Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #496 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 496 Wednesday, 13 May 1998 Today's Topics: Re: Open Letter To Robert Fripp gauchos Saturation point? Torn/Tamm/LCG morons who can't use cameras Greetings from Australia + Live Lizards KC Reference on B. Dickinson's Next Album Time Enfolds Time Implodes Karn re: Open Letter to Fripp Bad idea of the day Not a Fan Thread Matt the Flash Monster, Gates, Tokyo Tapes, P2 Flashophobia Fripp on MTV..... a hallucination? Absent Lovers Playback Response to Photo Takin' Matt Re: ET #495: Fripp Flash, and other p2 and this list's general disdain eartbound-help needed The Demeanor Debate Continues Free-Form vs. Structured Crimson P2 - no feeling? GIG REVIEW: The show in Albany GIG REVIEW: PROJEKT 2 !!! GIG REVIEW: Projekct Two at Irving Plaza, 5/6/98 GIG REVIEW: Valentine's---Albany, NY----5.8.98 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:44:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Don Becker Subject: Re: Open Letter To Robert Fripp First time caller, long time listener. verglas wrote: >I'd like to bring up an incident that took place some time >ago now but has only just inspired me to write about it. At >the time I felt like my experience was quite unique but >after hearing stories from other fans, it seems as though >this is a common occurrence. [...] >I will admit, I had noticed a sign that read "Please do not >photograph the installation" on the wall but the >opportunity was far too great to pass up. [...] >I'm not sure whether my particular incident has been talked >about already here at Elephant Talk but I invite the >petulant one (or Mr. Fripp) to respond in some way and >perhaps apologise for the what he did to me. I realised my >mistake and apologise for taking the photo, now it's your >turn...Bob! Perhaps the most likely question to ask here is this: If you park under a "No Parking" sign and get ticketed, do you actually go to traffic court and demand an apology from the policeman who ticketed you? Fripp may be petulant, arrogant, and downright snobbish, but that doesn't excuse you from ignoring a simple request because "the opportunity was far too great to pass up." In that respect, if you so desperately wanted a picture of Fripp performing, you should at least know how to properly disable the flash on your camera. If the urge is that great and you simply must photograph any performer who requests no flash photos (Fripp is not the only one), use high speed film and cover your flash with black masking tape if you don't trust your ability to disable it. --Don -- Don Becker becker at panther dot adelphi dot edu Unix System Administrator, Adelphi University http://www.adelphi.edu/don "Deep down inside we're all one and the same" --Marillion, "The Last Straw" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:16:56 +0200 From: "Gunnar Schillings" Subject: gauchos Dear Et's, how to get hold of Los Gauchos on the web? Nice work done, running ahead as always. Gun Schill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:25:23 +1200 From: David MacLennan Subject: Saturation point? In a recent ET, Gerard Coughlan opines: "I think we have reached saturation point................." Well Gerard, no one is asking you to buy them! If DGM think they can afford to release all this stuff and make some money off it for the artists, then that is THEIR decision, not yours or mine. We make our decisions with our wallets. If you choose not to buy this stuff, fine, but the rest of us want to be able to make the choice for ourselves. Me, I'll buy 'em all quite happily. I thoroughly enjoyed "Epitaph" and "Night Watch" and eagerly await further archive live releases. David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:06:34 -0800 From: rtc at sirius dot com (Robert Cambra) Subject: Torn/Tamm/LCG Hello ETers, 1) I'm sitting here reading all these reviews on ET of the B.L.U.E. shows and listening to to the Alesini and Andreoni album "Marco Polo" which features, among others, David Sylvian, Roger Eno, Harold Budd and--David Torn. He is simultaneously on my screen and coming out of my speakers. Who is this guy? Private replies, please. 2) Another coincidence: Yesterday, before finishing the final bit of Eric Tamm's book on Robert Fripp, I took a break and walked down to Virgin Records. Checking out the music section in the bookshop, I know it will interest many Eters to know, I found that this book in back in print. It has a new cover but unfortunately hasn't been updated or revised to include what's new with Fripp and KC since 1990. Unlike Tamm's book on Eno, which, written as a dissertation is rather dry, his book on Fripp is very lively as well as informative. 3) Most of you who care probably already know this, but for those dim folks like me who don't, I also just found out yesterday that The League of Crafty Guitarists' "Show of Hands" and "Intergalactic Boogie Express" are TWO DIFFERENT ALBUMS! If you didn't see them on the rack at the same time, since the covers are almost identical, you could easily assume they are the same album. But no . . . Robert Cambra San Francisco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:27:32 +1000 From: "STUDER, Andrew" Subject: morons who can't use cameras I must say I'm really astonished at the to-ing and fro-ing over the Robert Fripp vs cameras issue. The way I understand it, Fripp issues quite straightforward requests ("please no flash photography"), people ignore these requests, Fripp stops playing. The thing I can't understand is why people (particularly those who take the shots) get so high minded about this. It's like kindergarten children who are told their favourite toy will be removed if they don't behave, and then get offended and upset when it does. I couldn't believe the post in the previous E.T. from Idiot of Adelaide who, having been completely and utterly in the wrong, then demands an apology from Fripp. For God's sake, grow up. You did the wrong thing, you apologised, great. What was Fripp's wrongdoing? To leave the stage as the result of an action against his wishes? If you have such a blatant disregard for Fripp's wishes, why should he have any regard for yours? Finally, will all you morons with $50 cameras leave them at home. If you have the kind of camera where you can't turn the flash off, leave it at home: your pictures will probably be crap anyway. Buy some fast film and use a semi-decent camera. Otherwise, not only are you riuning the artist's time but you're ruining your own: why waste the time you should be spending listening to the music fretting about a second rate photo? Who cares? Andrew Andrew Studer Bomb Disposal Experts' Wives: ajs at ansto dot gov dot au Keep hubby on his toes by Neutron Scattering putting plasticene and an old ANSTO, Menai 2234 alarm clock in his lunchbox. - Viz handy hint ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:30:08 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: S dot Platt at mailbox dot uq dot edu dot au (Stephen Platt) Subject: Greetings from Australia + Hello from Australia (I suppose you have lots of fans from here?) My brother & I have been big fans of KC et al since 1974 Have only just accessed your site - very interesting A couple of questions if I may 1. Has Tippets/Centipede LP SEPTOBER ENERGY ever been rereleased (esp CD)? Have any of the RCA/Neon LP's been issued on CD (Chris McGregor's Brotherhood of Breath etc)? 2. Do your discographies cover releases other than US/UK/Japan? Regarding Australia, all of the LP's were released here locally (can give more details if required). More interestingly, 7" singles were also released eg. Cat Food / Groon (Philips BF-477, non ps, no date but likely 1970-71 by label colour/design); Heartbeat / Excerpt from "Requiem"(Polydor, 2002 151, non ps,1982); I think In the Court I&II was released here also but I don't have details. Maybe you have all of this info already? Cheers Stephen Platt STEPHEN "ROMUALDO" PLATT S dot Platt at mailbox dot uq dot edu dot au Snail Mail: 15 Gosling St, HOLLAND PARK,4121, Brisbane, Australia Telephone: 011 61 7 3394 4838 Fax 011 61 7 3394 4838 ------------------------------ Date: 11 May 98 12:35:41 +1000 From: "Paul PLATT" Subject: Live Lizards Hi ET'ers Just a question someone may be able to answer for me. Did King Crimson ever play any songs from the Lizard Album live (i.e. outside of the recording studio) e.g. Cirkus or Indoor Games? If so, were they ever recorded? Another (dumb?) question, does sheet music exist for any of KC songs? Especially their early albums? (1969-73) Thanx in advance... Regards Paul Platt pplatt at au dot oracle dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:39:02 +0400 From: Erik DePoy Subject: KC Reference on B. Dickinson's Next Album Here's an interesting little tidbit. One of the songs on Bruce Dickinson's (former singer for Iron Maiden) new album "Chemical Wedding" is tentatively entitled "The King Crimson". The album should be out around September of this year. Holy Direct References Batman!! Erik DePoy Lyubertsy, Russia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:00:22 PDT From: "Michael Irish" Subject: Time Enfolds Time Implodes The folling is part of a response I wrote to a friend on Prodigy's Classical Music BB, regarding the Compact Crimson disc he'd been listening to: Adrian's playing blows me away; he gets his fender to sound like elephants, electric cats, bells, wild birds in forest crying. "Discipline" turned some of my friends on to King Crimson who disliked prior Crimso recordings. For me the only Crimson album I'm not crazy about is "Islands," and even there, "A Sailor's Tale" and "Ladies of the Road" make it worth owning and playing mostly all the time. "Matte Kudasai" is such a beautiful soft piece; Adrian uses a slide here. The same image always fills my mind when listening to "Matte Kudasai": A translucent blue sky hinted with grey, reflecting light from the sunset; no buildings, no industrial noise, just calm as birds settle, the night looming in from the east, stars gathered about like a final perfect ineffable home. Mike I www.oeonline.com/~eirish ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 06:51:23 -0400 From: btomko at glasscity dot net Subject: Karn >called " The Mick Karn Collector's Edition" featuring: >Natacha ATLAS at least on a beautiful track called "Feta >Funk", Richard Barbieri, Steve Jansen, David TORN, Terry >BOZZIO, Joachim KuHN the jazz pianist, David LIEBMAN the >jazz saxophonist and so on ... >I also bought the 1992 release called "Bestial Cluster" Karn began his career with David Sylvian, Steve Jansen, et al in the band Japan. He's one of the most innovative bassists I've ever heard. He's worked with people like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Gary numan, Kate Bush, Midge Ure, Peter Murphy, David Torn, Terry Bozzio, etc. Mark Tomko The Mick Karn Web Project http://www.glasscity.net/users/btomko/karn/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:06:04 -500 From: "KOReilly" Subject: re: Open Letter to Fripp This is my first post to ET, and I think it is the best run newsletter on the web. I also realize that I am butting in between a ETer and Mr. Fripp, but after reading the Open Letter to Fripp and reading other various stories about Fripp's behaviour, I felt the need to post a response. As musician (bass player), I must support Fripp's position. Having a photo taken, being shouted at, having something thrown at you, these are distracting things. As a musician, it takes a lot of energy and commitment to create a mood through music, and I find that after distractions like those previously mentioned, I become irate and need to leave to calm down. The mood that I worked hard to create has been broken, and it is nearly impossible to get back. I also look at it like this: if you're driving at night, and someone highbeams you and you suddenly can't see, the normal reaction is to become upset. After all, an accident could occur. Why should a musician react any differently to photography? The second thing that strikes me when reading these incidents is the disrespect these people have towards the making of music. To relate a personal note, I was playing at an Open Mike with a friend of mine, when a woman came up to ask if she could sing later in the evening. Since we were playing Neil Young's "War of Man" - it required me to play a droning D note - I was able to carry a snippet of a conversation. For thirty seconds, this woman asked questions while I tried to get her to come back after the song was played. She failed to listen. My friend then stopped the song and verbally tore her to shreds. Was he wrong? Fripp's point about time and place hits home when I reflect upon those incidents. Two things strike me about Mr. Goodluck's Open Letter to Fripp. One is the issue of responsibility, and the other is respect. The issue of responsibility is this: clearly, Mr. Goodluck saw signs that said no photography. Whatever his justifications, he chose to ignore those signs. Mr. Goodluck was clearly not expecting Fripp to react, and was surprised when Fripp did. He was humiliated by Fripp's response. And Fripp should apologize because.....? Again, the issue is quite clear. There was a sign saying a particular behaviour was not allowed. Mr. Goodluck engaged in that behaviour. Fripp was distracted. The mood was broken. Drastic consequences and all that rot. Mr. Goodluck received abuse from Fripp and the audience, so he left. I fail to see why Fripp should apologize to Mr. Goodluck or anyone else for that matter. The issue of respect now comes up. Mr. Goodluck talks of the idea of Fripp taking this behaviour because Fripp has put himself in the public eye. That, to me, is garbage. Fripp is a performer, and this is how he makes his living. As a performer, he has the right to dictate behaviour at his shows. Fugazi does the same thing. They verbally abuse the audience and stop their shows if they feel the audience is treating them like crap. The reason why they dictate behaviour is to help create a mood of their choice which aids their performance. After all, that is the reason why fans supposedly show up. Just because money is paid does not mean that a performer needs to take an audiences wishes into account. When I put on solo concerts, I have friends who harangue me about the choice of songs, order of them, etc. "People may not get that song, people may not like these two put together in this order." I usually ignore these suggestions. I present my music, and then the audience reacts. If they like it, they stay. If they don't like it, they leave. There is the summation of the audience/performer relationship. I owe an audience a performance. That performance is mine to choose. A friend of mine attended a Santana concert recently, and was disappointed that Carlos did not play any of his 'hits'. He played beautifully, but my friend was still disappointed because their were no 'hits'. His favourite songs were not played. Is this not why God invented CD players? If you go to a show and pay money, it is your choice to do so. The performer owes you nothing more than a thank you for showing up. I would assume that people go to shows to hear music, not their hits, and not to yell at the performer or take their picture. These are concerts, not photo ops. I've never seen anyone take a photo at a classical concert. I will apologize to Mr. Goodluck for any insults that he takes from this post, and for butting in with my comments. I am using his letter to express views that support Fripp's position, and not to flame or insult Mr. Goodluck. In the end, I tire of hearing of how Fripp treats his audience. I tire of hearing various justifications for behaviour that Fripp was not happy with. I am responding because I am a musician (like many of us in ET) and I can readily sympathize with Fripp's reactions to these situations. From his postings, I have gathered that Fripp is demanding us to take responsibility for our actions during his performances, much like the way we demand him to be accountable for providing us with intelligent, thought-provoking music. Two-sided street and all that. In the end, a concert/show/whatever you want to call it is about performance, and listening to the performance. Then reacting (is this not why applause comes after the song ends?). All else (Yelling requests, recording bootlegs, taking photos, asking for autographs) is about fulfilling selfish needs. Thank you for your time. Kevin O'Reilly P.S. Any responses to this by private e-mail. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:26:55 -0700 From: Vinny C Subject: Bad idea of the day Thought of this at Projeckt 2 in Huntington, NY... ProJecKt InFiniTy: All former and current members of Crimson playing improv pieces at the same time on the same stage. The encore would consist of the entire band improvising a 10 minute version of "Lady of the Dancing Water", and the evening would end with "Mars". Don't know about you all, but the thought definitely scares me. VC -- "At paranoia's poison door, 21st century schizoid man." -King Crimson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:32:46 EDT From: Hocow Subject: Not a Fan Thread To All The Ex Fans You can be a Crim fan and not like P2. It was never supposed to be King Crimson. That's why its called ProjeKCt 2. Its Bob and Trey stretching out and trying new effects. How serious can you take this when the band's singer/guitarist is playing electronic drums? The guys are experamenting and having a little fun. Its nice that they've opened the door of the garage to let us watch them play. This could just as easily be being done at Adrian's house. The music has never been offered as new material by King Crimson and there is no reason to hold King Crimson responsible for it. If free form jamming doesn't interest you then don't participate. You will be missing out on an opportunity to hear more RF soloing than has been done in 20 years because the tight structure of the real band doesn't accomodate RF taking long solos. While I have enjoyed P2 I can't wait for some written material myself. IMHO while the current personnel has better chops than any previous lineup their improv does not achieve the melodic flow of the 70's band. Their strength (and I am throwing in the Discipline era with the double trio) has been written material although they apparently are more preoccupied with improving their improv side. I still don't see much useful material being transferred from P2 to KC. A recent post asked if BLUE was a ProjeKCt. I think the areas Tony and Bill are exploring in rythmic contrasts could easily show up with the whole band. Anyway, you don't have to like all of it to still be a fan. The same goes for the archive releases. If you've got enough don't buy any more. Myself I'd much rather have classic concert CD's between studio CD's than years of silence. Hang in there, Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:35:42 -0500 From: "Ott, John" Subject: Matt the Flash Monster, Gates, Tokyo Tapes, P2 To Matt Goodluck: You take a photo when you know it's not allowed, Fripp asks you why and all you do is shrug your shoulders. Then you run away when security is alerted. Then in ET you offer an apology for your "petty crime" and expect an apology from Fripp for what he did to you? After you could not even justify your actions to the man in person? What exactly did he do to you Matt? Oh, he embarrassed you. Poor baby. Get over it. Now on to some music: Just got "The Gates of Paradise" I have been both "Blessing of Tears" and "That which passes" in my computer at work as background at work. Can't do that with GOP. "The Outer Darkness" is too dark and disturbing for that. But it works as contrast to "Pie Jesu" and "Sometimes God Hides" and I get the Sense that RF intended. Also picked up the Tokyo Tapes. This is a live show with Steve Hackett, Julian Colbeck, Chester Thompson, and Crim Alumni Ian McDonald and John Wetton. The Material is Genesis Revisted with some solo Hackett songs. Also an acoustic "Heat of the Moment" and John's "Battlelines". Also two of Ian's Crimson compositions "The Court of the Crimson King" and "I talk to the Wind" John seemed to struggle with the Vocal for TCOTCK. But otherwise sounded great. The playing is fantastic. Ian sounds great. I got it at www.the-artist-shop.com. (Thanks Gary) I also don't understand the complaints about the P2 album. I don't care that is not Crimson or structured song writing. I like the groove. If the fractals of KC keep coming up with great stuff like this. I say keep it up. later John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:55:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Flashophobia someone wrote: "But (here is my point) why does everybody on this list seem to think its fine that Fripp walk off the stage when someone takes a picture? Why is it OK that Fripp punishes the entire crowd because of one person? Would it seem more reasonable to have security escort the person out and continue the show. Pardon me if I say this, but it seems rather childish and selfish to walk off on everyone because of one person." I'd point out to this person that, from reports of the show in question, a flashbullb had gone off previously during the set, prompting a short 'walkoff' by Fripp, after which he resumed playing with the band. It was a *second* flash from the audience that prompted the final 'punishment' of the audience, i.e., depriving them of an encore. Depriving the audience of an encore is a not-uncommon means of showing displeasure, btw. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:14:17 PDT From: "Matt D" Subject: Fripp on MTV..... a hallucination? This sunday while looking for something to watch on TV i stopped on MTV. It was 10 to 7 and MTV news was on. There was a story about Hendrix. Then to my surprise a picture of Fripp was on the screen. At this point i thought i had mistakenly ingested some hallucinagenic drugs, but to my surprise it WAS Fripp. The news bit began with a news person of MTV mentioning something like 'A guitarist that inspired Hendrix, Robert Fripp has a project now..'. It went on to mention Projekct 2 as 'a group who's recording says nothing about there live performance' and mentioned something like 'a post techno dance band'..'with Adrian Belew, who normally plays guitar, on drums'. It really didn't mention much about the music nor the name of the disc, nor showed a clip or sample of the music. But i was quite shocked that they even mentioned anything to do with Fripp's music. Perhaps a King Crimson Rockumentary? I doubt it! Also i am curious if anyone knows much about Bob Mueller. I absolutely love his drumming on both Trey Gunn discs. Anyone know of any other recordings he is on and his set-up? Well keep Thraking... Matt Deibert ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:21:14 -0400 From: "Stephen J. Leinbach" Subject: Absent Lovers Playback I was looking over the ET site the other day and noticed that there will be a "playback" in Boston for the new release of Absent Lovers. What exactly does this mean? Will this be a performance or merely an appearance? Thanks, Steve Leinbach ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:41:05 -0500 From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (Grant Colburn) Subject: Response to Photo Takin' Matt Regarding Matt's open letter to Fripp in #494. Sorry to burst your bubble but guess what..... Fripp can do whatever he wants. The only way Fripp will actually believe his behavior is unacceptable is if he sees a marked decline in his album sales and live playing profits that can be attributed directly to people not supporting him due to not being allowed to photograph or tape him live. The only thing Fripp is responsible for is putting on great shows and recording great music. You may think his being in the public eye makes him HAVE to accept certain things but obviously it doesn't. The bottom line is you either like his playing and music or you don't. If you do then you participate in it HIS way. I for one greatly enjoy his music so it seems a small courtesy to 'play the game' the way Fripp wishes. *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* Grant Colburn Graphic Nature http://www.angelfire.com/ga/graphnat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:42:57 -0400 From: David Todd Subject: Re: ET #495: Fripp Flash, and other >From: Eb >Guess what? This is ROCK 'N' ROLL, not a professor giving a >lecture. Maybe the problem with many of KC's fans is that So why are you taking pictures? Rock and Roll is typically played on sonic medium. Perhaps I can put it more viscerally: You are in a dimly lit bedroom with your lover, who is staring passionately into your eyes while your do your best to help achieve the heights of ecstasy, just before which you pull out an instamatic and take a flash picture of your lovers face. ------ >From: Chris Calabrese >Subject: Crimson Fans are too tense. Lighten Up! >other people would do, whether that be me dancing, >headbanging, screaming, taking pictures, recording the show, >moshing, or crowd surfing. Well maybe not moshing or crowd According to a friend who saw the KC show in Boston a number of years ago, the people behind him were chatting about life in general, loud enough to obscure the quieter parts of the show. In general, when I go out to shows, it's to hear the players, not the audience. After all, if I want to hear crowds, I can record them from baseball games on TV, or down to a local street performance. Much cheaper that way, even if I make a donation to the hat of the street performer. Mind you, I am not expecting the crowd to be as quiet as church mice, I certainly make comments to my friends about the music and the musicians. But how about not randomly screaming? Some of us take a little longer to get stimulated enough to emote in such a manner... >From: Ken Lac >As was the material on "Discipline". Fripp sites performing >before recording as a major reason for that album's >successes, and the following two record's failures (relative >failures, in my view). Interesting. Thanks for the info. -------- With all these little lines, I wonder if I am going on too long... -------- Actually, I think Monsieur Fripp would be properly horrified if his fans beat someone up on his behalf. Having not been to KC or Projkct shows, I can't say anything about signage. All the concert tickets I have ever bought specifically prohibited cameras and recording devices. I always assumed this was to protect the financial interests of the promoter and artists. Never the less, what does the artist have to do to get the point across? My suggestion is that the MC or whoever introduces the band, should simply say "Please do not take flash photographs of the band at anytime during the performance, even if they are not playing. Some of the band members find being flashed very upsetting, and may react by leaving the stage. Thanks." Again, it's probably not that he dislikes it on principle or that he doesn't want his picture taken, it that the flash is very unpleasant. It is my understanding that most people find flashes a little surprising, so much so that the camera industry developed a xenon blinker to give people a chance to adjust to the impending big flash. My speculation is that Fripp's aim is to communicate to the audience via the music. And I gather he is very concerned with the stream of consciousness, so I would guess he goes back stage until his annoyance and displeasure have dissipated, and his thought stream has been restored. ------- I must say, after hearing the P2 disk, I was disappointed, but all the positive reviews suggest I should give it a chance. Thanks. -- Hacksaw = David Charles Todd GTE* = Hacksaw's Employer Hacksaw's Opinions != GTE*'s Opinions It's hard to (rec'' (e) ni'ze bee''ch) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:44:51 -0700 From: "Eric Harris" Subject: p2 and this list's general disdain There's nothing wrong with people voicing their opinions about the music represented on the ProjeKct Two release. What I don't like seeing are the posts saying that it shouldn't have been released at all. As a musician, I find this release fascinating. Especially when I think of the album in the terms of which it was intended. It is research and development for future King Crimson material. I guess what I'm getting at is this: You know that Fripp is going to go ahead with these sub-groups for this research and development idea. Would you rather all this was done in private and wait for an official release from King Crimson a year down the road, or would you like to hear where that future KC album came from. I think its a rare opportunity for fans to get a glimpse into the creative process involved in making a KC album and even, in some small way, become a part of the creative process itself. If Fripp and co. weren't interested in what people thought, they certainly wouldn't be releasing this material and playing these live shows. When it all comes down to it, if this doesn't appeal to you then you don't have to buy the ProjeKct releases, however the rest of us appreciate the opportunity to be a part of this process. [Attachment omitted, unknown MIME type or encoding (text/html)] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:50:16 +0300 (WET) From: Vadim Marmer Subject: eartbound-help needed during a couple of years without any result i`m trying to find 'Earthbound' on CD. i believe that this subject was discussed already here, but i`m new on ET, and to say the true, the only reason i`ve subscribed to that list is the hope, that you will help me to find 'Earthbound' (i`ll leave you than :-) ). so, my question is: does 'Earthbound' exist on CD? if the answer is yes, another one: is there any on-line site, that i can order 'Earthbound' from them? if it was not released on CD yet, does anybody know, when they are going to do so, and how could they not to release it? i heard 'Eartbound' only once on tape, and it was amazing. your help will be appreciated... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:22:43 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: The Demeanor Debate Continues In ET#495, Eb wrote: > Guess what? This is ROCK 'N' ROLL, not a professor giving > a lecture. Maybe the problem with many of KC's fans is > that they DO view a concert as an academic lecture! I > shudder at the very thought. Some of you have spent far > too many years at amphitheater rock shows with plush > seats, house lights and ushers. Wish I could get some of > you back into a club and make you remember (or discover??) > what's it like to stand within a sweaty, swarming mass of > excited people. You seem to suggest there is but one kind of pop music experience -- with normative expectations regardless of who's playing, and where, and why. Different people can have different and reasonable expectations of a common environment. And I argue that tours featuring more than one KC member generally play to only one set of expectations -- limiting the possibilities for a band and community that claim to experiment with them. I had no problem with the club scene during the LoG tour in 1981. There was no doubt as to what you could expect in such a situation: booze and smoke in back, a dance band in front, a dance floor between. Anyone who expected otherwise needed to open their eyes. And yet, the night I went to the Agora in Cleveland that summer to see them, there were clearly two different crowds: one that wanted to both dance and listen, and another which thought this was insufficiently reverent. The physical ugliness between the two was a weird and unpleasant counterpoint to the happy dance music on stage. Maybe the answer is to have both environments represented on a tour: part clubs, part theatre. You pays your money and you chooses your vibe. The band gets to sample and contrast both experiences continuously, and it can inform their playing and writing. My prob isn't that I go to too many rarefied events. My prob is that the possibility of having them consistently gets precluded by the demands that alcohol overconsumption and boorish behavior are presumed to be a priori conditions for pop music public performance. Perhaps Eb has the "musical fascism" argument turned around. In a society where the population proportion of heavy users of both tobacco and alcohol are rapidly heading towards the single digits -- and the music and its adherents continue to age -- expecting everyone to find the same delights in the pop-music cattle-call that they once did at 20 is unreasonable. If this community of musicians has two audiences, let there be two fora, and be done with it. If it plays clubs without Fripp, so be it. If it plays a theatre, leave your freakin' camera and 'tude at home. > I continue to find Fripp's flashphobia utterly > embarrassing, disgustingly uptight and diva-esque, but I'm > not really interested in debating this. OK, but let the discussion continue regardless. Question: Do musicians in the popular vein have to be exhibitionists? What if, for a variety of personal development reasons, you're simply not built that way? Presume for a moment that Fripp's response to stimuli like flash photography is symptomatic of some disability -- as real a disability as partial paralysis. If this is so, then some tough-love argument about "getting over it" is not only insensitive but fruitless. (I don't pretend to know what that disability might be, but say it's something significant and intractable.) If pop musicians have to be exhibitionists as well -- visual performers who are expected to give their bodies over to the performance experience as a common expectation of their audience -- then it strikes me that we're right off the top eliminating whole classes of people from enriching the musical experience ... people whose make-up precludes them from being exhibitionists. This would be an offensive argument if we decided that concept of exhibitionist-musician eliminated people with wheelchairs or guide dogs. (So much for Ray Charles and Teddy Pendergrass.) Why should it be any less offensive for a disability inside one's mind? If, for this reason, Fripp needs to avoid a specific stimuli -- and folks, we're talking about exactly ONE here -- then I say, what's the prob with giving him that consideration? Are these shutterbugs so close-minded or selfish that cutting him that tiny amount of slack is so painful? Sheesh, it's not like he's asking you to wear ashes and sackcloth. Along these lines, Michael Irish" offered this: > Before the Detroit concert, say one hour before, the > audience, all equipped with cameras, take photos of each > other, then hand them over to the Majestic staff. We'd > have the urge to flash out of our systems and Robert, > Adrian, and Trey can play to their hearts content. Amen to that. Besides, a Q&A session would clearly be welcome to the hard-core fans and small media. And Kenandsueb observed: > OK here is the deal with the guy who took the photos in > Philly (or anywhere else for that matter). Maybe he didn't > know he wasn't suppose to. While signs might have been > posted maybe he didn't read them! So post a few unavoidable signs, and have the opening announcement be really, really clear about the performance consequences of photography. How hard could this be, DGM? Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:10:12 -0500 From: "Eric and Nancy Thorson" Subject: Free-Form vs. Structured Crimson Hi, Talkers. A Couple of years ago, at the release of Thrak and B'boom, there was a lot of talk on ET about how we liked the new material, but we wished that Crimson would try to do more improvised material, as the 70's versions of King Crimson were famous for. Now, in response to disappointment at the fact that a record which is played by a group called "Projekct 2" and is explicitly described as "research and development" has more than an hour of improvised material on it, we have complaints coming from fans who desire more structure. I do think that another Crimson record, released as an official album on Virgin, like THRAK, is coming to us eventually, and will be comprised of mostly composed, structured material. However, we should not forget that Crimson is known for it's improvisational skills as well as being the "Thinking Man's Heavy Metal band." I think that one of the lesser-spoken reasons of fractalizing Crimson for a couple of years is to reclaim the legacy of powerful improv. ThrakAttack is disappointing if you think of it as an album, but it is really an extended play single of THRAK, with six possible middle sections. It was released in response to real desire on thhe part of the listeners to have a recording of free-form Crimson. This disc shows the band trying its hand at improvisation, but it is probably not as strong as the improv that the 73-74 Crimson was playing on The Great Deciever. The double-trio lineup was probably too unwieldy to learn imrovisation well. You can hear the members of Crimson "feeling out" for each other on much of ThrakAttack, without really connecting or responding to each other very often. Hopefully, the Projekcts are teaching the new band how to communicate like free- jazzers. I am sorry if some fans are apalled by the very notion of improvisation, but this is a strong part of the Crimson voice, and has been since day one. Check out Epitaph, for example. I, for one, am simply delighted at the alter-ego of Crimson presented in "Space Groove." Fripp's utter sincerity is masked behind the lounge/sci-fi persona here. It is refreshing. This record also holds some of his hottest soloing in a couple of years. (The double trio demands more restraint.) I affirm the group's freedom to follow their muse, and am delighted to be allowed to listen to it. At the small price of polish, they have given us something genuine to listen to. Eric J. Thorson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:32:26 -0700 From: spike Subject: P2 - no feeling? Hi there just a comment on a comment. >My friend, supposedly a guitarist, got a free ticket for >the P2 show in Philly. He WALKED OUT saying the music had >no feeling??? No feeling, is he nuts?!? The music had feeling from the moment it hit me in the chest and traveled through my heart and out through my back. The feeling as I understood it was pure enjoyment. Thanks Mr Robert (for twisting my mind), Adrian (love the drums), and Trey (you can rattle my cupboards any time). May there be a P2.1!!! I might add, it was the second loudest show that I have ever been to (second only to the Bears show in 1988 (I definitley lost some hearing there and now I never go to a concert without plugs)). take it easy, Spike -When you find the beat, hit it! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:00:36 -0500 From: "Jamison D. Leach" Subject: GIG REVIEW: The show in Albany Hey there folks. I don't know if anybody's contributed anything about the Albany show yet, but it blew me away. First of all, the tickets "sold out" before the show, which I hadn't expected. Having become a victim of my own poor planning, I waited with others to see if they'd let anybody else in. We finally succeeded a few minutes after it started. My only complaint was that the venue (Valentine's) didn't have a raised stage really, making it very hard to see the performers unless you were in the front. I finally jockeyed toward the front to witness P2 firsthand. Without beholding them directly, I swear you can't envision which instruments are responsible for which of the glorious sounds are heard. It was invigorating to see these guys having so much fun. Everyone there seemed to be having an excellent time, and the music was swinging. Adrian is an amazing multi-instrumentalist and I finally got to see Trey in his glory. So few well-known musicians have this much class----I mean, how many guitarists of Adrian's caliber would intentionally choose to play percussives when the guitar comes so naturally to them? An amazing show.....I just hope that more Projekcts are to come......... Jamison D. Leach ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:56:08 -0700 From: "karken e. wilson" Subject: GIG REVIEW: PROJEKT 2 !!! !!!!!W O W!!!!!...JUST SAW PROJEKT2, IN ALBANY, NEW YORK...VERY IMPRESSED...ADRIAN PAYED CLOSE ATTENTION TO BILL BRUFORD, FROM THE SOUNDS OF IT?!?IT ALSO SOUNDS LIKE FRIPP HAS FOUND HIS PERFECT PLAYING PARTNER IN TREY GUNN...THE SHOW WAS TRULY AMAZING I'M SO PLEASED TO FIND YOU PLAYING IN MY AREA...PLEASE...PLEASE...COME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO CATCH YOU ON THE DISCIPLINE, AND THRAKK SHOWS, IN THE ALBANY AREA IN THE PAST...THANX AGAIN FOR YOUR UNDYING EFFORTS...KEEP IT UP...KEN MILLER...P.S. WHEN DID YOU GET RID OF THE DUEL REELS...KEEPING UP WITH THE TECHNOLOGY I SEE... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:11:08 -0400 From: Chad Ossman Subject: GIG REVIEW: Projekct Two at Irving Plaza, 5/6/98 An anecdotal review of Projekct Twos first of two gigs at New York Citys Irving Plaza on 6 May 1998. How Bill Gates Got Me Front-Row Tickets Well, not really. But Sidewalk.com did advise gravitating towards stage left when attending a show at Irving Plaza. What good advice it was, for I found myself standing directly in front of the stage, literally at Robert Fripps feet (such a sycophant am I). Between Sidewalk.com and Ticketmaster.com, I came to this music through organizations founded on exploitation, oiled by deceit, riven with theft and fueled by greed (to recontextualize Fripp). I hope my tainted (and expensive) presence did not corrupt the event as would a recording device, a flash photograph or still more shouts of Bruford! and Bobby! Bobby Believe it or not, I actually wish I had not been so physically close to Robert. When I attended a Bottom Line Soundscapes concert last winter, I was struck by how little there was to see, and spent much of the time with eyes wide shut, pondering Roberts attitudes towards the artist/audient behavior relationship. The point of my presence, I realized, was not to eak minor enjoyment from fleeting facial expressions or occasional deft finger motions, but to witness spontaneous composition. At Irving Plaza, I found my eyes, and my ears along with them, distracted by Roberts operation of his equipment and foot pedals. His technique is certainly very interesting, but isnt the point. Eventually, I was able to settle into an equal appreciation of the technical and the artistic sides of Roberts playing. He seems to make a point of disassociating himself from the audience when playing and considering what to play next, leaving the eye contact until intermission and conclusion. A very noble, bold sacrifice, but as a side effect, it makes the other two guys a whole lot more fun to watch. The Other Two Guys Trey Gunn finally gets to step out in a Crimson context, after hiding his ego and playing a supporting role in two full-scale KC tours. For those in the know, his solo projects and tour prove him to be the real funk in the Thrak album, and now hes finally overtly sharing some spotlight. Nobody doubts Adrian Belew is brimming over with all sorts of talents, but sometimes his enthusiasm gets the better of him. Just as Thrakattack is replete with Adrian the Perpetual Motion Machine, his sledgehammer drumming in Projekct Two is talented but ingratiating. Odd that Robert has long and infamously sparred with Bill Bruford over the propriety of the drummers role in an ensemble but allows Adrian to saturate Projekct Two with percussive noise. Perhaps Roberts newfound leniency is due at least in part to the mysterious nature of improvisation. The Mysterious Nature of Improvisation Revealed In a sweaty, panting break between numbers, Adrian leaned over to Robert and asked Do you two want to start without me? to which he shrugged and responded I dont know what were doing! Demystifying, yes? At another moment, an elated Robert announced to Adrian I want to rock out, and then repeated to the crowd I want to rock out, you guys! We responded with enthusiasm. Enthusiasm Mid-way into the second set, Trey began triggering vocal samples with his Warr Guitar. The effect was really creepy and atmospheric, far more serious than the gothic fun that preceded it. Almost immediately, however, an unseen member of the audience shouted out Youre an idiot!, presumably towards the band. I detected no discernible reaction from Trey or Robert, but Im sure I saw Adrians face fall. Despite the heckling, this piece turned out to be the high point of the evening for me. More so than with any other number that night, Projekct Two achieved a real emotional context. The talking Warr Guitar was indeed very eerie, but it was mainly Treys impassioned (and thankfully extended) solo that leant the piece a bittersweet earnestness I dont know Ive heard in Crimson before. The Crimson Equation How will Projekct Two relate to the larger Crimson, if at all? The most popular way of describing the new music seems to be to equate it with jazz. But, other than experimenting with small group improvisation, is the jazz equation really appropriate? Invoking the jazz genre calls to mind particular instrumentation, styles, key heroes, and a complex history. I feel Projekct Two is better described as avant-garde rock. Merchandise How can anyone call Robert Fripp a bloodsucking money-grubber when we repeatedly and earnestly offering up our veins? I offered up 15 of mine for a copy of Space Groove after the show, entirely unable to resist taking home some kind of aural keepsake to forever associate with the experience. The merchandise table featured a cameo appearance by Tony Geballe, knowingly asking Do you have Native of the Rain? _____________________________ Chad Ossman co61 at columbia dot edu http://www.columbia.edu/~co61 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 02:32:58 -0400 From: "Stevenson, David A" Subject: GIG REVIEW: Valentine's---Albany, NY----5.8.98 I got a chance to see Project Two on Friday night, and got much more than I expected. First of all, I live near Valentine's, and I had never been there. Good beer, small, unventilated upstairs with a small corner riser for the stage. I was amazed at the interest in the show (due to a lack of much publicity-thankfully!). Many people waited until the show was started to buy whatever tickets the bar would sell. I would say that the crowd ended up being 350-400 people. The first set started with a real scorcher. Trey and Robert were trading off licks while Adrian went nuts on the V-drums. Trey seemed to stay toward the low end on this one. The second piece of the night sounded very similar to Vector I. The band sounded very tight on this one. Adrian was controlling the bass lines which allowed Trey and Robert a little more freedom with sounds and emotions. Robert seemed to have an affinity for some really beautiful piano related sounds Friday. I can't really describe the rest of the show in super detail. I can only say that the night was very relaxed, flowing and interactive (performer/space/fan). I feel that I got more than I expected out of the show due to the fact that I wasn't expecting a life change. Whoever comes to the shows will be sorely disappointed if they are expecting Crimson. What you will receive are three musical voices finding new stories to tell. Trey Gunn and Robert were very focused on each other the whole night, and Adrian's enthusiasm and inventiveness on the kit helped drive the ship. I thought the first set blew the second set away! Let me know your thoughts. The only description that I can give of Vroom is "cute". Thanks for coming to Albany, next to the Palace in 1999. My friend's girlfriend had a run in with Fripp in the bathroom. She said he was polite, but that's another story.... (Private E-mail only). Doctor D ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #496 ********************************