Reply-To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #51 Discipline, Number 51 Friday, 28 August 1992 Today's Topics: Re: Songwriting in King Crimson Re: New Crimson Live Boxed Sets New Boxes Re: Discipline #50 Re: Discipline #50 Lyrics Re: New Crimson Live Boxed Sets Re: rec.music.cd post From rec.music.cd [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 14:47:41 PDT From: malcolm at wrs dot com (Malcolm Humes) Subject: Re: Songwriting in King Crimson pvallado at sdcc13 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid ) asss: >Any idea who actually wrote the music for the group? Yes, I know the entire >band is given credit for the music and Adrian Belew was credited for the >lyrics ( for the last three albums ). I guess what I'm really asking is by >what process was the music created? Did Fripp write the music, which Belew >then set to words, or was it more complicateed than that? My comments are really only in regard to the 80's Crimson. The 70's Crimson, especially around 1972-73 improvised live a lot and then created songs from restructuring those jams. But with regard to the 80's band: My impression is that it was a group process. And that in at least some cases the music preceded the words. I think this is one of Eric Tamm's criticisms in his Fripp book - that these aren't songs writen as words and music together, that they are music with words crafted to fit, which he implies somehow that this lessens the quality of the work - or at least that's how I took his comments. I've heard some outtakes or masters from 3oaPP that were pre-vocals, and it appears that they explored a lot of changing tempos and parts to pull it all together. I think the composing was a group process, but no doubt was strongly driven by Robert and Adrian, probably primarily so. I think Bruford was pretty much told what or how to play at times - Tony was probably left to find whatever he could do best. - malcolm at wrs dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 15:04:43 PDT From: Dennis dot Montgomery at EBay dot Sun dot COM (Dennis Richards Montgomery) Subject: Re: New Crimson Live Boxed Sets > 1) Live 72-74 - Four Discs, due Sept/Oct 1992 > 2) Live 69-71 - Three or Four Discs (I forget exactly), due 1993 > 3) Live 81-84 - Three Disc, due 1994 Fan-smeggin-tastic!!! 4 discs from 72-74!!! I'll be raving and drooling till October :) KingCrimson*ELP*Marillion*Tull*Sepultura**GentleGiant*Minutemen*Beatles*Fish* *Morbid Angel**TerracedGarden**Eloy**801**PFM*KateBush**Entombed*Greenslade** * H U "Reality stirred me, my angel had heard me, the prayer had been answered a n a reprieve had been granted. The dream was now broken, though woozy w i and woken, at least safe and sound asleep on the Greyhound. k v One More Red Nightmare" King Crimson '74 and Forever! w e Dennis Richards Montgomery:Software Engineer:Sun Microsystems i r n sZero*Aragon*CelticFrost*VanDerGraaf*SadLovers&Giants*Doors*Genesis*IQ*Rush*d ~ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 15:40:25 EDT From: gwl%wave3_1 at concert dot net (Glenn Lea) Subject: New Boxes While I applaud Fripp's intentions to finally make quality live recordings of King Crimson available, I wish he would reconsider his format -- multiple disc sets (3+) are EXPENSIVE and will only be found in the collections of critics (who get them free), radio stations (who should) and fans with too much money to burn. While I spend far more on CDs than I should, but no way will I put down $35-50 for 4 or 5 hours of _one_ incarnations of the band. I don't need or even WANT that much anyway. Why doesn't he choose the best of each incarnation and put out a single or double CD for each? If they're strong enough, they might even sell well to the general rock public and Robert will make some money. Not too long ago, artists got criticized for putting out double LPs! Why is it that now everybody think the world needs a 4-disc set? [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 18:35:59 PDT From: pvallado at sdcc13 dot UCSD dot EDU (Paolo Valladolid ) Subject: Re: Discipline #50 What is ICE? Anyway, the machine cut off my last letter. I was just writing about a progressive instrumental group named _Djam Karet_. The group is made up of Gayle Ellett - guitar,guitar synth,keyboards,tape manipulations,percussion Mike Henderson - guitar,percussion,keyboards (sorry, forgot this one's name) - bass,percussion Harry Osborne, Jr - drums, keyboards, tape manipulations For an unsigned band, they have acquired a considerable following. Most of their self-produced record sales come from outside the US. What's the music like? Start with Pink Floyd and King Crimson, stir well, add 20th century composer (Bartok, Cage,etc.) weirdness, and garnish with musique concrete. Some of the melodies are reminiscent of Floyd, but the Crimson influence is very strong. The odd meters, ethnic rhythms, even Belew-like feedback tricks, are all here. This music, IMHO, stands out from other instrumental rock in that some songs are long, all-percussion jams with no guitar. It's pretty hard to describe this group, but Electronic Musician once called _Djam Karet_ the "best unsigned band in the world". Anyway, check them out!!! Cheers, Paolo [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Subject: Re: Discipline #50 From: Ken Stuart Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 20:07:08 PDT Hello, I am glad to see the live disks being released; the two KC commercial live albums are both mediocre IMHO (USA and Earthbound; the former in performance and the latter in sound). However, not all KC boots are bad sound quality; "Book of Saturday" is as good sound quality as any commercial live CD -- it is from a much "booted" FM broadcast in 1974.... however, it is a good but not highly improvisational performance (unlike what was described in Discipline #50). Ken ---- kstuart at waffle dot sns dot com (Ken Stuart) Systems'n'Software Free Public Access BBS --- (510)623-8652 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 14:28:09 EDT From: Rob Petrone Subject: Lyrics Do we have an FTP site for this list, or a server where we could access lyrics and stuff. I'd really like the lyrics to Great Deceiver. That chorus is driving me crazy. What's Crimson's hardest rock sounding album? ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: __+__ I was thinking, 'This is :: Rob Petrone :: :: (+ + +) a dangerous place...' :: Temple University :: :: [[I]] This is a dangerous place ------> Philadelphia, PA :: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: ptt00 at duts dot ccc dot amdahl dot com ( 179 Peter Thelen) Subject: Re: New Crimson Live Boxed Sets Date: 26 Aug 92 17:14:22 GMT In article <1992Aug24 dot 193506 dot 7506 at rti dot rti dot org> rga at rti dot rti dot org writes: >The new ICE announced that Fripp is preparing THREE new live boxed >sets from his personal archives, some of which represents material >that has not surfaced before anywhere. > >1) Live 72-74 : 4 discs due Oct/Nov 1992 !!!!!!!!!!!!! >2) Live 69-71 : 3(or 4) discs due 1993 !!!!!!!! >3) Live 81-84 : 3 discs due 1993/1994 Whoa ! Wait a minute.... I'm looking ICE issue #66 (september 92) right now and it says (I quote): "Next year should see the series continue with a DOUBLE CD covering the band's live performances from 1969-1971, with late '92 or early '93 planned for a TWO DISC package covering the Bill Bruford, Adrian Belew, and Tony Levin years 1981-1984...." Double means Two (2), not 3(or 4). - ptlk [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: gwl (Glenn Lea) Subject: Re: rec.music.cd post Date: 26 Aug 92 11:57:01 GMT General rant, inspired by the announcement of three 3-4 CD live sets from King Crimson: Why has the 3+ disc box set becoming "de rigeur"? For years I've been hoping for a live release of the 80s incarnation of King Crimson, but I doubt that I'll be willing to spend $35-50 for a bloated 3 disc set. How can you justify 4-5 HOURS of live recordings of a band that only managed 3 studio albums in its lifetime? A double CD provides 2 and a half hours of playing time -- more than most concerts. That should be plenty to satisfy your audience AND your ego. I remember when groups were criticized for having the gall to release double LPs (e.g. Cream's "Wheels of Fire"), many of which would now fit on a SINGLE CD. Wake up, artistes, you are pricing yourself to a very small group of fanatics with money to burn. Sure, the critics may rave, but they get their copies free. It's about time this "boxmania" stopped. Replies via email, please -- I'm not on this newsgroup. -------------------------------------------------- Glenn Lea - reply to gwl at wavetracer dot com Wavetracer, Inc. [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 10:18:30 BST Newsgroups: rec.music.cd,alt.music.progressive Subject: Re: New Crimson Live Boxed Sets Keywords: Crimson, Fripp Date: 25 Aug 92 21:05:54 GMT Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Nntp-Posting-Host: flat >Most bootlegs I've seen were from the same set of concerts >as "Starless" - from concerts (or was it just one concert?) >in Amsterdam in 1973. Often, just the same >recording repackaged over and over in "limited editions". There's one Amsterdam 73 show heavily bootlegged, and a couple other 73 ones like Arlington Texas and an Atlanta one. There's actually been quite a few Crimson boots (much to Robert's dismay) but many surface with different titles. Theres a few from 1969. Very few from 70-71. There's also a number of tapes incirculation that never got pressed as bootlegs, or some that are more intact than the bootleg versions. I've got about 22 tapes of live Crimson from various eras. >Anyway, "Earthbound" (live 1972) is one of the best Crimson records, >regardless of awful sound quality. I think this was recorded on an early Ampex cassette deck! >I never heard anything live from 198*. What it is like? >Just like studio or different? Mostly I think it was pretty close to the studio stuff. I have heard some variation on lyrics - for example Thela Hun Gunjeet started out with some dialogue lifted from a track on exposure ("Your House, My House, Well get out there's the door) squeezed in as Adrian described overhearing it from the street. The studio and later live versions had Belew's taped narration instead. Also it seemed to me that some of the songs mutated a bit over the years - I'm pretty sure the bass line Thela Hun Gunjeet ended up a bit different by 1984. The 1984 shows opened with a bit of improvisation that led into Lark's Tongue part III. As far as I can tell this varied a bit from show to show but was pretty similar. Also I think Adrian played around with the lyrics a bit, like in a 1984 show in Minneapolis he does some slightly different words in Indiscipline. Overall I don't think they improvised as much in the 80's as they did in the 70's, at least not live. - malcolm at wrs dot com [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this group or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk The views expressed in discipline are those of the individual authors only.