Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #502 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 502 Tuesday, 26 May 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Release date of upcoming Cd by the California Guitar Trio NEWS: Hello Magazine. NEWS: Article on Tony Levin in The News-Times (Danbury,Ct) 5/22/98 30th Anniversary Concert - San Fransisco? I should hope not! P2 - Space Grooves IMO Looking for a video bootleg! RE: P2 at Irving Plaza 5/6 - "You're an Idiot!" "Millennial redefinition" and Blue Man Group Album talk Send a P2/Space Groove CD to George Lucas William Rieflin info Beyond The 500 Vector Patrol .9 Interupted! THRAK on Vinyl?? Re: Information Re: Moody Blues influence on KC? Re: Trainspotting Giles, Giles & Fripp toby, P2/BLUE, Stephen King, covers, demographics Epitaph Park West-Chicago Projekct 2 - An admirable failure OFF-TOPIC: Pablo Casals Fripp in.... Hello magazine??!! Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ProjecKt 2 article? bye Alchemy. Absent Lovers etc. Availability Fripp and audience Under Heavy Manners / God Save the Queen Comments? CD/LP? Great Deceiver rerelease DGM Catalogs on CDs ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: ROBERTP81E Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:47:33 EDT Subject: NEWS: Release date of upcoming Cd by the California Guitar Trio Hi to all, In the rush of listing out the tracks on the upcoming "Absent Lovers" double live album, I forgot to mention that the release date of the "Pathways" CD by the California Guitar Trio is also June 23, 1998 (.... in the US, I presume ....). I've gotten this bit of information from the June 1998 issue of the Ice magazine. It's kind of funny but the information was not correctly given in the magazine .... since the album is credited to the California Guitar Music and the label is listed as Discipline Global Music. There's too much Music on the new CGM from DGM! By the way, I did send a message pointing out these discrepancies to the editorial staff at the Ice magazine. Aloha, Robert. P.S. The URL address of the Ice magazine is http://www.icemagazine.com. Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:50:54 -0500 To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com From: "Chris 'Coz' Costello" Subject: NEWS: P2 in-store in Chicago In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey there, I stopped at Tower Records on Clark Street in Chicago yesterday, and along with a prominent display of ProjeKct Two's CD, was a flyer advertising that Bob, Ade and Trey will be signing CDs and whatnot on Saturday, June 6th, after the two nights of shows at the Park West. I didn't get the time, as I won't be able to attend, but I thought I'd pass the info along. Later, COZ Chris 'Coz' Costello || http://www.tezcat.com/~coz || coz at tezcat dot com "H I P N E S S I S T R A N S I E N T...you've got to change in order to be continually hip." - Vinnie Colaiuta ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:39:49 -0400 From: TREVOR TURLEY Subject: NEWS: Hello Magazine. My wife has been in hospital over the last few days. A hysterectomy for those of you interested! During the odd hours spent at her bedside I have been fortunate enough to be able to leaf through many "Womens" magazines. Whilst flicking through Hello magazine, dated May 23, Number 510, (Is this really a womens magazine?) I came across an article on page 4! Who should be staring out of those pages but none other than dear old Robert and his wife, Toyah, of 12 years. I won't go into great detail. The magazine is still available in your local newsagent. So, if you wish to know more about the article, then rush down to your local cornershop. I can just imagine all these Crimsonites rushing out to get a copy of Hello! No, I don't work for the magazine, but if sales increase due to my post then I claim any commision going! Just as an aside, the article covers 7 pages and includes some superb colour pictures in true Hello style. Relaxing at home with Beaton (!) and coffee tables etc! Personally, what a superb house and grounds. Such a relaxing environment, Soundscapes pervade every corner! Extremely condusive to creativity. Do I sound jealous, you bet! Question: Robert, or Toyah, were the gardens the inspiration for the cover of Epitaph? If my garden was used it would be for "My Old Man's A Dustman" (That's by Lonnie Donnigan, ex 50's skiffle king). Get your copy today, Trev . . . (In the U.K.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:25:48 -0400 From: Anderson Family Subject: NEWS: Article on Tony Levin in The News-Times (Danbury,Ct) 5/22/98 Here is some info on article published 5/22/98 on the front page of The News-Times (Danbury, Ct) Weekend Section regarding an exhibition of Tony Levin's photographs. Entitled "It's OK, He's With The Band" the article talks about Tony's life on the road and his photography work whch is on display through June 26 at Connecticut Photo- graphics, 128 East Liberty St, Danbury, CT. Unfortunately the article is not available at The News-Times web site. Included with the article are two color photos - one of Tony himself and one of Robert Fripp. If you are going to be in the Danbury area, you can call CT Photographics at (203) 791-1474. John Anderson (jta53) majak at ct2 dot nai dot net P.S. Why does the cassette "The Compact King Crimson" include Red & Cat Food, but not the CD?!?! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 08:31:01 EDT From: Camzone Subject: 30th Anniversary Concert - San Fransisco? I should hope not! If King Crimson were to do a 30th Anniversary Concert, I think Mr. Fripp would make sure it was in the UK, since they are a UK band (well, originally). Somewhere in the Fulham Palace Cafe area, on January 13th would be nice. But all the way in San Fransisco would be very... odd. Just my 0.02 pence, but that thought may add up to about a tenner if everyone had their say. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:56:16 PDT From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: P2 - Space Grooves IMO I recently purchased ProjeKct Two - Space Grooves (2 cd's) at Best Buy in South County, St.Louis, Mo. for $9.99 + tax. IMO this cd is an excellent example of what professional musicians need to do to remain experimental. If one does the same thing for too long one gets stuck in a rut. The members of KC have prided themselves on being able to re-invent themselves time after time and thus, giving us, as an audience, something new, invigorating, and refreshing to listen to. All KC members have a wide plethera of musical backgrounds and never stay rooted to one spot for very long. As a musician I too find myself always looking for new audible stimulus that will enhance my playing and KC is one of those bands that has fulfilled that need. Of course for me it would be a treat just to sit down with Adrian, Robert, Bill, and Tony and record an album of total improv (but alas, I know that dream will probably never come true - Still I can dream can't I). Anyway, this recording shows the (possible) new path that KC is embarking upon as well as testing the limits of there listeners. For those who have and will experience this CD and don't like it ask yourself this question : Are You A True Crimson Fan ? sincerely Alfred (the Waiting Man) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 09:44:57 -0600 From: "LIEDO" Subject: Looking for a video bootleg! I have been looking for a video bootleg, it is King Crimson as the opening act for the Stones in the Hyde Park in 1969, some months later the best progressive rock album in history saw the light of day! NTSC Preferred but PAL will be OK also. I have some hard to find bootlegs like videos from 1973 with Jamie Muir or CD or tape of the first show of King Crimson in Mexico City, and more. Best regards Gerardo Liedo MEXICO CITY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:39:01 -0400 From: Chad Ossman Subject: RE: P2 at Irving Plaza 5/6 - "You're an Idiot!" >Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:23:46 -0400 From: Steve Smith > Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 at Irving >Plaza 5/6 - "You're an Idiot!" > >No, that comment, from the balcony, was directed at an >audience member who'd arrived obviously tripping, proceeded >to smoke at least four joints and drink at least four >beers, and then insisted on dancing around in wildly >spinning circles, crashing into several audience members, >including myself (repeatedly), my companion and the New >York Times reviewer Thanks for responding to my review. I read all the Irving Plaza reviews with interest, finding no mention of the aforementioned incident. Here I had begun to suspect I had made it up, perhaps out of a perverse desire for something horrible to happen, and an excuse to be thoroughly indignant about the downfall of polite society, like those poor folks in Philadelphia. It's unfortunate that only that comment would ring out across the room and not the vociferations of the real perpetrator. I apologize to the owner of the "you're an idiot" comment, for now I know you were only trying to help. Chad __________________________________ Chad Ossman home: co61 at columbia dot edu work: chado at weblab dot org web: http://www.columbia.edu/~co61 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:54:42 -0500 From: "Chris 'Coz' Costello" Subject: "Millennial redefinition" and Blue Man Group >Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:07:23 -0400 >From: "Ted White" >Subject: The Crimsoid Future > >And what of the 90's? Well, to begin with, the 90's are >almost over -- only a year and a half remain, not much time >for KC to find its new, "90's," sound/direction. (Perhaps >they should shoot for a Millennial redefinition instead) But >what is really needed is for the band to throw off the >shackles of thinking of the "old" KC approach as outdated >and confining. Redefinition means reexamining the band's >roots: its original goals and purposes. What is still >valid? What will lend itself to a fresh approach, while >maintaining continuity? I just wanted to pipe in something on the subject...does anyone know if Fripp has witnessed Blue Man Group? For those of you who don't know, BMG is a performance art group that may be best described as "post-industrial mime" that performs with a three-piece band behind them, occasionally joining them on a space-age percussion instrument made up of plastic tubing. The backing band includes at least one, and I've heard sometimes two, Chapman sticks. Basically, this IS music for the new millenium, and when I saw the performance, I couldn't help thinking "THIS is what the current Crim may be shooting for." It is far and away the coolest music I've ever heard in my life, and I am waiting for them to actually put out a recording of their material. The show is on an open run in NYC, Boston, and Chicago. It's expensive, but entirely worth it...maybe P2 can catch it in Chicago amidst the two June shows. Later, COZ Chris 'Coz' Costello || http://www.tezcat.com/~coz || coz at tezcat dot com "H I P N E S S I S T R A N S I E N T...you've got to change in order to be continually hip." - Vinnie Colaiuta ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:23:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Album talk Ted White wrote: > Everything KC has done since then has had to be measured > against that first album. Nothing the group has done since > that album has had the same quality of uniqueness -- nor can > it. One is unique. Several cannot be. Subsequent albums > can be seen as Not As Good As, Just As Good As, or Better > Than that first album, or even as Completely Different From, > but in one way or another, each must be compared with the > Original Album. This is true only for those who heard In The Court before others. I happen to have heard 'Starless and Bible Black' first (via my older sister's record collection, circa 1974), and the first KC album I *really* got into was USA. In the COurt, when I finally got around to listening to it, seemed rather tame in comparison. > I suspect that for Fripp at least, these inevitable > comparisons are odiously confining, a trap he wishes to > escape. But the question each of the current members of KC > must ponder is this: What is the essential nature, or > character, of KC's music that he feels must be maintained or > preserved in the future? The original KC played a broad > spectrum of music, ranging from conventional song forms to > extended suites, both written and improvised. What was the > common element that tied them together and made them "King > Crimson music"? Robert Fripp ;> > In 1979 Fripp gave me the impression that he'd grown tired > of the original Crimson music. Perhaps he'd played it too > much or for too long, or, more likely, he was tired of > having to keep coming up with more music of that style, > music that, to satisfy the fans, was > just-the-same-but-different. But what did Fripp do in 1979 (by which time KC has been disbanded for five years)? "Exposure", for one, which contained at least one track (Breathless) that *was* very Crimsonian (and which he seemed quite proud of, in interviews I've read.) His other activity was the 'small mobile unit' shows, where he essentially assayed "Asbury Park' -like soloing over his own 'Frippertronic' backdrops. I think what Fripp was tired of was being associated with 'prog rock' (as opposed to 'art rock') -- he wanted to show that he didn't want to be confined within that genre's boundaries. His work w/ Eno, Bowie, Gabriel, and the Roches were means towards this end. > He wanted to move on. When > DISCIPLINE came out we were told that the group had not come > together or rehearsed as "King Crimson," but as a group > known as "Discipline." So a significantly different > stylistic approach to the music (itself a refinement of > directions indicated in some of Fripp's solo recordings, as > well as that of The League of Gentlemen, both indications of > non-Crimson approaches) in the new KC was hardly surprising. > But, live, the "old" KC crept back into the mix. Not just live: "Indiscipline" (studio cut) , like "Breathless", seemed a direct link to the KC of old. > I got the > distinct impression that it was the other members of the > band, like Belew, who wanted to bring back a bit of the old > Crimso, at least onstage -- because they'd been fans of the > old band and it was a kick to play some of that music. > But I think Fripp also still had a soft spot for some of the old tunes -- he's even shown 'practicing' to Fracture backstage on the 3 of a PP tour video. It was Fripp who decided to rename 'Discipline' "King Crimson", despite the risk of seeming the hypocrite (he'd previously spoken to the effect that KC was dead, forever). Levin certainly wasn't very familiar with KC before joining, according to interviews. That leaves BB, who definitely loved the older stuff, and Belew, who was doubtless a fan as well, but neither of whom, I'd guess, had the 'clout' to demand that older tunes be played. And , of course, there's the problem of filling a set when you have only 40 mins worth of new material ;> > not extended much, if at all. (Fripp was pissed at Atlantic > for not issuing NO PUSSYFOOTING; he reportedly regarded it > as much more important than KC at that time. Was it? Or > was it simply different?) Fripp may well be an example of the Marxian character who disdains any club that would allow him to be a member. By the time NP was cut, Eno was markedly more 'cool' than KC (which after all had been around for half a decade). > I believe, from the recorded evidence, that Fripp set the > basic style for the 80's KC, although Adrian's songs and > vocals emphasized the shift away from the sound of the 70's > band. There's also written evidence: Fripp set up rules by which he expected Bruford to mold his drumming (e.g. at little cymbal work as possible). > (The 70's KC was British. Subsequent KCs have been > trans-Atlantic, Anglo-American bands. IMHO, the Americans, > no matter how individually talented, have diluted the mix > because they lack a cultural quality that was part of the > original equation.) (Imagine the Beatles with Mike > Bloomfield playing lead guitar instead of George Harrison, > or Eric Clapton....) The 90's KC launched itself with a > salvaged unused riff from "Red," and a surprisingly > Beatlesque approach -- very retro, really. I enjoyed the > hell out of it. I saw it as redeeming. But I hoped it was > setting the stage for the new KC, and now it is being > presented as the tidying up of loose ends and not properly > "90's music," whatever that might be. Something left over > to be gotten out of the way before moving on. But what they're 'moving on' to seems to be itself sort of Crimsonian version of 'free jazz' or jazz fusion from the 70's, pumped up with the latest technology. > The original KC wasn't "60's music," or "70's music." It > had its own unique (albeit sometimes lamely copied) sound > that was not part of the contemporary sounds of its era -- > and in fact had nothing to do with popular music of that > time. (There is no hint of disco in anything KC did in the > 70's.) There is one Great Deceiver improv where a drum machine is used as a motoric rhythm producer -- but KC's demise in the 70's *predates* the disco boom, so it's to be expected that they wouldn't really reflect that. > Fripp did not emulate the guitar heroes of the 70's. > There was no attempt to incorporate the trendy technology of > the 70's. No sequencers, no synthesizers (except for that > VCS3 used in live shows by the Islands band and heard on > EARTHBOUND). Again, KC had largely missed out on the sequencer boom of the mid-late 70's, by committing suicide before it took off. And arguably the mellotron was a 'trendy' technology when KC championed it. Adding a violin to the mix was also a bit trendy (cf. Mahavishnu). Finally, Fripp *was* deeply into the technology of looping, though it did not manifest itself in 70's KC except as 'opening music', and he *was* into his fuzztones. KC was of its times, albeit occasionally ahead of them too. > And what of the 90's? Well, to begin with, the 90's are > almost over -- only a year and a half remain, not much time > for KC to find its new, "90's," sound/direction. (Perhaps > they should shoot for a Millennial redefinition instead) But > what is really needed is for the band to throw off the > shackles of thinking of the "old" KC approach as outdated > and confining. Redefinition means reexamining the band's > roots: its original goals and purposes. What is still > valid? What will lend itself to a fresh approach, while > maintaining continuity? Can't 'fractalization' into improvising subunits be seen as a return to the 'old' ethos, where improvisation was a key feature of their approach? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 14:34:45 -0700 From: "kyle clarke" Subject: Send a P2/Space Groove CD to George Lucas Listening to P2 Space Groove, it occurs to me that this is the perfect music for George Lucas if he needs to have another bar scene with an extraterrestrial band (in the next Star Wars trilogy of movies). Can you picture a bunch of aliens playing it too? As a bonus it would be edgy, too - something that might be appropriate this time around... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:51:30 -0700 (PDT) From: J Young Subject: William Rieflin info I don't have information on "Birth of a Giant" but Seattle area ETers should look for the good Mr. Rieflin as part of the group LAND. there's info about the band at http://www.wolfenet.com/~nunatak/LAND.html LAND has sort of a constantly rotating membership. The current lineup features my favorite local bassist, Fred Chalenor (of Zony Mash fame) and Wm. Rieflin. They played a show 2 weeks ago at the tractor that I missed but my friends thought extraordinary. the tentacle http://www.speakeasy.org/~tentacle/calendar.html keeps a calendar of the local jazz scene (as well as an email newsletter) that can keep you informed of upcoming LAND shows. Shamus machismo at u dot washington dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:06:57 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: Beyond The 500 Lots of things to cover here. First are expressions of gratitude regarding your kind messages on the 500th issue of Elephant Talk. It's always gratifying for the three of us to know that there are people out there who appreciate the effort put into making ET what it is. Clive Lathrope wrote... > Big spread and lots of pics of Fripp & Toyah at home in > Hello Mag. No.510 May 23rd Issue. I saw this too. Robert called Martin Smith (of Streetly Electronics) while I was down visiting him and broke the Terrible News. It's official folks; Fripp has sold out. Burn Everything. flaherty michael w wrote... > Reckless Records, (847) 328-8681, has a used copy of USA on vinyl. I > couldn't see the record (they're behind the counter), but the cover > was "well used". I've got *three* copies of 'USA' on vinyl that are superfluous to my needs. If anyone wants any of them for something in the region of a fiver apiece then drop me a line. Andy Acunzo wrote... > The reason I asked is that I recently borrowed DAYS OF FUTURE PASSED > from a friend. I too detected a similarity in the instrumentation, but any comparisons really stop there. Not only were Mike Pinder and the MB5 a little lighter and less gloomy than Crimso, they also liked the sound of Bad Teen Poetry on their albums. Also, remember that the Moodies refused to let an early Crimson support them because they were 'too strong'. cavalheiro at detec dot unijui dot tche dot br wrote... > I want to know ,about the EARTHBOUND album! Why these album > are dont make on CD format at time. It has never been re-released on CD and as far as it's known never will be either. I wonder what the Frippster's views on Boz-starved Crimsoids taping 'Earthbound' are? KB 305 wrote... > The post regarding a sample disk of Mellotron sounds makes my brain go > into vapor lock. Let me get this straight: Digital samples so that you > can perfectly reproduce the sounds of a thirty-year-old machine that > used analog tapes to poorly reproduce the sounds of other instruments. > Have I got a bead on it? Oh good - another Mellotron question. I can do these. The sound of the Mellotron isn't the sound of a sampler, really. The Mellotron sounds like a Mellotron and nothing else. Better yet, nothing else - so far - sounds like the Mellotron. If you objectively compare the sound of real strings with the compressed sound of the 'Tron, you'll see that the comparison isn't even worth describing. (Hackett's 'Genesis Revisited' features Mellotron strings and orchestral strings and they sound *nothing* like each other!) Better still, samplers always, always, always fail to capture what is great about the Mellotron, notably all the 'quirks and nuances' (read 'wobbles and stutters') that makes Tron-heads tell an Emulator from the real thing at twenty paces. Looping the central point of the samples makes it even worse; when you only have eight seconds or less per keystroke then you have to remember how you phrased a chord to let you sustain groups of notes naturally, which of course has a direct effect on the way the thing is played. Having been used to either pianos or synths it took me a while to get used to the fact that chords fell apart on you with the Mellotron if you weren't careful about it. Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 07:53:45 EDT From: JesseMacDC Subject: Vector Patrol .9 Interupted! I am writing in response to Manuel Fernandez's observation in ET #501 concerning track #9 on the "Vector Patrol" CD in "Space Grooves". When I first bought the CD (2 for the price of one!) I noticed that break as well. I figured (and still do) that it was intentional. The beginning of the break seems as much, at least. I suppose that for whatever reason they decided to do some extra nob twidling at the recording board, and this is the result. But intentional or not, It think that it is safe to say that every copy of "Vector Patrol" has this sudden burst dead air, so you're not alone, Manuel. While I'm on the subject : Space grooves has really started to grow on me, and I've been listening to it more often than not since I bought it. At first I was only partial to track one on the first CD (there was something warm and fusion-y about it, not to mention it being the most tonal of the pieces) - the other tracks felt pretty sterile (I always found myself thinking that it was the V-Drums' fault and hoping that Adrian would switch to some other patch - many of them seemed to me quite silly and "artificial" sounding [and the rythyms he was playing seemed a little stiff]. I'm the kind of person who dosen't want to know that I'm listening to electronic drums). But since then I have grown to enjoy the other tracks a little more, particularly #'s 1, 8, and 13 on vector patrol (Fripp's guitar sound - I thinks it's Fripp at least - on track one is to die for), and that impression of sterility has faded under the weight of many a pleasurable listen in my living room over a meal. (P2 as dinner music - funny idea eh? I can hear the champange glasses clinking now.) P.S. -Congrats on your 500th birthday! -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:16:38 EDT From: Camzone Subject: THRAK on Vinyl?? What does everyone think? I would imagine that the new craze of "heavy vinyl" (180g usually) would be right up Robert's alley, and he'd release at least some of the DGM catalogue onto it. What does everyone think? THRAK on Vinyl, or not? Camzone The Definitive King Crimson - A Guide To The Crimson King (c) Cameron Devlin 1997, 1998 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:20:19 EDT From: Camzone Subject: Re: Information >>I want to know ,about the EARTHBOUND album! Why these album >>are dont make on CD format at time. Because, in 1972, CD's didn't exist, and because the album is so terrible in quality, I suppose they didn't need to bother. According to most, DGM is in the process of releasing "Ladies Of The Road" which, I gather, is basically "Earthbound II (or even "Earthbound"). Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:24:34 EDT From: Camzone Subject: Re: Moody Blues influence on KC? With the Moody Blues being possibly my favorite band next to KC, I'd have to say that I had noticed this too. Do remember though, that Days Of Future Passed was really just a demonstration of the new "Deramic Sound System" of the time, but was then released. If memory serves correctly, Decca wanted a rock version of Dvorak's 3rd Symphony, but the Moodies used their songs instead. "In The Court Of The Crimson King" is still revolutionary not just because of the music but because I think it was the first time a record company forgot about the entire hit problems, and just let them work. Camzone The Definitive King Crimson http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4472/kcrimson/kcrimson.html (c) Cameron Devlin 1997, 1998 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:42:42 EDT From: Camzone Subject: Re: Trainspotting Giles, Giles & Fripp I think I have some of the answers to your (apparant) questions - >>I've been browsing thru your discographies & have noticed an >>anomaly that tends to recurr through most Fripp/KC lists >>encountered, regarding his first LP (Cheerful Insanity). It >>always appears as two (original?) serial #'s, 423 & 1022. 1022 is the original copy of Giles, Giles & Fripp (the full catalogue ref. is DML 1022 (mono) or SML 1022 (stereo)) and 423 is (as you state) SPA 423. >>I have a copy of SPA 423 - non gatefold colour cover with >>aqua blue/silver label (not the colour of late 60's Deram >>pressings?). Also the inner sleeve has the date 9/75 stamped >>on it. I think this is an early/mid 70's reissue. Late 60's DERAM pressings usually had a RED semi-circle at the top with "DERAM" written in it with white lettering, although (as with "On The Threshold Of A Dream" by the Moody Blues") it was sometimes a BLUE semi-circle with "DERAM" in white lettering. Silver was never a colour on the early labels. I would imagine that your copy is, as you say, a mid 70's re-issue. >>Though I have not seen copies of #1022 I >>presume this would have to be the original version, vaguely >>remembering (we're talking over 20 years ago now) someone >>mentioning they had the (original)LP & it was a gatefold. >>Don't hold me on that! The original copy of Giles, Giles & Fripp was not a gatefold. >>Anyway, I would suggest this LP was reissued in the early >>70's possibly at the height of KC's popularity? Hope this >>doesn't confuse the issue. If it does say 75, as you state, this does mean that KC would have split up and people would have been looking for some sort of Crimson like album. I suppose DERAM thought it would be a good way to get some "easy money" (pardon the pun) by marketing this odd little album (certainly not KC like at all) as a King Crimson follow up album. It's normally quite easy to spot the original copy - On the back, it will say at the bottom "Laminated with "Clarifoil" made by British Celanese Limited" and underneath the little motto "Giles, Giles and Fripp stand posied to grasp the pinnacle of success..etc." it will say " (c) 1968, The Decca Record Company Limited, London". Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:58:30 -0400 From: David Steimling Subject: toby, P2/BLUE, Stephen King, covers, demographics Hey all, (Dave bows to Toby) First everyone should check out www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/ to learn about the tob-man. Very impressive credentials, Toby. (Dave bows again) I see someone wrote on the trend that P2/BLUE shows are better then the albums. I disagree in the case of P2. The show was less organized. It was cool to see live, but not as flowing as the album. I, too, notice the noted breaks. It'd be nice if we could get some official word on whether or not they are intentional. In the case of BLUE, I think the artists are more audient oriented, which helped make the show better then the album. The album itself, does lend some insight to the process as Bruford & Co can be heard talking in restaurants, during the recording, etc, as well as Bruford's/Levin's liner notes on each song. So that one's a toss up, IMHO. As far as the P2 cover, I thought it may be cut in 2/3, signifying 2 guitars, 1drum, or perhaps a section of KC, the same color as the rest, but cut off from them. Who knows? Thats a perspective thing, except to the artist. As for the Stephen King connection, my understanding is as follows. King Crimson is a variation on the name Beezlebub, the Crimson King (per Sinfield). This is probably Stephen's reference (to Beezlebub) & doubtfully has anything to do with KC. This is semi-informed opinion, so dont take it as gospel. And for cover tunes, considering who is in the band...anything they play pre-Discipline could be considered cover-tunes, in a way. Same guitarist, often same drummer, but the rest of the line up has changed. I wonder if Fripp had a different name to his band, if that stuff would be considered covers. Kinda like P2 doing the Lounge version of VROOOM. Thats kinda like a cover tune. Eb, Just because you werent an informed KC fan in '69 doesnt mean you havent back purchased these records. (Why do people that hate the postings here stay on the list?) Why do people think LoG suck? Its dance stuff, yeah, but FAR from disco. (And the original letter said that KC didnt do any disco. LoG are as much KC as ELP.) I guess some people scratch thier head more than the surface of these postings. Enough bandwidth for me Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:41:52 -0400 From: wdckdarin at webtv dot net (Darin Giammusso) Subject: Epitaph To the person who wrote that Epitaph is only useful to the serious crim fan may i say that Epitaph is probably one of the most powerful and beautiful releases from KC. If it had been released in '69 it would have been as important as Miles Davis Bitches Brew. This is for everyone who likes more than 3 chord rock&roll. EVERYONE. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:55:44 EDT From: Goodcraker Subject: Park West-Chicago Hey all fellow ETer's. First off, congrats to all at ET on your 500th, and thanks for bringing us the finest publication on the web. You do a great service to all of us lonely CrimHeads. Just a quick question and I'll hang up and wait for my answer. Thanks to the scum at Ticketmaster.."Masters of the Ticket YOU need" ..I am in possesion of the Thursday, June 4th P2 show at the Park West in Chicago. Problem is I need Friday, June 5th tickets. When I purchased my 6/4 tickets, there had not been a definite second date, so I settled for Thursday. Lo and behold, a week later, Friday tickets become available. To make a long story even longer, I attempted (very politely, as ALL of us CrimHeads are!) to exchange Thursday tickets for Friday's. I was quickly rebuffed by the charming Ticketmaster clerk, who advised me ...and I am quoting.."YOU were told you couldn't exchange or request a refund for those tickets. I told you that last week!" Eeep. Sorry I asked. Anyway, I understand the policy and I remain a lighthearted, lovable individual. I kept my composure, and one of those...FLASHES OF LIGHT....went off in my skull. Post a note to all the good ETers of your dilemna. Maybe...just maybe someone will want to exchange Thursday 6/4 tickets for Friday 6/5 tickets. I would gladly deliver by snail mail or by hand or by strip-o-gram the tickets. Hell, I would buy tickets for both shows if I could, but time restraints won't allow it. So ...anyone game??? Two tickets by the by. And if there are no takers, maybe we'll see a couple of you before or after the show. Reply by private E-mail dot dot dot goodcraker at aol dot com... Thanks Toby, Dan and all the rest. You do some kick ass work. "If I wanted smoke blown up my ass I'd be at home with a pack of cigarettes and a short length of hose."----Detective Don Brodka ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:01:19 -0500 From: jessica Subject: Projekct 2 - An admirable failure Dear Crims, Viewing the debate over the validity of the music of Projeckt 2, I set out to actively listen to the recording and develop some ideas. After absorbing "Space Groove" over a period of weeks, several themes and opinions have crystalized for me. I. Projekct 2 is a success only in so far as the individual muscians have progressed. This is the essence of improvisation: self realization and improvement. Exception - Belew's progress as a drummer to my mind, adds little to the "greater Crim". II. Projekct 2 is a failure if one impetus for the recording was the testing of new equipment. The testing of "delivery systems" i.e. new toys, is not a valid reason for making an album. III. An album made up entirely of improvisation is inherently dangerous although not exactly groundbreaking. Projekct 2 is to be both commended for this bravery and criticized since the improvisations themselves are uneven at best. Again, this is the nature of improvisation: fly or fall. IV. This has been stated in other postings but I feel its worth repeating. Nothing that I have heard from Projekct 2 even remotely measures up to King Crimson's composed music. Insert: For those among us who would snivelingly remark, "Projekct 2 is not King Crimson", I would reply that while Projekct 2 is indeed not King Crimson, Projekct 2 is in fact Research and Development for King Crimson. And in this, Projekct 2 might be better served by spending less time jamming and more time actually composing for the "greater Crim". Ultimately, you have to give those involved credit for taking the leap but in this Stick player's opinion Projekct 2 may have "researched" but not much was "developed". Time will tell. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:15:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Mahmood Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Pablo Casals RF has refered to Pablo Casals a few times recently as a musician he admires; can anyone recomend some recordings? I found a nice biographical page on him (www.cello.org/casals/casals.htm)...this stood out for some reason: "He was a person with great personal warmth, and people liked him. In repose, or while performing on his cello, his face could look rather severe and forboding. But that was simply a reflection of his concentration. Casals was a vivacious conversationalist, and people took a liking to him very quickly." -ckm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:28:54 +1200 From: David MacLennan Subject: Fripp in.... Hello magazine??!! Spotted in ET501: From: "Clive Lathrope" Subject: NEWS: Hello Magazine Big spread and lots of pics of Fripp & Toyah at home in Hello Mag. No.510 May 23rd Issue. Is this the end of the world as we know it? :-) Also: From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: crimso in the deep south Just thought I'd add to the comments from others on the other side of the Tasman that a visit down under by King Crimson in any or all of its combinations and permutations would be excellent, and failing that the live albums are the best alternative. Hell, a visit to Melbourne or Sydney would be enough to cross the ditch' for! Agreed, David, and other Kiwi ETers? Well, I did it for Peter Hammill last year, so I'd definitely do it for KC or a PROJEkCT! Such a visit is LONG overdue, and it's good to see a number of NZers and Australians starting to push for this. ET501 must mark something of a record for the number of posts in a single issue from this part of the world. Oh, and to whoever it was who asked "what cover would it be great to hear KC perform", I am still convinced that a version of Yes's "Heart of the Sunrise" would be pretty damn good. James Nooooo!!!! Not in a million! I'd sooner they have a crack at one of Fripp's favourite Bartok quartets. TTFN, David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:55:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Basile Subject: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ProjecKt 2 article? Hello, Enjoyed, very much ,an article that appeared in the PITTSBURGH POST-GAZZETTE on Project 2, this past Sunday May 24th. It was titled; His latest projeKect. Subtitled; Determined not to repeat himself, leader of King Crimson creates a ensemble. By ;J Mikel Ellcessor. Some Quotes; "Expectations are a heavy cross to bear. Robert Fripp, leader of KING CRIMSON, has a mighty set of expectations. The main rule with KING CRIMSON is simple; Don't repeat yourself. Maybe do a ProjeKct instead."-Ellessor "Space Groove, the double-disc release from Crimson " fractal"- ProjeKct Two. The numbing financial considerations of assembling the musicians aside, Fripp identifies the expectations of both the audience and the group about what " the legendary and august Crimson is, or might be" as one of the forces that brought the ProjeKcts to life." -Ellcessor " Robert, Adrian and I had been meeting at Adrian's house (in Nashville) writing some new, three- guitar material, working on some new CRIMSON material. We had been meeting there every six to eight weeks for a couple of days, and then all of a sudden we started talking about what would happen if we played as a trio, thinking it would be three-guitar stuff. So, the next time we got together, we played for about an hour or two and Robert said, "OK, we've done that, what are those things over there?"(He was referring to the Roland Drum kit.) Well, Adrian had just gotten the drums the day before, and he said, "I'll show you." So he jumped up, and started playing along. Fortunately, Adrian's engineer was recording all of our rehearsals and just rolled the DAT tape, and the very first thing we played was " Space Groove I " the third track on the first CD."-Trey Gunn "SPACE GROOVE is a fascinating collection of instrumental material. The two CDs are loaded with alternately lush and dark, ominous textures from Fripp and Gunn heavily processed guitars. A major twist in the lineup, however, is Belew's work on the V Drums. An innovative guitarist, Belew takes the electronic kit through a thrilling workout and joins the guitarists on a sinuous ride through a night sky of improvised electronic orchestrations. -Ellcessor "During the live show we can't really re-create anything that's on this record. Some moods don't really carry with us. The live show is a lot heavier and darker than the album."- Gunn "-this is where the music's coming from right now and it feels good. If it doesn't lead back to Crimson, then I really don't care."-Gunn " I think if we had to do a two-month tour with this band, not only would we burn out, because the music is really demanding, but the music would flatten out. But we're taking these breaks, it's kind of like we start out fresh again. That keeps it from being stale, but we're not doing it for the sake of it being improvised. If it all became fixed, and it was good, we'd still do it."-Trey Gunn Was this in any other papers? It was a very pleasant surprise because the PITTSBURGH POST- GAZETTE didn't even mention Fripp during a review of the 3-G's last summer. Happy belated orbit day to the Crimson members, ET, staff, and contributors! (500 issues,WOW, think I read every one.) Warmly, Basile By The Three Rivers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:27:53 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: bye well, the digest has reached no.500, and I'm off for a couple of week's break in the windy city (no, not Chicago - Wellington). And I've decided that the two are probably as good a time as any to bid adieu to the list. I still enjoy KC's music, in many, any, and all of its incarnations, and I have enjoyed the wonderful list (thanks for the excellent work, Toby, Dan, Mike & co) and made a lot of good friends on here (names like David McLennan come to mind, but there are many more of you as well). The fact is that since starting study for my PhD I have had less and less time to read my email, and a list or two have to go. However, this is simply an adieu, not a goodbye - you can still reach me at , and I'd be delighted if some of you did. I'll review the situation in a few months. Hopefully I'll be back sometime when I've got a bit more time. Have fun, and don't wreck the place while I'm gone! James James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:37:00 -0400 From: "Gull, H. (Hector)" Subject: Alchemy. I hope this will help Martin and Michael on the Alchemy: An Index of Possibilities issue. First release on cassette limited numbered edition in December 1985 cat# MC SYL 1, and LP SYL 2 same date. The Weatherbox: A 5CD Boxset, November 1989 cat#CD DSCD 1-2 Japanese CD May 1991,cat# CD VJCP-23079 Track listing: Words with the Shaman pt-1 Ancient Evening (5:14) pt-2 Incantation (3:28) pt-3 Awakening (Song from the Tree Tops) (5:14) Preparations for a Journey (3:37) Steel Cathedrals (18:50) Weatherbox version: Words with the Shaman pt-1 Ancient Evening pt-2 Incantation pt-3 Awakening (Songs from the Tree Tops) The Stigma of Childhood (Kin) (8:24) A Brief Conversation Ending in Divorce (3:26) Steel Cathedrals On a different note, those of you who like only the 73/74 Crimson,or 69/71 or 80's , why torturing yourselves with what the "New" Crimson is doing, remember is the "NEW" not the "OLD", let the old King R.I.P. listen to the Music they left printed on CD,LP and Tapes, and remember those times as the best Crimson in your opinion. The ETers who enjoy Crimson from '69 the 90's and beyond, We appreciate what each incarnation had to offer, and without Fripp searching for something new,different and inspirational, I don't think a King Crimson would have survive the passing of time, or even exist after 1969. I'm glad they're here, as Crimson or Projekcs, and that they let us in the rehearsal in the form of a CD, and for those like me living in the west for just few years, and coming from an island in the Caribbean where no Rock Band from the west ever set food, all live catalog that DGM releases is welcome to my collection and to my ears, as a recorded music document of times I didn't have the fortune to be a part of. All the Best. Hector. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 98 13:18:37 PST From: Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au Subject: Absent Lovers etc. G'day All I wait and I wait and I wait for Absent Lovers. I'm glad this has finally come out. those who have heard it, how's the sound quality. My only disapointment is that my two favorite tracks, 'Neal and Jack and Me' and 'Neaurotica' are not on this. If any Eters have a good copy of these tunes done live that they could send to me (CD or MP3) it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all who replied on my request for descriptions on BLUE, BLS and LTE. I thought recently that Eters might also like to check out Terry Bozzio's Lonely Bears. They're sort of Dark Prgressive Jazz Fusion. Very impressive stuff. I've almost finished my MIDI version of 'Neal and Jack and Me' so stay tuned. Now, C'mon KC tour Australia. I've seen a lot of great but reletively unknown artists ( Holdsworth, Stern, Willis) here over the last couple of years so I'm sure with a worldwide following KC would be able to do it. Robert, if your reading this maybe you could give me some idea of your requirements and otherwise to do an Australian tour and I might be able to get a promoter interested. Regards to all Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:37:54 +0200 From: "Scheepers, Hans" Subject: Availability Hello ETers, For quite some time I try to get hold of two CD collaboration albums of Robert Fripp and David Sylvian, namely: Damage and Gods Monkey. Unfortunately it is not available in the Netherlands. Can anyone advice here? Thanks in advance. Hans. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:30:19 EDT From: HACKENBOOK Subject: Fripp and audience Dear All First, thanks for an excellent service, best on the web. Everyone's had enough to say on the "flash" front, but it did occasion a wider thought. I've only been lucky enough to see Fripp on a handful of occasions in various guises so I'm no expert, but it's always seemed to me that intimidating the audience is almost part of his performance. At the Q&A session that followed a concert by the Crafty Guitarists some years back, most of the audience seemed too nervous of his reaction to ask anything. Is this a self-perpetuating situation - as each year goes by Fripp becomes more and more the stern schoolmaster because that's what we expect of him while even the master of reinvention is caught up in that persona? Just a thought. Hugo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:46:31 EDT From: MarkJX Subject: Under Heavy Manners / God Save the Queen Comments? CD/LP? Hi All! I have an opportunity to pick up this LP (at a secret location....) in VG condition, but know little about it other than the 1 review on the ET web site. I appreciate that very few of us here have opinions, let alone vehement opinions ;-) , but I would welcome those that do to send their impressions of this album (by PRIVATE email please) to markjx at aol dot com. Also, has this ever been released on CD? If so, are there any major differences between the two pressings? Thrak On! Mark J. PS: Congrats ET/Toby/Dan et al on reaching Issue D! Awaiting Issue M! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:03:29 +-900 From: Jeff Liss Subject: Great Deceiver rerelease Folks I'm sure the TGD box can be found here and there, but since a couple of people have mentioned its being discontinued, the Absent Lovers booklet contains this info: ...originally released through Virgin. This is currently out of print (Feb. 98) and has now reverted to DGM. We are planning to release a second edition of this in 1999. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:52:53 -0500 From: Eric Kirchner Subject: DGM Catalogs on CDs Hello All: I love to listen to stuff like GOP at work through my PC, but I get increasingly irritated by DGM's new practice of including a catalog that automatically launches when the CD is inserted. Is there any way to disarm this feature on the CD? It takes over a minute to boot up, and shutting off the program is a pain. As a note to Fripp and co., I would much rather access the DGM website catalog when I want DGM release info. The King Crimson demographic seems to include a large number of PC/Internet literate fans, so including the auto-launch catalog on the CD is an annoying duplication. GIMME MUSIC NOT MARKETING! By the way, GOP is top notch. Highly recommended (as long as you play it on a regular CD player). Regards, Eric ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #502 ********************************