute it themselves. >In ET 513 he received two responses that ignored his basic >question: >John Ott's response was reasonable until he added his juvenile coda: >> But Damage was released as a limited edition collectors >> item. To release more would be going back on the limited >> edition status. There were plenty of copies available at >> Tower when I got mine. You snooze you loose. What I meant by my "juvenile coda": "You snooze you loose" was that the crimson beast was dormant so if you were not actively looking for Frippish material at the time you would have missed it. Is that "adult" enough for you? I did not know Damage was out at the time, but I check the record stores weekly for new material. And there were about 30 copies available when I got mine. Kathryn continues with: >I believe that Mark's point deserves better treatment. Many >people on ET trade boots, and many don't, but most posts I >have read acknowledge that it is not defensible in a moral >context. Mark is questioning if it is moral to copy an >already distributed recording. I think it is, though only >if you pay the record company for the copies. Do you think this actually happens? If I did make a copy and send 30 bucks to Virgin, Do you think Sylvian/Fripp would see any of that $30? The moral question is will the artist get rewarded for his work. This never happens with bootlegging regardless if the work is in or out of print. >This is all very nice if you live in a big town that has a >Tower Records but what if you live in Moncton,New Brunswick >Canada! I'v been frustrated by the unavailability of Damage >for some time. I agree that it would be wrong to compromise >the limited edition nature of the CD which would reduce it's >value to collectors but there is a simple solution. Instead >of making another pressing of the limited edition "gold" cd, >they should make a regular pressing for all us small town >poor shmucks who just would like to hear the music. The >"gold" cd would still be a limited edition rarity for >collector types. As for your point about being in Moncton you are on the internet and you can order from Tower online. Or you can subscribe to their Magazine "Pulse" and call an 800 number and order. I have friends in rural areas that do this. Or use CDnow, the Artist Shop or one of another online services As for a new "non gold" release, that would still make the gold release not a limited edition. I would consider that a breach of trust by Virgin, Mr. Sylvian and Mr. Fripp if more copies were made available. I paid close to $30 when it came out and was not as lucky as others that obtained it for as low as Adam Levin reports. But I was willing to pay that cost because I knew the music would be wonderful. I did not buy it to sell it as a collectors item. I do have sympathy for those you really want to hear this music but have not found the CD. Keep trying copies do show up from time to time. I have seen them offered here and on the Sylvian List. Sometimes for less than I paid at Tower. later John. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:10:05 -0400 From: Steve Gould Subject: Moonchild in New Film -- Buffalo '66 The Just released film "Buffalo '66" features a surreal tap dance scene in a bowling alley while the audience hears the opening verses of Moonchild. The films climax and preview trailer features Heart of the Sunrise by Yes and at the films end the credits scroll to Sweetness, also by Yes. it is quite a moving film and the Moonchild scene works although not the way Sinfield may have envisioned it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:22:28 CDT From: Andy Dean Subject: Absent Lovers--dig it, don't bury it Hi all ... just thought I'd add my take on Absent Lovers before there get to be too many reviews. I admit I bought this one kind of half-heartedly -- like many, the '80s lineup hadn't really been my favorite. Now, though, I'm singing a different tune -- these songs have never sounded better, with the possible exception of Sleepless; Tony's part just sounds too faint, though I was pleased with the recording on the whole. (I should point out that I'm no hard-core audiophile; for example I happen to think that given the sources of some of the recordings, Epitaph sounds pretty damn good.) Even Red & LTiA II, which we've all heard a gazillion times, sound fresh & new with the '80s interpretation. Plus a lot of songs I hadn't liked before (especially Waiting Man -- WOW) blew me away this time. If you're an '80s skeptic, you owe it to yourself to give this one a listen & see if they don't change your mind. I can tell already that it's going to be my soundtrack for the summer. --Andy Dean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:43:03 -0700 From: Anthony Kyle Monday Subject: re: Soul Coughing "Sergei Kantere" wrote re: Soul Coughing >Anyways, the title of their album is "RUBY VROOM" (sorry, >just two 'O's...), one of the songs is called "Bus to >Beelzebub", the other "Is Chicago, Is Not Chicago", and the >co-producer is Chad Blake ("From the Caves..."). It's the same Tchad Blake. The title is an in-joke: the album was also produced by Mitchell Froom, husband of Suzanne Vega, and their daughter's name is Ruby Froom. >I know it's just a bunch of unconvincing coincidences, but >somehow I got interested. Is it worth hearing? Yes, it is. The music is very groove heavy, reminiscint of the funkier aspects of the 80's Crim, with dada-inspired lyrics. I think I like their second release, "Irresistable Bliss," a little bit more, but either one is a wise purchase. regards, Kyle * -------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony Kyle Monday akmonday at hooked dot net "My troika was pursued by wolves" svevo at uclink4 dot berkeley dot edu * -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:37:21 -0400 From: Rick Tolbert Subject: Question about B.L.U.E. and comment about archive releases Dear fellow E.T. readers, I'm back to subscribing after a long absence and have been doing catch-up reading. It's good to be back, but I still feel a little "out of the loop" and need some assistance...what is this "B.L.U.E." recording I've seen mentioned here as of late? I went to the E.T. web site and looked through the discographies for Fripp and KC as well as the FAQ, but can't find any information on it. Could some kind soul please enlighten me here? God knows the DGM/Possible Productions web site is of no use whatsoever, being so shockingly out of date. And for what it's worth, I want to put my proverbial 2 cents in on the archival releases thread. I'm surprised (well, not really, I guess) that there are some subscribers who actually seem to be nay-sayers to the release of archived live releases in recent times and to plans/demands for even more of the same in the future. I guess I have to ask what seems to me to be an obvious question - why? If I don't want something, I don't buy it. If I'm not interested in something, I don't talk about it. Why in the world begrudge those who feel otherwise (who, it would seem, are clearly the majority) the chance to purchase the material they wish to hear? This "I don't want it, so you shouldn't have it" mentality is a tad bizarre to me. If the "concern" here is the release of obviously poor-quality material, I think it's safe to say that such an objection is unfounded, given the hands-on approach of Mr. Fripp and the rest of the DGM team. Then there's the issue of what they've released so far, none of which can be called trash. And last but not least, not a person I'm aware of has been coerced into purchasing any DGM release - so we're always free to simply get on with our lives when the dreaded discs hit the stores. Perhaps the concern is one of hindering new recordings and somehow stifling creativity. This would seem like a legitimate concern...until we realize who we are talking about. We have no evidence for this claim and, with all the activity of KC-related side projects going on, I'd say we have much evidence against it. Nor can we force the muse upon the band by putting them in a fan-imposed glass jar. "You boys just sit here and write, now! We don't wanna hear any discussion of your history! Ignore the desires of the majority of your audience....if it ain't new, it ain't gonna fly!" Ever see the film "Misery"? I'd like to see a new KC studio album as much as anyone (or even a high-quality live one of mostly newer material from the current lineup) but I'm prepared to wait for it. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy the archives and the side projects - immensely, in my case. Does anyone really believe that issuing archived material to meet continued demand is going to prevent someone like Mr. Fripp from (to roughly paraphrase his own words) recording music that only KC can record? I, for one, do not. Let the band be and enjoy what we are offered. Or don't. But don't rain on someone else's parade. Regards to all... Rick Tolbert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:36:38 +1000 From: "Peter Allen" Subject: Papa bear packaging Jamie Lack wrote: >It's odd that in spite of the effort Tony Levin goes to give >us wonderful packaging, some of his consumers end up using >jewel cases anyway. This is a case where the ethics of >being a consumer are challenged. Tony's explicit aim, Is to >produce an alternative package to the jewel box. DGM manage to produce an alternate packaging which gives the same artistic possibilities as Tony's, but holds the CD far more safely. >The card packaging has a much shorter "out of use" lifecycle than the >jewel case. This means that it biodegrades faster. And why is this desirable? CD packaging is not the same as a soft drink bottle. I buy my recordings to keep. >Of course, this also >means that if you don't take care of your CD and it's packaging, it >may degrade faster "in use" as well. > >I wonder though, how difficult is it to take a little bit of >extra care when handling these great CD's? I treat them >preciously. And I suggest that "Peter Allen" should learn a >little about the consequences of disposable consumerism. >(Especially environmental) The throwaway attitude really is >nasty. Shame Shame Shame. What a weird argument. I'm afraid I don't throw away Tony's CDs - they're too good for that. That's why the badly packaged ones have to be wastefully stored in an extra jewel case. I suppose your next suggestion for environmentally friendly music storage will be a CD made of dyed cardboard instead of plastic and aluminium. Good luck! I suppose the artists will make a lot of money from resales as a few million CDs and cases biodegrade each year, and another few forests are cut down to replace them... :-) Cheers, Peter * -------------------------------------- Peter Allen (pda at melbpc dot org dot au) Melbourne PC User Group * -------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:19:23 -0400 From: mikeh97 at gis dot net (MH) Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 in Somerville, MA Saw P2 last night, and here are some thoughts: Overall show was 2 hours, with 2 short acoustic sets by Adrian, who played "Young Lions," "Men in Helicopters," "Three of a Perfect Pair," and "Dinosaur." He was well received, and deservedly, since I think it took a lot of balls to do that. And, as people have been posting, P2 is very much centered around Adrian. He played (drums) like a maniac, seemed to be having a blast, smiling and laughing the whole time. He sat out for a few atmospheric sections by Robert & Trey ( as my friend Chris commented, "If it's less than 150 bpm, Adrian doesn't want to have anything to do with it." ). Since this was almost entirely improvised, there were a few moments of really great stuff, and a greater quantity of so-so. I grew a bit tired of Robert's (guitar-sound) solos, which seemed to be a bit more-of-same. My friend couldn't stand all the "glockenspiel" sounds, as he put it. I felt they were a refreshing break from the now cliche fuzz sound. A few highlights: One piece started with Robert & Trey playing a duet that interpolated "Stultified" from the Fripp & Summers "Bewitched" album ( anybody agree? ), and another piece in which they alternated notes was striking. Somewhere in the middle of the second set there was a really funny piece which started with Adrian playing a hilarious "toy" piano/percussion bit. When he "climaxed" with a pathetically feeble bell sound, Robert just gave him a look that had the audience rolling. A good show overall, not amazing, but brave. Oh, and Trey was amazing. ( "He's gotta be about eight feet tall...." mumbled my friend ) He played everything from simulation Fripp tone to unGodly low bass rumbling to rhythm parts to that weird sampled-vocal thing everybody's been mentioning. ( I couldn't make out what it was saying ) And the thing about Trey is, he makes it look horrendously easy. I have to mention one unpleasant point. A fellow concertgoer nearby, when he overheard us talking about Fripp, made great pains to turn around AND IN A LOUD AND CLEAR VOICE told us how he had "spent time" with Fripp and that he ( Fripp ) was the "biggest dick in the world." I guess that's why this guy was at the P2 show, and also why he looked EXACTLY like Fripp circa 1974. My only comment is that I assume "spending time" means he once stalked him or tried to touch him at a KC show. A more refreshing attitude came from a guy next to me, who attended the autograph session at Tower records the day before, and had his guitar with him. According to him, Adrian asked him if he wanted him to sign the guitar, to which he replied, "No, I play this, I don't want anybody writing on it." ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #516 ********************************