From toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Thu Jun 18 09:16:22 1992 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 91 12:25:19 BST From: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Discipline #5 discipline, Number 5 Sunday, 29 September 1991 Today's Topics: Fripp book, ramblings Re: The New King Crimson, mythe or realitie? Lull Killer-Bruford Re: the list! Re: the list! Re: the list! Re: Tony Levin (again) Tony Levin trade tapes, anyone? Abbreviated King Crimson [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1991 14:50:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Patrick Arnold Subject: Fripp book, ramblings Howdy folks, Re: discographies Thanks Mike for the Crimso discography, and to those echoed discographies of Fripp. I think there are a few omissions and mistakes in them, but I'm not sure. For example, Discipline had at least two singles, Elephant Talk and Matte Kudasai, but as far as I can tell, they were "Single edits" and not remixed or alternate takes of any kind, and had no b-sides (at least on the copies I've seen and didn't buy). Similarly, Heartbeat was released as a single. Keith Tippett's name has two t's at the end, David Cross definitely was still in the group on Starless and Bible Black. Fripp has produced and "maybe" contributed to several Keith Tippett recordings. It would be a crime not to mention Fripp's contribution to David Sylvian's Gone to Earth (1986) on a Fripp discography, which is very Frippian in some places (including J.G. Bennett's voice on the title track), and even has Mel Collins on Sax. I could go on, but I guess I'm starting to get anal-retentive about accuracy at this point, so I'll stop. Re: the book "From King Crimson to Guitar Craft: Robert Fripp" by Eric Tamm My personal view of this book is that it is somewhat impassioned and researched, but inaccurate and rambling. He is not a real Fripp follower, nor is he a good researcher (I could have handled one or the other). I must admit that the chapter on his one Guitar Craft experience is very well written and very good, and I liked the chapters that were deliberately not intending to be insightful on Fripp's philosophical Gurdjieff/Bennett influences-- they were insightful by their mere inclusion in the book. But his descriptions of the evolution of King Crimson, which make up the bulk of the book, are horrendous. I can't trust the accuracy of some of his stories. There were so many factual errors that I found myself often cringing. Gaffes that struck me as wildly wrong if you've heard or read at least a couple of Fripp interviews (or if you have half a brain to analyze it) include Fripp's writing the lyrics to Great Deceiver (KC's S&BB) and Daryl Hall's lyrics being removed from You Burn Me Up I'm a Cigarette (Fripp's Exposure). Richard Palmer-James wrote the lyrics for all "KC-III-period" tunes, except for One More Red Nightmare which is credited only to Fripp and Wetton (and I've only seen a lyric sheet for this in Japanese, and BTW, the lyrics on that sheet aren't very accurate). One can reason that if John Wetton depended on Richard Palmer-James for lyrics (after all, Richard was Wetton's childhood friend, and Fripp called him John's lyricist), that Fripp must have written the lyrics to 'Nightmare and Richard must have written Great Deceiver. I figure Tamm heard in an interview that Fripp liked or suggested the lyric fragment: "Cigarettes, Ice Cream, Figurines of the Virgin Mary" and decided that Fripp wrote the whole lyrics and further decided to devote a paragraph or two analyzing Fripp's Catholic whatevers-- maybe Fripp contributed that *fragment*, but he certainly lacks the poetic skill of Richard and only Richard was credited for Great Deciever lyrics (where the lyrics are re-printed), so I think Eric Tamm might have been out to lunch on this one. As for You Burn Me Up I'm a Cigarette, when Fripp talks about his collaborations with Daryl Hall, he specifically mentions this song. Fripp goes on and on in interviews about how lovely Daryl Hall's voice was on this particular song, and about how Hall just belted it out in one take. These interviews are totally inconsistent with Eric Tamm's claims about how Daryl Hall's manager had Fripp take Hall's voice from a couple of tunes including 'Cigarette. I can certainly believe that Fripp called in Peter Hammill to redo some voice parts for legal reasons for the Exposure tunes that happen to be credited to Daryl Hall, but not 'Cigarette. On my Exposure, it's clearly Hall's voice. Other examples like this one lead me to believe that Eric Tamm did not write an accurate book. The reader is better off compiling a couple of Fripp interviews from Guitar Player and reading the "Young Person's Guide to King Crimson" (LP) booklet. ELP Reply Phong Ho asks what ELP might be good to start with: definitive ELP that I like at least are "Brain Salad Surgery" and "Pictures at an Exhibition". To me, they are most like the early Crimson "sound like Classical music with Rock idioms" group. Re: John Relph's report on Definitive Editions of the last 3 Crimsons Besides Matte Kudasai and Sleepless, are the "Definitive" remastered Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair (Caroline, not Warner Bros) worth the effort? Since my article today stresses accuracy, I must mention that both of these "remixed" songs are in fact the originals. Fripp simply left out his dubbed solo on Matte Kudasai, and it was Bob Clearmountain's remixing that created the version of Sleepless we all know and love. The original unmixed version is quite exactly the one on the Compact King Crimson, and as you report, now replaces the remix on Three of a Perfect Pair. I personally prefer Bob Clearmountain's version, I think he did a fantastic job on it. I actually remember a time back in 1984 when this was played on rock radio stations, during normal hours! --- As for the Essential King Crimson boxed set: Egads, I nearly creamed in my pants when I heard that this thing is real. I can't wait for October now. "Wow, Bob, Wow." - Brian [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: larry at csccat dot cs dot com (Larry Spence) Subject: Re: The New King Crimson, mythe or realitie? Summary: Why ask who? Drink Bud Dry! Date: 19 Sep 91 01:32:33 GMT In article <1991Sep18 dot 191639 dot 4977 at rti dot rti dot org> rga at rti dot rti dot org (Randy Alley) writes: >I'm hoping that for this incarnation that Fripp brings David Sylvain >into the fold. ... [deleted] ... Imagine Sylvian crooning, "elephaaaaant talk"... "one morrre red niiiightmare" %) >Another good candidate would be Tony Gaballe, Crafty Guitarist and >contributer (guitar/songwriter) to Toyah's Ophelia's shadow. He is >excellent, if a bit like the Master stylistically. "A bit"?!? One Fripp per Crimso is plenty, I think. Fripp should, IMHO, have someone in the lineup who will argue with him a bit, add a smiley to the proceedings perhaps. >So, How about : Fripp, Sylvain, Tippett, Haskell, Gaballe, Beavis (of >SAOW) !!!! Are they going to abandon all the Belew-era tunes in live performance? Maybe Tippett will do Belew's parts on piano, right? Can he play piano with one hand and twist the knob on a delay box with the other? %) Any lineup is fine by me as long as Toyah stays out of it. 1/2 %) Last rumor I heard on the lineup was: - El Duce (of the Mentors) on vocals _and_ drums - Jack Bruce on bass - one of the babes from the Shaggs on 2nd guitar - Sylvian on backup vocals This is from a very reliable source, so there's no point in speculation. After reading the Fripp interview where he claimed that something big was going to happen in music this year, I'm assuming that he's going to try to do it with the new Crimso. I fear that he's got Kate Bush Syndrome, where it's been so long since anything has come out (from Crimso, at least), that he can't possibly meet the expectations. We'll see... -- Larry Spence larry at csccat dot cs dot com ...{uunet,texsun,cs.utexas.edu,decwrl}!csccat!larry [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 23 Sep 91 11:12:32 -0500 From: rjf at maxwell dot physics dot purdue dot edu (Robert J. Friedman III) Subject: Lull Killer-Bruford Good day, eh? In order to break up the lull I'll post something related to Crimson, but not to Fripp. I recently saw "The Complete National Health" and many Gong recordings as new releases on CD. I was wondering about the character of each group and any opinions on who's "better." Since, Bruford played in each of these bands (which recordings is he on?) I would like to get some input from the list membership. I also recently got a hold of "Gone to Earth" by David Sylvian. This recording marks the first time Fripp recorded with his new standard (Guitar Craft) tuning. Fripp really fits well on this album-I recommend it. Also for anyone interested, the new Earthworks album should be out this month. Is that enough? Later. -Bob Friedman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Let music never become just another ! "Life is too important to way of making money." -Keith Tippet ! be taken seriously" -Oscar Wilde Bob Friedman is at rjf at maxwell dot physics dot purdue dot edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] From: rjp1%ihlpz at att dot att dot com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 91 20:07 CDT Subject: Re: the list! > We now have more than 50 members of the Discipline list -- but the old > mailing list syndrome is here too! No-one's posting anything! Okay. Let's compile a list of Crimson bootlegs then. Maybe we could make a "best of" tape for mailing-list-members-only... On second thought, that could really get out of hand! :^) Anyone got Show Of Hands? Here's something of interest. (well maybe..) I've got Show Of Hands. It is similar to Live II, the cd made and distributed by Guitar Craft Services (CGCD 002). It is also similar to a tape I got from my sister, a bootlegged tape of the same tour. All three have a slightly different track listing and (imho) not all of the best versions are found on Show Of Hands. -- Bob Pietkivitch | "Where blizzards, blast the spirit of man, att!ihlpz!rjp1 | the frailest of beasts." -- Genesis, Pacidy [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1991 01:12:11 EDT From: Phong Co Subject: Re: the list! Toby Howard writes: > Come on -- what about all that stuff in rec.music.misc about the new > line-up? Did anyone catch that? I'd like to know about this! Some of us don't get news groups. Phong. -- ========================================================================= Phong T. Co | chryses at xurilka dot UUCP | Battleships confide in me and dada Indugu Inc. | tell me where you are Montreal, CANADA | -- Yes [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Mon, 23 Sep 91 10:11:20 PDT From: Duane dot Day at EBay dot Sun dot com (Duane Day) Subject: Re: the list! >Come on -- what about all that stuff in rec.music.misc about the new >line-up? Did anyone catch that? I certainly didn't - could I persuade you to post relevant details to your list for the benefit of those of us who can't keep up with the volume of rec.music.misc in the usually-vain hope that there will be something there about an artist we actually enjoy? thanks, Duane [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1991 14:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Patrick Arnold Subject: Re: Tony Levin (again) Howdy, (Toby, this is also for submission to "Discipline") On 23-Sep-91 in Tony Levin (again) user Michael Rawdon@cabrales. writes to rec.music.misc: >As bassist Tony Levin used to be in King Crimson ('80s incarnation), >do you think it was Bill Bruford who recruited him for ABWH? > >...did Levin perform on the recent Yes _Union_ tour... Bill Bruford and Tony Levin played together with Al DiMeola on a track from Al's Scenario recording, and played together with Mark Isham on David Torn's "Cloud About Mercury". I've been told David Torn originally wanted Mick Karn, who later played Tony's bass parts when Torn toured after this release, with Bill and another trumpet player whose name I forget (BTW that was some amazing live music). Mick later collaborated with David in other projects, which leads me to belive the first story to be true. This all leads me to believe that Bill recruited Tony for ABWH, although Tony also worked with Jon Anderson on some American Indian Tribute recording with Jim Morrison poetry intermixed about 3 or so years back. Levin's playing on Yes Union (as well as the previous ABWH) stands out so much that he must have had an equal role in the overall shape of ABWH and is considered a member amongst the other members. "Evensong" is clearly a Tony-influenced short improvised piece with Bill's part probably improvised after Tony came up with the basic shape of the piece (IMHO). For it to be included on Yes "Union" and co-published under Editions E.G. and E.G. Records is quite remarkable (where the name of the song came from is also fascinating). But remember that Levin is primarily an in-demand studio session bassist, so much so that Fripp didn't consider him initially for "Discipline" because he thought Tony wouldn't have the time to tour with them. Fripp and Bill threw auditions instead, whereupon the second day Tony tried out, satisfied Bill's expectations and committed to touring with the band (...maybe...I'm just paraphrasing what I consider an unreliable account >from Eric Tamm's book on Fripp). I don't think Tony toured with Yes "Union". He is listed as a band member with Andy Summers' latest Jazz recording "World Gone Strange" which was recorded right around the time Yes started touring. Drummers, guitarists and keyboardists were indeed all doubled-up in the Yes tour, as I've been told, and in fact the drummers gave a duet rather than the obligatory drum solo. And the dang tour has been going on for a while now. Tony didn't tour with Pink Floyd even though he had band-member credit on "Momentary Lapse of Reason" in case that lends any parallels. - Brian [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Wed, 25 Sep 91 14:40:28 -0500 From: "Robert J. Friedman III" Subject: Tony Levin Good day, eh? Just in case anybody else out there is a big Tony Levin fan, he plays on all tracks of Andy Summers' new album "World Gone Strange." Quite a good jazzy workout for the Bald Bard of Bass. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Let music never become just another ! "Life is too important to way of making money." -Keith Tippet ! be taken seriously" -Oscar Wilde Bob Friedman is at rjf at maxwell dot physics dot purdue dot edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 27 Sep 91 09:25:23 -0400 From: "Ihor W. Slabicky" Subject: trade tapes, anyone? Anyone interested in trading tapes of live King Crimson? or dubs of boots for tapes? I have about 50 tapes, mostly from the 71 to 74 or so Crimso's. If you're interested, let's do it... Ihor [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Date: Fri, 27 Sep 91 14:51:27 PDT From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Abbreviated King Crimson According to the latest issue of _ICE_, the International CD Exchange newslatter, "In mid-October, Caroline [Records USA] will release _The Abbreviated King Crimson_, a seven-track CD including a 1:20 medley of their best-known songs". Oh boy. -- John [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] To join this group or have your thoughts in the next issue, please send electronic mail to Toby Howard at the following address: toby at uk dot ac dot man dot cs The views expressed in discipline are those of the individual authors only.