Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #508 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 508 Wednesday, 10 June 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Message from Robert Fripp to ETers (via..me) Brief Public Response to Ted White David Cross RE: Joanna Walton et. al. A hungry Crimson fan discovers 70's Miles Davis Re: DGM club the longest (thin) thread McDonald and Giles Not Necessarily a New Box Set Noticeable edit during B'Boom? What would it take to get KC to Australia? Ian MacDonald in Crimson What Is Jazz? DGM Club. Re: Absent lovers track selections In it for the money? Listener fatigue can be addressed. Steam Engine Time, etc. bruford tapes Fonts, Left/Right brain 21st Century Schizoid Purge Note on: Misreadings; Age; Perception GIG REVIEW: Detroit GIG REVIEW: P2 in Detroit GIG REVIEW: P2 Cleveland June 2 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 23:43:50 PDT From: "Rich Malitz" Subject: NEWS: Message from Robert Fripp to ETers (via..me) [ This post was held over from the last issue. Rich was first to break the news, but I needed to seek verification of the story first. -- Toby ] I am posting a very interesting and memorable post today. I have been asked by Robert Fripp to let ET readers know of a brand new idea Robert came up with 2 days ago. As many of us are aware, we seem to always want more music from Crimson/Fripp the moment we get the latest releases. Basically, a lot of fams want "everything" in the vault if possible. This of course would be financially impossible for a record label to do, and would not be widely popular. Consider an independant release of the Plumpton Festival 1969 disc from the Epitaph Box Set. Now, with the sound quality being what it is, are we to believe that this would still be widely accepted by the majority? No. In fact, many would feel cheated in thinking that it would at least have a more proper sound quality, not a mono audience tape! So DGM had a smart idea by allowing those who might be interested in a "bootleg" audio source CD to be able to order the Plumpton and Chesterfield discs (Epitaph Vol 3 & 4) by mail order at a very reasonable price. But they would know ahead of time what they would be getting and DGM would be able to avoid many production costs, etc. Which brings us to the greatest idea I have ever heard regarding the Crimson/Fripp "vaults." DGM would start a Collector's Club which would allows members of the club to purchase some of the rarest performances we could imagine. For example, how about a 1972 show with Jamie Muir included? A 1979 Frippertronics performance? Or even the ProjeKct 2 show I saw last night here in Chicago? I know this sounds impossible, too good to be true, etc. But it is TRUE. A great number of these tapes are bootleg sources like the Plumpton CD, and some are DAT mixing desk recordings. What DGM would be offering the members is basically the chocolate room of the Willy Wonka Factory! Here is how I understand it to work. Let's say for now a membership would start at $175 dollars (US), or a little over 100 pounds. Now each member's advance membership money would be used to help finance the DGM end of the costs that would be incurred in such a venture. Then a large number of CD's would be available to choose from. For each one a member picks, the $175 is reduced until you hit $0. Basically it works like a checking account or a phone card. Now as far as what performances will be available? This is not clear yet, maybe the member's will vote from an extensive list, and from there the more popular choices will be available. I am unsure, as is Robert, remember, he thought this up June 4th!! This would be a wonderful way for shows/performances that would not draw a lot of attention in the normal music stores, or from Crimson fans for example, who think that another Thrak tour live album would be a waste, to get to the real fans who want nothing more than more of the music they love. Like I said before Robert, do you take VISA? I'm waiting... Let's see how everybody responds to this news on ET for the next few weeks. I believe Robert would like to know what everybody thinks. Maybe he just might do it! As to who I am, and how in the heck did I get Robert to tell me all this? My name is Rich Malitz, I live in the Chicago area, and I saw the two ProjeKct 2 shows here June 4 & 5. Today, June 6, P2 had a in store promo for the P2 CD at Tower Records. After meeting the band very quickly, I waited on the side and watched the signing continue. Someone next to my friends asked Robert a question and this led to some more, and the next thing you know, Robert starts explaining the Collector's Club idea. He wants the word to go around to get some feedback from the fans. So I offered my assistance in spreading the word on ET. So that is it for now, if anyone would like to email me regarding this, be my guest, but I really have told you everything I know. If you can think of a question though, maybe I can answer it for you. Let's see the support for this Club ETers! And yes Robert, I would like to order my copy of the June 5th Chicago show, (the 4th would also be nice!). Rich Malitz Buffalo Grove, IL To Robert, Adrian, and Trey - "I have now survived ProjeKct 2 at The Cannery, and the Park West twice!" Oh yeah! - ProjeKct 3 to include Pat Mastelotto - coming to a town near you this fall... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:06:14 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Brief Public Response to Ted White In one of Ted White's recent post he lumps me in with a group of people who misread his post. Fair enough, Ted. But I would add that your original post was less than clear. The explanation of why Ian MacDonald should be consulted (which I still strongly disagree with, but now at least understand) came a few ETs after my response was written. I also want to point out that: I. I admitted in my original post that I might be putting words in your mouth (as your end comment left me confussed). II. McDonald and Giles may show what might have happened, but I think you'll agree that with Fripp's output that album would certainly be much different. III. When you discuss what King Crimson owes to its past (I still say "nothing") you neglect to mention that I questioned whether or not Fripp should have continued with that name. IV. You seem to imply that posts like mine (I assume I'm in this group) add nothing to ET. I'm very sorry to hear this. You made an interesting comment, so I tried to respond. That I got beyond your post and into my own thoughts is certainly true; perhaps I should have noted that I was doing so. Finally, let me add (not to Ted, but to the list) that the recent P2 shows have shown KC moving into a more atonal, instrumentally oriented sound (compared to 80s and Thrak anyway) that will almost certainly feature synthesizers. Not everyone will like it, but the band is going to be just fine. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:22:43 PDT From: "George Khouroshvili" Subject: David Cross Hello everyone! Please, send me some information about David Cross. I've got his 2 solo albums: "Testing to destruction" & "Exiles". They both are excellent. But I have no idea on his activities since 1974. Maybe David has his own web-page? I couldn't find it in the Web. I'll be very grateful for any information. All best wishes, George Khouroshvili ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:20:40 PDT From: "Michel Champagne" Subject: RE: Joanna Walton et. al. Jay Verkuilen asked in #506 about who Joanna Walton is/was: To my recollection, Joanna Walton was RF's love interest/girlfriend during his time spent living in New York prior to, during, and a year or so after recording "Exposure," to which she contributed so much. As for all the hoopla about how we were all affected by ITCOTCK, I'm surprised I haven't already read my story here in ET: I first heard KC in the summer of 1974 with ITCOTCK (when the song was re-released in an edited version as a single?, I seem to remember reading somewhere) which got a fair amount of airplay on the local "hip" FM station. Of course, I was only twelve at the time and fresh from using all my newfound cash to buy up all the Beatles LP's that I had grown up with (I'm the "baby" in the family) but never had the chance to own, but I was totally undone by this "new" band and ran out and found the LP. Happily, I've never quite recovered, either! And thanks to Ted White for his lenghthy post - I hope I'm as together as you are when I get to be your age, seriously. Its heartening to know I'm not the only one who intends to keep my musical wits about me as I grow older! Of course, you've only got eight years on RF, god bless 'im! As for "Discipline", I remember the words "the next step is discipline" scratched between the lead-out grooves on the LoG album (try that on a CD and where do I send my money for a vinyl THRACK?!), then reading about RF's new band, "Discipline", and then seeing "Discipline" in the bins - I recall RF stating something on the order of realizing that he somehow or other felt the presence of KC during the evolution of "Discipline" and then realized that the four of them (RF, BB, AB & TL) had the "energy" of KC at their disposal if only they wished to avail themselves of the opportunity, which they of course did. And lastly, I really get a kick out of reading ET; it's great to have access to a forum where so many divergent ideas get posted, all in the name of adulation for RF and KC in one form or another. And I'm glad Robert has seen fit to appear with his wife in a "women's" magazine (ref ET #505) - for heaven's sakes, he's just a man, he's not a god! My two enjoyable encounters with him (through the mail) have yielded insight into someone who puts his pants on the same way the rest of us do. He just happens to be an incredibly gifted musician and, lucky for us, continues to let us hear him play, thirty+ years after he first turned professional. I can live with that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:32:00 -0500 From: "Eric and Nancy Thorson" Subject: A hungry Crimson fan discovers 70's Miles Davis Back in college I was a huge Yes fan. The music-loving employees of a record store in Missoula, Montana, called Rockin' Rudys, were able to answer my question of "How do I hear more of this type of sound" by pointing me in the direction of Genesis, Emerson Lake and Palmer, and King Crimson. I didn't really understand why 70's era King Crimson was so great until DGM was formed and "The Great Deciever" was released. I was amazed, and listened to these albums every night the summer of '93. The improvised pieces were something I could listen to repeatedly, always with a rewarding new insight. Sadly, no-one was equipped to answer the question, "How can I hear more of the type of music I hear on these discs?" It is right that Miles Davis has been a part of this list's discussion lately. I took a risk and purchased Bitches Brew, and a few of the live recordings which have been recently released in 20-bit Cd format. These largely improvised works come from the same place that the Great Deciever improv did. The sound is obviously more "black", but the spirit of improvisation remains the same. It is also ironic that B.L.U.E. should form with a strong trumpet player, and that Projekct 2 should emphasize improv and jazz sounds as much as it does. My ears this summer are filled with musicians "taking the leap," and they are very happy ears. I would suggest to anyone else who has fallen in love with the improvisatory skills of the 70's Crimson to check out Miles Davis if they have not done so already. Eric J. Thorson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:11:11 -0500 From: "Eric and Nancy Thorson" Subject: Re: DGM club The news that Robert will be making private recordings available through a DGM club is exciting, though the price tag dives me to despair. I think I am one of the most loyal followers of Fripp's music around. I unquestioningly lay down my money for almost every DGM release, trusting in Mr. Fripp's superior taste and abilities. Almost all of my record money goes to Possible Productions. This is the music I love, and anything else is incomparable. Though I probably spend over $175 a year on Fripp-related music, or would, at least, the prospect of spending that much up front is a bit daunting. Is there any other way to do this? My concern is, if live Frippertronics and Soundscapes, Crimson bootlegs and other material are going to be released in the DGM club format, will they ever see a wider release through DGM? I think that the club idea is a good one. I might even be inclined to spend up to $100 on a membership, before the music is even heard. I realize that these limited-appeal projects need to be financed somehow, but could the price be taken down a bit? My concern is, basically, don't limit the possibility of sales to an eager but financially limited audience. Eric J. Thorson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:12:07 -0400 From: tj Subject: the longest (thin) thread The time has come to type words about ET's longest thread: Crimson et al should visit down under. This is not just diatribe please read. I did some searching and found what might be the oldest entry on this: >Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 15:33:57 +1000 >From: keens at pitvax dot xx dot rmit dot edu dot au >Subject: S/F world tour >To those of us in australia, world tour seems a bit of an >overstatement!!! jeremy And now in 1998, nearly five years later, we have (sorry Stuart): >Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 13:56:28 +1100 >From: "Warwick Allison" >Subject: Australian Crimheads >...Perhaps we could get together and try and get a particion >(or however you spell that) to get Crimson to come and tour >Australia! Stuart Allison Sydney, Australia >If you want Crimson to tour Australia please join in the >campaign by writing something at the end of your message so >that we can hopefully draw someones (hopefully Mr Fripp's) >attention. "Crimson, Australia NEEDS you!!!" says Stuart >the Crimhead that lives in Australia. Ok now please hear me through. Entries of this nature have appeared for at least five years. To no avail no known member of Crimson et al has made a hint of going down under. We have heard the arguments that the expense would be too high. I would think that if a single Crimson freak with a loaded trust fund really wanted this to happen then it could. Otherwise not. (Of course such a person could just get on a plane.) In 1988 I spent a stunning 8 weeks traveling across Australia and New Zealand. While visiting Melbourne I learned that Twyla Tharp's dance company (see David Byrne, The Catherine Wheel) was there that week. This was a coup. I sat in a stunning theater 5th row center in an _empty house_. The dancers, used to sold out shows, were freaked. I pondered hard how this could be but not knowing what the complete circumstances were I never made a complete conclusion. It was a sad scene. For such an effort to be successful would require more than a few packed clubs of undoubtedly very happy people. There have been numerous references by Crimson members about the strain of long distance travel and the need for more than sufficient hotel accommodations. And what of equipment? The best bet is probably a solo tour or two of individual members. They go to Japan because they are kept to in good standing and perhaps paid well also. Which cities would they play? Auckland, Wellington, Sydney, Melbourne....? Would we hear complaints of them not visiting Perth, Cairns, Christchurch? (Yes and Minnesota.) BUT it might be better to write a hand written well thought out letter directly to DGM management rather than ET. It might be best to contact all known companies in Australia and New Zealand that have the most experience doing this sort of gig and get them on it. Ask them about feasibility. Who is organizing the WOMAD I've heard about? Are they busy reading ET? You do have my sympathies. I waited 17 years to see David Torn. It was torture. But I know that I could have saved let's say $100 a year for fifteen years and seen him in Europe two years earlier. Nothing is impossible. I hope some of my points make sense. Perhaps not. So be it. Yah well flame on mate. tj dumela at nicom dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:35:28 +0200 From: "Mikko Uusi-Oukari" Subject: McDonald and Giles I just found a McDonald and Giles tape made in Cotillion/Atlantic label from my old tapes. Does anyone know when the record was originally published. Sounds like King Crimson between In the Court-Islands period. Are McDonald and Giles playing all instruments? Anyone seen a CD release? Mikko ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:58:50 +0100 From: "Steve Young" Subject: Not Necessarily a New Box Set Just seen the new Crimson triple cd boxed set - with a remarkable painting on the front of three sailors staring at a mermaid on a rock [ by the same artist who did the hoardings at the Castle Mall in Norwich] The cd set is called "TALES OF THE MARINER", and the track listing is as follows: CD ONE The Sailor's Tale [originally on "Islands"] The Sailor's Tale [live version originally on "Earthbound"] The Sailor's Tale ["Earthbound" version remixed and remastered] The Sailor's Tale [studio outtake minus Boz on bass] The Sailor's Tale [live version - venue unknown] CD TWO The Salor's Tail [improvisation - Hyde Park concert] The Squalors Teal [improvisation - Marquee Club] The Sailor's Tale [acoustic studio version] The Sailor's Tale [see CD ONE track one] The Sailor's Tale [as CD ONE track three, but fades out slightly earlier] CD THREE A Tale Told by a Searfaring Sort of Fellow [improvisation - Rotterdam Conzertgebouwe] The Sailor's Zeal [improvisation - Munich Mazterbatzionsfestspielallgemeinehalle] The Sailor's Tale [live - Naples - Il Palais de Musicico il Duce da Milan] Sailor's Tale [features complete mellotron failure during a soundcheck in Scarborough] The Sailor's Tale [recorded on a dictaphone situated in the next room to Robert's stereo in his playroom in Wimbourne] Get Your Facts Straight [early trial version of "Sailor's Tale" recorded prior to "Islands" sessions, and hardly differing to the eventual track at all. The cd boxed set comes with a fifty seven page booklet featuring copies of letters written to and by Robert Fripp in the mid 1970's regarding the alleged moving of fences surrounding his Dorset dwelling. And lots of Discipline Global stuff slagging off EG Records on copyright control. Steve Young Norwich UK syoung dot ndif at gtnet dot gov dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:34:04 +0100 (BST) From: dinosaur Subject: Noticeable edit during B'Boom? I was debating with my friend Tim (who first introduced me to Krimso) whether or not this is too much of an aNORaKKY question to ask on ET, but I think I'll mention it anyway! Both of us can hear an edit during the drum duet B'Boom on Thrak which seems to stick out like a sore thumb. I was wondering whether we were the only people to have noticed it. It occurs at approximately 3:41 into the track. Bill and Pat play the b'boom pattern through very quietly twice on tom-toms, they then play the same pattern much louder, and at the end of the first time through loudly, this is where the edit happens. It's best heard listening at a decent volume on headphones. I'd be interested to see if anyone else can hear this, and whether someone might be able to offer an explanation as to why this happens. Once Tim pointed it out to me, it just seems really obvious every time I hear the track now! James. ~ www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ ~ ------------------------------ From: "Ken Taylor" Subject: What would it take to get KC to Australia? Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:34:14 -0500 It's obvious that it will take more than desperate pleas from adoring fans to persuade Mr Fripp & co. to drop from the skies onto our shores, so I was wondering if somebody might be brave enough to put a $$figure on what kind of persuasion might be needed. The replies to "why won't they come here" are met with the usually met with "there's not enough fans there". But then we read stories in ET of them playing in record stores to indifferent audiences. A record store gig is hardly a stadium, but obviously somebody thought this type of (promotional) gig was of some value to the record sales of the group. The other most common reply is "but it's SO far away/expensive" so what I'm asking is **how** expensive is it? If anybody is interested in hazarding a guess, you can leave out the airfares/accommodation part and just comment on the fee for engaging the group for one (?) night. Since there aren't that many of us fans here, we could think of it as being like a private party. Obviously Australia IS a long way from everywhere and if they were to travel here, a week would probably be needed out of their schedule (so we're talking about a weekly fee to play one night). I'm sure there'd be plenty of comfortable, club sized rooms around the country who'd be happy to have the group play and, since everybody seems to have determined there's not a huge "fan base" here to cover costs, it means we'd have to look to some kind of arts patronage...but anything is possible. Who knows...maybe they'd enjoy the break away from the rest of the world for a while :) Spare me any flames about "maybe Mr Fripp thinks it's a crappy little country not worth the bother". I don't know...it doesn't really matter. Indulge me with your figuring so I (and the other two fans here in Australia) can put our heads together and see what can be done to entice KC to visit us :) Cheers to all, Ken __________________________ A Midi Fanfare to Unique Talent ---Keith Emerson Tribute Site--- Updated June 1998 http://www.users.bigpond.com/zingari ______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:29:38 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: Ian MacDonald in Crimson Ian MacDonald joining Crimson again? I'm not sure that would be a particularly wise move from Mr Fripp and co, not with the double trio. Maybe with the new ProjeKct Three though! I can just imagine Fripp and Gunn winding their spacey grooves with a trippy, Arabian flute curling around putting you into a trance....... Enough dreaming! It ain't gonna happen (have I spoken to soon?) Stuart Crimson should be touring Australia! P.S. Is it just me or is it everyone who doesn't have/use a spell checker feel nervous after that guy who posted a put-down of someone eltherth spellink. I hoop I havint spilt unythung roong!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:17:59 -0400 From: "Stack, Mike" Subject: What Is Jazz? Andy Gower said: > Helping those following the thread of jazz as it concerns > KC, Miles Davis and others; here is the definition of jazz > music from the editors of the All-Music Guide To Jazz: > "Jazz is music that emphasizes improvisation and always has > the feeling of the blues. All of the other potential > qualities (including swing, a steady rhythm, high > musicianship, individuality and even the ability to play in > tune) are optional if often desired. What makes music jazz > is the fact that a particular piece is not played the same > way every time, and that individual and collective > expression are considered much more significant than trying > to duplicate a recorded performance in concert; the exact > opposite of most pop music! Ragtime is entirely written out > while New Age and forms of Indian music have improvisation > but lack any blues feeling, so each of these styles fall > outside of jazz." > Discuss for next class. I disagree. Putting a definition on a genre is something that is fairly impossible. What serparates rock music from pop music? I would consider Led Zeppelin to be a pop band, whilst most people on this list would offer them up as a rock band, so the genre border is effectively decided by my opinion. I've heard people say Crimson sounds like punk to them. I think genres are a lot looser than people try to make them. Mark Isham does jazz, but sometimes more on the "New Age" (the bastard child of Eno and Ornette Coleman IMHO...) side, sometimes more on the rock side. It's not an easy definition. So, do we call him New Age, or Jazz. I've seen him as both in record stores. Or how about Ornette Coleman having a rapper on on of his songs ("The Search For Life" from _Tone Dialing_). Does this make that song a hip-hop song, 'cause of its rhythms and lead, or a jazz tune, 'cause Coleman's a jazz player and his solo is as jazz as anything he's done. And check this out-- progressive rock is an extension of the rock n roll that people were doing in the 50s and 60s which in turn was an extension of blues. Now, as Crimso "emphasizes improvisation", especially in the '70s and more recently, and "has the feeling of the blues" (being as they're a derivation of it in a form..), does that make them pure jazz? By the way-- on a sidenote, I find the ruling against long posts to be unfair. If someone doesn't want to read a long posting, that's what the page down button is for. I think in order to properly discuss a band such as Crimson, sometimes a necessity to go in depth is required, to an extent that a long post would be needed, and while some excess can be left out for brevity's sake, I just think that Toby is stifling the purpose of this list-- the discussion of Robert Fripp and King Crimson's music. I hope a lot of you agree with me, 'cause I think long posts SHOULD stay. mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 12:44:41 GMT From: Trevor Lever Subject: DGM Club. Robert, If you're reading this, count me in for membership of the DGM club. I think it's a great idea for all concerned and welcome the opportunity to participate. When do we start? Trevor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:29:02 EDT From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Re: Absent lovers track selections Weissenburger - Jeremy S. wrote: >On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 Rob MacCoun wrote: > >>Forgive me in advance for whining; I'll keep it brief. Did >>they really leave "Sheltering Sky" off of Absent Lovers? ... >>I suspect the explanation might be that SS >>wasn't on the 1984 set list, > >This is correct. I was not at the 84 shows, but from the... >erm, "stuff" I've heard, it was not played. I saw Crimso twice on the 1984 tour, first in Berkeley (on my birthday, June 2), and then a few days later in San Diego. "The Sheltering Sky" was played at the Berkeley show as the first song of the second encore (followed by "Elephant Talk"). It was not played in San Diego. Most likely it was not played at the Montreal shows where _Absent Lovers_ was recorded, either. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 19:45:33 -0700 From: fripples Subject: In it for the money? In ET 507, a post by Orn Orrason mentions that Henry Potts at some newsgroup states that Robert Fripp is only in it for the money. Interestingly, a friend of mine in NYC who was responsible for turning me on to KC in 1972 made a similiar comment ("Fripp has gotten too commercial"). Neither comments I understand. My understanding of commercial would be along these lines: using your talents, whatever they may be, to get the utmost exposure and financial reward possible. So, does my friend in NYC, or Henry Potts, feel that Robert Fripp or any member of King Crimson, for that matter, is making a great fortune on what they are doing? From what I have seen and heard of RF's taste and abilities over the last twenty five years, surely there would be great financial reward playing with any of a number of korporate rock radio bands. Does Potts believe that no-one would have him, that he is not talented enough to make it? When my friend in NYC made his comment, I stated I simply don't understand his comment. How has he gotten commercial? Explain what 'only in it for the money' means. Many (if not most) people outside my circle I mention Robert Fripp to say "I don't think I know him". How could someone "commercial" or "in it for the money" being failing so miserably by not being on the tip of someone's tounge or all over the radio waves? People should stop and think. Hootie & The Blowfish are in it for the money. I haven't posted to ET in a while, but just had a strong opinion on this. Mike (formerly the frippless one, but now fripples) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:34:48 -0400 From: "RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR." Subject: Listener fatigue can be addressed. I can empathize with the posts concerning "digital fatigue" where they may relate to cd's of vintage material. Nothing will transform these recordings to satisfy my needs entirely but these recordings are still every bit important to me as the next King Crimson release. The digital format is something I value nearly as much as my left ear so I have no criticism to offer. However I am very sensitive to what I call listening fatigue which is the final obstacle an audiophile has to overcome when building a system to satisfy his/her personal needs. I would like to share with anyone interested the single most important strategy that I have discovered to address listener fatigue: vacuum tubes. Tubes have a warming effect that smooths so much material that I have found them to be indispensable. Perhaps this is why tube electronics is enjoying such a resurgence. For credibility I can state that I have a degree in electrical technology and have read and tested and spent tens of thousands of dollars on stereo equipment and have also built solid state amplifiers and speakers. No matter how much I read and am taught I have no reason to doubt my ears because I am not a piece of test equipment and I believe music is as much spiritual as it is mechanical. Tubes and transistors are different animals and therefore sound different. For me tubes simply sound better and like Bob Dylan said "You don't need a weather man to tell which way the wind blows". You may owe yourself the opportunity to live with a tube amp for a week, no matter what anyone else thinks. I would be pleased to respond to anyone via private email to RayRaupersJr dot at prodigy dot net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:45:23 -0500 From: Neal Brown Subject: Steam Engine Time, etc. Liked Dr. Ted's "Steam Engine Time" comment in 506--when it's time for something to happen, it happens in several places at once. The general time period from 1965-1975 was a pretty creative one in music (if not always successful!). Re Mike Stack's 506 post--what I meant (perhaps this wasn't clear in the post) was that In The Court didn't really sound much like Miles' Bitches Brew nor Chicago Transit Authority (haven't heard the BS&T album from this time). In fact, those three albums are pretty distinct. Bitches Brew is very African and formless, CTA has a kind of a heavy rock sound with some funk thrown in, and ITCOTCK sounds like The Moody Blues on bad acid. I *do* agree with you in that ITCOTCK (and Crimson in general) always has a had a strong jazz influence (less so on the 80s albums). "Pictures of a City," for example, is quite jazzy--more so than 21CSM, imho. Islands as a jazz-rock album? I'll buy that--it's got a very classical sound to me (cf. the Islands prelude), but there is a more consistent jazz feel to it. Perhaps it's because of the lesser mortals accompanying RF at the time? Re Andy Gower's post of the All-Music Guide's definition of jazz...I think that's a pretty silly definition of jazz. Jazz is a feeling, really. What Trane did at the end of his career is only loosely based on the blues. There are many jazzers who play everything the same way live. (That's *bad* jazz, but it's jazz.) I'd have to say that, like rock, jazz is kind of a feeling. It's such a diverse field, it's hard to come up with a neat, tidy defintion. Query: has the double trio done "Starless" live? Anybody know? I wonder what they'd do with it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:48:05 +0100 From: kate dot d at virgin dot net Subject: bruford tapes hello, i recently saw an album in a 2nd hand record store by bill bruford entitled "the bruford tapes", from memory it was dated '79. can anyone tell me if this would be a good purchase? thanks, ashley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:36:46 EDT From: SMcmil6360 at aol dot com Subject: Fonts, Left/Right brain Fellow Crimsoids, I was wondering if anyone could tell me where to find PC true type fonts that are styled after the typesets on King Crimson albums? Also, I would like to find fonts styled after the works of Roger Dean. Private e-mail would be appreciated. Also, I just bought a used copy of Three Of A Perfect Pair on cassette, the original Warner Bros. release. I noticed it is labeled as having Left Side, and Right Side, rather than side A and B as would normally be the case. Do you think, perhaps, that this refers to Left Brain/Right Brain? The tracks look as follows: Left Side: Three Of A Perfect Pair Model Man Sleepless Man With An Open Heart Nuages Right Side: Industry Dig Me No Warning Lark's Tongues In Aspic III I thought it would make a good topic for discussion. Cheers. Steve M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:56:17 -0500 From: "Ced" Subject: 21st Century Schizoid Purge Greetings All: In a perfect world, this is what would happen in 1999, to celebrate the 30th anniversary of our favorite band ... KC would perform their show (in San Francisco, if I understand) to a packed house in the hall of their choice. The bigger, the better. The show would be Springsteen-like in size, totaling four hours or more. It would be divided into segments: 69-72, 73-74, 81-84, and 93-present. The double trio would be the primary band, but each segment would allow for former band members to appear during their period of King Crimson (giving us a chance to see and hear Ian McDonald, John Wetton, David Cross, Jamie Muir, or any of the others) to play some of the tunes from their glory days. There would be a grand finale featuring all the musicians (Talking Drum/Larks Tongues II perhaps? Or better yet, how about a new song altogether?), who would close the show with a flourish heretofore unheard of. They would leave the stage to thunderous applause, knowing that KC's legacy is intact. The entire show would be recorded and released in a four or five-disc box set, as well as a video, for all of us who can't be there. And when all is said and done, King Crimson can move forward into the actual 21st Century, without worrying about turning into a retro-nostalgia act. The past can stay where it is, and fans like me can look forward to an era of new, exciting music. Think we can talk them into it? Until next time ... Peace, Ced ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:43:13 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Note on: Misreadings; Age; Perception I hope this meets the new length restrictions; it is broken down for eaisier reading. I. If the deconstuctionists were right about one thing, it's that all reading is misreading. ET illustrates this regularly as we continue to misread each other and then must correct each other's misperceptions. There's little to be done about this situation: it's a necessary part of human discussion. So I misread Ted White, who misreads me (all the while we each are certain that our posts are perfectly clear) and as a result we end up in an argument when in fact, I now suspect, what we have is a difference in taste. However, I might add that this process can still provide some excellent discussions (I actually enjoyed this one) and posts. II. An example would be Eb's response to Mr White, in which Mr b discusses the difference age and time can mean to the perception of the listener. My experiences with ItCotCK is similar to his, and some of this is because we are closer in age (I suspect). When I found King Crimson, there was no King Crimson (mid-70s). My introduction to Robert Fripp came through the Eno collaborations, which led to the 73-74 band (still my favorite, but I don't want a reunion). When the 80s band arrived, I was an instant fan. I respect and like the pre-Larks Toungue material, but not as much as what came later, and I am still more of a Robert Fripp "fan" than King Crimson: a name that means too much at once to mean much to me at all, beyond being Robert Fripp's band at any given moment. (I have no impression that this is any more than my opinion.) III. Reading my last post it occured to me the reader may easily misread my ambiguous prose and assume that I dislike all old KCs and that the current band is my "favorite". That is incorrect. But I feel the new KC is the best KC that we can have RIGHT NOW. I do wish to add that I respect Ian McDonald, and that had Mr White said any other musician should be consulted I would have responded the same way. Michael Flaherty Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:51:27 EDT From: MilesTee at aol dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Cc: Bashatee at aol dot com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GIG Review: ParkWest Chicago + Tower Records Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My best friend Barbara wanted to see Adrian Belew, check out a "Stick" and see Robert smile. We had been to the Soundscapes show early this year, same venue. I was surprised that she was excited about seeing Projeckt Two. Well, the boys did not let her down. Adrian enjoyed himself and played well. She also got to see him play acoustic solo, not once but twice during the show. Trey was fine on the WARR guitar. He is a vital part of group and Crimson as a whole. He must remain for Crimson to be Crimson. Each time I listen to a complication in person I am truly amazed at the full sound of the WARR/Stick. And Robert smiled, several times. He even got up once and asked if the music was too heavy for us, to which we responded as one "NO" so they got heavier. The quickness and cleanness of Robert's guitar is still there, something I always enjoy. With the three pieces, as opposed to Soundscapes, Robert was able to improv a great deal including sounds of progressive jazz discord through piano & vibes. Progressive jazz sound is what made me a Crimson fan in the first place circa 1970. The show was great. It was refreshing and my best friend Barbara enjoyed it so much that we listened to the CD over breakfast in the AM. Checking the DGM site, we noticed that Trey, Adrian & Robert were going to be at Tower @ noon on Saturday. I said, "We have been in the city a great glately so if you want to stay in the 'burbs for the day it's okay if we don't go to Clark Street". Barb would have nothing to do with it. Along with maybe 100 people, we met Projeckt Two at Tower. Chatted with Adrian, who was more than comfortable to chat with. Trey was genuinely happy when I handed him "Third Star" to sign. And Robert was happy, smiled, waved and very responsive, even to flash photography! All in all, and I have see Crimson and Crimson parts several times, the overall experience of the show & personal visit was a true highlight. I see Boston will have the same opportunity in the near future so if you are anywhere in the area you are missing out on a fine time if you don't go. Plus - We have a new fan! Adrian smiled when I said, "We went to your show on Thursday and listened to the CD over breakfast. She's becoming a fan." and he said in return, "That's not an easy thing to do" while shaking her hand. So ..... when they are in your neighborhood ~ go without a second thought! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:35:08 -0400 From: Dale Subject: GIG REVIEW: Detroit I attended the Detroit Projekct Two show at the Majestic Theater on Sunday June 7, 1998. I would say that it was basically the same show described in the prior gig reviews from other cities. Based upon the descriptions of the prior shows, Detroit may have differed in the following ways. First, Belew played 3 acoustic songs after the first intermission, with the third being "Three of a Perfect Pair" Not one I thought would be done acoustically, it was very good, but still a shame considering the musicians who were in the building but not joining in on that song. Before the final song, Fripp stepped up to the microphone and in his small voice, noted that he'd been coming to Detroit for 30 years and Detroit audiences still "Kick Ass" Fripp seemed to be in a good mood throughout the show, despite the preshow warnings from security that the show would stop if any audience member violated any one of the rules that we all know so well. ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Fignar Jr." Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 in Detroit Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:37:35 -0400 Unlike the other Detroit review, I would call for a venue name change to "Anything But Majestic". The venue is a dive, it looked better than ever, but still quacks like a duck, walks like a duck... While standing in line warnings spewed forth from the management about no smoking, recording or photographs allowed. The crowd around me proceeded to make fun of Fripp at this point. At least we still had beer. I have not heard (yet) any P2. So it was a new experience for me. My first impression would be of the live band. I was most impressed with the Warr guitar. Trey was much more interesting to watch than Fripp. The range of this instrument seems endless. I liked the show very much to my surprise. The band seemed to be in good spirits, and ready to perform. The V-Drums have come a long way since I first heard syth drums in the early eighties. Adrian was steady, accurate, and enjoying himself. During one piece a little guitar dual developed and you could see Fripp mouth to Adrian "wow" as Trey blazed trails in sound across the hall. A little remnant of G3 I guess? The show flowed smoothly and kept my interest throughout. At times the band sounded industrial other times like progressive at it's best. Before the start of the second set, and before the encore Adrian did his acoustic stuff. A very nice touch, and excellent performance. The songs played by Adrian were "Men in Helicopters," "Young Lions" "Three of a Perfect Pair," at the break. And "Dinosaur" before the encore. A pleasant surprise would have been a solo by Trey, maybe with P3? It is always a pleasure to see excellent musicians perform their craft. Afterward Trey and Adrian signed autographs. Connected to the Majestic Theater is the Majestic Cafe, a nice place. The band came in after the show for a late dinner. I've heard all these fan tales of Fripp, but he seemed relaxed in public and was polite to all who spoke to him, including me. All the fans were polite too, not interrupting their dinner. A very pleasant, worthwhile experience. Thanks Guys! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:45:55 -0400 From: Alan Wilde Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 Cleveland June 2 The Odeon in the Flats area of Cleveland was small and a good crowd came out to see the boys. The first set was quite good and didn't resemble anything from Space Grooves. The pieces seemed to somewhat planned with lots of improv which let Robert and Trey to go all over the place. At points it seemed that Robert was enjoying himself which was great to see. Problems started during the second set when someone flashed a picture during a great improv session. This caused Robert to become disgusted and walk off stage. Trey and Adrian shortly followed. The announcer came on to say that until the person who took the photo turned it over to the sound booth the show wouldn't go on. Thank god the person who did this turned over the film. Robert came back on stage with the film pulled from the cartridge and the crowd applauded. It was great. They then went back into the improv they were playing and finished the piece. Before the encore Adrian came out and played pieces from BelewPrints just as he did before the second set. He was great and I enjoy his work more each time I see him. They played a lounge version of Vroom which was great fun. At the end Robert was very upbeat and animated to the crowd. The only downside was when someone snapped a picture. This really disappointed me and took away from the experience. They clearly asked that no one take a picture and if you saw someone doing it to ask them not to. I thought it was pretty clear and out of respect to Robert I don't blame him for his reaction. I think that someone's inconsideration hurt both the performer and the audience and that is a shame. So if you want to enjoy the show and hear some great music(that no one else can even try to mimic)please respect the wishes of the band and Robert. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #508 ********************************