Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #507 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 507 Monday, 8 June 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: (a) Vinyl dies, and so does the thread; (b) long posts NEWS: Fripp Announces DGM Club; P3; Soundscape Plans NEWS: B.L.U.E. rebroadcast 6/21 Lineup for the 30th Anniversary Concert songs (my version) re: vinyl RE: evolution...Devolution...CRIMSOLUTION ***NEWS OF THE WORLD*** Re: Mitchell and Fripp Re: $, 1969... Re: Absent lovers track selections Overdue Correction and Roxy/KC at Frejus More on Crimsolution ELP and Fountains of Wayne On vinyl detailed release dates Two Hands, Rock & Folk and Sherlock What Is Jazz? Not for audiophiles... re: Frejus Concert Re: Impact of ITCOTCK and LTIA Thrak pattern Greg Lake a loudmouth? (reaction to Ted Boots/Intro to Crimson When will DGM Web update New Releases Vinyl vs CDs and Twinkies Joni Mitchell GIG REVEIW: ProjeKct Two Concert in Detroit GIG REVIEW: P2 in Chicago (both nights) GIG REVIEW: P2, Pittsburgh GIG REVIEW: Perspectives from Ohio ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Monday 8 June 1998 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: (a) Vinyl dies, and so does the thread; (b) long posts OK, the "vinyl" thread is no more from now on. It's ceased to be. It's pushin' up the daisies. It's an ex-thread. Likewise, ET is to say "goodbye" to the long posts. Many ETers have complained to me about long-winded posts in excess of 1500, or even 2000, words. I'm not going to set a word-limit, but if you send ET a long post, and it's obvious that it's a bit of an * E S S A Y *, beware that I may ask you to revise it, or that you start your own mailing list :-) And, hey, before you post at all, please consider for a moment if you really want to post, or just reply to someone by private email. Cheers to everyone Toby, your smiling moderator (well, most of the time) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:06:53 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: NEWS: Fripp Announces DGM Club; P3; Soundscape Plans In his recent appearance at Tower Records in Chicago, Robert Fripp made several comments which he asked to be passed on by ET readers. I. DGM is forming a music club in which Robert Fripp will be releasing music from his private collection. What this will probably involve is for members to pay for releases in advance to finance their production. All releases will be bootleg quality, but generally better than the "Epitaph" set. The cost is expected to be $175 American--about $100 pounds British. Before anyone gets too excited about the cost, note that it is a pre-payment with which the member selects items to purchase; there is no membership fee. The releases will comprise of items that will never be made available in the stores. "For example, one may be able to purchase Projekct 2 in Chicago." Mr Fripp also indicated that some live Frippertronic material may [finally!] be released in this manner. II. Projekct 3 will consist of Robert, Trey, and Pat. Mr Fripp has called this band a mini-KC. They will tour the South East and North West (U. S.) this Autumn. While I cannot be certain, it SOUNDS as if perhaps this will be the last Projekct. When Adrian asked me how I liked the concert, I told him that I would like to see some the material turn-up on their next album. He responded that we may see what they're doing now on a Crimson album, and the others quickly agreed. Again, this is just a guess on my part, but they really seem to feel they are getting close to a new KC. III. After the appearance I was able to have a brief private conversation with Mr Fripp. (A personal thrill that I won't try to describe.) I asked about the remaining Gates of Paradise Soundscapes and was informed that they await his attention, but clearly he does not plan to give them attention soon. As I generally suspected, he was unable to finish the set because there is simply too much there: it would take years to go through it all and he is "too busy at the moment being a musician." The decision was made to put out what was finished and move on with Projekcts. This is disappointing news for those of us who adore Soundscapes, but in fairness we have received six full discs in less than four years. Perhaps it's someone else's turn now. Perhaps some live Soundscapes through the club? We'll see. Mr Fripp also made a response to a recent posting on ET, but as he was unwilling to give details, I have decided not to pass on these comments. Finally, when I said that with all this information I was sure those of us in attendance would get at least some of his comments wrong, he indicated that he would be contacting the newsletter soon himself, but that he did want the information passed on, and that we "have it right from the horse's mouth." Anyone with questions can contact be by private e-mail, but this is really all I know. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:59:30 -0400 From: bruce higgins Subject: NEWS: B.L.U.E. rebroadcast 6/21 LiveConcerts.com Schedule Of Events http://www.liveconcerts.com/ * ----------------------------------------------------- June 10 @ 5:45 PM - Mike Welch Chat June 10 @ 6:30 PM - Mike Welch & David Maxwell June 12 @ 6:30 PM - Everclear & The Pietasters June 14 @ 3:30 PM - Deadhead Sunday: Jazz Is Dead & JGB Band June 19 @ 6:30 PM - Holly McNarland ******************************************************************** June 21 @ 3:30 PM - Bruford-Levin Upper Extremities & Charlie Hunter ******************************************************************** I don't know what is being broadcast, but I assume it is some or all of the Boston House of Blues show that was broadcast live. Regards to all, B___, still *digging* Space Grooves/Vector Patrol... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:25:53 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Lineup for the 30th Anniversary Concert songs (my version) This is a fairly trivial post, but I thought I might as well. The following would probably have to be edited, but I think it really just about covers KC. In The Court Of The Crimson King Cat Food Groon (Improv) Cirkus Larks' Tongues In Aspic Pt. I Exiles Larks' Tongues In Aspic Pt. II The Night Watch The Great Deciever Red Starless Thela Hun Ginjeet The Sheltering Sky Neal & Jack & Me Waiting Man Neurotica (with odd spoken bits) Three Of A Perfect Pair Dig Me Larks' Tongues In Aspic Pt. III Cage Inner Garden I & II (combined) 21st Century Schizoid Man Email me (or post, maybe) any additions or anything like that. Just something to do really. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:48:53 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: RE: re: vinyl If you're interested in KC sampled to dance music, Opus III did a version of "I Talk To The Wind" (which I was lucky enough to pick up in some out of the way record shop). However, I happen to think dance is a load of old *!?#$""%. Though, for you, I think you'd enjoy it. Look out for it. It's on one of their albums. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:14:09 EDT From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: RE: evolution...Devolution...CRIMSOLUTION I must say this is very interesting. Knowing Fripp, this is probably on purpose. Just to add a little something on the end, I would say that the main people in the double trio are Fripp, Belew, Levin, Bruford. Trey Gunn & Pat Mastelotto, although needed for any recent stuff, are just not neccesary on the 80's/70's classics at the shows . However, I think if we count the PROJEkCTS, Gunn has to be in there, since Fripp & he are (so far) in every single PROJEkCT. Camzone PS. I'd have to say that I prefer ITWOP to ITCOTCK or Lizard because it flows nicely. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 14:21:34 -0700 From: odsplut at ix dot netcom dot com Subject: ***NEWS OF THE WORLD*** This weeks (05 June-11 June, 1998) LA Weekly contains a two-paged, Scott Morrow penned young person's guide to king Crimson and musings on "Epitaph Vols. 1 & 2" "The Night Watch" "THRaKaTTaK" "Live in Japan" videotape No new news really... Though there is mention of "newsletter at elephant-talk dot com"... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:54:40 EDT From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Re: Mitchell and Fripp John Verkuilen wrote: >If Fripp--like say Prince >did--came out and said "Joni Mitchell's music was a big >influence on me" we'd have some ground to go on. But Fripp >seems to indicate in a number of interviews that he doesn't >listen to much of anything at all. In a survey published in the January 1980 issue of Trouser Press, Fripp listed his favorite albums of the '70s. Joni Mitchell's _Blue_ was the ONLY record he saw fit to list on which he himself didn't play. (It was also first on the list. The others were Fripp & Eno: _No Pussyfooting_, Eno: _Another Green World_, Bowie: _Heroes_, Blondie: _Parallel Lines_ and Talking Heads: _Fear Of Music_.) Myself, I'd love to hear Fripp play on a Joni Mitchell record. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:41:52 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: $, 1969... >From: Orn Orrason >Subject: Fripp and Toyah > >She tells us about a financial problem she and Robert had in >1991 when their investments had been taken away by a bank. >They lost virtually all their money... "But Robert and I sat >down like two team captains on a survival course and worked >out what we could save. Reddish house came top of the list. >From then on, for four years, I sometimes did three jobs a >day to pay off depts while Robert hit the road in the >states." > >Interesting isn't it ? What started Crimson in 1993 ? FYI: There's someone named Henry Potts in the rec.music.progressive newsgroup, who repeatedly accuses Fripp of being in it for the money. He absolutely LOVED this quote, as you might guess. >From: "Ted White" > >Sometimes I think Eb is contrary for the joy of it, but he >is quite incorrect in his references (in 503) to "the >original post," which is to say, my post. I made no >"assumption about how 'we all' were so blown away" by >ITCOTKC in the sense of assuming everyone presently reading >ET was there for that event. OK, here's your relevant text: "When KC was originally launched as 'King Crimson' -- which is to say, after the formative G,G&F era -- it came to most of us whole and complete, with the first album. We (the audience) missed most or all of the shows documented on EPITAPH; we had no advance warning. We digested the whole package, screaming cover and all...And what did we get from it? "Each of us must speak for ourselves about that, but my impression, formed at the time, was that the album had a unique impact on most of us. It stood out." You're definitely speaking a lot in the communal "we" person, when you should've spoken as "me" or something less presumptious/all-inclusive. You do say "most of us" twice, but my impression is that you're talking as if only "most of us" were knocked out by the album instantly, but that ALL of us were still "there" at the time, just maybe not so quick to pick up on the album's impact. Like, maybe some of us were grooving to the new Hendrix or Zappa records instead. Or whatever else. This really isn't that big a deal, but I felt the issue was worth pointing out. Let's drop it. >I was talking about the album's impact when it was first >released and your absense from the scene hardly diminishes >that impact. Um, when did I claim otherwise? This certainly diminishes its impact on *me*, however. >This "I >wasn't there so it means nothing to me" line is punksterism >carried to an extreme and dooms those who practice it to >endlessly reinvent the wheel. And you talk about *me* interpreting posts to suit my own agenda? I never said anything even CLOSE to "it means nothing to me." All I said, and am saying, is this: You can't get the FULL sense of an innovation's impact unless you're there at the time, to witness the shock of the new firsthand, measured against the existing zeitgeist. Similarly, you can't experience the true SHOCK of (for instance) Lincoln's assassination via history books. I don't think this is such a radical claim. Another example: no matter how many touching, perceptive news features I see/read about John Lennon's murder, nothing will *ever* compare to that moment of agape horror in Dec, 1980 when Tritia Toyota jumped into my TV screen with a "Special Report" and broke the news. That's just the way it is. You can't duplicate those emotions with academic research. To get back to the subject at hand, sure, you can always discover music backwards, tracing current music back to its source and developing a historical appreciation for the evolution of the art form. But it's never quite the same experience -- it's tainted by your knowledge of subsequent history. When I first heard ITCOTCK (circa 1980-1981), I thought it was a great album. I was even "shocked" by the perverse transition between "21st Century Schizoid Man" and "I Talk to the Wind," where the ultimate din abruptly shifts into the sweetest flute note ever heard. That sounded quite daring to me. Still does. However, at the same time, I was smiling knowingly at the archaic Mellotron and the dated flowery lyrical style. At the same time, I was thinking, "You know, this is great, but I don't like it as well as 'The Wall.'" Or 'Quadrophenia' or 'Foxtrot,' or a few other later albums I already owned, which arguably reflect a degree of ITCOTCK influence. That's just the way it is, when you're approaching a subject from a historical, rather than contemporary, perspective. This by no means indicates that ITCOTCK "means nothing to me" -- it doesn't even mean that I can't like the album just as much as someone who bought it in 1969. But it does mean that I'm perceiving the album within a time-tarnished, "corrupted" context. Eb np: the *gorgeous* new Rufus Wainwright album (and if he goes on to become the Brian Wilson/Randy Newman/Van Dyke Parks of the next decade, I'll always remember what a thrill it was to hear his debut for the first time) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:36:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: Absent lovers track selections On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 Rob MacCoun wrote: >Forgive me in advance for whining; I'll keep it brief. Did >they really leave "Sheltering Sky" off of Absent Lovers? It >ranks as the 4th most popular track on the ET Web survey >#2--the only discipline-era track in the top 10. >Considering how many of the other tracks are already >available in live versions on Great Deceiver and/or Night >Watch (okay, different band), B'Boom (overlapping band), or >Frame by Frame (same band), I can't believe they couldn't >make room for SS. (Do I really need a 4th version of >Indiscipline?) I suspect the explanation might be that SS >wasn't on the 1984 set list, This is correct. I was not at the 84 shows, but from the... erm, "stuff" I've heard, it was not played. >that raises another gripe: >Why the '84 tour instead of the more passionate '81/'82 tours? Well, I'm sure that those will be released at some point. IIRC, the show is recorded from Montreal July 1984. This show has been bootlegged (I have seen the LP of it), and perhaps (like )The Night Watch_) it was a logical choice. Also, perhaps it was jusst a darn good show. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:17:19 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Overdue Correction and Roxy/KC at Frejus Back in ET #497, Michael Flaherty made the common error of mistaking me for my brother David when he wrote: "Since my first listen of P2 (at a Soundscape show) I have felt much like "ET Web" Dan has about these sessions." This was in response to a post David wrote in ET #495 about his impressions of P2. They could not have been in response to anything I've written given I haven't heard the P2 CD beyond what Fripp had playing before and after the Soundscapes shows I attended back in January. I believe this was what likely prompted David to subsequently sign his next post in ET #504 as such: "David (not to be confused with Dan the ET web-man) Kirkdorffer" So as to settle all the confusion once and for all, I'm the one who doesn't play guitar. Hope that helps! :^) Meanwhile, also in ET #504, Arnie Schulberg asked who opened the show at the Roxy Music/KC gig in Frejus back in 1982. As one of two Kirkdorffers who read this digest that attended the show, I can categorically say that KC opened the show for Roxy. I say as much in my ET Web review of "The Noise" video at http://www.elephant-talk.com/releases/frejus.htm . Hope that settles that issue. Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:34:54 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: More on Crimsolution ***See ET #506 for Crimsolution*** Just more to my strange Crimsolution theory. Has anyone else noticed before that when you line the four tracks in the seven minute mark off of Lark's Tongues you get this: Lark's Tongues Part 2 (7.12) The Talking Drum (7.26) Exiles (7.40) Easy Money (7.54) Each song goes longer by 14 seconds than the previous one. On THRAK the three 5 minute songs show this pattern: One Time (5.21) VROOOM VROOOM (5.37) People (5.53) 16 second differences! Weird huh? Stu "Please Crimson, come to Australia!" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:39:30 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: ELP and Fountains of Wayne OK, I know this newsletter is for Crimson but I just have to get this off of my chest. Has anyone noticed at the beginning of 'Sink to the bottom with you' by Fountains of Wayne shows a picture of someone playing a keyboard near a lake. There is a big banner over the front of the lake which reads: "Emerson Lake" It's 'pattern' week for me! Stuart "Crrrriimmmmssssssssoooonnnnnnnn....pllleeeeeeaaase come to Australia!!!!!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 09:34:00 EDT From: "Gilman, Bill (ext. 216)" Subject: On vinyl >There are reasons that vinyl (snap, crackle, pop) has >been on the way out for years. We have better toys >now. Let it die. IMHO, analog sound recording and reproduction is superior to digital when both are compared using the highest quality components. After all, sound is an analog wave form. I remember comparing vinyl and CD copies of Lark's Tongues In Aspic on a $30,000 audio system at the home of a member of the Philadelphia Audiophile Society and being completely convinced of the validity of my statement above. The vinyl literally blew the CD away. However, very few folks have this type of equipment. On my system (differing from the aforementioned one by a mere two orders of magnitude), the CD sounds better (mostly due to the lack of surface noise). I believe that CDs have assumed their present position as the preferred audio distribution vehicle of choice because: 1. They are (arguably) more durable than vinyl. 2. They cost less to manufacture, and the selling price can be higher due to the perceived advantages (therefore they present a higher profit potential for the record companies). 3. They are more convenient (smaller, etc.) and 4. When used in conjunction with common, mass produced consumer electronics, they offer (arguably) higher quality sound reproduction. Given an unlimited budget, which, unfortunately, few of us have, I would opt for tube pre-amp and amplifier, and a non-contact turntable (they do exist). Hats off to our ET moderators and contributors for the most intelligent list on the net. Bravo. Bill Gilman Rochester, NY (Home of the Tony Levin, er, Eastman School of Music) ***************** Currently bothering my fellow workers with *Storyteller* by Ray Davies. On CD. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:47:07 -0400 From: Rich Grasso Subject: detailed release dates Was wondering if anyone knew or had a list of the exact release dates for all of the Crimson albums? I am specifically looking for the exact day that Three Of A Perfect Pair was released Rich Grasso ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:36:31 EDT From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Two Hands, Rock & Folk and Sherlock Just a few quick things. In ET #505 Neal Brown indicated that he's "always really liked Belew's lyrics. (Except for Two Hands.)". It should be noted that Two Hands was in fact written by Margaret Belew, not Adrian. For what it's worth, IMO Adrian is probably the most intricate and intelligent lyricist KC has ever had. A bit further down in that digest Christophe Gauthier talked about some Fripp articles in Best and Rock & Folk magazine, and said, "anyone interested for a translation of the 2 KC's french press interviews ? contact me...". Thanks for the offer Christophe! We actually already have the Rock & Folk interview at ET Web's interview page (I did the translation 3 years ago). But we don't have the July 81 Best interview you mentioned. Hopefully soon I will get the translated Jan 79 Best article/interview with Robert Fripp back from the ETers that volunteered to do that for us. And finally, thanks to TJ for reminding us that Tony Levin tied the knot last month (Tony mentioned the upcoming event in one of his recent Internet chats). Congratulations Tony!! Dan ET Web P.S. Vanessa - no, you don't have to indicate your nationality when you post to ET. Some people sometimes simply feel it relevant to what they are writing. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:40:46 -0700 From: "Andy Gower" Subject: What Is Jazz? Helping those following the thread of jazz as it concerns KC, Miles Davis and others; here is the definition of jazz music from the editors of the All-Music Guide To Jazz: "Jazz is music that emphasizes improvisation and always has the feeling of the blues. All of the other potential qualities (including swing, a steady rhythm, high musicianship, individuality and even the ability to play in tune) are optional if often desired. What makes music jazz is the fact that a particular piece is not played the same way every time, and that individual and collective expression are considered much more significant than trying to duplicate a recorded performance in concert; the exact opposite of most pop music! Ragtime is entirely written out while New Age and forms of Indian music have improvisation but lack any blues feeling, so each of these styles fall outside of jazz." Discuss for next class. Andy Gower http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Arena/2763/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 18:58:18 +0100 From: MH Subject: Not for audiophiles... "J.A. Hogard" wrote: > And maybe the Obsolete Technology Fairy will bring to our pillows > vinyl-ROM drives for those enhanced multimedia LP's. And the > portable TurntableMan for jogging. There are reasons that vinyl... > has been on the way out for years. We have better toys now. > Let it die. Actually there was, albeit briefly, a real vinyl walkman. Don't ask. --mikeh97 at gis dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:39:02 -0400 From: "Brian Lindsay" Subject: re: Frejus Concert >Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:07:35 EDT >From: ASchulberg at aol dot com >Subject: Frejus Concert > >> From a post on my Roxy Music mailing list: > << There is also that situation with Roxy and King Crimson >recording video concerts at the same venue in Frejus France, >namely "The High Road" and King Crimson's "The Noise". I >don't think we established who opened for who, but I say >Roxy opened for KC. >> >Can anyone with firsthand knowledge confirm who opened for >whom at Frejus? I'd appreciate a private e-mail reply as >well as a post. The booklet in the "Frame by Frame" Box set clearly says that Crimson supported Roxy Music. See the section with the list of tour dates. (No big suprise here surely? Wasn't this part of the Avalon tour for Roxy Music) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:22:56 +0200 From: "Mira International" Subject: Re: Impact of ITCOTCK and LTIA Hi King Crimson lovers, Talking about impact (Ted White ET 500 and 506): 1. It was 1969 and I was 17, living in a small town in Holland. We went to a record shop every week to see the new releases. In the local paper a weekly Top 5 of Lp's from the town (around 80.000 inhabitants) was printed. One week, out of nothing, there was this album In the Court of the Crimson King by King Crimson on the number 1 spot. Weird title and name and an album cover without a photo of the group! When we started listening we were blasted by 21st Century Schizoid Man. To us it was the ultimate high level protest. What an explosion of energy, what a drive, what a courage, an exposure of naked truth. It changed our view of life, it made us feel that you can really break away from the establishment (as we called it in those times) in a radical way and come up with something more true or nearer the truth of life. I never was so proud of my town of birth. Such an album, such music on number One. And I should say that I still feel that 21st Century Shizoid Man is the protest song of the century. 2. A girlfriend of mine had grown up with middle of the road music and found my taste of music incomprehensible. "How can you listen to such music?" I made no effort to show her how to listen to 'my music'. Then one day I put on King Crimson's Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part One really loud. As you'll know it starts off softly and melodically, thus so far so good. But then comes the blast unexpectedly from the open air and that blast -you might not believe it- blew away her prejudice to all other types of music that are away from the middle of the road. This King Crimson song opened her ears to the beauties of music. Now there is hardly music where she cannot find the way in which to listen so the music will reveal its beauty. And this was not a one time event. A few years later a girl from India, whom I knew in India for 20 years, came to Holland. She grew up with Indian film music and Simon and Garfunkel. She also could not understand my taste of music. "You people really seem to listen to music and be interested in it". When I put up unannounced the same King Crimson song, she had the same experience. From that point on she was eager to learn to listen and to appreciate alternative music. I think that because King Crimson songs are often very clean and direct, that the effect especially on women -they like 'cleanness', honesty and beauty- can be an opening of their ears to 'a new song'. Still it is astonicing that one song, one movement in a song can have such an effect. And the more astonishing when it concerns the same experience in two persons from different cultures. So to all you guys who feel or think King Crimson is too difficult to share with your girlfriend(s), there is hope. Just play the right song and let the music do the work of opening up her ears. It's worth the try. And to King Crimson and especially Robert Fripp, thanks a lot for the beauty of the music, the openings, the example of staying and becoming what you are, the message and vision, the philosophy (a rare feature in music) and all else. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:48:53 +0100 (BST) From: dinosaur Subject: Thrak pattern in ET #506 MarkJX wrote: > 2) I would like some quick help in determining > the underlying rhythm pattern in Thrak. I have > a hard time hearing it for some reason and > don't have anyone that I can really play it off > with. Is it one pattern of 6 over another > pattern of 7? Okay, this is the way that I have always understood the pattern. The main Thrak 'riff' (or whatever you'd like to call it) is in 5. It goes: *--------*-----*--------*----- * ------------------------------ 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 with the emphasis on the 1st and 4th beats of each bar. The second pattern overlaid on top of this is in seven, and goes something like this: *--------*-----*-----*--------*-----*--- * ---------------------------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 with the emphasis on the 1st, 4th and 6th beats of each bar. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wildly out here. When I think of the two drummers playing through this pattern, I think they both start out doing the first pattern in sync, and then one (not sure which) changes it to the second, and these two rhythms modulate around each other a bit, until they resume both playing the first pattern together again. That probably doesn't make sense to anyone, but it does to me!! James. +----------------------------------------------+ JamesBeard @ www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ +----------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:01:00 +0200 From: "Severiens, Marco" Subject: Greg Lake a loudmouth? (reaction to Ted I was pleased to read Ted's arguments regarding ITKOTCK and Ian MacDonald. Personally I think I might like KC's music again with Ian in it. I agree on Ted's point that Ian MacDonald is still very talented. I think his valuable contribution to Steve Hackett's 'The Tokyo Tapes' proves that. But I don't understand Ted calling Greg Lake a 'loudmouth'. I don't think ET is meant to pick on musicians, and if you do, please explain why you think Greg Lake is a loudmouth. There might be ET readers who also like ELP and who might be dedicated ELP fans as well. Personally I think Lake's singing on ITCOTKC was beautiful and that his voice and bassplaying contributed to the success of the album. About Tokyo Tapes... I fully agree on Jonathan's review of Hackett's 'The Tokyo Tapes'. Beside the two early KC songs Hackett, MacDonald, Wetton, Kolbeck and Thompson also play beatiful reinterpretations of Genesis classics and of course some stuff by Hackett (his 2 studiotracks are great!). For John Wetton fans there's 'Battlelines' on it and an acoustic version of 'Heat of the Moment'. I found almost all tracks to be improvements to the original classics exept for 'I know what I like'. A very refreshing album by some of the greatest musicians, highly recommended. greetings, Marco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 05:56:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Basile Subject: Boots/Intro to Crimson Hello Fellow Eter, Have to mention, since a few of my post are about boot legs, that I have never taped a boot, or have taken a recording device to any concert, or camera for that matter. I have never made money off a boot,though I did a few good barters. I feel that I am an bootlegger-amature- semi collector,that is kind of mentioned on INDICIPLE MINING ROCKS. I feel guilty. As a non- musician,I don't have a clue what is is like for some one to invade your privacy, and sell it. I know I shouldn't support this type of crime, which it is, but with Crimson I can't seem to control myself. Any private email on this is welcomed to support or change my habit. Is it a form of voyerisum? A interesting thread, to me would be fellow ETers introduction into to Crimson. Here is mine. I bought ICOTCK in 1973 after hearing it on the radio numerous times. Never got into any other Crimson until College. A Buddy,Chico, Bought STARLESS AND BIBLE BLACK. We would listen to this daily. I fell in love with; THE NIGHT WATCH,TRIO, EZ$,FRACTURE, in this order. He finally gave me his 8track copy of this. Chico also gave me his 8track copy of LTIA. I didn't even know RED was out until I saw a cut-out copy of this. Loved; FALLEN ANGLE, then PROVIDENCE, then my all-time favorite STARLESS. Bought everything of their early works and solo stuff, including an import copy of NO PUSSY FOOTING,that I didn't understand at the time. Bought most of it since. Saw Crimson for the first time in AKRON, OHIO in Feb of 1981.Went with Chico. Sitting by myself, the man next to me asked why Fripp didn't solo anymore? During the entire show every time Fripp soloed I gave him my binoculars. He had tears in his eyes after THE SHELTERING SKY.So did I! Also saw, BRUFORD, ALLAN HOLDSWORTH BAND, LOCG,CRIMSON/HORDES,3G/SOUNDSCAPE,and last week's P2 concert. Each was a rave! Oh, a great Crimson related concert I when to was ABWH& Levin at the Palumbo Center in the Burg. This was the best I ever saw YES. The worst ,IMHO was the UNION TOUR . I did see UK, with Wetton,Bruford, Holdsworth, Jobson in a small move theater. This was very good. But the best was the first time seeing Crimson in 1981,and last week's P2 show,pure magic! Warmly, Basile By The Three Rivers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:14:55 +0100 (BST) From: dinosaur Subject: When will DGM Web update New Releases Just wondering if anyone has an idea if DGM plans to update their web pages ever. The 'new releases' section still has only the releases from last September's Night Watch playback. No mention of BelewPrints, PROJEkCT 2, BLUE or any other recent releases. James. +----------------------------------------------+ JamesBeard @ www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ +----------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:09:38 -0400 From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Subject: Vinyl vs CDs and Twinkies Frank Oteri said... < BQ > The reality is that vinyl refuses to die as the myriad collectors who hunt all records and the specialty shops that continue to sell limited edition pressings of new releases on vinyl can attest. (The new scam is to charge more for a vinyl issue than its CD counterpart. If vinyl sounded inferior, why would people be buying up the vinyl pressings at a higher price. Yeah, yeah, the digitalists have a "there's a sucker born every minute" comeback for this I know. . .) < EQ > Although this thread has in the past been dealt with here, i would like to point out the work of Michael Fremer, who writes a monthly column for Stereophile. It is interesting to note that vinyl sales have been steadily increasing here in the US, and that many new releases actually can be found on vinyl, although it is difficult. The fact is that it is very difficult to get CD recordings to sound as good as vinyl, though things are rapidly changing. Extreme care must be taken in every step of the mastering and production chains, and then one has to have excellent digital gear. And if you doubt this, try SITTING and listening to CDs for a couple of hours: you'll quickly find that you want to shut your stereo off due to digital fatigue. Plug a decent (say, VPI, or Basis) turntable in to the same system and listen to the same recordings on vinyl, and you'll find you can listen for a much longer time. Hey--this isn't to say vinyl doesn't wear out. Of course there are advantages to CD (which can actually sound good, at its very best). But let us remember that we're talking MUSIC here. Sure--I'll be able to leave a box of twinkies to my descendents (and they'll sure stay chemically fresh), but I don't think for a minute that they will prefer this taste to, say, a very perishable Filet Mignon. -Emory PS: Want to hear what good CD can sound like? Listen to the Mobile Fidelity version of Muddy Water's "Folksinger" record. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:58:07 PDT From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: Joni Mitchell Dear ET, Just a quick note to add to the Joni Mitchell thread. There is indeed a Mitchell-Fripp connection! I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, but I recall an interview in which Robert Fripp mentioned several 1960s albums he looked forward to acquiring on CD: among them were Hendrix's ELECTRIC LADYLAND and Joni Mitchell's BLUE. As I recall, he described these as albums that had particularly impressed him at the time they were first released. BLUE is a beautiful acoustic album and a good introduction to Mitchell's early work. Of course, she went far beyond her folk origins later, branching out into jazz and electricity. A tremendously versatile musician and composer, IMHO, and well worth exploring. According to the YPG booklet, one of the first songs learned by the 1969 KC was a cover of Ms. Mitchell's "Michael From Mountains." Give a listen to the 1968 demo of "I Talk to the Wind" with Judy Dyble's vocal and it isn't hard to imagine a Mitchell influence. Any thoughts on KC and folk music? If I recall, bassist Rick Kemp tried out for the ISLANDS band, but ended up quitting to join Steeleye Span. SS took upon itself the task of reinterpreting British folk music for the rock era. Best, Doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 08:51:00 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: GIG REVEIW: ProjeKct Two Concert in Detroit Attended last night's ProjecKt Two concert at the Majestic Theater on Woodward (Detroit's cultural corridor), a fine small hall, with some 1000 people in the audience, I'm guessing. Spiffed up the hall since the last time I was there for an acoustic concert by Richard Thompson, Pentangle opening. Following Concrete Blonde's concert here (2/6/94), I decided, that's it, no more rock concerts (for reasons other than the Blonde concert, which was excellent). Last night Adrian Belew, Robert Fripp, and Trey Gunn changed all that. Beautiful cool evening out in town, sun falling in twilight amid a few scattered gray clouds. The manager walks out, saying there's no smoking in the hall, so lots of people light up before the doors open; others go for the Amos nicotine patches while Adrian went for the Roland patches; the lone amp I have is a Roland bass that I picked up on the cheap a couple of years ago. I bought Adrian's "Belewprints" and Trey's "The Third Star," on entering, the guy selling the discs giving me DGM's "The Young Person's Guide to Discipline" sampler before we took our seats some twenty feet from Robert's equipment. Robert, Adrian and Trey walk out, put their fists above each other on the vertical axis before moving to their instruments (above, the voice of Alec Guinness: "The Vdrums, Adrian. Use the Vdrums.") All out thraking: Adrian's drumming taking off like rockets from the launching pad of the "Space Groove" recording, rocking up samples with a hundred hurtled electronic voices, Trey's Warr mixing with Robert's guitar on either side, great wide voicings by both musicians, the Warr meshing in counterpoint to burned sustained notes and rapid firelight fretwork from Robert. A couple of times, with the guitars full out, I thought the Roland drums were a bit covered, but overall, all three musicians opened it up with precise abandon. Some of the unison chording by Trey and Robert reminded me some of the shorter figures used on the Thrak recording. During intermission, hyped-up from the opening set, I bought Robert's "The Gates of Paradise," the title of which seemed perfect for the music we'd heard. After intermission, Adrian lit up on his acoustic, with great versions of "Men in Helicopters," "Young Lions" and "Three of a Perfect Pair," my hair standing on end and shivers up my backbone after Adrian finished "Perfect Pair." After further transections of the galaxy for the second set, Robert moved to the mike: "Ladies and eager young gentlemen: I've been coming to Detroit for 29 years now. Detroit still kicks ass." Adrian plays his acoustic for the encore Dinosaur, then the band finishing with Vroom, the Vdrums softening the edges from the Thrak version. Adrian and Trey were signing CDs, Space Groove T-shirts, ticket stubs. I brought the liner notes from Space Groove which they both signed, still walking on air: "Adrian! Preeminent Vdrums player!" "Thanks." Are any other percussionists using this set, or have recorded with it? Walking back to the car, singing Dinosaur in the night. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:32:14 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 in Chicago (both nights) I know many ETers were at these shows; I'll let them tell you about what was said, what Adrian's set consisted of, etc. So... When you are wrong you should admit to being so. While I stand by my comments on Space Groove (OK, but not going anywhere new), these two performances show that the band is indeed growing at a rapid pace. The jazz influence is still there (and suspect is there to stay), but rather than simply jamming, P2 is now experimenting within structures (which I assume were developed from improvs). This was very clear as most riffs (if you can call them that ) on Friday were recoginizable from Thursday's performance. Yet Trey and Robert's playing within these musical concepts was radically different each evening. In particular, I found Mr Fripp's playing constrained (but often beautiful) on Thursday, while on Friday he played full-speed on most solos. I was in the third row on Thursday and front row centre on Friday. Very generally, Adrian played a beat in which Trey and Robert, with much eye contact, improvised over. Mr Belew did get to play some solos--often with a vibes sound. Recent claims that he is almost as good as Bruford are demonstratively untrue (technically), but his straight yet interesting playing provided an excellent backdrop for the guitars. Mr Gunn was very strong. My only complaint was his use of the definitive Fripp sound at points. Yes, it's impressive for anyone to be able to imitate Robert Fripp so well, but I prefer him to sound like Trey Gunn. Among the most interesting additions to P2's sound was Robert's use of Soundscapes. Adrian and Trey showed themselves more than capable of improvising on top of these beautiful sounds--Trey's solo on Thursday earned him special (deserved) applause from Mr Fripp. The audience by me was, with the exception of a small group of drunks, surprisingly entusiastic: only after Mr Belew's solo rendition of "Three of a Perfect Pair" did they yell for KC classics; in the tradition of Jazz, solos were applauded and musicians bowed to the audience. P2's development is impressive. These two concerts showed a great deal of depth and that, alone or with KC, the players are indeed ready to move into an incredible musical period. I can't wait. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 22:29:33 -0400 From: Bill Wade Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2, Pittsburgh Random thoughts, non-sequiturs, etc: Talk about luck. In between hellish weather nights that brought hail, heavy rain, and tornadoes, conditions were perfect for P2 to do their thing in P-burgh. The crowd was a lot larger than I expected, though I'd be hard pressed to estimate an attendance figure. General admission + early arrival put me 4th row center (right behind the guy with the ponytail and black leather hat, whom I heard mention ET a couple times), directly in front of Belew's kit. Pre-game: Some piece of Samsonite behind me explains to the crowd why Gunn & Mastelatto aren't "real" KC members and an unconvincing transvestite (who doesn't even know who's playing) hits on every single male in the vicinity. All the fun of the cirkus. First set: ~50 minutes. Scorching. Belew was having a ball with the V-drums. He's the star of this show. Anyone who doubts TG's contribution should have a different opinion now. Second set: ~40 min. Not having read my ET much lately, I didn't know Belew was doing an acoustic thing. "Young Lions" and "Men In Helicopters" went over like gangbusters, a nice break from the P2 intensity. The second set wasn't as hot as the first, but it wasn't bad. Encore: Belew returns for acoustic "Dinosaur", which seems to convert the few remaining doubters. Absolute highlight of the show: Fripp returns to the stage clapping for Belew. He then stops, cup his hands around his mouth, and screams "WHOOO"s at the top of his lungs, a la most of the audience, until he looks as if he's about to pass out. Lounge "VROOOM" wraps it up. 4th or 5th standing ovation of the night. Fripp seemed pleased with the audience, smiling, laughing, etc. Worth a 6 hour drive? You betcha. Just stay away from the I.C. Light. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 13:29:36 -0500 From: John Barnas Subject: GIG REVIEW: Perspectives from Ohio Hi Everybody, I experienced the Cincinnati and Columbus P2 gigs and have some thoughts to share after a week of mulling things about. First of all, I was blown away by the Nashville P2 world premier and also received a tape of that show which confirmed that the music grooved in a way that moves me immensely. So it was a bummer every time I heard a negative review of some of the P2 gigs. I went to Cinci with expectations of hearing stuff similar to Nashville but, of course, with variations and maybe even refinement of sorts. The Cinci show did not move me the same way Nashville did. In fact for me it was a let-down. With all due respect to fans who enjoyed Cinci let me explain. I realize that what I really like about certain bands is when the musicians play in a way that they listen to each other and jam a song until "something" takes over that makes the outcome greater than the sum of its parts. J. Garcia called this the X-factor. Many of you know what I mean. It's simply when the music takes over and moves in a groove and just gets you. Am I getting too technical here? Nashville did that thing during the live performance and it is reflected in the tape recording (sorry Robert, I had to hear it again) I decided that the word to describe it is, at least, synchronicity. The boys were on the same page. O.K., so I felt that Cincinatti didn't have it. Maybe it was the fact that Robert's guitar went dead 3 or 4 times during the 1st set. Maybe it was the fact that Bogart's sucked for acoustics and turning up the PA to ear-splitting levels did'nt help matters. Anyway I tried to receive the music but it kept fizzling (IMO). On the 3 hour drive home I wondered if the non-dazzle was because of whatever mood I was in. Or maybe this was just an off-night for P2 and the negative reviews happened after similar off-nights. I don't doubt that this type of music isn't easy to play every show. The Newport Music Hall show in Columbus, the following night, was excellently supreme! Robert started solo with gorgeous soundscaping (absent at Cinci) and from that point on there was synchronicity and nice jamming and grooving all night (X-Factor)! There was no fizzling. The energy kept increasing. Here was the stuff I hoped to be delighted with. The song with Trey's "voice" patch or whatever just soared in Columbus. I heard the words "He gives no shelter" clearly. The rendition of this song in Cinci was yucky, forced, muddled. In Columbus my eyes were closed and filled with tears (I'm wierd) so I thought it was Robert soloing over soundscapes but I now think it was Trey. It was a beautiful end to the second set and night. The space version of VROOOM did make me chuckle both nights. So, in closing, I feel that some nights P2 will not be as synchronized. Yes, I've already heard tapes of these two shows and my opinions were confirmed as far as this perspective is concerned. Why did I want to tell you this? So that any Crim fans who either don't like the Space Grooves release (not representative of live P2) or, more importantly, those who saw P2 on a non-synchronized night will give this music another chance. In the year 2014, when the ProjeKct 2 live shows are released by DGM, remember to listen to the Nashville and Columbus cuts. Good stuff. Hope this wasn't too much of a ramble but I want y'all to get a chance to get the feeling I get about the present trio. Sincerely, John P.S. Since the newer P2 song sounded 98.3% like King Crimson (like Red and B'Boom mixed together) I told Trey and Adrian that this was "the best King Crimson show I'd ever seen". They both seemed somewhat miffed in replying "That's great but this is NOT King Crimson". I wonder what Robert would say... that's for another ramble. Peace. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #507 ********************************