Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #512 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 512 Thursday, 25 June 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: New survey, and results in for #4 and #5 NEWS: The California Guitar Trio in Philly NEWS: John Wetton GIG BIZ: Are any Boston area ETer's getting together before the P2 show ? Whats up with the Club? I heard........... David Sylvian\Robert Fripp Video kc lp I had a dream King Crimson New And Old BLUE oddity dream....!? Introducing the New Bridge Trio matrimony Possible Performances? Sinfield DeconstuKcting Crimson ET rules A Question Review- Absent Lovers IMPORTANT! Info re:In Store Signing in Boston ONE OF A KIND PAINTING FOR SALE Back Catalog Re-Masters Survey data, DGM club & Exposure The Drive To $175.... John Medeski & Mellotron DGM Site -- Dormant?? Fripp's wailing sound NEWS: ProjeKCt Two in Toronto. Used Chapman Stick for sale On Matters Crim Crimson Women Damage! In response to Adrian's "Burned Fire..." tabs post Papa bear packaging That pesky edit again.... Re: Bowie, Fripp & Belew Re: ranting Re: Henry Cow Frippenbowie, Loudness Eric Tamm Book Spotted in Edinburgh Network Re: KC, an American band Re: Fripp's Network EP Re: Song for the new millenium Education? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:02:40 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: New survey, and results in for #4 and #5 The results are in on the Structured vs. Improvised survey. No huge surprise here with structured Crimson material winning decisively. Our demographics survey results are also up at ET Web. Some interesting results. If the number of women respondants is any indication, ETers are almost 95% men (if not earnest or young). If anyone would like other cross referenced breakdowns than the ones on the survey page, send me an email. I've also put up a new survey addressing the DGM Club news. Although I wanted to get DGM's help in coming up with good questions I've had to come up with these myself (or else wait a little longer). Thanks to those of you suggesting questions, hopefully the ones I've put in the survey will be useful. Anyway, please stop by ET Web (www.elephant-talk.com) and provide your response to the survey. It will run until July 19th. Cheers, Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:34:24 EDT From: TwEbB2436 at aol dot com Subject: NEWS: The California Guitar Trio in Philly The California Guitar Trio featuring an opening performance by Tony Geballe: July 9th, 1998, 8:00 p.m. Ethical Society Building 1906 Rittenhouse Square (south) Doors open at 7:30 p.m. Tickets at the door only. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 10:49:32 PDT From: "Gary L. Carter" Subject: NEWS: John Wetton Readers of "Elephant Talk" may like to know that there is now a UK based official information magazine on John Wetton. This has John's full approval and involvement. Perhaps you would like to include a mention of us on your Site. If anyone would like details, please write to John Wetton Info PO BOX 1041 OXFORD OX4 2YT UK subscriptions are UKP 8 (UK), UKP 10 (Europea), UKP 12 (Elsewhere) for four magazines per year. cheques, POs, IMOS, cash in UKP only to "John Wetton Info". Please feel free to e-mail or write, if I can help you in any way. We wish to co-operate with other magazines and Web Sites with a free exchange of information. Kind regards, GARY CARTER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:54:42 -0400 From: jmooney at bigyellow dot com Subject: GIG BIZ: Are any Boston area ETer's getting together before the P2 show ? 5 days before the P2 gig in Somerville, MA. Are any ETer's interested in meeting someplace in the area for drinks,dinner,dialogue,dualogue, diatribe ? Please give me an email and I'll try to arrange something suitable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:50:50 +0200 From: AndyPohl at t-online dot de (Andy Pohl) Subject: Whats up with the Club? Hi there, hi all ETers around the world, this is the first Time, that i wrote into ET - but i read all 510 Issues very well. Can anybody tell me in German-Language (or easy-english) whats up with the DGM-Club. I think, this is a great idea, but my english is not so good for understanding all about it. I am a music-freak (K.C.-Fan over all!!!) and a part-time music-journalist. I am listen every day to the new double-cd "Absent-Lovers" and must say: it is a genius thing - the are many magical moments on this records. The sound is phenomenal and the list of tracks are making me craaaazy... i forget all other things when i listen to this album... please, when there is any german-fan, feel free to contact me!!! Watch my web-site: www.plus-pohl.de and give me an answer. Thanx and good luck to all of you - Thanx to the musicians for all the spectacular notes Andy Pohl, Schieder-Schwalenberg, Germany ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:12:34 -0700 From: "Turnner" Subject: I heard........... I heard that KC was going to be in Seattle very shortly for the Seattle release of the live 80's album. Can you confirm this? If so can you supply me with a date and time. Thank You, The Fat Man ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:53:47 -0700 From: "a. b. tuckerman" Subject: David Sylvian\Robert Fripp Video Does anyone have a copy of the David Sylvian\Robert Fripp live video, but in VHS form? Could i possibly buy a copy of this from someone who does? Personal replies would probably be best, and annoy the rest of the people on the list the least. Thanks, Adam Tuckerman crimson at aznet dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:01:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Marina Salzano Subject: kc lp anyone interested in the red lp sealed. let me know. Marina Salzano p040835b at pb dot seflin dot org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 09:35:21 -0400 From: alan s cohen Subject: I had a dream So in my dream, I'm at a ProjeKct something concert. It's the encore, and Fripp is alone on stage playing some sort of percussion instrument. Then he walks through the audience playing it. He is then standing in front of me, and a girl off to the side takes his photo, although there is no flash. But Fripp notices, and starts yelling at her for a few seconds. After he stopped yelling, he surprisingly went back to playing. The girl then takes another flashless photo, and then Fripp quitely says "I'm sorry. I can't go on." End of show, end of dream. Boy, it's bad enough that photographers are stealing moments of my real life. Now I can't even dream without those damned photographers. How would Freud analyze this? Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:24:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Christopher Allen Nollett Subject: King Crimson New And Old I just want to briefly adress some comments in general that have been made about the double trio incarnation of King Crimson in comparison with the older versions of the band. First of all I think it is without question that the musician involved in the new King Crimson are the most technically proficient players that band has had. Also as far as Mr. Fripp having the right to continue the new band as Crimson, I think time has shown that Mr. Fripp is the most dedicated person to the tradition of Crimson. Hence I fully trust any decisions made by Robert Fripp in determining the course of King Crimson-Present and Future. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:25:20 +0100 From: Matthew Nolan Subject: BLUE oddity Very recently received my copy of B.L.U.E. from DGM. I've only listened to it through a couple of times so far, but I'd have to give it a definite thumbs up. Something's strange though - it seems to disable the track skip buttons on my in-car player (and not just for track skipping either - the same buttons are used to navigate menus for bass, treble, pan, etc.) This isn't really a problem - I tend to listen to albums end to end anyway - but last night I'd got as far as track 7 in the house and thought I'd start at 8 in the car this morning. No joy. I expect this is more of a bug in my player than something on the CD (although, undoubtedly something about the CD is triggering it - maybe the presence if the quicktime stuff). Strange and mildly amusing all the same. Also, I am saddened to find out that Ten Seconds is no longer available (here in the UK), I'd been putting off buying that for ages - until I wanted something else too. There's a lesson in there somewhere.... Regards, Matt Nolan. ============================================================= --Day-Job:-Design-Engineer--Oak-Technology-Ltd--Bristol--UK-- --Eves-&-Weekends:-Drummer-Engineer-Producer--Teeth-Records-- ============================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:52:47 -0700 From: "Alex Smith" Subject: dream....!? I had the strangest dream last night: I met John Wetton in a music store, and we talked about KC, UK, et al.... how weird. chao, Alex Smith bacchus at azstarnet dot com http://www.azstarnet.com/~bacchus/rush/ "Sometimes a view from sinless eyes Centers our perspective And pacifies our cries Sometimes the anguish we survive And the mysteries we nurture Are the fabrics of our lives." -Dream Theater ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:40:30 EDT From: Js7684 at aol dot com Subject: Introducing the New Bridge Trio If you're interested in hearing a new improvisational acoustic band, you've gotta get into the New Bridge Trio. It consists of a classical guitarst, upright bassist, and percussionist. Their style resembles the ambient music forms of Brian Eno. I've got a great tape of them and if you're interested, let me know. You won't regret it!!!! Jay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:59:09 -0500 From: Curtis Franks Subject: matrimony Well, looks like Tony Levin's tied the figurative knot. Congratulations to him and Andi, who were married last May. But don't take it from me; read more about it and the upcomming Absent Lovers in-store signings at http://www/papabear.com/tlev.htm. Curtis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:07:06 -0700 From: Herb Subject: Possible Performances? Greetings, all. Just curious: If enough Australians "pre-purchased" tickets for a KC gig, would it happen? Or anywhere else, for that matter? Regardless, Mike Holst "We've got your skinny girl, here at the Western World." --Steely Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:06:57 +0000 From: Reed Thorne Subject: Sinfield Hello, I have been listening to King Crimson since the very beginning in 1968. Can you tell me what ever happened to lyricist Peter Sinfield? Please, I am desperate to know. I know he wenton to Roxy Music after a rift with Fripp over something... But? Thanks, Reed ropes at sedona dot net www.sedona.net/ropes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:33:51 -0500 From: "Ced" Subject: DeconstuKcting Crimson Greetings All: I have the house to myself this weekend, so I have a little time to think about our favorite band. Much has been said both here and through e-mails with friends about the direction KC seems to be taking, away from "structured" material and more toward improv. From the sound of things, most of us would be happy hearing "Schizoid Man," "Larks Tongues," and "Dinosaur" for the rest of our lives. So, why, I wondered, isn't the band trying to push their newer music in that direction? Why is it taking so long to "re-invent" Crimson? The answer appeared to me in what some would call a "moment of clarity." They're bored. It's that simple. Sure, the above tunes are great, and I'm sure they're a blast to play (I know I'm having fun learning them). But who wants to play the same tunes over and over night after night? Face it, folks. Prior to Thrak, the most recent material played on the stage is damn near 15 years old!!! It's time to move on. Writing new songs may seem all well and good on the surface, but that may be limiting the band, and its true abilities. Why write new songs just to play them over and over, until you get tired of them as well? But improv .. ah, there's a challenge!! From the band's standpoint, this has to be really exciting. Six world class musicians, in front of a sold out crowd, given a theme statement, and then having to work it out then and there, with the people watching and listening! That's scary! But it keeps the band's energy and creative juices flowing. And they don't have to fall back on any old cliche. Perhaps they could make the music more accesible by synchronizing the band's movements around one soloist, a la jazz. But organized chaos has its moments as well. I'm just spiffballing here, but that's where I feel Fripp's head is right now. Adrian Belew looks like he enjoys the challenge as well (and can always save the catchy tunes for his solo records). And the rhythm section .. it's a dream come true. Well, that's what I think is happening. The next phase of Crimson is going to contain some very dangerous music. The timid need not apply. Another thought -- record the next record live in the studio. No overdubs (unless necessary). Let the band members see each other, so they can play off that. THEN we'll have the true Crimson sound in the studio (which has yet to happen, when you compare the studio to live sounds). Discuss ... Peace, Ced ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:18:35 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: ET rules Since joining ET around issue #505 the only thing I have got is....a incredibly love for the newsletter! I seem to be getting e-mails by the dozen! Add to that that they have all been positive feedback to my own posts! Top it all off with Chris Norton & another anonymous ETer that are sending me free Crimson tapes!!(cause I live in Australia). I just wanted to give a few words of encouragement and thanks to all you fellow ETers, wherever you may be! Thank you and keep up the interesting topics. Stuart "If I hear 'Long-distance Runaround' on one more compilation I will cry!"-Steve Howe "I like 'Long-distance Runaround'."-Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:05:42 +0100 From: "John Stevens" Subject: A Question I have a question from a friend of mine, Patrick White in Lancaster, Pennsylvania; Why is it that on The Nightwatch, particularly Disc2, that David Cross's electric piano appears to be heavily chorused, whereas on extant bootlegs it does not seem to be? Any comments, either posted to ET or emailed direct to me, will be greatly appreciated. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:08:45 -0500 From: "Eric and Nancy Thorson" Subject: Review- Absent Lovers I sit breathless after my first listen of Absent Lovers, the new live album from the 81-84 King Crimson. I must say that this live album has caused me to hear that band in an entirely new way. The experience is akin to what The Great Deciever did for my perception of the 72-74 King Crimson. The commpnplace assertion that King Crimson plays best live holds true. I love Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair, but had always considered this band to be the tamest version of King Crimson. What I heard on the studio albums made me think that the 80's Crimson was more restrained, song oriented, and somewhat captive to the mild tone colors of the time. Absent Lovers shows this band in another light. I hear all of the songs in a new light. It is interesting that the album is heavy with "the weird stuff" as Adrian describes it. I considered the 80's King Crimson the version that would least likely offend my wife, who dislikes dissonance, intensity, and improvisation. She begged me to put on headphones almost immediately. The Improv that opens the set, "The = Entry of the Crims" is powerful and majestic, even if it serves mostly to build to crescendo before leading into Larks Tongues in Aspic III. Advance worries have been that this version of Crimson does not do much improv. While it is true that most of what we hear on this record is bsed around songs that are found on previous records, the songs form the basis for playing that the studio albums do not anticipate. In the liner notes, Robert singles out 'definition' as the principle for remastering the concert. I think it is precisely this definition, separating the various instrumental parts and bringing them clearly forward, which causes me to hear these songs in an entirely new way. The studio albums were slickly blended sheets of sound, befitting the co-operative ideals of the 80's Crimson. The whole point was to sublimate individual talents in service of the music as a whole. While that was a worthy project, it is fascinating to see this foursome re-defined as a players' group, every musician contributing chioce moments of excellence to a furious whirlwind of avant-garde rock. Bill Bruford is allowed to batter away for almost two minutes before Indiscipline really gets started. He does some marvellous work opening "Waiting Man." as well. The version of Lark's Tongues in Aspic II on this record shows the 80's band reclaiming Crimson history for itself, in it's own distinctive way. Tracks like Industry and Dig Me remind us of the often-overlooked second side of Three of a Perfect Pair, which can often be written off as an afterthought of studio noodling, but are here highlighted as core songs for a Crimson that still exels at instrumental eccentricity and intensity. As a listener, I have not yet heard any live 80's Crimson aside from the three songs presented on the last disc of the Frame by Frame set. I do not buy bootlegs. If you have already heard bootlegs or concerts from this period, perhaps you will not be nearly as impressed as I am. Still, I can only heartily recommend Absent Lovers. Knowing ET'ers, however, I expect your orders are already placed. The DGM collectors club has existed for some time without a name in this little forum. I like it!!! Eric J. Thorson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:16:48 -0400 From: Michael Kelly Subject: IMPORTANT! Info re:In Store Signing in Boston Just saw an advert in a Boston paper for the 6/27 autograph signing at Tower Records. The advert states that those wishing to get into the autograph session must have a "laminate" obtained by purchasing either "Absent Lovers - KC Live in 84" or "ProjeKCt 2 - Space Groove". I would guess that some folks will have both releases already? It's too bad Tower would not allow any KC related purchase as entry to the autograph session. Just thought I'd let you know. "Be seeing you........" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 18:59:33 EDT From: XENOMANIAC at aol dot com Subject: ONE OF A KIND PAINTING FOR SALE FOR SALE: FRIPP AUTOGRAPHED 4FTX4FT PAINTING OF THE INSIDE COVER OF "COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING" PAINTING WAS COMMISSIONED BACK IN 1979 FOR A RECORD STORE APPEARANCE AND CONCERT OF FRIPPERTRONICS! THIS IS A 5 STAR ACRYLIC PAINTING ! PLEASE RESPOND TO: XENOMANIAC at AOL dot COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:32:27 -0400 From: Gabe_Camacho at usccmail dot lehman dot com (Gabe Camacho) Subject: Back Catalog Re-Masters What's the current word on further re-masters of the classic 70's albums like Larks' Tongues, Starless, or Red? (In other words, how much longer do we have to wait?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:43:19 -0500 From: Eric Kirchner Subject: Survey data, DGM club & Exposure Very interesting ET survey results -- they surprised me regarding structured versus free-form Crimso in light of the second survey on period tastes. Considering that most people like the '72-'74 era, I would have thought there was more interest in unstructured KC. Anyway, good job putting up the surveys! Suggestion for a new survey (after #6) -- if you could recommend 2 albums from KC members other than KC releases, what would they be? As far as the DGM club idea, I think it's a good one (especially considering the overhead of producing this sort of thing). I probably won't join up if it's just live performances (not a huge fan of concert albums), but I would be interested in alternate studio takes. I highly suggest that this be opened up to other DGM artists -- I think that it will provide more bang for the front-loaded outlay. Also, a prospective list of stuff under consideration for release would be a great motivator... On a different track, I received Exposure for a Father's Day present and after a couple of listens, I like! It's a bit uneven, but where it 'hits', it hits hard. Regards, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:43:17 +0100 From: "Tim Meadowcroft" Subject: The Drive To $175.... Reading the recent "$175 buys me instant happiness" special (me too BTW), I was surprised to see how many people asked for more "Solo Frippertronics" (I take it this is meant to be different from "Soundscapes"). I really enjoy what I consider to be the only "Solo Frippertronics" album (Let The Power Fall, esp. 1984), and find the enforced discipline of a fixed tape loop period really demonstrates Fripps timing and forethought to the max, but most other people I know _really_hate_ this album, even those who can listen to KC normally. My wife can now listen to Neurotica and Indiscipline if need be, but "1984" still drives her up the wall (as does me playing about with a long delay pedal and a Zoom 2020 effects box in a pathetic way [even with headphones only], but I know it would be too much of a conceit to link these two facts... ;^)) Is this what the authors meant, is it a possible first "ET-er's-with-cash only" release ? Questioningly yours Tim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:15:06 -0700 From: "Heilbronner, Mike (I)" Subject: John Medeski & Mellotron Hello For those of you keeping score, John Medeski recently broke out a beauty of a Mellotron during two recent Medeski, Martin & Wood shows in Portland. Before these shows, I wouldn't have mentioned KC and MMW in the same breath. But during some of the many extended improvs, MMW (intentionally or unintentionally) experimented and jammed like the 73-74 versions of KC. I dig MMW and highly recommend them -- although none of their recordings sound anything like KC. Here are some relevant exerpts from a "review" I posted to the MMW Listserver: >>> MMW's music has transformed substantially. Although they still get off plenty on the jazz/funk/groove thang (whatever you want to call it), the improvisations have gone to another level. From the extended improv that opened Saturday's show and continuing through substantial portions of the "Bubblehouse" encore (which sounded nothing like the many live versions I'd seen or heard on tape), MMW brought the music to a new level. I'm sorry to have to throw labels around, but I don't know how else to describe some of the improvs other than to say that MMW >was playing like a power trio. Here's another expression I never thought I'd use to describe MMW: "They rocked!" Serious, dark, atonal, intense -- very intense -- jams. Think of Chris Wood crouching nearly to his knees, soloing with a pick in his >right hand and his left hand as high as possible up the neck of his electric bass. Billy pounding away furiously, but keeping it >interesting with a myriad of time signatures, grooves and percussion gadgets. All the while, John's making strange, non-melodic >noises on the organs/keys or _he's_ pounding away furiously on the piano. This stuff was experimental, but more importantly it was brash. Like all worthwhile improv: sometimes it works; sometimes it >doesn't (a typically moody Mellotron doesn't help matters). In Portland, it was working a lot more than it wasn't. <<< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:21:06 -0400 From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: DGM Site -- Dormant?? Hello, hello, is there anyone there...? Seems like the DGM Web-Site is dormant. If anyone from "over there" is reading this "over here" -- your web site is so out of date that a few newer DGM releases cannot be purchased. Pity really. I thought part of the reason to tour, aside from embracing the reality of live performance, is to help sell records. With DGM, one knows if new releases are sold out on the shelves, DGM is the place to look. But, lo! As the site so so out of date, they're not even be listed to be purchased. Heck, half of the tours are not mentioned either... I've been looking for BLUE everywhere in Boston. None to be found... I wonder how many other potential sales have been lost..? David Kirkdorffer ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 98 11:11:21 +1000 From: "Paul PLATT" Subject: Fripp's wailing sound Greetings ETers Does anyone have a history of Fripp's devices and effects setups to achieve that distinctive sustained sound? With standard run of the mill effects pedals like distortion, sustain etc, what combinations would get you somewhere close? I'm particularly interested in the period from 1969 to just prior to Fripptronics and Eno. Thanks in advance, Regards Paul Platt pplatt at au dot oracle dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:45:09 -0400 From: "Hector Gull" Subject: NEWS: ProjeKCt Two in Toronto. Projekct Two will be at the Guverment July 6th at 08:00 p.m.. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:00:02 -0700 From: Peter Shindler Subject: Used Chapman Stick for sale Hi gang. Only vaguely KC-related, but someone might be interested. I have a 10-string Chapman Stick for sale. It's in great shape, sounds awesome, and comes with a hardshell case and enough wrenches to keep you busy. I'm asking for $850 plus shipping costs from Boston. Please e-mail me if you're interested. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:38:02 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: On Matters Crim Alejandro Gonzalez wrote... > I'm interested in the 70s' prog-rock group Henry Cow. I am > told they made inventive, quite interesting music; but > also that they often took a path which led nowhere. From a > crimsonesque point of view, what would be your opinion > about H.C.? And which record, if any, would you recommend? I'm not sure what the bit about the 'path that led nowhere' means, but Henry Cow belonged to another arm of that many-tentacled beast called progressive rock during the 1970s. However, their version was much less concerned with the usual bombast and warbling that certain other bands immersed themselves in and chose instead to pursue a path more closely associated with freeform jazz. From a Crimso point of view, almost nothing they did overlaps with what you are familiar with. In point of fact, the band's usual spokesman and drummer Chris Cutler is pretty much dismissive of all types of music more traditionally viewed as being 'prog'. At least part of that attitude (I feel) was down to Henry Cow being part of an overtly political musical movement called Rock In Opposition (RIO) and viewed almost everyone else as being bourgouis in either attitude or achievement. But don't let all this put you off - they were a *great* band and could match anyone of their day for invention. They eventually merged with another more 'traditional' band, Slapp Happy, and started to veer towards a more song-oriented structure at times, giving many people a convenient introduction point to their music. If I were to nominate a record to start listening to, I'd pick 'In Praise Of Learning'. Kevin Rowan wrote... > I found neither. I did find, however, a KC bootleg called > Pandemonium. The first track is ITCOTCK, done for a BBC > radio broadcast (complete with English DJ intro). The > other songs were recorded at the Plumpton Festival in > August of '69. The songs are; The Plumpton show is probably one of the most bootlegged shows I've ever heard. Observant readers will of course gather that the entire Plumpton show features on CD #3 of 'Epitaph' and has *far* greater clarity than any other version I could name. Brian T. Perkins wrote... > Are some folks still looking for "The Great Deceiver" . > If so, surf yourselves over to www.ab-cd.com, they list > one for $63 or so!! ...but beware. No comment on the particular company that BRian mentions here, but you'll often find that some of the larger web-based CD sites list releases that have *long* gone out of print. In view of the fact that most of them don't actually carry any stock, they don't have a system that is particularly responsive to items which are currently unavailable. Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:24:20 +1000 From: Evan and Vanessa Thomson Subject: Crimson Women An Australian Woman here: Thanks to the kind responses regarding the Joni thread... it's just interesting to speculate. In regards to women and King Crimson, I can't speak for others but I can speak for myself. My husband is the fan not I. Through saturation, inundation and Robert Fripp quotes cleverly strewn around the house I have slowly but surely come to appreciate and as time goes by enjoy the music. The quotes captured my imagination and whetted my intellectualism. When we first anaylsed and discussed our varying opinions of the music, he asserted that I found the music too 'intellectual' and that the complexity of it is what was anathema too me. My response being that, aurally it was like a cacophony of symphony. I could hear and appreciate the musicianship but I found it 'noisy' and crowded. Too much happening at once. My first real album that 'I' connected with was 'Starless and Bible Black'. So that is my experience with King Crimson and how I came to be a fan too. (Mind you it took three years!) Vanessa j. Thomson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:13:35 -0700 (PDT) From: J Young Subject: Damage! Mark Fenkner, in ET 511, vents a frustration over Damage and it's availability. I looked for over 2 years for the disc with varying degrees of intensity, and eventually got one for $25. I have seen them as low as $20 (but didn't get there in time) which has to be lower than the original offering price for a gold CD. I just wanted to point out that in the last 6 months, three copies of this disc have passed through cellophane square here in seattle. MoongoBoy alerted the list about the first one back in Feb. I found one via their website http://www.cellophane.com/ in April, but was too slow about getting up there. I finally hit paydirt last month. I know they offer used CD searches if you go to the store in person, and if you were to contact them, they might hold a copy of Damage if one comes through. For the conspiracy theorists out there, one might note that the CDs started showing up just after Fripp taught Craft Level I here. another good resource is GEMM.com, which searches a number of online databases. it currently doesn't list _damage_ but it does list several used copies of _Great Deciever_ in the $50-$60 range. By following GEMM, I was able to score a cheap used Great Deciever. Anyway, I hope that info helps you find Damage without breaking Frippy's heart by bootlegging. Shamus machismo at u dot washington dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:32:30 -0500 From: "Rob Murphree" Subject: In response to Adrian's "Burned Fire..." tabs post In ET Digest #511, DEFAULT at prodigy dot net wrote: From: "_DEFAULT" <_DEFAULT at prodigy dot net> Subject: Burned By The Fire We Make I'm looking for the Tablature or Chords to the Adrian Belew song, Burned by the Fire we Make. Any help is appreciated Hello Default! So sorry to post a personal response here but the return address didn't exactly work properly. If you want TABS or any other Adrian Belew information for that matter, please visit the 2 and a half year old Adrian Belew Site. I have a link to the TABS for this song and many others at: http://www.murple.com/adrianbelew/ablink.htm To be more specific, check out my friend Mark's website at: http://members.aol.com/markjx/Burned.htm There's a link back to his site of Tabs at the bottom of this page. I'm not a guitar player but I DO have faith in Mark's abilities. Visit him, tell him hello, and enjoy his site of Tabs (KC, Belew, Gabriel, etc.) And to save time in the future, please visit the Adrian Belew site @: www.murple.com/adrianbelew You'd be surprised at how much info is there. I have aching fingers and bloodshot eyes to prove it. :) -Rob Your Complete Guide to the Twang Bar Rhino King!!! Rob Murphree's Adrian Belew WWW Site http://www.murple.com/adrianbelew (c) 1998 Murple Web Creations ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:38:21 +1000 From: Jamie Lack Subject: Papa bear packaging It's odd that in spite of the effort Tony Levin goes to give us wonderful packaging, some of his consumers end up using jewel cases anyway. This is a case where the ethics of being a consumer are challenged. Tony's explicit aim, Is to produce an alternative package to the jewel box. It costs him much more to do, and has certain disadvantages over a jewel case. So why does he do it? I can't speak for Tony, but I will offer my reasons. The card packaging has a much shorter "out of use" lifecycle than the jewel case. This means that it biodegrades faster. Of course, this also means that if you don't take care of your CD and it's packaging, it may degrade faster "in use" as well. The production of the card packaging uses less chemicals than a jewel box. It offers a unique way of doing artwork. With new possibilities. It takes up less space than a jewel box. Personally, I have not had much trouble with the packaging for World Diary or Caves of the Iron Mountain. It takes a bit of care and a different method of handling, but the discs can be inserted and removed without contacting the disc surface. A simple redesign would see the addition of a protective cloth or synthetic lining, or pouch, that would decrease the friction and reduce scratching. I wonder though, how difficult is it to take a little bit of extra care when handling these great CD's? I treat them preciously. And I suggest that "Peter Allen" should learn a little about the consequences of disposable consumerism. (Especially environmental) The throwaway attitude really is nasty. Shame Shame Shame. I encourage Tony to continue with his current attitude towards packaging. There is not enough of this kind of thought amongst producers and distributors. This sig is presented to you by Food Acid 330 Jamie Lack jlack at auran dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:09:51 +0000 From: "p. little/n. green" Subject: That pesky edit again.... >Wow, I never paid that much attention to that exact spot in >the piece. After some scrutiny, I think it is an attempt to >bring a volume spike under control. Its a very quick >build-up in dynamics after a subtle section. A >limiter/compressor was probably being used to keep out what >might have been some distortion on the tape. It might have >been caught at the mastering stage. That would be the only >reason to have that much compression that hard. So it might >have been done very quickly. >Pure speculation on my part :) To continue the speculation (before Toby nips it!) ... what it sounds like, IMHO, is where a chunk was cut out of the piece and it was spliced together at a (musically) appropriate place, i.e. on a corresponding tom hit in the same point in the measure each side of the edit...and the dynamic level after the cut is down a few dB. To my ears, it doesn't sound like hard compression kicking in. I would be curious to hear from the horse's mouth exactly what went on at 03-41! nik ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:10:55 PDT From: "George Khouroshvili" Subject: Re: Bowie, Fripp & Belew >Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:41:49 -0500 >From: "John 0tt" >Subject: Fripp with Bowie <...> >I think of all the Bowie lead players I've seen. Belew was >my favorite. Not just for his playing but also for his >attitude. I've never seen a lead guitarist have so much fun >and Adrian seemed to have on the "Heroes/Stage" tour. >Adrian also appears on the studio album "Lodger" the last of >the first Eno/Bowie trilogy. Yes, and Adrian's participation in DB's 1990 "Greatest hits tour" is also amasing. I have a CD bootleg (collection of Bowie's live recordings 1972-90) and Belew plays on the meddley Space Oditty / Ashes To Ashes. He's done a wonderful guitar solo there which sounds a little bit like Fripp's "heavenly music". I wonder if there any complete live recordings from this period are available. I think that it would be very interesting. All best wishes, George ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:20:15 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: ranting >From: "p. little/n. green" > >And while I'm >ranting, maybe King Crimson, via (Fripp's) admirable >disassociation with the "prog" label, is ironically one of >the only well-known ("prog") bands who have lived up to the >possibilities of how that genre of music should have >developed. Make that the ONLY one.... Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:43:38 +0000 From: Rupert Loydell Subject: Re: Henry Cow Henry Cow are nothing like KC to my ears, coming from a place much nearer jazz and sounding more like Soft Machine than anyone else. The ranks at various times included guitar maestro Fred Frith, Robert Wyatt on percussion, Lindsay Cooper's exceptional bassoon playing, Chris Cutler's fine drumming and the whole of Slapp Happy [inclouding singersongwriter Peter Blegvad on guita an, Dagmar Krause singing]. I'd start with UNREST, which I find the most accessible; and I'd also check out LEGEND, their first [both on CD on East Side in the USA] . If you're into improv then find CONCERTS which is a pretty strange double LP now out on CD from, I think, These/Recommended. IN PRAISE OF LEARNING and WESTERN CULTURE I find less satisfactory: they are very overtly political, dogmatic sets of music [i dont mind their political slant, just turgid music] - but thats only my opinion. KC listeners might prefer early Material [Frith + Laswell and others], or the Massacre power-trio, which both remind me of a less-gamelan sounding 80s KC; and should also check out the wonderful Cassiber and Art Bears. The latter a smaller unit after the demise of Henry Cow, the former Cutler and some European musicians playing half-improvised, hald studio-composed music, often with lyrics/texts by the likes of Thomas Pynchon. Certainly, with the exception of the hard-funk of Material, and the frenetic Massacre, these bands are much more 'chamber-rock' sounding than most KC; they do share an inventive concern with texture/sound, and great guitar and percussion work. But be warned some people find Dagmar Krause's singing as gruesome as I find Belew's :) Rupert Loydell If you get the ReR Recommended catalogue, [website: www.megacorp.u-net.com] you'll find a whole world of European progrock/improv music from the 70s thru to the present. It's great stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:16:54 +0000 From: chriss at glass dot co dot uk Subject: Frippenbowie, Loudness Dear all, two things: With reference to the recollection of Fripp chuckling away with David Bowie over how good Adrian Belew was: Tony Visconti said in an interview in International Musician that at the show - Madison Square Garden? - the Fripp was 'seriously pissed' at how Belew was able to generate all those sounds with a Strat that had seen better days and a knackered amplifier, when Fripp 'had spent thousands on all these synthesisers' which I took at the time to be a reference to the 'Skysaw' business that Eno started up (see The Edge's 'Eternal Guitar' for later development). Visconti was quite adamant on the matter and said that Fripp could barely speak for anger and resentment, which probably goes to show that none of us should judge a book by its' cover. Whether our Bob was happy, sad or trying to get something out from between his teeth is presumably now lost in the happy current of time. DMEND in the previous newsletter hit upon my one problem with KC and frequently with the performances of Fripp - the volume. Call me all kinds of weakling, but when the volume reaches a certain level, which may well be different for all of us, I can no longer make out what's going on. I saw the Discipline band four times during their lifetime; on two occasions, Her Majesty's Theatre and the Guildford Civic, local legislation prevented them from turning the amplifiers to eleven and they remain amongst the best musical experiences I've had. The two other occasions were subject to no such restrictions and it was simply painful and unintelligible. At one point I and a friend retreated to the stairs outside the building in the hope that a substantial brick wall would prove sufficient filter to be able to make out some sort of detail in the noise. The music, I hope we'd all agree, is quite powerful enough and doesn't need the 'empty calories' of excessive volume to give it presence. I know certain things only happen at higher volume levels but that only relates to what's happening on stage. What ends up in amongst the audience doesn't need the additional distortion of a PA cracking up. All the band took pains to be in tune with eachother, but their efforts were rendered useless by the way in which it was impossible to tell what note was being played. On a selfish thread I also don't want to lose my hearing: no amount of intelligent listening will compensate for simply not being able to hear the ruddy stuff. p.s. Type loud when you flame me, my hearing's half-shot already. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:15:48 +0100 From: Keith Burns Subject: Eric Tamm Book Spotted in Edinburgh Spotted a second-hand copy of Eric Tamm's "Robert Fripp - From King Crimson to Guitar Craft" paperback here in Edinburgh. Looked in pretty good condition. The shop is: Till's Book Shop 1 Hope Park Crescent Edinburgh EH8 Scotland U.K. Tel: (0)131 667 0895 Sorry, forgot to check the price, but it's probably around 4UKP. Ask me nicely and I may be able to grab it for you! K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:56:59 +0100 From: "mark" Subject: Network > 3'08 North Star > 1'16 Water Music I > 6'40 God Save The King > 4'53 Under Heavy Manners >I thought there was also a version of Here Comes the Flood >on this album. Can anyone confirm this? I used to have a copy of this and in my memory Water Music was a Frippertronic intro to Here Comes The Flood which WAS on the disc . I also used to have a strange 12" with a german version of here comes the flood - I got this free with some peter gabriel thing or other. Hope this helps a little - I had these when I was a teenager (I'm now 31) nd much time has passed. mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:15:46 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re: KC, an American band That doesn't factor into it this time. The entire idea of anniversary concerts is to remember that time 20/30/50 years ago. Doing it in San Fransisco would not be doing that at all. I have never heard them say that King Crimson is a democratic band, it's nationality based on how many members come from where (more Americans than English and the moment, therefore it's an american band). In fact, I'm sure they aren't interested in the entire "what nationality is KC" question. They are just folks playing music. Still, they should be playing it here. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:19:04 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re: Fripp's Network EP "Here Comes The Flood" is on there. They've obviously made a typing mistake, or just don't have it. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:21:32 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re: Song for the new millenium Oh I'm sorry! I'd like to apologise for everyone who would like to hear they're favorite KC songs again. It's not like they don't enjoy playing it. It's very apparent from the Live In Japan video that Adrian (taking him for example) loves playing Red. He'd surely be extatic playing Schizoid. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:48:59 -0500 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Education? Hi Music Heads, I am interested in Mr. Fripp's and Mr. Belew's education. Were when and what formal education do these music master minds have? Also any comments on Eno and his studies would be interesting. Thanks in advance....... ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #512 ********************************