Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #511 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 511 Monday, 22 June 1998 Today's Topics: PapaBear Packaging. KC, an American band re: "Oooh!" DGM Subscription Deja Vu Just a few random thoughts.... Henry Cow Re: Tubes Earthbound, again Hearing risk watcher of the skies vs. bboom re: Noticeable edit during B'Boom? Fripp's Network EP Song for the new millenium Australian Tour jazz/rock/kc and wonders of the world... KC/RF etc in Oz. (rumour) Pandemonium KC LP Wallace/Trainor papa bear packaging Fripp with Bowie OFF TOPIC: Bitches Brew Re: ET #509 & Electic Gauchos new release The Great Deceiver Showdown @3:41 (B'boom) Re:What would it take to get KC to Australia? Neal and Jack and MIDI Off-Crimson : On Starting Small P*SSED about Damage! Jazz and Crimson (incorporating Miles, Zappa, et.al.) Watching Concerts Burned By The Fire We Make how about a new comp? Re: Audiophiles/nervous fatigue ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:45:12 +0100 (BST) From: dinosaur Subject: PapaBear Packaging. I have to agree with the post from the last issue of Elephant Talk - although wonderfully original and nicely executed, my only scratched CD's are the ones that come in these cardboard cases - Tony Levin's 'World Diary', the 'Caves' CD and also Trey Gunn's 'The Third Star'. I'm wondering what a good solution would be. Tony Levin says that he doesn't like the design/style of jewel cases, but at least they don't mean that there has to be friction between the CD surface and the case when getting them out ... James. ~ www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:49:05 +0000 From: "p. little/n. green" Subject: KC, an American band >You see, again, I hear they're playing in San Francisco for >their 30th Anniversary gig! Where are you getting this >information!? I'm sure Fripp would get it in England since >they are an English band! Gunn, Belew, Mastelotto and Levin may disagree. If there were any truth in the often repeated statement that KC is a "democratic" organization, and that same standard was applied to the nationality of the band, (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), then KC should describe itself as an American band. If a future KC consisted of a majority of, lets say arbitrarily, Brazilians, there would still be many folk who, trapped hopelessly by the shackles of nostalgia and corporate youth-culture alignment would undoubtedly be wailing about KC losing it's heritage. And while I'm ranting, maybe King Crimson, via (Fripp's) admirable disassociation with the "prog" label, is ironically one of the only well-known ("prog") bands who have lived up to the possibilities of how that genre of music should have developed. About to take cover, Nik Green ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:02:29 PDT From: "Abhi Bungale" Subject: re: "Oooh!" Michael wrote: >Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:51:30 PDT >From: "Michael Irish" >Subject: Gravity of Space >At the conclusion of the first track on Space Groove, >"Space Groove III," the sound "Oooh! Is heard. This sound >might either be a sample or an interjection from the >engineer, as was the case with the Clash's "Armagideon >Time" recording. >It might also be a comment from one of the three musicians, >though whether its Adrian, Trey, or Robert, I have no idea. Actually, it's a sample that's included in the V-Drum synthbank. I played a set a few days ago at our local Guitar Center and noticed that oh-so-familiar "Oooh!". shine on, Abhi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:12:28 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: DGM Subscription Deja Vu Re the current fave rave: check out ET#431. Nuff said. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:50:45 -0500 From: gary dot l dot weimer at awo dot com Subject: Just a few random thoughts.... Hello again. Just a few random thoughts on some of the threads going on. Maybe I'll even catch some flak somehow! As far as women's view of King Crimson, I remember taking my wife to KC on the BEAT tour before I married her. Although she wasn't, and still really isn't, a KC fan, she liked Yes, along with Kansas, and generally any dance music (Motown and disco). She loves the beat, and really gets off on music that does interesting timing changes. Needless to say, she really enjoyed KC when we saw them. I guess we Illinoisans have a soft spot for KC since Adrian hails from Springfield. Anyone else feel the same way? Maybe it's just me, but does anyone get the vague impression sometimes that whatever the "current" incarnation of King Crimson happens to be is a reactive mutation of other current music? In the late '60s, they leaned towards the grandeur of the original art rock bands; the '70s saw them take on a very heavy edge....etc. It seems as though they invent their own version of "pop music" as the mainstream changes. Regarding Fripp playing live with Bowie.. if memory serves me correct, Bowie took Adrian Belew out on the live dates. Adrian met Fripp backstage at one of the shows, where Bowie and Fripp were chuckling about Adrian's reproductions of Fripp's guitar parts; the joke was that he was playing parts that were never intended for live playing. Fripp, according to the article I read, thought it amusing that the parts (including tape loops) were being handled successfully by Adrian (who didn't realize he wasn't supposed to be able to play them). Who knows, maybe Bowie was that catalyst that brought them together. There's a lot of talk going on about what may or may not have had an influence on Fripp and KC, but I'm always on the lookout for new bands that seem to have picked up a few things from them along the way. I hear little hints of KC in bands like Red Hot Chili Peppers and Alice in Chains (especially in "Again" where Jerry Kantrell seems to have gone out of his way to tip his hat to the '70s era of KC). I even caught something by Rage in the Machine that suggested they were paying attention to Fripp & co. when they were young. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:10:12 +0200 From: "Alejandro Gonzalez" Subject: Henry Cow I'm interested in the 70s' prog-rock group Henry Cow. I am told they made inventive, quite interesting music; but also that they often took a path which led nowhere. From a crimsonesque point of view, what would be your opinion about H.C.? And which record, if any, would you recommend? Thanks in advance, Alejandro ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:08:12 -0400 From: anthony evans Subject: Re: Tubes Emory (ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com) wrote in ET #509: >Ray Raupers makes a good point about tubes. Actually, to >audiophiles this is no suprise. Tubes boost the even-order >harmonics in an audio signal, which are pleasing to the >ear. In addition, tubes have an ability to handle musical >transients better than solid state amplifiers.... As for >tubes being obsolete, it will be noted that as of early >1997, the Western Electric corporation was revived for the >sole purpose of making vacuum tubes for the high end audio >industry. Indeed, some of the original engineers who had >built the vacuum tube-making machine tools were hired out >of retirement to get the plant operational! Until very recently, I would have agreed with this post without qualification. However, there have been some recent advances in solid-state technology utilizing the physical modelling of tube/cabinet/speaker behavior by means of fast DSP chips. For instance, the Line 6 company manufactures solid-state guitar amps that faithfully emulate a couple dozen "classic" tube guitar and bass amps, and the street prices of these amps start at well under $1,000 US. To quote from the Line 6 website (http://www.line6.com/12tone.htm): "TubeTone is a physical modeling technology developed by Line 6 to analyze and emulate the effects of tube-based electronic sound amplification and processing circuitry, and model the effects of this circuitry in the digital domain. This technology was developed to allow Line 6 to make a digital guitar system capable of producing the sounds created with tube-based electronics, and augment this classic sound creation process with the flexibility, programmability, and other advantages of a fully digital system. Development of the Proprietary TubeTone Process began with analysis of tube design and performance. Line 6's engineers analyzed the effects of tubes in various conditions typical of guitar amplifier design in order to isolate the factors required to define the performance advantages that tubes have been valued for. Starting from this tube-faithful foundation, the analysis was extended to the other electronic components in the circuitry, so that the effects of the transformers, capacitors, and other electronics were also characterized. Careful attention was also paid to the interaction between the amplification circuitry and the speakers in the systems, as this was also recognized as an essential factor in guitar amplifier sound design." Yes, this is a corporate blurb to be taken with a grain or two of salt. However, I know several pro guitarists - confirmed Marshall tube-amp addicts - who have absolutely fallen in love with the Line 6 amps. This is just the beginning - in terms of the potential of digital audio technology, we are still in the Paleozoic Era. As microprocessors become faster and less expensive, and as modelling techniques are refined with time, I think that affordable solid-state technology will end up matching and probably exceeding tubes in terms of audio quality in very short order. Tony Evans Olasongs Coral Gables, Florida tonyola at netrox dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:26:59 -0700 From: anon01 at juno dot com (Anonymous01 A Anon1) Subject: Earthbound, again I have recently acquired a vinyl copy of Earthbound, and since I'm aware this forum attracts new KC fans all the time, I am willing to make copies onto cassette for anybody with a burning desire to hear it. For the record, I am not doing this to make a profit, but only because I too am an enthusiastic fan. I ask only that you send a blank tape and pay return postage. Reply by private e-mail with the understanding that it may take up to 2 weeks for me to respond, due to my work schedule. Sincerely, ANON1 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:14:13 -0400 From: DMEND Subject: Hearing risk I sit here one week after seeing P2 in Detroit and one thing remains... the ringing in my ears which obliterates the silence. I found that, unfortunately, the volume was so intense that I was unable to hear the music. It does deserve mention that the loudness does in fact result in permanent hearing loss and this, in turn, prevents further enjoyment of any music. This strikes me as more worrisome than any flash going off during a show. If the volume was at a reasonable level then perhaps I could have heard the fine performance and the detailed playing that I read about. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:43:34 -0400 From: amlyle Subject: watcher of the skies vs. bboom has anyone but me noticed that the main drum riff from b'boom is conspicuously exactly the same as the drum riff from the "push" section of "Watcher of the skies" by Genesis? I noticed this while listening to the Three Sides Live version of "Watcher..." which features Bruford. Tell me what you think. Jaxlad jbenfiel at runet dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:51:27 +0300 From: "Jarmo Muukka" Subject: re: Noticeable edit during B'Boom? >Both of us can hear an edit during the drum duet B'Boom on >Thrak which seems to stick out like a sore thumb. I was >wondering whether we were the only people to have noticed >it. It occurs at approximately 3:41 into the track. Yes, I can hear it with my speakers. Actually I was not noticed it before you told about it. I have found different things from DGM-albums. For example there is minor editing error in "Real Life" on Trey Gunn's "One Thousand Years". It happens at 1:04. Someone drops plectra at 2:41 in "Train to Lamy Suite" (1st track) on California Guitar Trio's "Invitation" (this is very easy to notice). A lot of phase errors in "Intergalactic Boogie Express" (this has well recorded tracks too). Fripp's soundscapes have digital noise in many pieces. Soundscapes would be even more enjoyable when technology gets better. I have listened almost all my 32 DGM-albums once very carefully and quite loud. I ranked music and sound. Actually the sound was the main reason I did this. I put down every good and bad things I noticed. I have planned to do this again and write web pages. "Epitaph" disc 3 is the poorest and "The Acoustic Adrian Belew" is the best in sound quality to my taste. From musical point of view "Epitaph" disc 3 is the worst and Fripp's "A Blessing of Tears" is the best DGM-album. This is my opinion and no one can complain about it. JMu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:02:33 +0200 From: "Matthew C. Clarke" Subject: Fripp's Network EP Greetings. I have been looking for many years for a copy of Fripp's EP called Network, described in the Fripp Discography (http://www.elephant-talk.com/discog/fripp/indexs.html) as ... >Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ep 1985 Jun > > Collection EP. 1985 remix versions. > > 12": 85.06 UK Editions EG EGMLP 4 (EP) > 12": 1985 US Editions EG (Jem) EGMLP 4 (EP) > 3'08 North Star > 1'16 Water Music I > 6'40 God Save The King > 4'53 Under Heavy Manners I thought there was also a version of Here Comes the Flood on this album. Can anyone confirm this? More importantly, can anyone suggest where I might get a copy of this EP? If you have one and would you be willing to copy it for me, please email me. ADVthanksANCE. Matt. * ------------------------------------- Matthew C. Clarke http://www.cs.unp.ac.za/staff/matt.html University of Natal, Pietermaritzburg, South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:06:45 +0100 From: Clive Backham Subject: Song for the new millenium To mark the new millenium, starting on 1st Jan 2000 King Crimson will begin performing a song dedicated to the attitudes of their less imaginative fans. The lyrics are as follows (to be sung to a familiar tune): Shall we Do an encore? All the audience scream for more This is the one they all came for 20th century retro song Trad riffs Predictable mire Hippies drugged up getting ever higher From this old stuff they never tire 20th century retro song How can We be freed From their unimaginative greed Nothing they request they really need 20th century retro song. Clive Backham Capita Business Services Ltd. (+44) 1442 872121 clive at capita dot nildram dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:28:16 +1000 From: "Craig Hicks" Subject: Australian Tour For Twenty odd years I have listened to KC records and CD's with great pleasure, seen many bands as they traveled through Melbourne, but never once have I desired to see a band as much as I want to see King Crimson. At least an answer yes or no would be greatly appreciated to all the crimheads in Australia. So please , an answer please. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:12:44 -0400 From: "Stack, Mike" Subject: jazz/rock/kc and wonders of the world... Andy McClelland said: > In response to some of the jazz/rock/kc debate from random people: ... including myself, whose wondering how long 'til it's off topic. :) > > Putting a definition on a genre is something that is fairly > > impossible. > > and > > > It's such a diverse field, it's > > hard to come up with a neat, tidy defintion. > Actually, not only is it possible to define a genre, that's > the whole idea. A genre is formed by clumping a group of > artistic endevours together by certain easily recognizably > characteristics they all share, giving it a name, and > slapping the name on all of 'em. Genres are created for the > record shops and video stores of this world, not for the > artists. Ahh.... but then wouldn't that be constricting as a musician? I am a musician, and I play jazz, and I don't know if I fall into the standard catagorization for it. I think anything created for record stores is kinda not about music, but about money. > > Jazz is a feeling, really. > I disagree. Good is a feeling. A lot of music that would > fall under the heading of "jazz" as defined by the all-music > guide (which is as good a definition as any as far as i'm > concern) is good. It's important not to confuse jazz (or > rock or classical or anything like that) with good (or bad) Ta, I didn't say that in my comment. I don't think all jazz is "good" per se. Jazz music has a certain way to it though, and while Louis Armstrong and Ornette Coleman do completely different things, there's something in the "feeling" of the song that binds them. It's an intangible concept I'm trying to deal with, and I'm hoping my meaning is coming clearly. And dammit, why in God's name do you guys put so much stock in this "all-music guide"?? I keep hearing it brought up, who CARES what someone else thinks? I think KC is very jazz (and very rock for that matter...), but the precious all-music guide might not. Why do I care? > In summation: Despite the prevailing ET opinion, genres are > a cinch to define. They are also silly and for stupid > people. Therefore, it is pointless and inane to quibble > about differences between them. But Andy, I still disagree on this, I don't think genres are easy to define. I see Ornette Coleman as jazz, but Dizzy said it wasn't jazz that Ornette was blowing in the '60s. So what is it? And if it IS record store defined only, well... Borders puts Mark Isham in New Age, Circuit City puts Mark Isham in jazz, and Media Play puts Mark Isham in both (there's a strip near the University of Connecticut (where I go to school..) which contains all three of these...). Now, if genres were created for record stores, why does Mark have two generes in three record stores? And since Media Play last time I was there moved all their Isham CDs to the jazz section, does that make him more jazz than New Wave? Hmm... mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:26:24 +0100 (BST) From: Jim Carter Subject: KC/RF etc in Oz. (rumour) There have been many recent posts asking why KC, or associated fragments, do not play Australia. At the Green Park Soundsacpe (Nov. '96) I spoke (through chattering teeth) to David Singleton, as he manned the merchandising stand while RF went indoors for a hot coffee. He said something to the effect that DGM were planning a soundscape at Ayers rock. Perhaps they re-thought this idea after the reception they recieved in Bath. The Green Park soundscape was the day after I got engaged. The day before I got married I say a soundscape in Salisbury cathederal. If I go to Australia to see Robert perform I am looking at divorce. Jim Carter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:30:53 -0500 From: Kevin Rowan Subject: Pandemonium This past weekend I went to a record convention to try and get a few gems the record stores don't have. I was looking specifically for two things: A CD of A Young Person's Guide and a CD of Genesis Live, with Peter Gabriel (which came out after Foxtrot I think). I found neither. I did find, however, a KC bootleg called Pandemonium. The first track is ITCOTCK, done for a BBC radio broadcast (complete with English DJ intro). The other songs were recorded at the Plumpton Festival in August of '69. The songs are; 1. 21st Century Schizoid Man 2. Get Thy Bearings 3. Devil's Triangle 4. Crimson Blues 5. In the Court of the Crimson King (again). I was stunned when I took it home and listened to it. The quality is not USA, but it's not Earthbound either. While the songs have some stucture to them, they appear as jam sessions. The sound is raw, bluesy, and very energetic. I got it for $20 and I think it's well worth it to hear what KC sounded like live just barely after their first album came out. If you can find this somewhere, I highly recommend it. I also saw, but didn't buy, a CD by Fripp and Eno called ( I think) Beautiful Beasts. I was $45, a bit too much for me at the moment, but I was wondering if anyone had heard of this or owns it. Should I have bought it? Just wondering. Kevin J. Rowan Office Manager/Project Associate American Institute of Biological Sciences - SPARS (703) 834-0812 x100 krowan at aibs dot org When you see beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind is waiting there. -George Harrison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:04:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Marina Salzano Subject: KC LP Anyone interested in this vinyl LP: sealed-red atlantic sd18110 let me know. Marina Salzano p040835b at pb dot seflin dot org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Henry H. Andrews" Subject: Wallace/Trainor Hi ET! To the person in ET #509 who thought that Wallace & Trainor should have covered "21st Century Schizoid Man" and "Evidence", I must say I disagree. While I'm not familiar with "Evidence" (or much Jazz at all, although I'm working on that), I'm much more interested in hearing a piece of music that involves some new concepts than just revisiting an existing piece with only minor changes. I would probably enjoy a Wallace/Trainor "Schizoid Man", but adding in bits of a song that is unfamiliar to me makes the experience more exciting. I also enjoy the contrast between the "Schizoid" sections and Brian Trainor's more flowing keyboard section based on "Evidence". So I find that the combination adds to the whole experience. Of course, your mileage (or kilometerage?) may vary. While I'm discussing this solo project, let me invite everyone who's listened to this CD or other solo projects to contribute reviews to the King Crimson Alumni Discography Project- you can access the page through ET web, or go directly to http://www.concentric.net/~handrews/music/crimsolo/ I haven't put up my review of this album yet, but the album info is there, and I'll catch up pretty soon, hopefully. To everyone who has sent stuff in that hasn't made it up, I'm working through the backlog, as my "real" job has been crazy recently but has finally settled down. So look for updates soon. Thanks! Henry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:01:50 +1000 From: "Peter Allen" Subject: papa bear packaging Hi all, "earthblind, starbound" wrote: >I have a question about BLUE (which is on backorder and so >I'm still waiting for it). Is it packaged in the same >unfortunate way that _From the Caves of the Iron Mountain_ >was? Am I going to have to find another jewel case to keep >the BLUE disc from being scratched up in a week like From >the Caves is (I've already had to pack multiple discs in a >single case to make room for the Caves)? Hear, hear!! Sliding CDs into a cardboard sleeve is not acceptable; it creates static and any trapped dust will scratch the surface. This sort of thing went out with LPs, and good riddance. I too now have to store the CD in an ugly (no artwork) jewel case, next to the nice cardboard sleeve, taking up twice the space. The jewel case has great advantages - it holds the CD securely without surface contact, and protects the artwork. If the case gets scuffed and you're fussy, throw it away, spend 50c on a new one, and you're back to mint condition. If a cardboard case is really desired, the good middle ground is the DigiPak, where the CD is at least sitting properly in a tray (a la THRaKaTTaCK). Still have to buy a plastic cover though, just like the old days, so the cover doesn't wear... Cheers, Peter * -------------------------------------- Peter Allen (pda at melbpc dot org dot au) Melbourne PC User Group * -------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:41:49 -0500 From: "John 0tt" Subject: Fripp with Bowie >>> quote >>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:19:06 -0400 From: Tom Law Subject: Fripp live with Bowie? I have always assumed that Fripp never performed live with Bowie after either "Heroes" or "Scary Monsters". Am I correct? <<<< Yes you are correct > quote >> If so, why didn't he? One would think that Bowie would have wanted to do the same stuff on the road that he had just done in the studio. <<< end quote After the Heroes album, Bowie toured with Adrian Belew on lead guitars. It was great show. Adrian was quite animated and really seemed to enjoy it. I enjoyed his playing on that tour a lot. The live album "Stages" is from that tour. I don't think Bowie toured immediately after Scary Monsters but did tour after Let's Dance with Stevie Ray Vaughn on Lead guitar on the first leg of the tour. Stevie played on the Let's Dance record. Perhaps if Bowie went on the Road after "Scary Monsters" he would have toured with Robert Fripp. Stevie asked for more money so Bowie replaced him with Earl Slick on the second leg. I saw the leg with Earl. I also saw Earl play on the Diamond Dogs tour and the Station to Station tour. Neither used Ebows for the Heroes solo as far as I remember. But it was done OK. I saw the Wallflowers yesterday at the Tibetan Freedom Concert and the Lead Guitarist did not use a ebow either. He had a hollow body guitar that he help in front of his Marshall Amp and used the feedback for the sustaining lead. I still like the Fripp Ebow solo on Heroes the best. Mick Ronson did the next best job using an Ebow at the Freddie Mercury "Concert for Life" tribute. I also like Reeves Gabriels solo, but he takes it somewhere completely differ than the Fripp solo. I think of all the Bowie lead players I've seen. Belew was my favorite. Not just for his playing but also for his attitude. I've never seen a lead guitarist have so much fun and Adrian seemed to have on the "Heroes/Stage" tour. Adrian also appears on the studio album "Lodger" the last of the first Eno/Bowie trilogy. later john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:38:45 -0400 From: Brad Davison Subject: OFF TOPIC: Bitches Brew Refering to ET #506, FRANKYORK at aol dot com posted: "However, I can think of many vinyl recordings that fail abysmally on CD including the frequently E.T. referenced BITCHES BREW by Miles Davis." Frank, how do you figure? Is it sound quality or the program of these long "slabs" of improv laid over two discs? It works well for me; it travels with me regularly. When I'm squaring off against a chess opponent, I'm on my home turf if I can catch a smoke, light a candle for war and put on Bitches Brew; that person's meat. Anyway, it works for me and I know that's "good" for my needs. I'm just wondering how you come to that conclusion. Thanks Toby, Brad Leesburg, VA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:51:00 +0200 From: Thierry Wyss Subject: Re: ET #509 & Electic Gauchos new release Regarding the post about papa bear packaging in ET509 Yes, BLUE is packaged the same way as "From the Caves of the Iron Mountain". It is great, especially if you like jazz ... Bruford is as good as ever, Levin too, but Botti adds a very special dimension to this record ... much more than in "IF SUMMER HAD ITS GHOSTS" with Gomez & Towner. But this is only my personal taste ... Unfortunately it does not contain the same brilliant multimedia part (DGM should take a view of a proactive multimedia enhancement on a CD, not just a catalog). However it is far the pocket is far as being fabulous as is Tony Levin's "World Diary" (which musical content is also great). In the World Diary however the packaging can cause a little problem since it is not plastified as the two others. But I completely disagree with you. I went to the exhibition of Tony Levin in Sierre (Switzerland) and he is an artist and I am grateful that he is not using these ugly jewel cases. Of course I would not be happy if my thousands of CDs were packaged the same way ... but not all artists have the same interest in the outlook of their product ... > I have a question about BLUE (which is on backorder and so > I'm still waiting for it). Is it packaged in the same > unfortunate way that _From the Caves of the Iron Mountain_ > was? Am I going to have to find another jewel case to > keep the BLUE disc from being scratched up in a week like > From the Caves is (I've already had to pack multiple discs > in a single case to make room for the Caves)? I have received the prerelease of the Electric Gauchos "Blue Orb" through Steve Ball. The official release date is at the end of this month. I hope you will be able to listen to some tunes on their webpage that you can access form the ET webpage in link2. I can only highly recommend it. I have also received a few weeks ago the Brian Trainor/Ian Wallace "Take A Train" and though I like it I was a little bit confused with the link of "21 Century Schizoid Man" and Monk's "Evidence", I fully agree with Michael Irish post in ET509 > First reactions to the Brian Trainor/Ian Wallace "Take a > Train" recording: It doesn't so much remind me of fusion > jazz, an example being Chick Corea's "Return to Forever" > recordings; but rather earlier acoustic ensembles, such as > McCoy Tyner's quartet. Ian Wallace's playing reminds me > more of Elvin Jones than Billy Cobham or Tony Williams. > I'm not sure the arrangement of "21 Century Schizoid Man" > and Thelonious Monk's "Evidence" entirely works. I would > have preferred to hear covers of both pieces rather than > arranging the two into one work: Still, an intriguing > idea. It looks like Ian Wallace is doing well and I hope > that he continues to record, and if possible, tour! > DGM collector club: I believe that lately the interest showed in official bootlegs like ABSENT LOVERS - Live in Montreal 1984, B'BOOM / OFFICIAL BOOTLEG LIVE IN ARGENTINA, EPITAPH and in the future LADIES ON THE ROAD shows that we are many to be ready to support financialy this project. I hope that the survey will show the same interest. Meanwhile I hope Martin Walsh Tribute will be a success for him. Regards Thierry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:04:38 -0700 From: "Brian T. Perkins" Subject: The Great Deceiver Dear all, Are some folks still looking for "The Great Deceiver" . If so, surf yourselves over to www.ab-cd.com, they list one for $63 or so!! Happy hunting! Brian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:59:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Marshall Subject: Showdown @3:41 (B'boom) Wow, I never paid that much attention to that exact spot in the piece. After some scrutiny, I think it is an attempt to bring a volume spike under control. Its a very quick build-up in dynamics after a subtle section. A limiter/compressor was probably being used to keep out what might have been some distortion on the tape. It might have been caught at the mastering stage. That would be the only reason to have that much compression that hard. So it might have been done very quickly. Pure speculation on my part :) |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| nICKm http://www.izap.com/~pinnacle No fear of "hard" \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:46:49 -0700 From: Lewis Southers Subject: Re:What would it take to get KC to Australia? I don't know if this has been mentioned before, and I don't know how feasible it is but what the hell, it's just a thought. I was on the Marillion Email list a coupla years ago and the American fans were bummed because it did not look like Marillion was going to be able to play the states for financial reasons. Someone on the list organized a pledge drive, more or less, to raise money to get Marillion to the states. Whoever donated over a certain amount (I think it was $25) got an autographed copy of their new CD, which was at that time unreleased. I don't know how much money they ended up collecting, but they had about $15,000 collected at one point, I believe. Likewise, I don't know if Marillion ever made it to the states, but I thought this might be of interest to the potential audients down under. Peace -Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 10:47:37 PST From: Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au Subject: Neal and Jack and MIDI G'day all Well I've done another one. My latest attempt at MIDI-izing King Crimson is almost complete. I've done all the parts bar the vocals and the guitar solo parts. Of course you are supposed to sing the vocals and play the guitar solos yourself. Of course for those that are too embarrassed to do this I will eventually add the guitar solos and vocal melody. So if you want a copy of my midi version of Neal and Jack and Me before Toby manages to put it on the web page drop me a line and I'll email it to you. BTW it will sound pretty good if you listen to it with a Yamaha MU-80 or similar sound module. (Sound blaster or similar is OK but modules rule). Regards to all Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:03:35 -0400 From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Off-Crimson : On Starting Small I came across this quote from Paul Klee, and I thought its content would interest Fripp/Crimson enthusiasts. "It is with great difficulty and great necessity to have to start with the smallest. I want to be as though new-born, knowing nothing, absolutely nothing, about Europe; ignoring poets and fashions, to be almost primative. Then I want to do something very modest; to work out by myself a tiny formal motive, one that my pencil will be able to hold without technique. One favorable moment is enough. The little thing is easily and concisely set down. It's already done! It was a tiny, but real, affair and someday, through the repetition of such small, but original, deeds, there will come one work upon which I can really build." P1-2-3 explained! David (no, my brother does the web-page) Kirkdorffer UNDO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:22:26 -0500 From: "Fenkner, Mark" Subject: P*SSED about Damage! Dear Team, Am I the only person frustrated by trying to obtain a copy of Damage? Yes, I have seen the recent copy being sold for an outrageous sum but I and am unsure if I should pay the price. I have always been against bootlegging, but after a year of trying to obtain this CD, I am starting to think that if the record companies will not provide the opportunity for consumers to purchase the product, then consumers should distribute it themselves. Hey, I have a large CD burner that will do stacks of 50 CDs at a time. Anyone interested? ;-) Give me Damage, or burn baby burn!!! Sincerely, Mark Fenkner mark dot fenkner at wilcom dot com ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jun 98 15:57:00 -0400 From: christopher dot anderson at gsa dot gov Subject: Jazz and Crimson (incorporating Miles, Zappa, et.al.) Miscellaneous threads from the list coalesce: 1) "Epitaph", (volumes 1, 2, 3, & 4), despite some poor recording quality, is a revelation as to the improvising abilities of that first band. I will say that the first album loomed large in my legend, along with "White Light/White Heat", "Absolutely Free", and "Ummagumma". I don't think that one can deduce the ability of those musicians to improvise from the "Crimson King" album, however. These live recordings are beyond price. 2) The improvs on "Epitaph" remind me of the improvs of the Mothers of 1967-69. Compare the "Beat the Boots" series of recordings to this edition of Crimson; even the timbre of Ian McDonald's sax is similar to that of Ian Underwood and Bunk Gardner. This is rock-jazz, or jazz-rock, quite other than Blood, Sweat & Tears or Ten Wheel Drive. Improvising in a rock context, with jazz comprehension, not throwing a horn section onto a rock band. 3) These improvs are different from those of the Miles Davis band of the time (Shorter, Corea, Holland, DeJohnette), which were oriented toward an avant-garde jazz feel, despite electric piano. 4) The 1973-74 Crimson has always reminded me of the 1973-75 Miles Davis guitar band. Compare the "Great Deceiver" to "Dark Magus", "Agharta", or "Pangaea". Coming from different bases, ending up in a similar place. 5) The 1969 Mothers and the 1969 Crimson are similar in the combination of intricate composition with improvisation. 6) The association of British free improv musicians with King Crimson is as strong as the association of "prog-rock" musicians with KC. Check out Keith Tippett, who plays with Elton Dean (of Soft Machine) and Paul Dunmall and others. Or Jamie Muir, who is as well (or as poorly) known for his work with Derek Bailey as for his work with Fripp. Q.E.D. King Crimson cannot be understood and properly appreciated without including improvisation as an integral part of the music. Christopher Anderson (sorry for the fractured logic here) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:37:57 -0700 From: christie byun Subject: Watching Concerts I was watching the ToaPP Live in Japan laserdisc the other night. Get this disc, I mean it. Not only is it an awesome concert, but the sound is crystal clear. You can hear in great detail (I was using headphones) every aspect of each song, all the fantastic string bending noise making soaring sustained reverb of the guitar work, and separately too! By the way, I'd like to state that Thela Hun Ginjeet is unequivocally my favorite song of the '80s band, perhaps even overall. It's glorious guitar noise and I'd love an entire album's worth of improvs on this song alone (hint hint, Robert). Seeing might not be necessary for listening, but I just love it. I know Robert doesn't like being under the spotlight, but I have to say that part of the fun of attending a concert is watching the music being performed. It's amazing to me that the recorded piece of art that I listen to on a daily basis is actually being performed in front of my own eyes. Let me try explain. The little bits or "mistakes" you hear on an album bridge the gap between art and fantasy and the reality of the recording studio. When I listen to XTC's "Dear Madam Barnum", it's perfectly evocative of so many images--the cuckolded husband performing the sad circus ritual of his married life. But at the very end you can hear someone take a breath and it's such an amazing thing--it brings to mind that this isn't just a piece of wondrous fantasy that's fallen from heaven. That breath makes me realize that this music is being created and performed by musicians in a recording studio; it makes me think of the guitars, basses, drums, and various equipment behind the work. And it's amazing because I have a guitar and I stare at this box of wood, this acoustical marvel that is a means of expression. I can't believe it's through these instruments that musicians convey such profound and beautiful emotions that I may have but cannot possibly express in such refined terms. That's why I enjoy watching a performance. It closes the ontological gap between the art and the actuality. It's somewhat akin to going to museums and looking at rough drafts of novels you love--with all the corrections, changes, and coffee spills. You won't be able to go in and look at a computer disk and feel the same way. The process of creation is beautiful to observe because through it, you can try to perceive and understand the inner workings, the development of ideas, the conception of genius. After seeing a performance, I love and appreciate even more something that I might not have understood or even have disliked before. I mean, how could I hate "Beating of Hearts" after I saw Andy Partridge sing it? He seemed so, well...so sincere! And seeing Projekct 2 made me enjoy and appreciate Thrak even more. It wasn't just hellacious noise to baffle my ears. I still don't know what it is, but that doesn't matter now. It makes no sense, yet it makes perfect sense. But what do I know? All I can say is, thank you, Robert. Christie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:32:53 -0500 From: "_DEFAULT" <_DEFAULT at prodigy dot net> Subject: Burned By The Fire We Make I'm looking for the Tablature or Chords to the Adrian Belew song, Burned by the Fire we Make. Any help is appreciated ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:17:45 -0400 From: Public User Subject: how about a new comp? dear frippheads.anyone out there think it would be cool to see a comp. similar to the SCHIZOID e.p. with ALL the manifestations of LARKS TONGUE 1-3 (incl. live renditions etc.)? christian in cinti.(christen at freewwweb dot com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:38:57 -0400 From: "Fisher, Troy" Subject: Re: Audiophiles/nervous fatigue I don't know too much about this nerve fatigue thing, but I have noticed that if I listen to my CD-player all day long, I find that I am slowly increasing the volume over the course of the day, and if I think it's too loud, I turn it back down, but then it sounds too quiet. In Pioneer Audio's deafness warning, they point out that when listening to digital audio for an extended period of the ears will begin to lose sensitivity, causing the listener to turn the volume up to higher levels, so they advise turning the volume to a comfortable level and leaving it no matter what. Of course this is for a car CD player, and if I turn it to a comfortable level, and go driving with the vents open, windows down, sunroof off, at 60MPH, I'm going to need to turn it up, eh? Back over, there is strong evidence that on a good system with well-guided tracking, vinyl blows away the sound of a CD. I've been using vinyl for the last 10 years, and I've found it to cost less than CD, look cooler than CD, and sound better than CD. I think this is because if you have a digital recording, it sounds great and loses extraneous noise because of the digital up/down method of reproducing the sound, it also mechanizes the sound and causes it to be up/down to the ear. But with a vinyl record, especially one that hasn't been pressed, but was instead carved on a lathe (as Thomas Edison did on his cylindrical records), the sound was carved, exactly as it was played by the master and creates really sweet fidelity. But that's my opinion. In the 40's, Plymouth made an in-dash record player and 45 specially made records. Who's for making our own 12-in car record changer? ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #511 ********************************